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Post by cloud9 on Feb 10, 2018 19:49:24 GMT
People just don't want to be wrong and argue because of it. Sad really. I love how your response to anyone who tries in engage in even polite discussion with you is mostly dismissal or derision.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 10, 2018 19:50:02 GMT
What a charming man.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 10, 2018 19:51:19 GMT
Personally, I think Solas is going to be pretty unambiguously evil in the next game. Ive never actually gone through Trespasser, so I'm not speaking from a position of total understanding. But as I understand, he doesn't even consider modern elves to be "his people", or even elves at all. The people he's trying to save is something far more ancient and much much different. I'm going to be disappointed if Solas is unambiguously evil in the next game since it'd mean they'd pretty much have done away with anything that makes him an interesting villain and character. Let me clear, I'm not saying that what he intends to do is not evil and that Solas is not a villain. What I'm saying is that his character is not devoid of humanity and that's what makes him a compelling character and an interesting villain. The following is based on my interpretation of Solas. He does not want to destroy the modern world but believes it to be necessary to make amends for destroying the old world even if it was with the best of intentions. It's implied that he is motivated by guilt. In his romance, he has the opportunity to be happy and abandon his plans but chooses to set aside his own chance at happiness to do what he believes is right. His goal is not genocide: that's the side effect of how he intends to bring back the old world. Does that mean it should not be considered genocide? No but it's not his end goal. He's not doing this out of spite, hatred or racism. In Trespasser, he acknowledges that the Inquisitor showed him different: that the modern people weren't like tranquils. That they were people. But even before, when when he awoke in a world that he considered to be inhabited by tranquils, he still showed compassion towards these people. He approves of helping people like the farmer whose husband was murdered and whose ring was stolen. They are inconsequential to the greater scheme of things - to his plans - but he still thinks of them as worthy of help and empathy. Even if he is not befriended or romanced, he maintains this compassion as, as far as I can recall, it remains his motivation for sabotaging the Qun in Trespasser. He also shows sadness over the people who have been used by him and died. I believe there's a remark by Cole that shows he grieved over Felassan's death (which he probably should and did feel worse about after realizing the guy had a point.) Again, I'm not saying that Solas is not a villain and that what he is attempting to do is not villainous but I feel making him unambiguously evil would rob his character of all the depth and complexity he had in Inquisition and Trespasser. We have a good enough reason to want to stop him: the consequences of his plan would wreck the world as we know it and result in a high death toll that would include us. We don't need him to become completely evil.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 19:51:56 GMT
Solas doesn't really fit the Loki/Set/Lucifer profile, character-wise or trope-wise. According to himself, maybe. I'm just speculating, I have no idea what the next game holds. I just don't think Solas will be painted in a very heroic, or even ambiguous, light. No, according to observations And I do. Because he was painted in sympathetic/ambiguous light both in main game and Trespasser. And there's a great deal made out of his relationship with Inquisitor, especially in case of friendship. They've lost way too much story time to set him up (with him being a follower and all the noticeable parallels between him and Inquisitor or other companions; and everything that was referring to him or his deeds throughout history) to just waste it all on portraying Solas as yet another bad dude.
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Post by vertigomez on Feb 10, 2018 19:58:48 GMT
Villains never think of themselves as villains. Even Solas thinks he's a better person than other villains because hey, he feels kinda bad about what he's doing and insists that he's not a monster even though he's doing something monstrous. To me, he's only "yet another bad dude" in the sense that Loghain and Meredith are - they have their reasons, they believe they're doing the right thing even if they're conflicted about it, but ultimately they've got to be stopped.
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Post by cloud9 on Feb 10, 2018 20:01:55 GMT
Personally, I think Solas is going to be pretty unambiguously evil in the next game. Ive never actually gone through Trespasser, so I'm not speaking from a position of total understanding. But as I understand, he doesn't even consider modern elves to be "his people", or even elves at all. The people he's trying to save is something far more ancient and much much different. And there's another thing I don't get about him. He keeps on saying the elves we're not his people, and they're descendants of ancient elves that look like him, and he said they're not elves? So what does he expect them to look like? Wow, the writing of this game is even dumber than I thought. I'm beginning to think that the writers are drinking leaded water.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 10, 2018 20:19:35 GMT
Villains never think of themselves as villains. I've said this before, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that Solas is an unreliable narrator. He spent an entire game lying to me, why should I trust him when he says he has good intentions? Because he says so? Because he aided me for selfish reasons? Because we played grab ass in a dream? He says the ancient elves were slaves. What even is a slave to a borderline anarchist, god of rebellion? His perspective is skewed. He's trying to bring back something that is long gone, and perhaps for good reason. He's Corypheus, but much more subtle. So no. Despite him being a good character, I do not trust Solas. Nor to I expect any ambiguity if he is made the villain.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 10, 2018 20:39:33 GMT
Villains never think of themselves as villains. I've said this before, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that Solas is an unreliable narrator. 1. He spent an entire game lying to me, why should I trust him when he says he has good intentions? Because he says so? Because he aided me for selfish reasons? Because we played grab ass in a dream? 2. He says the ancient elves were slaves. What even is a slave to a borderline anarchist, god of rebellion? His perspective is skewed. He's trying to bring back something that is long gone, and perhaps for good reason. He's Corypheus, but much more subtle. So no. Despite him being a good character, I do not trust Solas. Nor to I expect any ambiguity if he is made the villain. 1. The reason I'm inclined to believe him is because he has no real reason to lie about in Trespasser: he's verbally burning bridges, so to speak, by revealing his intent and what the devastating consequences of said intent. 2. One reason for why I'm inclined to believe him is because I read The Masked Empire and if I remember correctly, the group comes across elvhen corpses that died whilst in uthenera. These elves were nobility and were murdered in their sleep by their servants because of grievances and for purposes of revenge. Another reason is that slavery was not exactly an uncommon practice in old cultures from real history and has not, to my memory at least, been portrayed as having been uncommon in Thedas' history either. I also believe but cannot confirm at the moment that Felassan corroborates Solas' claims about ancient Arlathan in the same book but until I locate it and the passage, I won't say that for sure.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 20:46:47 GMT
Villains never think of themselves as villains. I've said this before, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that Solas is an unreliable narrator. He spent an entire game lying to me, why should I trust him when he says he has good intentions? Because he says so? Because he aided me for selfish reasons? Because we played grab ass in a dream? Technically he never lies to you that much, merely omits some things. Also - when does he plays grab ass in a dream? If your intention is to fairly assess the character, it'd be prudent to try and not make things up. And I'm fairly sure that most people assess character not just by what he says, but what he does and there's a ton of times when he does or approves of things that speak of someone who is way more complex than an unsympathetic, delusional liar. Whether his perspective is skewed or not, he's led a rebellion of slaves because he believed they should be free, thus showing that he cares about the fate of the downtrodden. And yeah, not only he says that there were slaves in Elvenhan. We have records in Trespasser that undeniably prove that - not written by anyone associated with Solas. In fact they can be found in a library full of official propaganda and records that were either pre-approved or not objected to by elven gods. So slavery in Elvenhan? Fact.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 10, 2018 20:50:42 GMT
Here it is:
"From what little survives among the Dalish, it was." Felassan sighed. "Take the richest district of Val Royeaux, and add the magic that was part of our everyday life. Every statue fountain could speak through the water that poured from her mouth. Every column glowed with runes that the fools in Tevinter copied by rote like children tacing letters. When night fell, the roads were lit by stones like these, bright enough to find your way safely, but soft enough that you could still see the stars."
"I can only imagine."
"Can you?" Felassan looked over sharply. "Can you, truly? Then tell me, da'len, who scrubbed the floors?"
She blinked. "I... if the stone is enchanted, then... perhaps it cleans itself. Or if our people had golems, like the dwarvces..."
"We were an empire," Felassan said again, and this she heard the anger in his voice. "It was not the Golden City. It was not the peaceful afterlife of this Maker the humans have made for themselves. Take the richest district of Val Royeaux, and tell me how many fools are scheming against each other at every ball? How many servants are flogged for improperly arranging the silverware?"
"We were the nobles." It hit Briala like a blow. She remembered a slow trickle of blood winding down the spot where she had hidden in the reading room of Celene's childhood estate, where her parents had died on the orders of Lady Mantillon.
"We were everyone. There were no humans, no dwarves, no race but the elves. Every atrocity you seek to avenge for your broken people in their alienages, elven nobles committed upon their elven servants." - The Masked Empire (Paperback). P. 280-281.
"That's a lovely story, Mihris." Felassan smiled. "It may also have been a place where they cooked. Or just as likely, a place for the dreamers to be protected while they slept, rather than trusting the servants not to kill them in their beds." - The Masked Empire (Paperback). P. 317
Note: Felassan is all but directly stated to be an ancient elf. I thought I should include this tidbit for those that don't know.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 10, 2018 20:52:25 GMT
Yes, well, How about this?
I'll give him the benefit of the doubt when his ultimate goal doesn't involve the deaths of millions.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 10, 2018 21:08:03 GMT
"We were everyone. There were no humans, no dwarves, no race but the elves." Hehe. This certainly supports the crackpot 'everyone were elves once' theory I have.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 10, 2018 23:10:00 GMT
Personally, I think Solas is going to be pretty unambiguously evil in the next game. Solas is pretty unambiguously evil in Trespasser as it is. He plays mopey about it, but it's mostly hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed "god" who thinks he's above everyone else.
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 10, 2018 23:14:30 GMT
He plays mopey about it, but it's mostly hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed "god" who thinks he's above everyone else. I personally wouldn't call him "self proclaimed". I think Solas, and all the elven gods are, for all intents and purposes, gods. Provided you think of them as pagan "gods", and not the Judaeo-christian "God". I have my doubts, but it would be interesting to play a game in which you, as the protagonist, must basically become a "god" yourself in order to match the power of The Dread Wolf.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 10, 2018 23:20:53 GMT
I personally wouldn't call him "self proclaimed". I think Solas, and all the elven gods are, for all intents and purposes, gods. Provided you think of them as pagan "gods", and not the Judaeo-christian "God". Whether he deserves to be seen as such for the power he wields or not, he is self-proclaimed because he's still just a person, but sees himself as being above all the "normal people". In terms of anything more than scale, he's no more a "god" than Corfishystix...or Saarath. Or, heck, Orsino.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 10, 2018 23:44:23 GMT
Solas is pretty unambiguously evil in Trespasser as it is. He plays mopey about it, but it's mostly hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed "god" who thinks he's above everyone else. Wait, when does Solas proclaim himself to be a god? As far as I can remember he tries to emphasizes the opposite about the Evanuris (and by extension, himself) In Inquisition, he has a conversation with the Inquisitor in which he states that he does not believe that the Evanuris were gods and in Trespasser, he debunks their divinity by explaining how they ended up being viewed as such.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 11, 2018 0:10:01 GMT
Solas is pretty unambiguously evil in Trespasser as it is. He plays mopey about it, but it's mostly hypocrisy from a self-proclaimed "god" who thinks he's above everyone else. Wait, when does Solas proclaim himself to be a god? As far as I can remember he tries to emphasizes the opposite about the Evanuris (and by extension, himself) In Inquisition, he has a conversation with the Inquisitor in which he states that he does not believe that the Evanuris were gods and in Trespasser, he debunks their divinity by explaining how they ended up being viewed as such. He also debunked it during the rebellion all those years ago, and we have ancient texts as proof. And those were written by followers Solas says still gave him too much credit than he deserves. He tells Cassandra that Evanuris (thus himself) are gods only if one expands the definition of god to the point of absurdity.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 11, 2018 0:10:48 GMT
Wait, when does Solas proclaim himself to be a god? As far as I can remember he tries to emphasizes the opposite about the Evanuris (and by extension, himself) Its in his actions and his attitudes. His "might makes right" justification for why he's right and everyone else is wrong and his deserving to get to reshape the world simply because he can. He doesn't invoke the word itself like Corfishystix, but he still feels it's his right to choose the future of millions (or, for that matter, choose to end that future). What is that if not claiming godhood?
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Post by TheodoricFriede on Feb 11, 2018 0:11:24 GMT
He tells Cassandra that Evanuris (thus himself) are gods only if one expands the definition of god to the point of absurdity. Unreliable narrator. God of Rebellion. Different perspective.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 11, 2018 0:18:33 GMT
He tells Cassandra that Evanuris (thus himself) are gods only if one expands the definition of god to the point of absurdity. Unreliable narrator. God of Rebellion. Different perspective. Missing the point. At this moment we're discussing whether Solas self-declared himself a god. He didn't, and doesn't believe either he or Evanuris are gods, regardless whether they declared themselves (and him) gods or not.
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Post by shechinah on Feb 11, 2018 0:20:48 GMT
Wait, when does Solas proclaim himself to be a god? As far as I can remember he tries to emphasizes the opposite about the Evanuris (and by extension, himself) Its in his actions and his attitudes. His "might makes right" justification for why he's right and everyone else is wrong and his deserving to get to reshape the world simply because he can. He doesn't invoke the word itself like Corfishystix, but he still feels it's his right to choose the future of millions (or, for that matter, choose to end that future). What is that if not claiming godhood? To proclaim is to announce with words either verbally or in writing. To self-proclaim is to do so about oneself. You think that Solas acts as if he is a god because of his actions and attitude but unless he actually expresses that he considers himself a god then he cannot be a self-proclaimed god.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 11, 2018 0:51:35 GMT
Wait, when does Solas proclaim himself to be a god? As far as I can remember he tries to emphasizes the opposite about the Evanuris (and by extension, himself) Its in his actions and his attitudes. His "might makes right" justification for why he's right and everyone else is wrong and his deserving to get to reshape the world simply because he can. He doesn't invoke the word itself like Corfishystix, but he still feels it's his right to choose the future of millions (or, for that matter, choose to end that future). What is that if not claiming godhood? Making large, sweeping decisions that can affect masses doesn't yet make anyone a god. Presidents aren't gods. Generals aren't gods. In DA, especially in DAI, we're playing characters who decide to take on themselves a burden of making decisions that can affect millions - that doesn't yet makes them gods.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 11, 2018 0:55:27 GMT
Making large, sweeping decisions that can affect masses doesn't yet make anyone a god. Presidents aren't gods. Generals aren't gods. In DA, especially in DAI, we're playing characters who decide to take on themselves a burden of making decisions that can affect millions - that doesn't yet makes them gods. Right, those people aren't gods. That's why "self-proclaimed". Fen'Harel saying it is his right to make those choices, because he says its his right to make those choices, is putting himself on that pedestal.
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Post by midnight tea on Feb 11, 2018 1:17:22 GMT
Making large, sweeping decisions that can affect masses doesn't yet make anyone a god. Presidents aren't gods. Generals aren't gods. In DA, especially in DAI, we're playing characters who decide to take on themselves a burden of making decisions that can affect millions - that doesn't yet makes them gods. Right, those people aren't gods. That's why "self-proclaimed". Fen'Harel saying it is his right to make those choices, because he says its his right to make those choices, is putting himself on that pedestal. We've reached a word salad territory. That makes no sense at all. "Putting oneself on pedestal" doesn't mean anything close to 'self-proclaiming' oneself a god - just a person who, for one reason or another, thinks that they have to make a decision (also - I don't think Solas has anywhere said that 'it's his right' to decide). That doesn't even makes sense if you just wanted to say that in case of presidents or generals, they had to be appointed to position to make a decision. But if that's the case, and if we think of 'god' as a position one is appointed to, then Solas HAD been appointed to position of someone who decides at least twice already - first in Elvehnan, when powers that be decided that he's Evanuris, and then as leader of the rebellion.
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Post by Lazarillo on Feb 11, 2018 1:27:32 GMT
We've reached a word salad territory. That makes no sense at all. "Putting oneself on pedestal" doesn't mean anything close to 'self-proclaiming' oneself a god - just a person who, for one reason or another, thinks that they have to make a decision (also - I don't think Solas has anywhere said that 'it's his right' to decide). Thinks that he has the right to make that decision. Has he asked the people of Thedas? Has he asked anyone? Or has he unilaterally declared that the reality of the worlds is to be as he declares? If someone decides the strategy for a war, they are a general. If someone decides the fate of a nation, they are a president. Self-proclaimed, or otherwise. If someone decides the shape of reality, then what would you call that? And when you appoint yourself, you are self-proclaimed. Fen'Harel has decided for himself that he will dictate the face of reality for everyone else. Nobody asked him to do that. Nobody told him he had to do that. It's Fen'Harel declaring what shall be, because as far as he's concerned, only Fen'Harel has the right to decide that. And only Fen'Harel has the right because only Fen'Harel can choose who does.
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