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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 23:27:43 GMT
Without EDI, you would only have 2 companions for half of the game... one soldier (James) and one biotic (Liara). No tech. Anyone playing a biotic heavy Shepard would probably want a little tech support (it's not about my disliking it). As I said, you'd probably have felt better if that 3rd early techie squad mate was an organic. Instead of the hologram taking over the platform, Samantha is the techie. Have holo-edi handle the comms. But then the clown wouldn't be able to bake a cake for the edibot. Sure... I don't care. I'm just saying that a third squad mate with tech powers was needed. They didn't have anyone to bring forward from either ME1 or ME2 who couldn't possible be dead other than Liara. They opted to go with a synthetic. I'm guessing, but I think all the people who just "loved" Legion to bits in ME2 probably influenced that choice. Don't know... you'd have to ask Bioware that one.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 10, 2017 23:37:27 GMT
Sure... I don't care. I'm just saying that a third squad mate with tech powers was needed. They didn't have anyone to bring forward from either ME1 or ME2 who couldn't possible be dead other than Liara. They opted to go with a synthetic. I'm guessing, but I think all the people who just "loved" Legion to bits probably influenced that choice. Don't know... you'd have to ask Bioware that one. I'm guessing they had the robot for a squadmate to save money instead of hiring another voice for a new character to be the techie. There was no need for James. No need to have Ashley/Kaidan injured. They stay on the Normandy for the whole game.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2017 23:45:02 GMT
Sure... I don't care. I'm just saying that a third squad mate with tech powers was needed. They didn't have anyone to bring forward from either ME1 or ME2 who couldn't possible be dead other than Liara. They opted to go with a synthetic. I'm guessing, but I think all the people who just "loved" Legion to bits probably influenced that choice. Don't know... you'd have to ask Bioware that one. I'm guessing they had the robot for a squadmate to save money instead of hiring another voice for a new character to be the techie. There was no need for James. No need to have Ashley/Kaidan injured. They stay on the Normandy for the whole game. ... and while we're at it... They could have written an entirely different story where, after dealing with the Collectors, Shepard just "goes pirate" and neither the Alliance nor Cerberus hears from him/her again. To get around an additional VA, they could have used Samantha or they could also have the Alliance disconnect EDI entirely and just left Joker to fly the ship the same way he did in ME1 or they could have cut dialogue in any number of other places. I still think they added a robot on the team because people expressed a liking towards Legion having been a squad mate. They couldn't use Legion because he could be dead, so they recruited EDI for the position instead.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 11, 2017 0:41:00 GMT
The best time to complete the turian bomb mission is right before Cronos How??? I left it but the bomb detonated and killed EVE and thousands of Krogan after the Coup.
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Post by themikefest on Feb 11, 2017 0:44:07 GMT
How??? I left it but the bomb detonated and killed EVE and thousands of Krogan after the Coup. Simple Complete the Rachni mission. Complete genophage. Just before going to Thessia, rescue the turians. Complete Thessia and Sanctuary. Now go disarm that bomb and hear an extra line of dialogue from Hackett.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 11, 2017 4:31:57 GMT
I don't care about EDI in ME3 because I didn't like the evolutions of the synthetic characters in ME3. Making EDI and Joker fall in love and making every Geth an individual kind of cheapens (to me) the idea that they could have been alive while still be different from organic life. So in a way EDI bothers me because she is synthetic but not because I am "racist" towards them. I don't know about the geth individuality thing. Legion was clearly an individual in ME2 regardless of what was presented to us. As for their individuality, I think we don't really know the full ramifications. It could be that they are still networked. We just don't know. But even if they aren't it was beneficial to the geth to not require being networked. That is, they were fine that way in one way but in a very real sense they were always in danger of having their intelligence seriously depleted when large portions of the network went offline. The Reaper upgrade prevents that and allows them to continue. EDI, too, made choices based on her companions. Whether or not she romances Joker, I can see why she would want to be more "human". First, she was programmed to protect her crew. In researching the best ways to do that she's discovered some admirable trains among humans that she wanted to emulate. Even before she gained control of Eva Core's body she still liked to make jokes and look out for her crew. Those are traits I'd ascribe to an emotional being. Other examples of AI we've seen don't seem to have had emotions but EDI did. Therefore, she wants to become more like the emotional beings around her. Perhaps had she been with a turian crew she would have emulated them and placed duty above all. If asari, god only knows. If salarian, maybe research and espionage. But she was with humans and we're how we are so that's what she wanted to be.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 11, 2017 4:37:16 GMT
I'm guessing they had the robot for a squadmate to save money instead of hiring another voice for a new character to be the techie. There was no need for James. No need to have Ashley/Kaidan injured. They stay on the Normandy for the whole game. ... and while we're at it... They could have written an entirely different story where, after dealing with the Collectors, Shepard just "goes pirate" and neither the Alliance nor Cerberus hears from him/her again. To get around an additional VA, they could have used Samantha or they could also have the Alliance disconnect EDI entirely and just left Joker to fly the ship the same way he did in ME1 or they could have cut dialogue in any number of other places. I still think they added a robot on the team because people expressed a liking towards Legion having been a squad mate. They couldn't use Legion because he could be dead, so they recruited EDI for the position instead. Some people have inferred that "going pirate" was potentially the original plan for ME3. Shepard couldn't stay with Cerberus but similarly found it unworkable to spend, say, 6 months in prison while the Reapers were coming. Tbh, Shepard could have done a lot of the same things, perhaps even "recruiting" the Alliance to the cause of fighting the Reapers, without wasting time on Earth trying to convince idiots who should trust them implicitly rather than ask what to do literally as the Reapers are dropping into Earth's atmosphere. In any case, I liked EDI. I thought she brought a bit of humor and it was interesting to see her develop.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 5:59:53 GMT
... and while we're at it... They could have written an entirely different story where, after dealing with the Collectors, Shepard just "goes pirate" and neither the Alliance nor Cerberus hears from him/her again. To get around an additional VA, they could have used Samantha or they could also have the Alliance disconnect EDI entirely and just left Joker to fly the ship the same way he did in ME1 or they could have cut dialogue in any number of other places. I still think they added a robot on the team because people expressed a liking towards Legion having been a squad mate. They couldn't use Legion because he could be dead, so they recruited EDI for the position instead. Some people have inferred that "going pirate" was potentially the original plan for ME3. Shepard couldn't stay with Cerberus but similarly found it unworkable to spend, say, 6 months in prison while the Reapers were coming. Tbh, Shepard could have done a lot of the same things, perhaps even "recruiting" the Alliance to the cause of fighting the Reapers, without wasting time on Earth trying to convince idiots who should trust them implicitly rather than ask what to do literally as the Reapers are dropping into Earth's atmosphere. In any case, I liked EDI. I thought she brought a bit of humor and it was interesting to see her develop. That does seem possible (given the conversation with Jack)... and I would have loved it if he/she had of truly stolen the ship and gone completely rogue.
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Post by rafmekerk on Feb 11, 2017 6:11:21 GMT
I see why it could not be enough to have 3 companions for 1/2 game, but consider that to only have such few squadmates it would require a very specific playthrough (killing Tali, Garrus and the other "new" previous ME2 companion). But I can see why you dislike this idea. I don't care about EDI in ME3 because I didn't like the evolutions of the synthetic characters in ME3. Making EDI and Joker fall in love and making every Geth an individual kind of cheapens (to me) the idea that they could have been alive while still be different from organic life. So in a way EDI bothers me because she is synthetic but not because I am "racist" towards them. I disagree with the genophage part. It works that way only if you kill Wrex and don't save Maelon's data in ME2, then and only then you can actually make Mordin change his mind. If you decide to take any other combination of these two choices (so the other 3 out of 4 possibilities) the game makes you feel like a monster if you don't trust Eve and/or Wrex to be able to change the krogan's culture and decide to not cure the genophage. Similarly in the Geth case, excluding the peace option, to me the game tries too hard to make the Geth the good guys (maybe in an untrustworthy way as you suggest, but still...). Without EDI, you would only have 2 companions for half of the game... one soldier (James) and one biotic (Liara). No tech. Anyone playing a biotic heavy Shepard would probably want a little tech support (it's not about my disliking it). As I said, you'd probably have felt better if that 3rd early techie squad mate was an organic. If you dislike Krogan... why are you not shooting Wrex when he openly threatens you in ME1 (or at least letting Ashley shoot him for you) or even why recruit him at all? Also, why on earth would you ever save Maelon's data? I don't think it's a bad thing that the dialogue changes in accordance with the choices you do make in the earlier games. I understand that 2 companion could potentially be hard without tech powers (or without Vega), but that would make your previous decisions even more important and you would have to live with the consequences. Plus I don't think you really need 3 squadmates time beat this fairly easy game, but that's my opinion. If you are talking about what my Shephards do, then yes, usually they kill Wrex (or not recruit him at all). Not all of them destroy Maelon's data though, I/they dislike to destroy research and information, but that's my problem. The real problem isn't that the dialogue changes (good thing) but that it's heavily in favour of one specific decision, throwing away the moral dilemma. If, say, Mordin remained in favor of the genophage and you would have been forced to kill him to cure it, it would have been a more difficult decisions.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 11, 2017 6:15:53 GMT
If you are talking about what my Shephards do, then yes, usually they kill Wrex (or not recruit him at all). Not all of them destroy Maelon's data though, I/they dislike to destroy research and information, but that's my problem. The real problem isn't that the dialogue changes (good thing) but that it's heavily in favour of one specific decision, throwing away the moral dilemma. If, say, Mordin remained in favor of the genophage and you would have been forced to kill him to cure it, it would have been a more difficult decisions. Now that could have been a very interesting dilemma. Mordin and Shepard could remain consistent with whatever viewpoints they held over the course of the game. If Shepard was always pro-genophage, then he could have stayed that way and been in line with Mordin (in ME2, as well, where Paragon Shepard otherwise makes Mordin out to be a terrible person for his work on the genophage) when it came time to cure the genophage. If Shepard was anti-genophage, then they're at odds and Shepard kills Mordin to stop it. That would definitely be a case of prior decisions having an impact.
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Post by rafmekerk on Feb 11, 2017 6:22:35 GMT
I don't care about EDI in ME3 because I didn't like the evolutions of the synthetic characters in ME3. Making EDI and Joker fall in love and making every Geth an individual kind of cheapens (to me) the idea that they could have been alive while still be different from organic life. So in a way EDI bothers me because she is synthetic but not because I am "racist" towards them. I don't know about the geth individuality thing. Legion was clearly an individual in ME2 regardless of what was presented to us. As for their individuality, I think we don't really know the full ramifications. It could be that they are still networked. We just don't know. But even if they aren't it was beneficial to the geth to not require being networked. That is, they were fine that way in one way but in a very real sense they were always in danger of having their intelligence seriously depleted when large portions of the network went offline. The Reaper upgrade prevents that and allows them to continue. EDI, too, made choices based on her companions. Whether or not she romances Joker, I can see why she would want to be more "human". First, she was programmed to protect her crew. In researching the best ways to do that she's discovered some admirable trains among humans that she wanted to emulate. Even before she gained control of Eva Core's body she still liked to make jokes and look out for her crew. Those are traits I'd ascribe to an emotional being. Other examples of AI we've seen don't seem to have had emotions but EDI did. Therefore, she wants to become more like the emotional beings around her. Perhaps had she been with a turian crew she would have emulated them and placed duty above all. If asari, god only knows. If salarian, maybe research and espionage. But she was with humans and we're how we are so that's what she wanted to be. I don't know. I feel that including Reaper's tech in their evolution felt wrong to me. Wasn't there a line in ME2 in which Legion said that they shouldn't be using Reaper's tech to define their future or something like that? About EDI you are probably right. She wants to be an individual and an emotional one too (and she is), even in ME2. I probably just find the romance between her and Joker creepy because I have watched the movie "Her" too much.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 11, 2017 6:32:56 GMT
I don't know. I feel that including Reaper's tech in their evolution felt wrong to me. Wasn't there a line in ME2 in which Legion said that they shouldn't be using Reaper's tech to define their future or something like that? About EDI you are probably right. She wants to be an individual and an emotional one too (and she is), even in ME2. I probably just find the romance between her and Joker creepy because I have watched the movie "Her" too much. As an FYI, we're on the verge of having sexbots in real life. It's only a matter of time before they have "True AI". Most likely way before ME's timeline has it. I don't recall the line in question in ME2. I do know that the geth consensus was that they didn't want to have two divergent factions. They simply didn't know how to handle it: destroy it (original idea) or rewrite them. Even if they don't want to Reaper's to define their future in the sense that the Reapers control it (which is what they were doing) that doesn't mean they wouldn't be willing to take their tech and run. Still, I can see where you were coming from with the geth. They were a unique form of "life" as they were. There was no need to alter them. I suspect the reason for it was to make them a more palatable choice to humans who might see any kind of "hive mind" (not exactly what it was but similar) as lesser and therefore choose not to save them. Given them the upgrades made people more sympathetic to them. I don't entirely have a good feeling about the geth. However, some of the actions taken by the quarian admirals are downright idiotic and it sometimes makes me feel less than friendly toward them. Their history confirms that the quarians were and continued to be the "bad guys" when it came to how they handled the geth. (Side issue, I know.)
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Post by rafmekerk on Feb 11, 2017 6:51:39 GMT
I don't know. I feel that including Reaper's tech in their evolution felt wrong to me. Wasn't there a line in ME2 in which Legion said that they shouldn't be using Reaper's tech to define their future or something like that? About EDI you are probably right. She wants to be an individual and an emotional one too (and she is), even in ME2. I probably just find the romance between her and Joker creepy because I have watched the movie "Her" too much. As an FYI, we're on the verge of having sexbots in real life. It's only a matter of time before they have "True AI". Most likely way before ME's timeline has it. I don't recall the line in question in ME2. I do know that the geth consensus was that they didn't want to have two divergent factions. They simply didn't know how to handle it: destroy it (original idea) or rewrite them. Even if they don't want to Reaper's to define their future in the sense that the Reapers control it (which is what they were doing) that doesn't mean they wouldn't be willing to take their tech and run. Still, I can see where you were coming from with the geth. They were a unique form of "life" as they were. There was no need to alter them. I suspect the reason for it was to make them a more palatable choice to humans who might see any kind of "hive mind" (not exactly what it was but similar) as lesser and therefore choose not to save them. Given them the upgrades made people more sympathetic to them. I don't entirely have a good feeling about the geth. However, some of the actions taken by the quarian admirals are downright idiotic and it sometimes makes me feel less than friendly toward them. Their history confirms that the quarians were and continued to be the "bad guys" when it came to how they handled the geth. (Side issue, I know.) Somehow it doesn't surprise me that we are on the verge of having sexbots... I too feel that the quarian decisions were idiotic (but understandable). Prior to their ME3 "take Rannoch back" mission though I wouldn't say that they were the "bad guys", while I think it's more difficult to say the same thing about the geth (did they really have to kill so many quarians to not be destroyed by them?), but that is surely up to debate. I just feel that ME3 tried to hard to make the geth the victims, at least at first sight.
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 11, 2017 7:32:56 GMT
I too feel that the quarian decisions were idiotic (but understandable). Prior to their ME3 "take Rannoch back" mission though I wouldn't say that they were the "bad guys", while I think it's more difficult to say the same thing about the geth (did they really have to kill so many quarians to not be destroyed by them?), but that is surely up to debate. I just feel that ME3 tried to hard to make the geth the victims, at least at first sight. I was specifically thinking of the time of the Morning War when the quarians started destroying the geth, even if unarmed or surrendered. The geth, not being emotional, fought and killed until the threat was ended - which happened when the quarians fled the system. They took no emotional stance on the issue, instead looking at it logically. If the quarians aren't there then they can't be a threat. And since not all quarians were the enemy they had no need to completely annihilate them. As Legion said, they weren't sure what the implications would be of completely removing the quarians from existence so they made a choice not to do so. In contrast, the quarians have only ever wanted to destroy the geth completely. Tali was the only one who has diverged from that opinion and then only after meeting Legion, and even then only in relation to Legion. She cared about Legion but not the geth in general. That's why I consider the quarians to be the bad guys in regard to the geth. That said, I tend to feel sympathetic to the random quarians I encounter, like on the Citadel, Illium and Omega. Even the one dying civilian found on Rannoch (and his poor orphaned son). It's the admirals that rile up my negative feelings toward the quarians and I sometimes wish there were an option to turn them over to the geth in the same way Xen wants you to turn Legion over to her. Honestly, I only like Tali among the admirals. Even Koris is an ass for trying to get Tali exiled as a way of getting his political opinion pushed forward.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 7:36:33 GMT
Without EDI, you would only have 2 companions for half of the game... one soldier (James) and one biotic (Liara). No tech. Anyone playing a biotic heavy Shepard would probably want a little tech support (it's not about my disliking it). As I said, you'd probably have felt better if that 3rd early techie squad mate was an organic. If you dislike Krogan... why are you not shooting Wrex when he openly threatens you in ME1 (or at least letting Ashley shoot him for you) or even why recruit him at all? Also, why on earth would you ever save Maelon's data? I don't think it's a bad thing that the dialogue changes in accordance with the choices you do make in the earlier games. I understand that 2 companion could potentially be hard without tech powers (or without Vega), but that would make your previous decisions even more important and you would have to live with the consequences. Plus I don't think you really need 3 squadmates time beat this fairly easy game, but that's my opinion. If you are talking about what my Shephards do, then yes, usually they kill Wrex (or not recruit him at all). Not all of them destroy Maelon's data though, I/they dislike to destroy research and information, but that's my problem. The real problem isn't that the dialogue changes (good thing) but that it's heavily in favour of one specific decision, throwing away the moral dilemma. If, say, Mordin remained in favor of the genophage and you would have been forced to kill him to cure it, it would have been a more difficult decisions. Bioware, though, also has to consider players who are not at all skilled at shooter games. As for the latter, you seem to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth... first saying that the game came down too heavily being in favor of a cure and now saying it came down too heavily in favor of not curing it. It doesn't... the alignment of the moral decision is merely based on the player's previous decisions rather than being related to single P/R selection presented in a single dialogue wheel. A Shepard who see Krogan as overtly aggressive would likely kill Wrex (or allow Ashley to shoot him) when threatened and would have no interest in eventually helping the Krogan (which is the premise Shepard uses to convince Mordin to save the data). I certainly don't recall a dialogue option that says lets save the data just for posterity without having any intention of possibly using it in the future. To make it so you would have to shoot Mordin to cure the genophage just makes the whole situation completely implausible. If Mordin wasn't at all in favor of curing the genophage, he would never have leaked the information about the female krogan to Wrex/Wreav in the first place and you would not have been able to get him aboard your ship to help work on a cure at all. Therefore, he would not have been on Tuchanka with you at all and you would have had no opportunity to shoot him (and no opportunity at all to even promise a cure to Wrex/Wreav. The Krogran, therefore, would have simply not helped the Turians and your whole alliance would have fallen apart. (Not to mention that if you actually did shoot him, he'd be dead and unable to cure the genophage).
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Post by rafmekerk on Feb 11, 2017 9:18:34 GMT
I understand that 2 companion could potentially be hard without tech powers (or without Vega), but that would make your previous decisions even more important and you would have to live with the consequences. Plus I don't think you really need 3 squadmates time beat this fairly easy game, but that's my opinion. If you are talking about what my Shephards do, then yes, usually they kill Wrex (or not recruit him at all). Not all of them destroy Maelon's data though, I/they dislike to destroy research and information, but that's my problem. The real problem isn't that the dialogue changes (good thing) but that it's heavily in favour of one specific decision, throwing away the moral dilemma. If, say, Mordin remained in favor of the genophage and you would have been forced to kill him to cure it, it would have been a more difficult decisions. Bioware, though, also has to consider players who are not at all skilled at shooter games. As for the latter, you seem to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth... first saying that the game came down too heavily being in favor of a cure and now saying it came down too heavily in favor of not curing it. It doesn't... the alignment of the moral decision is merely based on the player's previous decisions rather than being related to single P/R selection presented in a single dialogue wheel. A Shepard who see Krogan as overtly aggressive would likely kill Wrex (or allow Ashley to shoot him) when threatened and would have no interest in eventually helping the Krogan (which is the premise Shepard uses to convince Mordin to save the data). I certainly don't recall a dialogue option that says lets save the data just for posterity without having any intention of possibly using it in the future. To make it so you would have to shoot Mordin to cure the genophage just makes the whole situation completely implausible. If Mordin wasn't at all in favor of curing the genophage, he would never have leaked the information about the female krogan to Wrex/Wreav in the first place and you would not have been able to get him aboard your ship to help work on a cure at all. Therefore, he would not have been on Tuchanka with you at all and you would have had no opportunity to shoot him (and no opportunity at all to even promise a cure to Wrex/Wreav. The Krogran, therefore, would have simply not helped the Turians and your whole alliance would have fallen apart. (Not to mention that if you actually did shoot him, he'd be dead and unable to cure the genophage). I unserstand that Bioware should consider all players, the ones that are good at shooting and the ones who aren't. My question though is, how many players would end up with only 2 squadmates? Is it so common to do the Suicide Mission and end up (without planning) with Garrus, Tali and the other ME2 companion (the one replacing EDI) dead? And even if there are a lot of players that unlucky they could have just make Vega a Sentinel and be done with it. Sorry, I probably should have been more clear in expressing my opinion. I think the game came down too heavily in favour of curing the genophage, not the other way around. I can see why you consider saving the data to be strange for a pro genophage Shepard and that's why I said it was just my/my Shepard decision (you can agree or disagree with my reasoning). I used this example just to show you that you could be in favour of the genophage and still have a resolution were the writers want to make you feel bad for your opinion (either because you saved Wrex or the data). About the whole kill Mordin/save the genophage idea, it could have been done in a reasonable way. They could have had Padok Wiks as the salarian that wanted to cure the genophage and Mordin as a shadow antagonist for the Tuchanka act. Padok would have developed the cure and at the Shroud there could have been a confrontation between the two where you would have to pick a side (kill Mordin and the cure will be spread or kill Padok Wiks and sabotage it).
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Post by opuspace on Feb 11, 2017 9:35:59 GMT
I too feel that the quarian decisions were idiotic (but understandable). Prior to their ME3 "take Rannoch back" mission though I wouldn't say that they were the "bad guys", while I think it's more difficult to say the same thing about the geth (did they really have to kill so many quarians to not be destroyed by them?), but that is surely up to debate. I just feel that ME3 tried to hard to make the geth the victims, at least at first sight. I was specifically thinking of the time of the Morning War when the quarians started destroying the geth, even if unarmed or surrendered. The geth, not being emotional, fought and killed until the threat was ended - which happened when the quarians fled the system. They took no emotional stance on the issue, instead looking at it logically. If the quarians aren't there then they can't be a threat. And since not all quarians were the enemy they had no need to completely annihilate them. As Legion said, they weren't sure what the implications would be of completely removing the quarians from existence so they made a choice not to do so. In contrast, the quarians have only ever wanted to destroy the geth completely. Tali was the only one who has diverged from that opinion and then only after meeting Legion, and even then only in relation to Legion. She cared about Legion but not the geth in general. That's why I consider the quarians to be the bad guys in regard to the geth. That said, I tend to feel sympathetic to the random quarians I encounter, like on the Citadel, Illium and Omega. Even the one dying civilian found on Rannoch (and his poor orphaned son). It's the admirals that rile up my negative feelings toward the quarians and I sometimes wish there were an option to turn them over to the geth in the same way Xen wants you to turn Legion over to her. Honestly, I only like Tali among the admirals. Even Koris is an ass for trying to get Tali exiled as a way of getting his political opinion pushed forward. The Geth lost a huge amount of sympathy from me when they decided to let the heretics wage war upon other races. They fight to maintain existence and then they let a branch of their own deny others their right to exist without provocation? The quarians who started the Morning War are dead. The entire race lives on the verge of extinction because of the precarious conditions their ships are in. The Council has forcibly booted them off a colony world they tried to settle while the Geth have lived unmolested for 300 years on a planet they don't really need, have admitted they don't need and could have left once the clean up was finished. Their staying on Rannoch was a disaster just waiting to happen when they could have built in a safer, more remote location in space instead of hogging vital living space from the race that had logical need for it.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 9:53:28 GMT
Bioware, though, also has to consider players who are not at all skilled at shooter games. As for the latter, you seem to be arguing out of both sides of your mouth... first saying that the game came down too heavily being in favor of a cure and now saying it came down too heavily in favor of not curing it. It doesn't... the alignment of the moral decision is merely based on the player's previous decisions rather than being related to single P/R selection presented in a single dialogue wheel. A Shepard who see Krogan as overtly aggressive would likely kill Wrex (or allow Ashley to shoot him) when threatened and would have no interest in eventually helping the Krogan (which is the premise Shepard uses to convince Mordin to save the data). I certainly don't recall a dialogue option that says lets save the data just for posterity without having any intention of possibly using it in the future. To make it so you would have to shoot Mordin to cure the genophage just makes the whole situation completely implausible. If Mordin wasn't at all in favor of curing the genophage, he would never have leaked the information about the female krogan to Wrex/Wreav in the first place and you would not have been able to get him aboard your ship to help work on a cure at all. Therefore, he would not have been on Tuchanka with you at all and you would have had no opportunity to shoot him (and no opportunity at all to even promise a cure to Wrex/Wreav. The Krogran, therefore, would have simply not helped the Turians and your whole alliance would have fallen apart. (Not to mention that if you actually did shoot him, he'd be dead and unable to cure the genophage). I unserstand that Bioware should consider all players, the ones that are good at shooting and the ones who aren't. My question though is, how many players would end up with only 2 squadmates? Is it so common to do the Suicide Mission and end up (without planning) with Garrus, Tali and the other ME2 companion (the one replacing EDI) dead? And even if there are a lot of players that unlucky they could have just make Vega a Sentinel and be done with it. Sorry, I probably should have been more clear in expressing my opinion. I think the game came down too heavily in favour of curing the genophage, not the other way around. I can see why you consider saving the data to be strange for a pro genophage Shepard and that's why I said it was just my/my Shepard decision (you can agree or disagree with my reasoning). I used this example just to show you that you could be in favour of the genophage and still have a resolution were the writers want to make you feel bad for your opinion (either because you saved Wrex or the data). About the whole kill Mordin/save the genophage idea, it could have been done in a reasonable way. They could have had Padok Wiks as the salarian that wanted to cure the genophage and Mordin as a shadow antagonist for the Tuchanka act. Padok would have developed the cure and at the Shroud there could have been a confrontation between the two where you would have to pick a side (kill Mordin and the cure will be spread or kill Padok Wiks and sabotage it). Actually, losing Garrus can be fairly common, since he's towards the start of the list for dying if one just doesn't upgrade the shields or cannon. Tali does not become a potential squad mate in ME3 until after Priorty: Geth Dreadnought... which is more than halfway through the game. As of the "other ME2 companion" what you're really asking for here is for Bioware to create a recruitment mission in ME3 for every possible ME2 squad mate (that can be accessed early in the game) and then record dialogue for them to be potentially along on every other mission in the game... a huge cost in additional VA work. I still think having a paragon or renegade option to talk Mordin into going along with not curing the genophage (if Wrex and Eve are dead) is sufficiently easy and there are enough hints in the changed dialogue about Wreav's aggressiveness being a big problem that people in that situation will be usually inclined to not cure the genophage. AND you can still decide to shoot Mordin if Eve is still alive and all it costs you is Mordin as a War Asset. Again, I find the choice to save Maelon's data rather bizarre if you have no intention of allowing it to ever be used and I also wonder why then you would "feel bad" about shooting Mordin (who is, in that case, basically a traitor to his own people) or why you would feel less bad about having to shoot Padok Wiks instead.
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Post by rafmekerk on Feb 11, 2017 10:30:06 GMT
I unserstand that Bioware should consider all players, the ones that are good at shooting and the ones who aren't. My question though is, how many players would end up with only 2 squadmates? Is it so common to do the Suicide Mission and end up (without planning) with Garrus, Tali and the other ME2 companion (the one replacing EDI) dead? And even if there are a lot of players that unlucky they could have just make Vega a Sentinel and be done with it. Sorry, I probably should have been more clear in expressing my opinion. I think the game came down too heavily in favour of curing the genophage, not the other way around. I can see why you consider saving the data to be strange for a pro genophage Shepard and that's why I said it was just my/my Shepard decision (you can agree or disagree with my reasoning). I used this example just to show you that you could be in favour of the genophage and still have a resolution were the writers want to make you feel bad for your opinion (either because you saved Wrex or the data). About the whole kill Mordin/save the genophage idea, it could have been done in a reasonable way. They could have had Padok Wiks as the salarian that wanted to cure the genophage and Mordin as a shadow antagonist for the Tuchanka act. Padok would have developed the cure and at the Shroud there could have been a confrontation between the two where you would have to pick a side (kill Mordin and the cure will be spread or kill Padok Wiks and sabotage it). Actually, losing Garrus can be fairly common, since he's towards the start of the list for dying if one just doesn't upgrade the shields or cannon. Tali does not become a potential squad mate in ME3 until after Priorty: Geth Dreadnought... which is more than halfway through the game. As of the "other ME2 companion" what you're really asking for here is for Bioware to create a recruitment mission in ME3 for every possible ME2 squad mate (that can be accessed early in the game) and then record dialogue for them to be potentially along on every other mission in the game... a huge cost in additional VA work. I still think having a paragon or renegade option to talk Mordin into going along with not curing the genophage (if Wrex and Eve are dead) is sufficiently easy and there are enough hints in the changed dialogue about Wreav's aggressiveness being a big problem that people in that situation will be usually inclined to not cure the genophage. AND you can still decide to shoot Mordin if Eve is still alive and all it costs you is Mordin as a War Asset. Again, I find the choice to save Maelon's data rather bizarre if you have no intention of allowing it to ever be used and I also wonder why then you would "feel bad" about shooting Mordin (who is, in that case, basically a traitor to his own people) or why you would feel less bad about having to shoot Padok Wiks instead. I know. I would probably not be satisfied even if they added another ME2 squadmate. I think they wrote themselves in a corner having so much companions in ME2 and being able to potentially lose then all. You can never know if a research can be useful to something else that you didn't think of at first, that's why I dislike the decision of not keeping the data. I would feel less bad about shooting Padok because we didn't know him that well as we knew Mordin. Also because I think it was forced for Mordin to change his opinion like that. I guess I just agree to disagree with your opinion. :-)
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Post by dmc1001 on Feb 11, 2017 14:30:21 GMT
The Geth lost a huge amount of sympathy from me when they decided to let the heretics wage war upon other races. They fight to maintain existence and then they let a branch of their own deny others their right to exist without provocation? The quarians who started the Morning War are dead. The entire race lives on the verge of extinction because of the precarious conditions their ships are in. The Council has forcibly booted them off a colony world they tried to settle while the Geth have lived unmolested for 300 years on a planet they don't really need, have admitted they don't need and could have left once the clean up was finished. Their staying on Rannoch was a disaster just waiting to happen when they could have built in a safer, more remote location in space instead of hogging vital living space from the race that had logical need for it. The geth don't seem to have the capacity to oppose one another - except for Legion. They go by consensus. The heretics chose to go their own way and the equation still worked out - whatever that means. The geth don't make use of emotion and so are unlikely to invite the quarians back or care about the fate of organics. I'm curious about the colony world you're referring to. Tried looking it up. Best I could find is that they were forced out of the Citadel embassy as a result of creating AI, even if unintentionally. The Council also made an agreement with the quarians to leave the geth alone so as not to provoke them. In fact, I thought Shepard even brought up the idea of colonizing another world and the response was something along the lines of how difficult it would be because of their weak immune systems. Difficult does not mean impossible. Even if they hoped to return to Rannoch one day they could do so from a home world. The Council really doesn't care what anyone does outside the boundaries of Council space so long as it doesn't threaten them. That's all I've got. I can see both sides. There was fault all around but the quarians put themselves in dire situations, first with the Morning War and then again just prior to the Reaper invasion. Hard to be sympathetic when they make stupid decisions.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Feb 11, 2017 14:32:48 GMT
I guess my unpopular opinion is that genoicide is wrong.
Genophage supporters blow my mind. As long as it doesn't affect you....
Logical implications of this reach far further than any one has cared to think.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Feb 11, 2017 15:11:46 GMT
Genophage was a necessary evil. It's the same as keeping the Batarians out of council space because they can't be team-players except Krogans were fucking dangerous to every other species so something drastic needed to happen. The prolonging of it is the part where it calls for a remedy which can happen in ME3, and it's fair enough to sustain it if Wreav is the leader without Eve to hold him in check even though the disease is prejudice and lets a million fair and wonderful Krogan people left to live a shitty life with no freedom. Again, it's a necessary evil that was proven to be so and would not need to be removed unless the Krogan could prove themselves to be better than they were before they were infected.
It's akin to getting house arrest. That's not shameful if the person has actually done something terrible. The problem with the Genophage is the prejudice and racism that condemns all Krogan to be equally hostile which probably isn't true.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2017 16:00:28 GMT
Actually, losing Garrus can be fairly common, since he's towards the start of the list for dying if one just doesn't upgrade the shields or cannon. Tali does not become a potential squad mate in ME3 until after Priorty: Geth Dreadnought... which is more than halfway through the game. As of the "other ME2 companion" what you're really asking for here is for Bioware to create a recruitment mission in ME3 for every possible ME2 squad mate (that can be accessed early in the game) and then record dialogue for them to be potentially along on every other mission in the game... a huge cost in additional VA work. I still think having a paragon or renegade option to talk Mordin into going along with not curing the genophage (if Wrex and Eve are dead) is sufficiently easy and there are enough hints in the changed dialogue about Wreav's aggressiveness being a big problem that people in that situation will be usually inclined to not cure the genophage. AND you can still decide to shoot Mordin if Eve is still alive and all it costs you is Mordin as a War Asset. Again, I find the choice to save Maelon's data rather bizarre if you have no intention of allowing it to ever be used and I also wonder why then you would "feel bad" about shooting Mordin (who is, in that case, basically a traitor to his own people) or why you would feel less bad about having to shoot Padok Wiks instead. I know. I would probably not be satisfied even if they added another ME2 squadmate. I think they wrote themselves in a corner having so much companions in ME2 and being able to potentially lose then all. You can never know if a research can be useful to something else that you didn't think of at first, that's why I dislike the decision of not keeping the data. I would feel less bad about shooting Padok because we didn't know him that well as we knew Mordin. Also because I think it was forced for Mordin to change his opinion like that. I guess I just agree to disagree with your opinion. :-) r One the other side of the coin, keeping data can also mean it gets leaked and can be used by others in ways you don't intend it to be used. (This idea is also presented in the line I quote below and also in Kasumi's LM... Do you destroy Keigi's implant to keep her safe or keep it just for the sake of allowing her to hang onto the memories (since you are apparently unable to extract the data and, therefore, can have no intention of using it). I just think it's more consistent to destroy from a roleplay perspective if you have no intention of ever using the data to help the krogan. Before you make the decision, Mordin clearly tells you about the potential the data has to cure the genophage regardless of what path you take. "Worked for years to create modified genophage. Should destroy this. Maelon's work could cure genophage. Don't know. Effects on krogan. Effects on galaxy. Too many variables. Too many variables." This is clearly Mordin already starting to doubt himself. Now comes the time to make the choice. The upper left option that saves the data clearly shows "You should help the krogan." (You're not going to pick that one, obviously). So that leaves the upper right one which shows "Hold onto the data" and causes Shepard to say "Better to keep the data and not need it."... to which Mordin replies "Still years away from cure, but better than starting from scratch." Which is pretty much a confirmation that Mordin's long-term intent is now to cure the genophage. If you do shoot Wrex and don't save Maelon's data, the clear choice it to sabotage the cure. If you don't shoot Wrex and destroy Maelon's data, the choice is a little more ambiguous because Wrex did suggest Krogan expansion in the truck and Eve (who puts the brakes on him there) is dead and Mordin will express doubts about the future of the krogan. If you don't shoot Wrex and keep Maelon's data, Mordin is optimistic about the future of the Krogan and the clear choice is to cure the genophage. I feel that the presentation is very consistent, balanced, and merely falls in line with the decisions the player has already made in the previous two games. That you can't see your way to roleplay in a more consistent manner on this issue is what's creating your own problem with it.
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Post by opuspace on Feb 11, 2017 16:33:21 GMT
The geth don't seem to have the capacity to oppose one another - except for Legion. They go by consensus. The heretics chose to go their own way and the equation still worked out - whatever that means. The geth don't make use of emotion and so are unlikely to invite the quarians back or care about the fate of organics. I'm curious about the colony world you're referring to. Tried looking it up. Best I could find is that they were forced out of the Citadel embassy as a result of creating AI, even if unintentionally. The Council also made an agreement with the quarians to leave the geth alone so as not to provoke them. In fact, I thought Shepard even brought up the idea of colonizing another world and the response was something along the lines of how difficult it would be because of their weak immune systems. Difficult does not mean impossible. Even if they hoped to return to Rannoch one day they could do so from a home world. The Council really doesn't care what anyone does outside the boundaries of Council space so long as it doesn't threaten them. That's all I've got. I can see both sides. There was fault all around but the quarians put themselves in dire situations, first with the Morning War and then again just prior to the Reaper invasion. Hard to be sympathetic when they make stupid decisions. It's hard to say what conclusion the Geth came to when they fractured into Heretics, but the fact they fractured at all is evidence that opposition, even in its most passive peaceful form, exists within the species. As mentioned in the codices: "...this schism suggests that individual geth possess more free will and perhaps even personality than previously suspected. Without such individuality, no geth could have deviated from the group decision to join or reject Saren's mission. There could not have been a division. Finally, there is the matter of Legion's word choice. The geth used the English word "heretics" to describe Saren's followers. Of the many words Legion could have chosen (nonconformists, dissenters, rebels, etc.), only the word "heretic" suggests a broadly accepted geth philosophy or religion, and that the actions of Saren's allies violated the orthodoxy." Responsibility is still on the Geth Consensus' heads because they had full knowledge of what the Heretics wanted and allowed the unprovoked slaughter of organic races. To me, they're worse than their creators who panicked because these are the same intelligence who rebelled because they didn't wish to be wiped out. That they have been actively observing organic races takes away any claim to ignorance of the Heretics' actions. The Geth had no need for Rannoch because: According to Legion, geth do not actually live on any of the quarian planets they conquered, serving merely as caretakers for them instead. They find it more efficient to live on space stations and draw resources from asteroids, though they maintain mobile platforms on the worlds to clear rubble and toxins left by the Morning War. As for the Quarians' attempt to colonize elsewhere: First discovered by the quarians at the turn of the century, Ekuna is habitable, but a second-tier choice for most species. Circling an orange sun, Ekuna averages below freezing temperatures. This led development firms to colonize at the planet's equator, where the climate is tolerable for agriculture. The quarians, seeking a homeworld of their own, petitioned the Citadel Council for the right to take over Ekuna, but they had already settled a few hundred thousand quarians on the planet before approaching the Council. Seeing this occupation as an illegal act, the Council turned a deaf ear to quarian pleas and gave the world to the elcor, who could withstand the high gravity of the world far better. The quarians squatting on the planet were given one galactic standard month to leave, at which point their colonies would be bombarded. There's also mention in the novels about how the Quarian Liveships were facing ship integrity degradation and that it was a matter of time before their ships disintegrated despite their numerous repairs and addition of new ships. They were discussing leaving to venture outside the galaxy because they truly didn't have any place to settle without being attacked. In short, the quarians were forced into attacking Rannoch because they really didn't have much choice. It wasn't stupidity, it was desperation. Calling them stupid is oversimplifying the situation they were in and ignoring the hypocrisy in the Geth's actions.
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Post by noviere on Feb 12, 2017 13:25:05 GMT
Jennifer Hale makes an awesome military commander, but sounds horrible when she flirts. She softens her voice and it just creeps me out. "James."
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