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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 18:45:45 GMT
Oh yes, Javik. The traces of Protheans you found in ME1 made them really interesting, but then they were retconned in ME3 to look like Collectors. Also just too comically arsehole. To be fair in ME 1 they didn't have any idea what Protheans would actually look like. ME 2 they created Collectors and made them Protheans who had been altered by the Reapers into servitude towards them. So not really a surprise that Javik looks similar to Collector. All the Reaper Troops bear resemblance towards the race that they are made from. Brute being the only exception due to the fact it is a hybrid of two races.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Apr 18, 2017 18:53:12 GMT
The first Mass Effect is the only one that holds up in terms of story. 2 and 3 are both idiot plots.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 18:53:17 GMT
Oh yes, Javik. The traces of Protheans you found in ME1 made them really interesting, but then they were retconned in ME3 to look like Collectors. Also just too comically arsehole. To be fair in ME 1 they didn't have any idea what Protheans would actually look like. ME 2 they created Collectors and made them Protheans who had been altered by the Reapers into servitude towards them. So not really a surprise that Javik looks similar to Collector. All the Reaper Troops bear resemblance towards the race that they are made from. Brute being the only exception due to the fact it is a hybrid of two races. In ME1 you could see what the Protheans looked like from the statues on Ilos and Shepard's visions. Those guys with their tentacle mouths. They also seemed to be nicer, given that they were the ones who created Vigil. I believe they first created the Collectors in ME2 and later added that "they're Protheans!" thing only to have a strong plot twist.
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Post by Darth Dennis on Apr 18, 2017 18:57:58 GMT
The eviscerator was the best shotgun in 2 and 3 In 2, maybe (I never used shotguns in 2), but in 3 the Claymore is definitely better.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 19:06:49 GMT
I found shotguns pretty pointless in ME3. Hurricane + incendiary ammo, problem solved.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 18, 2017 19:22:28 GMT
To be fair in ME 1 they didn't have any idea what Protheans would actually look like. ME 2 they created Collectors and made them Protheans who had been altered by the Reapers into servitude towards them. So not really a surprise that Javik looks similar to Collector. All the Reaper Troops bear resemblance towards the race that they are made from. Brute being the only exception due to the fact it is a hybrid of two races. In ME1 you could see what the Protheans looked like from the statues on Ilos and Shepard's visions. Those guys with their tentacle mouths. They also seemed to be nicer, given that they were the ones who created Vigil. I believe they first created the Collectors in ME2 and later added that "they're Protheans!" thing only to have a strong plot twist. Actually it came from the game developers about that. They didn't have any initial idea what the Protheans looked like. That is why there is no artwork in the game showing what the Protheans looked like. As well the fact that the Ilos VI is a shapeless mass with a voice only. Statues can be anything because if I walk around town I will see statues of people, animals and weirder things depending on were you go. For example there is a park with only statues of penises and vaginas in Japan I think it is. The Collectors were created to be a very strange organic like look. If they were intended from the beginning to be Protheans or not is another story but they were eventually made into that. The design of the collectors is what influence character artists when they created Javik the Prothean. Due to the fact the Collectors were originally Protheans they would need similarities between the two in terms of visuals.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2017 19:53:14 GMT
Just saying that all we saw left of Protheans in ME1 was those tentacle face people in statues and visions. There was nothing remotely resembling the Collectors back then. ME3 even went as far as retconning the visions so that tentacle faced Protheans are replaced by Javik-like ones.
I know that many things hadn't been decided on early on, like the actual intentions of the Reapers. Much has developed (or not) over the trilogy. But retconning in the sense of erasing/replacing what had been there before really sucks. Especially if an interesting design is replaced by a less interesting one.
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Post by nougat on Apr 18, 2017 20:12:56 GMT
As I recall those Ilos statues were retconned (for lack of a better word) as remnants of the Inusannon race.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2017 2:16:03 GMT
Just saying that all we saw left of Protheans in ME1 was those tentacle face people in statues and visions. There was nothing remotely resembling the Collectors back then. ME3 even went as far as retconning the visions so that tentacle faced Protheans are replaced by Javik-like ones. I know that many things hadn't been decided on early on, like the actual intentions of the Reapers. Much has developed (or not) over the trilogy. But retconning in the sense of erasing/replacing what had been there before really sucks. Especially if an interesting design is replaced by a less interesting one. Going to have to show me the picture of the statues being replace on Ilos with new ones.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 19, 2017 2:36:36 GMT
Just saying that all we saw left of Protheans in ME1 was those tentacle face people in statues and visions. There was nothing remotely resembling the Collectors back then. ME3 even went as far as retconning the visions so that tentacle faced Protheans are replaced by Javik-like ones. I know that many things hadn't been decided on early on, like the actual intentions of the Reapers. Much has developed (or not) over the trilogy. But retconning in the sense of erasing/replacing what had been there before really sucks. Especially if an interesting design is replaced by a less interesting one. Agreed. Those squiddy things on Ilos were scary and mysterious. Not just the heads but the way the statues were posed. As has been said, they were retconned to be predecessors of the Protheans but those things were freaky looking. Maybe they were deemed too similar in some ways to the Reapers (tentacle-like appendages, even if in different places) or even too difficult to make the models. Just like while we see hanar in ME, they aren't used in action. That's reserved for generally bipedal creatures.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Apr 19, 2017 2:47:39 GMT
Just saying that all we saw left of Protheans in ME1 was those tentacle face people in statues and visions. There was nothing remotely resembling the Collectors back then. ME3 even went as far as retconning the visions so that tentacle faced Protheans are replaced by Javik-like ones. I know that many things hadn't been decided on early on, like the actual intentions of the Reapers. Much has developed (or not) over the trilogy. But retconning in the sense of erasing/replacing what had been there before really sucks. Especially if an interesting design is replaced by a less interesting one. Going to have to show me the picture of the statues being replace on Ilos with new ones. Not the statues but at some point (in ME2 I think) they changed the protheans in Shepard's vision from this... to this...
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2017 2:58:35 GMT
Going to have to show me the picture of the statues being replace on Ilos with new ones. Not the statues but at some point (in ME2 I think) they changed the protheans in Shepard's vision from this... to this... Not really retconing anything though. Really splitting hairs to develop a problem with this.
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Post by SimRahzel on Apr 19, 2017 18:06:03 GMT
The eviscerator was the best shotgun in 2 and 3 In 2, maybe (I never used shotguns in 2), but in 3 the Claymore is definitely better. Well this thread IS supposed to be for unpopular opinions! I know the eviscerator isn't the best shotgun statistically speaking, but it is the best to me for reasons I don't even really understand. I've tried all of them at one time or another but the Eviscerator is the only one that feels "natural" to use for some reason.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2017 19:55:29 GMT
Not really retconing anything though. Really splitting hairs to develop a problem with this. How is completely replacing the design of a core story race not retconning, and how is complaining about it "hair splitting"?
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 19, 2017 22:03:48 GMT
Not really retconing anything though. Really splitting hairs to develop a problem with this. How is completely replacing the design of a core story race not retconning, and how is complaining about it "hair splitting"? Because the design of Protheans were not developed at that point. At no point did anyone point to the statue and say definitively that they are Protheans. There isn't even a character that says that in the game. In terms of development it is like finding out that dinosaurs who we have never actually seen. We learn that some of them had feathers. So getting upset that Jurassic Park only showed Dinos without feathers. There is also the less obvious set up of Shepard the longer he had the mental imprint the better he was able to interpret them. Hence why the computer on Thessia even without Javik responds to Shepard and he was able to interpret the Prothean language so easily on Ilos and when he liberated Javik's stasis pod from Cerberus. But again it is an insignificant change to an insignificant part of the game. That is why I call it splitting hairs because the change to Collector rather then statue on Ilos changes nothing about the lore of the game. It was a change to match their further development of the Protheans who they never had a real thought about other then that was the name of the previous race. Much like how Bungie with Halo never really had a idea what Forerunners looked like. They intended them to be the humans. The effect of the Halo Array firing and giving up their technology to start over as penance for their actions with the Flood. Keeping them vague and their story explained in broad strokes. It wasn't till 343 Studios got a hold of the Halo series when Microsoft took over and they went into detail about the Forerunners and deus ex machina not one but two into the game for reasons that don't make any sense.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 7:49:06 GMT
But again it is an insignificant change to an insignificant part of the game. That is why I call it splitting hairs because the change to Collector rather then statue on Ilos changes nothing about the lore of the game. I wouldn't have cared a lot if it was just retconned visions and nothing else. But we ended up with Javik.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 7:49:59 GMT
Anyway, unpopular opinions... I like Traynor.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 8:45:52 GMT
Anyway, unpopular opinions... I like Traynor. Is that unpopular? I really like her too and would have romanced her if Liara didn't get her blue hands on me But Traynor is awesome, love the voice and the intelligence.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 8:51:52 GMT
Hm, I've seen her receive a lot of anger. Maybe I've been on Steam forums and Youtube longer than I should have.
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Post by yan on Apr 23, 2017 9:41:11 GMT
1) voice of male Shep >>>> voice of femshep
2) Zaeed is f**** awesome
3) Liara sux (not in ME1)
4) reveant sux
5) Who criticizes Kai Leng for being a ninja, cant like Kasumi and her lore-breaking Spider-Man jumps
6) Is stupid wear the N7 hoodie inside the ship
7) gameplay wise, Garrus is one of the worst companions in all 3 games.
8) tech is more cool then biotics
9) the combat of ME1 is pretty cool
10) Miranda in ME3 is a atrocity. She's cute in ME2, however.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 10:27:38 GMT
5) Who criticizes Kai Leng for being a ninja, cant like Kasumi and her lore-breaking Spider-Man jumps Good point, and in fact I don't like Kasumi at all. All this ninja nonsense is just immersion-breaking (not that there was any immersion left in ME3).
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 23, 2017 12:36:11 GMT
But again it is an insignificant change to an insignificant part of the game. That is why I call it splitting hairs because the change to Collector rather then statue on Ilos changes nothing about the lore of the game. I wouldn't have cared a lot if it was just retconned visions and nothing else. But we ended up with Javik. And Halo ended up with this and Same species but drastically different looks because an advanced race that can almost defy death and collapse suns has a rigidly enforce hierarchical chaste system were they genetically alter the physical and mental abilities of people to conform to that chaste they were born into. Now if you want to complain about the logic of how Javik managed to survive for so long apparently on a single power strip while others were some how not able to survive due to power problems in stasis for so long. That is understandable because it is so odd and just shoe horned in. If you are complaining about the visual changes that ultimatly lead to the visual look of Javik and subsequent changes to minor and ultimately unimportant things like changing the image that is on screen for like 2 seconds from statues which they used when they didn't have any real idea what they wanted the protheans to look like to the collectors who they decided were Protheans changed by the Reapers to the ultimate and final look of Protheans when they designed Javik based off the collectors. Is a different thing altogether. I mean you can still complain about it but given the standards set by BioWare from their first 2 ME games it seems like the equivalent of complaining about a restaurant not placing your silverware perfectly parallel to each other.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2017 23:14:06 GMT
Yes, I admit I'm a bit sensitive about the mass of redesign and retconning in ME2 and especially 3. A few things here and there would be ok, but the sheer amount of it made it all fall apart to me.
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Post by dmc1001 on Apr 24, 2017 1:27:58 GMT
But again it is an insignificant change to an insignificant part of the game. That is why I call it splitting hairs because the change to Collector rather then statue on Ilos changes nothing about the lore of the game. I wouldn't have cared a lot if it was just retconned visions and nothing else. But we ended up with Javik. Though I generally agree with you that BioWare changed their mind about the Protheans, there's a way around this. Maybe the vision was specifically about Ilos and so what we were seeing were those statues. Hence, while we might believe those were Protheans, Shepard would know better because s/he has access to their history and culture, at least in an abstract way.
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Post by gothpunkboy89 on Apr 24, 2017 2:08:18 GMT
Yes, I admit I'm a bit sensitive about the mass of redesign and retconning in ME2 and especially 3. A few things here and there would be ok, but the sheer amount of it made it all fall apart to me. Redesigning happens as games evolve and develop. Retconning seems to be used like a dirty word with some even though it is natural for games to release more information or sharper focus of intent as games go in. Particularly when a game story expands beyond one game. I don't know were or when the word turned into something bad. Their are a few things that do stand out like Cerberus going from a rouge black ops unit to a massive spy agency on par with other races. But those are far and few between.
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