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Post by obbie1984 on May 11, 2018 22:11:54 GMT
I do agree that it is very easy to like Garrus initially. Even after so many playthroughs, I still don't hate him. I think he's ok. I've actually never even done a run with him dead. Its probably something I should try at one point. Its just that most of his roles seem really inconsequential. In ME1 and ME2 he really didn't do or say much honestly. But yet people loved this guy. Even his romance is just ok to me. Most of the time he is just being awkward and goofy. And on occasion he will be serious or charming. I have heard some girls say his Citadel DLC scene where he kind of "urges" Shepard to dance is not such a great scene. And in ME3, its kind of messed up right after Wrex asks Garrus if he knew about the bomb that Garrus starts to appreciate the crudeness of the bomb. And I don't know why his banter just bothers me so much in certain missions. I just don't get how a character that is so... not alien gets so much love, but then characters like Ash/Kaidan/James are hated so much. I mean, he never really ever acted like an alien, but in ME3, its like they weren't even trying anymore. And he tries way too hard to be funny. Also, I remember I got called an idiot by a Garrus fans because I said he was dull and that Alistair was a better bro/more interesting character than him. And I'm not even going to bother about Liara. I've already talked about why I dislike her so much. I want to say sorry that you got insulted by a Garrus fan for not being thrilled by him. Honestly, dull is hardly the worst of the hate I've seen directed at him. It's not like you made snide comments about the fanbase either for liking him so that was out of line for them to lash back at you for voicing that. Its not really your fault, not that I don't appreciate your words. For the most part this forum and most ME fans have been pretty easy to get along with. Its a lot worse in other game fanbases I am a fan of. And no, I don't really make snide comments. I really dislike Liara, but I got no problem with people who do like her. I just wish that killing her off was an option in my run. And I got one more unpopular opinion. I prefer the humans in the ME universe. This extends even to ME3 multiplayer. I mostly prefer playing as human characters. While I like quite a few of the aliens (Wrex, Thane, Tali Kirahe, Wiks), I think characters like Ash and Kaidan are better written. I don't even think Jacob is as bad as people make him out to be (as long as he's not romanced), and James is ok as well. Jack I like. Miranda might be the only human character who I feel is weak overall.
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Post by opuspace on May 11, 2018 22:40:46 GMT
Its not really your fault, not that I don't appreciate your words. For the most part this forum and most ME fans have been pretty easy to get along with. Its a lot worse in other game fanbases I am a fan of. And no, I don't really make snide comments. I really dislike Liara, but I got no problem with people who do like her. I just wish that killing her off was an option in my run. And I got one more unpopular opinion. I prefer the humans in the ME universe. This extends even to ME3 multiplayer. I mostly prefer playing as human characters. While I like quite a few of the aliens (Wrex, Thane, Tali Kirahe, Wiks), I think characters like Ash and Kaidan are better written. I don't even think Jacob is as bad as people make him out to be (as long as he's not romanced), and James is ok as well. Jack I like. Miranda might be the only human character who I feel is weak overall. That's fine, I like a lot of human characters too. I do prefer alien teammates, but I don't see them as any different than humans in that they're as flawed and imperfect in their personality and choices. Back in the day, I had sort of unintentionally started the "Walking Codex" meme when I complained about how much of Tali's dialogue in the first and second game seemed to consist of lengthy explanations about her people and the Fleet (I had called it a walking Flotilla Wikipedia entry). But I liked her personality regardless. What gets me though is when the lashback against some of them gets to the point where people are becoming the very type of critics they hate. They talk about how ridiculous it is that Kaidan or Ashley gets unfairly treated while in the same breath talking about how Garrus fans make excuses for his behavior or just want an ass kisser. It's ironic and insulting. No, I don't believe it's fair to judge a character for something another is doing. But they all have flaws. Yes, Garrus did make racist comments towards Tali. Yes, he does apologize to her. No, it is not because he's trying to hook up with her because he'll do that even when romanced with Shepard. As for writing quality...I'd say it can be iffy with Ashley, Kaidan and Jacob. Horizon turned them into irrational people with a really odd emotional whiplash that did them no justice. Jacob was turned into a cheater because of lack of resources. When it was good, it was really well done, like the standoff at the Citadel. But there were moments with alien teammates that had more frequent emotional punch. Tali wanting more from her father than orders as she was crouched over her dad's corpse was one. Garrus venting his frustrations in the car with Shepard about vengeance, when he was blaming himself and Sidonis for his team's death, those resonated with me. Why should a fan of that be insulted as blind to their flaws?
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Post by obbie1984 on May 12, 2018 17:59:08 GMT
opuspace I think the issue for me is practically ALL the aliens have human issues and in most cases even human personalities. Who is the more useful squadmate is subjective, but I really enjoyed playing Sentinel/Adept with Ashley in ME3 or Vanguard with Miranda, Kasumi, or Kaidan for instance. And I'm with you on that one. I played the series super late and I think my words were she was a walking Encyclopedia of her people. But even then she still had a cute and bubbly personality to make her likable enough for me. And yes, all characters have flaws in how they were written. I don't think their reaction in ME2 were that irrational. Kaidan is a very by the books soldier. Probably one of the most Paragon characters in the series. It makes sense he gets that upset regardless of whether he is your friend or love interest. Ash getting upset makes a lot more sense if she is romanced to me. It also shows that she doesn't instinctively side with humans like some think. I do wish in ME3 that they didn't keep distrusting Shepard even after he/she saved the galaxy twice, but at least they come to trust Shep again. To me, that is more interesting than characters like Liara/Garrus who have your back no matter what. Jacob on the other hand is just a boring nice guy if not romanced. He has a commendable attitude and does positive things after escaping from TIM. If he's romanced, yeah his writing is lousy for the most part. I don't get why they didn't try to improve his writing or character. Instead, they just made him worse. And as much as I like Kaidan/Ash, I would never call them flawless. Outside of a few instances of poorly written dialogue, I prefer they are flawed.
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Post by opuspace on May 12, 2018 19:02:03 GMT
For the most part, it sounds like there's no real disagreement between us when it comes to personal preference about the characters. Which makes this conversation a huge relief in discussing nuance without it setting off kneejerk reactions. I do agree with you that Garrus' sense of humor doesn't connect and that Ashley conveyed a better sense of friendship when she invited Shep for a drink to acknowledge Armistice day. He's still a favorite squadmate in other ways such as his willingness to listen but still making his own decisions whether it was productive or disastrous. As for Horizon...I don't blame them for being upset, but their reaction was one where they believed it was really Shepard and not an imposter or a puppet. It's jarring because you can flat out say to them, it wasn't your choice. If Garrus is there, confusion should be a bigger reaction than anger. And that's what Citadel nailed. Kaidan going, "Hold on, just-just let me think! Shepard, kind of looks bad..." Yes. Yes it does! It really does look bad! Why couldn't we have that on Horizon? At least then players who were frustrated wouldn't feel like they were being ignored on the explanation for why they were stuck with Cerberus against their will. Sorry, Horizon makes me mad because it looks like the writers were arranging conflict between Shepard and Ashley/Kaidan for no better reason than for new romance reasons. And that fact that Liara could have kept Horizon from happening...grrrrrr!
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Post by Sunegami on May 14, 2018 19:19:35 GMT
Horizon makes me mad because it looks like the writers were arranging conflict between Shepard and Ashley/Kaidan This is why I consider BackOff a must-have mod. My Femshep totally called Kaidan out on his behavior on Horizon and he apologized. This is what we needed, Bioware!
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Post by dmc1001 on May 15, 2018 6:50:40 GMT
Horizon makes me mad because it looks like the writers were arranging conflict between Shepard and Ashley/Kaidan This is why I consider BackOff a must-have mod. My Femshep totally called Kaidan out on his behavior on Horizon and he apologized. This is what we needed, Bioware! I would use this mod but it's incompatible with the same sex romance mod.
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Post by opuspace on May 15, 2018 15:08:40 GMT
Horizon makes me mad because it looks like the writers were arranging conflict between Shepard and Ashley/Kaidan This is why I consider BackOff a must-have mod. My Femshep totally called Kaidan out on his behavior on Horizon and he apologized. This is what we needed, Bioware! Is that the one for ME3? I do get how frustrating Horizon can be. While it does make sense being upset about the whole revelation, some of how it was scripted makes Kaidan come off so weirdly that it looks like a hamhanded way to give players a convenient excuse to romance someone else. It just doesn't seem like Kaidan to put words in someone else's mouth.
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Post by Sunegami on May 16, 2018 21:01:40 GMT
This is why I consider BackOff a must-have mod. My Femshep totally called Kaidan out on his behavior on Horizon and he apologized. This is what we needed, Bioware! Is that the one for ME3? I do get how frustrating Horizon can be. While it does make sense being upset about the whole revelation, some of how it was scripted makes Kaidan come off so weirdly that it looks like a hamhanded way to give players a convenient excuse to romance someone else. It just doesn't seem like Kaidan to put words in someone else's mouth. Yep, it's for ME3; I got an extra dialogue option when I visited him in Huerta that let me chastise him for Horizon. And I agree, having the normally rational, patient, always questioning Kaidan completely shut Shepard down was so OOC I can't even. It just makes no sense. XP
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Post by themikefest on May 16, 2018 21:31:00 GMT
obbie1984, opuspaceI've noticed you mentioned about the scene with A/K on Horizon. The way the scene currently takes place, I would have had a renegade interrupt to smack A/K upside the head for turning stupid when Cerberus is mentioned and not focusing on the fact that it was the collectors that just took colonists for whatever purpose. With Shepard, he/she sounded like a beat up punk who gave a pathetic explanation. I've mentioned before how different the scene would have been had t'soni told the Alliance that Cerberus has Shepard's body. It would be up to them, if she didn't tell A/K, to tell A/K about that. How different would the scene be if Horizon happened after seeing T'soni? What would the reaction be from A/K if Shepard told them that T'soni helped in recovering his/her body and gave the body to Cerberus to bring Shepard back? What do you think would happen when they see the asari on Mars? Not sure what Alenko would do, but I believe Ashley would be in the asari's face. Its too bad there isn't an option to tell A/K that T'soni played a role in his/her body being in the hands of Cerberus. I recall playing the broker dlc as Shepard who romanced Ashley. I recall that I had the asari on the Normandy. I believe she mentioned she heard about what happened on Horizon. I would be curious how she would know about that? Of course what's it to her what happened on Horizon. Its not her concern. I might be wrong about that since its been a long time since that happened, but if others had that happen, it would be another question that I would want Shepard to ask. But all this goes back to one of my pet peeve's about Shepard. Not asking questions. I would be curious what answer the asari would give if asked if she told anyone that Cerberus has Shepard's body? Another one is if she's not romanced, she will say that Hackett gave her the dogtags. I find that hard to believe. Too bad there wasn't an option to ask Hackett about that when seeing him on the SR2 during the Arrival dlc, if the dlc is completed after completing the broker dlc.
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Post by opuspace on May 17, 2018 6:44:55 GMT
I'd rather not smack them nor Shepard as it's not their fault for being imprisoned in Bioware's awkward script. All that drama, all that tension and we never find out why they never had a word with her about her actions. She is the one after all who called Ashley/Kaidan shortsighted for Horizon but what does that say about her when she admitted to staying quiet about Tali's crush waaaay back in ME1 so as to not add to the competition? I don't know about the others, but I'd have been very creeped out that a girl who had a strong crush on my boyfriend or girlfriend had made a literal life and death decision on their behalf without me. What's worse, she never told me while I'd have been going through crippling grief while she had hope all this time. Ash and Kaidan? They have a right to ask her to be kept far away from Shepard at that point. And for Shepard? Any Shep that had gone through Akuze would be justified in not being pleased to be forced into a debt with Cerberus. It'd be like selling Liara into the Shadow Broker's service if she was seriously injured and let her foot the bill. I do agree; Shepard's been railroaded along with so many others for the sake of a movie than a game. Cutscenes that present Shepard as a certain personality that defeats the point of an RPG. Questions we, the fans, would have asked right off the bat are handwaved with each game. This will always be one of the biggest pet peeves for many and a reminder of why favoritism is a bad, bad idea without appropriate consequences or choice given to players on whether they accept it.
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Post by sugarless on May 17, 2018 12:47:37 GMT
obbie1984 , opuspace I've noticed you mentioned about the scene with A/K on Horizon. The way the scene currently takes place, I would have had a renegade interrupt to smack A/K upside the head for turning stupid when Cerberus is mentioned and not focusing on the fact that it was the collectors that just took colonists for whatever purpose. With Shepard, he/she sounded like a beat up punk who gave a pathetic explanation. Not only on Horizon, but also on Mars in ME3. It was very annoying to hear Ash or Kaidan crap on about Shepard's links to Cerberus. Even a verbal bitch slap would have sufficed lol.
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Post by themikefest on May 17, 2018 13:03:01 GMT
Not only on Horizon, but also on Mars in ME3. It was very annoying to hear Ash or Kaidan crap on about Shepard's links to Cerberus. Even a verbal bitch slap would have sufficed lol. I agree, but I also blame the pathetic excuse that A/K gave for not visiting Shepard in the past 6 months. Had that happened, its possible the exchange between them on Mars would be different.
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Post by themikefest on May 17, 2018 14:07:39 GMT
It would not be hard to have a sequel to ME3 with Shepard returning. Some say they want their choices to matter. Ok. What if that person has completed multiple playthroughs making different choices? If the player chooses to cure the genophage in one playthrough while in another playthrough, he/she chooses to sabotage it. Bioware makes curing the way they want to go. Can that person say their choices don't matter even though he/she chose it in a playthrough? The same for the ending. I've read posts from folks who have chosen each ending, but prefer one over the others.
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Post by Vortex13 on May 17, 2018 15:25:18 GMT
If there are any future Mass Effect titles (preferably ones set back in the Milky Way) I really hope BioWare will lay off the Genophage and the 'Chip on their collective shoulders' shtick for the Krogan.
It started out as a nice nuanced and morally grey issue, one that helped give the Krogan depth, but by ME 3 it had slide decidedly into a depressingly generic black and white camp. You either loved the Krogan, and would do anything for them, or you were an evil racist that apparently got off on seeing dead babies. No middle ground. No being able to call Wrex out withholding troops, or on him being a massive asshole to everyone that would otherwise be his allies. Etc. By the time ME: Andromeda rolled around, that aspect of the Krogan had morphed into a catch-all defense, one that allowed them to be free from any and all criticism no matter how belligerent or brutish they are, "because Genophage".
At least with other war-like science fiction races; like the Klingons for example; characters could call them out on their disruptive & violent antics, could make them see reason, and at least try to get them to work with others. Current Krogan on the other hand are given a free pass for being colossal dicks, or throwing collective temper tantrums, because to treat them the same way one would treat other species like the Turians, or Salarians is akin to space racism apparently.
A focus on the more non-human aliens, like the Elcor or Hanar would be much preferred in future games. Maybe even an in-depth exploration of the Rachni, now that would be most welcomed.
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Post by Phantom on May 17, 2018 15:39:43 GMT
It would not be hard to have a sequel to ME3 with Shepard returning. Some say they want their choices to matter. Ok. What if that person has completed multiple playthroughs making different choices? If the player chooses to cure the genophage in one playthrough while in another playthrough, he/she chooses to sabotage it. Bioware makes curing the way they want to go. Can that person say their choices don't matter even though he/she chose it in a playthrough? The same for the ending. I've read posts from folks who have chosen each ending, but prefer one over the others. Well a Possible idea with that while having a reasonable Krogan population. If cured, Krogan species took a massive population hit due to the Reaper War where they are barely enough Krogan to restart the Krogan anyway. If Sabotaged, Krogan will mild mutation that that slightly increase their population but they have to be careful due to the casualties during the Reaper War.. Either way, Krogan as a whole would be much smaller due to the Reapers due to casualties.
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Post by themikefest on May 17, 2018 15:55:31 GMT
It would not be hard to have a sequel to ME3 with Shepard returning. Some say they want their choices to matter. Ok. What if that person has completed multiple playthroughs making different choices? If the player chooses to cure the genophage in one playthrough while in another playthrough, he/she chooses to sabotage it. Bioware makes curing the way they want to go. Can that person say their choices don't matter even though he/she chose it in a playthrough? The same for the ending. I've read posts from folks who have chosen each ending, but prefer one over the others. Well a Possible idea with that while having a reasonable Krogan population. If cured, Krogan species took a massive population hit due to the Reaper War where they are barely enough Krogan to restart the Krogan anyway. If Sabotaged, Krogan will mild mutation that that slightly increase their population but they have to be careful due to the casualties during the Reaper War.. Either way, Krogan as a whole would be much smaller due to the Reapers due to casualties. That would have to be some massive hit for them to barely rebuild the population. Another idea would go with what the guy said. When he said the details have changed over time, instead of the genophage, its learned that krogan females can only get pregnant once in their lifetime allowing only the one offspring.
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Post by Phantom on May 17, 2018 17:11:27 GMT
Well a Possible idea with that while having a reasonable Krogan population. If cured, Krogan species took a massive population hit due to the Reaper War where they are barely enough Krogan to restart the Krogan anyway. If Sabotaged, Krogan will mild mutation that that slightly increase their population but they have to be careful due to the casualties during the Reaper War.. Either way, Krogan as a whole would be much smaller due to the Reapers due to casualties. That would have to be some massive hit for them to barely rebuild the population. Another idea would go with what the guy said. When he said the details have changed over time, instead of the genophage, its learned that krogan females can only get pregnant once in their lifetime allowing only the one offspring. that would be a good idea, themikefest due to the grandfather aspect of the ME3 stargazer. Well My If Genophage is Cure with Krogan, Reapers went out of their way to target Krogan with their Reaper Husk Death Squads with Modified Anti Krogan Reaper Husks and Weapons and reduce their population by 99% before the Reapers were stopped. I would make Reapers even more unrepentant in their brutality than shown in game. Even if shepard did save both Geth and Quarians. They were forced into hiding due to the Reapers were monitoring the situation and reduce Quarian from a 17 million strong to 17,000 quarian and Geth barely a whisper in conspiracy theoriets circles by Wars end. Well there are many possible way to respect the choices of players that is for another thread.
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Post by Sumerian Physics on May 17, 2018 21:18:45 GMT
Shepard is a woman
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Post by boxofscreaming on May 17, 2018 22:51:32 GMT
I think Ashley/Kaidan were 100% right on Horizon. It's Shepard who's being forced to act out of character by the writers.
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Post by Sunegami on May 18, 2018 3:23:18 GMT
A focus on the more non-human aliens, like the Elcor or Hanar would be much preferred in future games. With barely-contained excitement: Yes, I would love more involving the elcor.
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Post by dmc1001 on May 18, 2018 4:14:13 GMT
Huh. Looks completely like a dude whenever I play. Non-binary?
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Post by dmc1001 on May 18, 2018 4:20:32 GMT
I think Ashley/Kaidan were 100% right on Horizon. It's Shepard who's being forced to act out of character by the writers. I agree, but only to an extent. The Alliance and Council weren't doing anything. We know the Council is prone to ignoring anything Shepard has to say with 100% proof provided, and even then they're iffy. Also, Cerberus has enough resources to take on all Council races because...reasons. Since Cerberus was the only who gave a damn he essentially said he'd put aside past grudges for the time being, use their resources and either take them down or cut ties with them (which he did). Hard to really acknowledge that when Miranda or Jacob might be around and with EDI always in "earshot". What should have been an option was to clearly state that he didn't want to work with Cerberus but they provided him with what he needed to take on the Collectors - with no strings attached..
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Post by themikefest on May 18, 2018 4:42:22 GMT
What Shepard should have said, at least on the Citadel when talking with Anderson, is to tell Anderson and the Alliance to stuff it. Since the Alliance made made no effort to confirm Shepard's death, not doing anything about the abductions, and then Anderson saying its up to Shepard to find a way to stop the reapers. Its very clear Anderson and the Alliance don't care. Shepard should be the one upset.
That's why I would have added an interrupt to smack A/K upside the head for turning stupid when Cerberus is mentioned instead of concentrating on the collectors. You know? The ones who are taking colonist. A/K needed to pull they're head out of their fifth-point-of-contact.
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sugarless
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 466 Likes: 1,393
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sugarless
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sugarless on May 18, 2018 7:14:47 GMT
Not an unpopular opinion at all
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sugarless
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Posts: 466 Likes: 1,393
inherit
3031
0
1,393
sugarless
466
January 2017
sugarless
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by sugarless on May 18, 2018 7:22:50 GMT
It would not be hard to have a sequel to ME3 with Shepard returning. Some say they want their choices to matter. Ok. What if that person has completed multiple playthroughs making different choices? If the player chooses to cure the genophage in one playthrough while in another playthrough, he/she chooses to sabotage it. Bioware makes curing the way they want to go. Can that person say their choices don't matter even though he/she chose it in a playthrough? The same for the ending. I've read posts from folks who have chosen each ending, but prefer one over the others. This contentious topic has probably been fleshed out and shot down many times here and in the original Bioware forums, but I have to add my wish to see Shepard return to the series. Chances are incredibly slim to none, but one can hope. Although many of the red shirts of Bioware's fandom would disagree, Shepard's story is not necessarily "done". For me, Mass Effect is Shepard, the Normandy, his/her crew and their experiences/adventures etc. Andromeda is only a spin-off.
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