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Post by Monica21 on Jun 1, 2021 22:17:08 GMT
Generally, when someone requests to be heard, I don't arbitrarily shut them down by shooting them. Generally, when I want someone to hear me out, I don't pull a gun on them.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2021 22:36:49 GMT
Generally, when someone requests to be heard, I don't arbitrarily shut them down by shooting them. Generally, when I want someone to hear me out, I don't pull a gun on them. Simon Atwell (Bring Down the Sky - ME1) actually shoots at you... Are you saying Shepard should have shot him right away as well? So does 'Lizbeth Baynam... shoot her too? What about Shiala - she makes your life absolute hell when you're trying to take down the Thorian and yet you have no choice but to hear her out and let her into your head before you can decide whether or not to shoot her.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 1, 2021 23:51:19 GMT
I don't know how unpopular this is here, but trying to talk Wrex down on Virmire is irresponsible. While not technically a member of the crew he's still under Shepard's command. He's blasting his shotgun into the water and then points it at Shepard's face. If there were an option to send him back to the Normandy and drop kick him off at the next port I would, but Shepard doesn't have that option. She's just got a mad Krogan on her squad and there's no in-game reason to trust that he won't turn on Shepard once inside Saren's facility. Since the only options are Kill or Don't Kill, the cleanest thing to do is Kill. Wrex is just a stupid krogan. he's one of the reason's why I don't cure the genophage. He raises his weapon at Shepard. Sure he can kill Shepard, but the other squadmates, and the salarian soldiers would gun him down. So what did he accomplish? Nothing. A lot of good he did for his species. What would have been better for him, is to flip the bird at Shepard to go after the cure before the place is blown up. When Shepard reaches that part of the facility, Wrex is on the ground injured. But that can't happen. His shotgun wouldn't let him do that. The same thing happens in ME3. Don't cure the genophage, he shows up on the Citadel to kill Shepard. The problem with that, he takes away any chance for his species to have it cured. If he keeps the audio file, he can use it as evidence that his species lived up to their end of the bargain whereas Shepard didn't. What would the council do? Don't know. Instead he'll go down in history as the worst leader the krogan ever had. And yes, he is dumber than his brother Wreav.
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Monica21
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Post by Monica21 on Jun 2, 2021 0:47:06 GMT
Generally, when I want someone to hear me out, I don't pull a gun on them. Simon Atwell (Bring Down the Sky - ME1) actually shoots at you... Are you saying Shepard should have shot him right away as well? So does 'Lizbeth Baynam... shoot her too? What about Shiala - she makes your life absolute hell when you're trying to take down the Thorian and yet you have no choice but to hear her out and let her into your head before you can decide whether or not to shoot her. Are you comparing an angry Krogan with a shotgun to two scared civilians and an Asari commando that you can kill?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2021 1:46:03 GMT
If you don't shoot him, he comes around during that conversation on Virmire... puts away the shotgun and tells you that, although he doesn't like it, he trusts you enough to follow your lead. If you take him through the breeding facilities, he follows your orders throughout basically without question. Afterwards, Shepard can basically tell him that he/she appreciates what he did on Virmire by backing down. I know all of this. My unpopular opinion remains that it's irresponsible to talk Wrex down on Virmire. Shep doesn't have the luxury of metagaming and needs to know that she's got control of her crew. Allowing a crew member to stick a gun in her face with zero repercussions is irresponsible. That's why I posted this in Unpopular Opinions. To me, this is a good unpopular opinion, as I certainly don't like it. But I understand your reasoning, and I guess mine takes headcanon. I like martial arts, and this has translated into 40 years of giddily punching and kicking enemy sprites on screens. ME1 melee was accidental almost, and I wasted time trying to do it. ME2 gave me a button and I never looked back. Long story short too late - My Shep is a CQC trained Spacer Marine with Biotics. Pointing a gun at him is funny, unless it's a Claymore. Wrex didn't have a Claymore, he had some Pyjak piece of trash, and Shep isn't really scared. In my True Story ™️ I immediately disarm Wrex and choke him to sleep. The funny thing about Krogan physiology, is that they don't have redundancy for breathing (afaik they can't breathe out of arse or peehole). A simple rear naked choke after an outside fireman's carry - jumping biotic knee to the armpit - put the hooks in and rock to sleep. Make jokes with Kirrahe, then wake his groggy ass up and explain to him the hilarious error of his ways. And give him a choice. But that's my Shep. You are entitled to yours, and having a gun pulled in your face results in instant ass-kicking at minimum, and likely a deserved death. I like aliens better than humans, so he got a second chance.
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Post by Monica21 on Jun 2, 2021 2:08:37 GMT
But that's my Shep. You are entitled to yours, and having a gun pulled in your face results in instant ass-kicking at minimum, and likely a deserved death. I like aliens better than humans, so he got a second chance. I appreciate that. And I'll be completely honest, this Virmire decision mostly stems from ME3 and Priority: Tuchanka. If Wrex is alive that mission ends up essentially being a choice between Wrex and Mordin, and I just like Mordin more. (And I can also never find a good reason to cure the genophage but that's a different Unpopular Opinion.) I've played Tuchanka every way you can. I've let Mordin sacrifice himself, I've shot him, I've talked him out of it, and I've let Wrex live and join the final battle and I've also let him live and then later killed him on the Citadel. Wrex has just never been a character that resonates with me while just about every other character does. It's just simpler to get rid of Wrex early on, because that's my preferred gameplay. I'll have playthroughs where that doesn't happen of course, but it always just feels like I'm playing it wrong.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 2, 2021 14:00:18 GMT
Meanwhile murdering a soldier under your command because they are upset is the responsible choice? You do realize that in the scenario, as written, Wrex pulled a shotgun out and pointed it at Shepard's face? Under what circumstances is this anything other than self-defense?
edited to add: Wrex is not a soldier. He's just a merc you pulled from the Citadel because he might be useful. Well, on Virmire he outlives his usefulness.
And this is why I don't understand how Wrex was such a fan favorite; or even how the narrative justifies him being a 'smart' or 'different' Krogan. This a character that pulls a gun on you the moment you go against his demands (twice), he's a borderline sociopath with how much he enjoys killing; but according to the narrative he's (aparently) the most diplomatic Krogan to grace his species, and he's an unbelievably racist and/or an asshole to everyone he meets. No, the actual 'smart' and 'different' Krogan I saw during my playthrough was Char.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 2, 2021 14:12:26 GMT
You do realize that in the scenario, as written, Wrex pulled a shotgun out and pointed it at Shepard's face? Under what circumstances is this anything other than self-defense?
edited to add: Wrex is not a soldier. He's just a merc you pulled from the Citadel because he might be useful. Well, on Virmire he outlives his usefulness.
And this is why I don't understand how Wrex was such a fan favorite; or even how the narrative justifies him being a 'smart' or 'different' Krogan. This a character that pulls a gun on you the moment you go against his demands (twice), he's a borderline sociopath with how much he enjoys killing; but according to the narrative he's (aparently) the most diplomatic Krogan to grace his species, and he's an unbelievably racist and/or an asshole to everyone he meets. No, the actual 'smart' and 'different' Krogan I saw during my playthrough was Char. The bold explains the "fan favorite" part. And compared to his brother Wreav, Wrex is diplomatic...
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Post by 14thcommander on Jun 2, 2021 16:00:20 GMT
To defend the Krogans here, I get that they're angry. And I get why Wrex would be pissed if Shepard would go behind his back, tell him they'll do it and after he finally has hope for his people, Shepard pulls the plug? It's understandable. And up to that point in ME2 Wrex has become a really good leader. Dealing with Reeves is a nightmare and he's annoying AF if Shepard kills Wrex in Virmire.
Personally, I think curing it is the right option to give them a second chance but I understand how chemical neutering is a grey issue. In reality, both choices would have both bad and good consequences, but the game likes to show Paragon actions as the 'good' option so that's where lies the real issue. They didn't show the possible issues that comes with curing the Genophage, just that they live happily ever after because they can make babies again, which is a bit too unrealistic and optimistic.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 2, 2021 16:12:20 GMT
The whole Tuchunka arc in ME3 is designed to whitewash the Krogan and make the player feel like a real douche nozzle for refusing to help cure the Genophage.
From the cartoonishly one dimensional Salarian dalatrass to being forced to shoot Mordin in the back (if alive and completed his loyalty mission in ME2) to having your otherwise ruthlessly Renegade Shepard look all melancholic at the thought of betraying the Krogan the whole arc was a textbook definition of narrative bias.
Even choosing to sabotage the cure from a purely time sensitive perspective; after all, the Reapers aren't going to wait around while the galaxy finishes playing doctor; makes no sense seeing as how you still have to go through the entire process with the Shroud anyway. No, it's quite obvious the choice the writers wanted the players to make and they go out of their way to make sabotaging it come across as petty and heartless.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 2, 2021 16:35:50 GMT
Sabotaging the cure is the better choice. Doesn't matter if Wrex or Wreav are in charge. Shepard is trying to get as many resources needed to destroy the reapers. The cure doesn't matter if the reapers win. If the reapers are destroyed, at least there's a possibility the council might find a cure for them after they helped. But because Wrex is controlled by his shotgun, he threw that opportunity away. Even though the file says something doesn't mean that it happened. Did the krogan somehow have a doctor verify the cure was sabotaged? One explanation could be there wasn't enough time to do a full complete test. If it's cured, why doesn't Wrex mention anything about the audio file? I would guess because Wrex is an ME1 character that Bioware doesn't want anything bad happening to him. Look at the Citadel dlc. They made Wrex a squadmate yet ignored all the ME2 squadmates minus the turian and quarian. I would be curious what the reaction would be from Wreav hearing that audio file.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2021 16:48:29 GMT
Simon Atwell (Bring Down the Sky - ME1) actually shoots at you... Are you saying Shepard should have shot him right away as well? So does 'Lizbeth Baynam... shoot her too? What about Shiala - she makes your life absolute hell when you're trying to take down the Thorian and yet you have no choice but to hear her out and let her into your head before you can decide whether or not to shoot her. Are you comparing an angry Krogan with a shotgun to two scared civilians and an Asari commando that you can kill? You're the one going on about metagaming and what Shepard does and doesn't know at those moments. I say your decision to always shoot Wrex is based on the metagame knowledge that doing so will ultimately save Mordin... not on any legitimate reaction over Wrex waving a gun at you.
For example, for all Shepard really knows at the time, Shiala could be the one influencing the Thorian, rather than vice versa. All he/she knows is the Asari that the Thorian periodically poops out definitely wants to kill him/her and his/her crew.
Also, there's the real-life example... Would you want cops to arbitrarily shoot every black youth who waves a gun at them... or would you prefer they wait a second or too to determine what is really going on first?
Wrex does not initiate the coversation by threatening Shepard. He's shooting the water, but initiates the conversation with "This is isn't right, Shepard." He doesn't raise his shotgun right away either.
So, I think you're the one metagamining and trying to justify it "rationally." But, IRL, it's not rational. In the game even, it's not rational. Shepard doesn't instantly react to a raised weapon by shooting the person raising it... He/she talks to them first.
Furthermore, if Shepard just distrusts the krogan, Shepard has no business accepting Wrex to be on his/her squad in the first place... and he/she does have the option to just leave him on the Citadel at the beginning of the game. Since coming onto your crew, Wrex has done nothing to make Shepard suspicious of him... he's likely watched your back on at least one mission (his loyalty one) and probably a few more (since you liked his powers enough to recruit him). If he wanted you dead, he could have shot you at any time.
Also note - I'm not advocating for or against curing the genophage here... just that just shooting Wrex without talking with him (since you stipulated that talking to him is irresponsible) is "out of character" in the game for even the most renegade of Shepards. Renegade Shepard doesn't even walk into Darius' lair on Nonuel and shoot him right away. There's at least one line of dialogue that occurs before that option comes up.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 2, 2021 16:48:40 GMT
Sabotaging the cure is the better choice. Doesn't matter if Wrex or Wreav are in charge. Shepard is trying to get as many resources needed to destroy the reapers. The cure doesn't matter if the reapers win. If the reapers are destroyed, at least there's a possibility the council might find a cure for them after they helped. But because Wrex is controlled by his shotgun, he threw that opportunity away. Even though the file says something doesn't mean that it happened. Did the krogan somehow have a doctor verify the cure was sabotaged? One explanation could be there wasn't enough time to do a full complete test. If it's cured, why doesn't Wrex mention anything about the audio file? I would guess because Wrex is an ME1 character that Bioware doesn't want anything bad happening to him. Look at the Citadel dlc. They made Wrex a squadmate yet ignored all the ME2 squadmates minus the turian and quarian. I would be curious what the reaction would be from Wreav hearing that audio file. My Shepard would be on board with a cure, and he was all for finding a way to lessen the effects of it (within reason) prior to game three, but as soon as Wrex said that he wanted a cure or he would sit back and let the rest of the galaxy die is the moment I stopped empathizing with him. It would have been one thing to say that in the post war politics that Shepard would guarantee Alliance support pushing for a cure, or even to say that the cure would be worked on alongside the war efforts as long as we could get Krogan boots on the ground now, but no. Wrex, again speaking through his gun, holds the entire galaxy hostage to force a cure. He doesn't even send a battalion or two as a gesture of goodwill when his asinine demand is agreed to. Instead he holds all his forces back and then proceeds to insult and berate the very forces fighting and dying to see the cure administered.
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Post by 14thcommander on Jun 2, 2021 17:11:35 GMT
The whole Tuchunka arc in ME3 is designed to whitewash the Krogan and make the player feel like a real douche nozzle for refusing to help cure the Genophage. From the cartoonishly one dimensional Salarian dalatrass to being forced to shoot Mordin in the back (if alive and completed his loyalty mission in ME2) to having your otherwise ruthlessly Renegade Shepard look all melancholic at the thought of betraying the Krogan the whole arc was a textbook definition of narrative bias. Even choosing to sabotage the cure from a purely time sensitive perspective; after all, the Reapers aren't going to wait around while the galaxy finishes playing doctor; makes no sense seeing as how you still have to go through the entire process with the Shroud anyway. No, it's quite obvious the choice the writers wanted the players to make and they go out of their way to make sabotaging it come across as petty and heartless. That's a very good point, the game definitely does force some options as right when it gives you the option to choose both. Playing Renegade is making me realizes this happens quite a lot actually since it's the first time I do so.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 2, 2021 17:20:36 GMT
Wrex, again speaking through his gun, holds the entire galaxy hostage to force a cure. He doesn't even send a battalion or two as a gesture of goodwill when his asinine demand is agreed to. Instead he holds all his forces back and then proceeds to insult and berate the very forces fighting and dying to see the cure administered. Yep. Doing that would put the ball in everyone else's court. It would also be an extra brownie point for the species, if the cure was sabotaged. Had Wrex done that, and Wreav too, and Wrex not getting stupid, I would consider giving them a sit on the council, if not, at least have them reside on the Citadel with one of their own as an Ambassador
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Post by Monica21 on Jun 3, 2021 0:51:17 GMT
You're the one going on about metagaming and what Shepard does and doesn't know at those moments. I say your decision to always shoot Wrex is based on the metagame knowledge that doing so will ultimately save Mordin... not on any legitimate reaction over Wrex waving a gun at you. As much as I appreciate you trying to talk me out of my unpopular on the Unpopular Opinions forum, the only thing that matters is Wrex waving a gun at me. That's it.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jun 3, 2021 0:54:49 GMT
I wished that you could kill the rachni queen in ME1 or 3 with a big can of bug spray...
... Or a massive fly swatter. 😆
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 2:49:54 GMT
You're the one going on about metagaming and what Shepard does and doesn't know at those moments. I say your decision to always shoot Wrex is based on the metagame knowledge that doing so will ultimately save Mordin... not on any legitimate reaction over Wrex waving a gun at you. As much as I appreciate you trying to talk me out of my unpopular on the Unpopular Opinions forum, the only thing that matters is Wrex waving a gun at me. That's it. I am not trying to talk you out of shooting Wrex. I don't care. What you said it that it is irresponsible to talk to him. I disagree with that... because the responsible thing for a real world cop to do is to talk to someone, find out why they are waving a gun around. and to talk them down if they can. Shooting Wrex just because he's krogan equates to a cop shooting a black youth just because he's black. I cannot agree with that. I won't.
It seems to me, unfortunately, my opinion is more unpopular than yours here.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 3, 2021 3:29:51 GMT
As much as I appreciate you trying to talk me out of my unpopular on the Unpopular Opinions forum, the only thing that matters is Wrex waving a gun at me. That's it. I am not trying to talk you out of shooting Wrex. I don't care. What you said it that it is irresponsible to talk to him. I disagree with that... because the responsible thing for a real world cop to do is to talk to someone, find out why they are waving a gun around. and to talk them down if they can. Shooting Wrex just because he's krogan equates to a cop shooting a black youth just because he's black. I cannot agree with that. I won't.
It seems to me, unfortunately, my opinion is more unpopular than yours here.
Except that no one is saying that they shoot Wrex because he's a Krogan, they shoot him because he pulls a gun on a military officer in the middle of a combat zone. If anyone else would have done that its grounds for shooting them in self defense.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jun 3, 2021 6:44:07 GMT
The whole military affair in OT is very off putting for me these days.
I hope we dont touch any military stuff in future ME's, at least not go full on war like in 3rd.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 3, 2021 7:53:45 GMT
As much as I appreciate you trying to talk me out of my unpopular on the Unpopular Opinions forum, the only thing that matters is Wrex waving a gun at me. That's it. I am not trying to talk you out of shooting Wrex. I don't care. What you said it that it is irresponsible to talk to him. I disagree with that... because the responsible thing for a real world cop to do is to talk to someone, find out why they are waving a gun around. and to talk them down if they can. Shooting Wrex just because he's krogan equates to a cop shooting a black youth just because he's black. I cannot agree with that. I won't.
It seems to me, unfortunately, my opinion is more unpopular than yours here.
Real world cops don't have shields. Which is the only thing that really makes Sheps actions justifiable here considering they are likely to survive a single shot and thus has options.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jun 3, 2021 8:11:45 GMT
The Krogan brought the Genophage upon themselves. They're barbaric cavemen with nuclear weapons whose only interest is killing and trying to mate.
Screw the Geth. Bioware might have forgotten about that freighter of innocent people that went beyond the veil and got impaled on Dragon's Teeth, but I never fucking will. Their fake, lazy Pinocchio story only ruins a unique aspect of the setting. Millions of dead Quarian babies because they want to be a real boy. Fuck em all.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 11:17:39 GMT
I am not trying to talk you out of shooting Wrex. I don't care. What you said it that it is irresponsible to talk to him. I disagree with that... because the responsible thing for a real world cop to do is to talk to someone, find out why they are waving a gun around. and to talk them down if they can. Shooting Wrex just because he's krogan equates to a cop shooting a black youth just because he's black. I cannot agree with that. I won't.
It seems to me, unfortunately, my opinion is more unpopular than yours here.
Real world cops don't have shields. Which is the only thing that really makes Sheps actions justifiable here considering they are likely to survive a single shot and thus has options. Both Wrex and Shepard have shields. I would say equipment is as equivalent... or there's a chance IRL that it is the cop who is less armed (depending on the jurisdiction, of course). Look at the scene. Wrex does not raise his shotgun until well into the conversation after basically pleading with Shepard to "Help me out here, Shepard. The lines between friend and foe are getting blurry from where I stand."... and Shepard has a history with Wrex watching his/her back. That's why the Family Armor quest can allow Shepard to save Wrex even if Shepard's karma is insufficient to use the Charm/Intimidate options. If Shepard cannot use either, then Shepard's pre-planned backup kicks in (i.e. Ashley will shoot Wrex) just like a sniper set up to take a shot on a perpetrator if negotiations with the police negotiator go south.
Again, I feel that shooting Wrex just because he's krogan is wrong. It's racial profiling made worse by the fact that Shepard knows Wrex and Wrex has done nothing wrong to Shepard to that point in the game.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 3, 2021 11:23:55 GMT
What's funny about the krogan moment on Virmire, is Shepard can be really mean to Wrex and all that, but if the turian and asari are not on the squad, the krogan will stand down no matter what.
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Post by Buckeldemon on Jun 3, 2021 12:26:03 GMT
^ That's perhaps because we otherwise would not have a full party, as both humans are called off at some point.
Anyway, I kinda agree with a notion I've seen around a few times that the more humanoid aliens are kinda often treated with more deferrence or compassion, perhaps more so than a player would like, while the others are turned into laughingstocks (Volus, Hanar, Elcor and especially the Rachni). Also, why the heck are Rachni and Krogan somehow pitted as opposites? I don't follow. Yes, the Salarians used the Krogan as battletoads attack dogs against the Rachni, but that's it.
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