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Post by themikefest on Jun 3, 2021 12:32:44 GMT
^ That's perhaps because we otherwise would not have a full party, as both humans are called off at some point. That is the reason. I'm just pointing out how bad Shepard can treat the krogan, and still have him stand down.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 13:06:14 GMT
^ That's perhaps because we otherwise would not have a full party, as both humans are called off at some point. That is the reason. I'm just pointing out how bad Shepard can treat the krogan, and still have him stand down. That's pretty essential though to get through Virmire since you eventually have both Ashley and Kaidan unavailable. If you were able to shoot Wrex, you'd only have Tali left to put on your squad to face Saren..
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 3, 2021 13:19:13 GMT
Anyway, I kinda agree with a notion I've seen around a few times that the more humanoid aliens are kinda often treated with more deferrence or compassion, perhaps more so than a player would like, while the others are turned into laughingstocks (Volus, Hanar, Elcor and especially the Rachni). Also, why the heck are Rachni and Krogan somehow pitted as opposites? I don't follow. Yes, the Salarians used the Krogan as battletoads attack dogs against the Rachni, but that's it. That is something I have noticed as well. The Rachni plot in the trilogy is nearly identical to the Krogan in that they are both: assumed to be brutish/animalistic, both were used as cannon fodder for more advanced species in their wars, and then they were both severely diminished in numbers when they got out of hand. What's more, they both present the player, over the course of the trilogy, the question as to wether they deserve a second chance, if they are capable of changing their ways and being a part of a galaxy that would otherwise view them as monsters. Yet, somehow, the Krogan are the one's the narrative roots for while the Rachni are treated as ultimately disposable with not one character bating an eye should Shepard choose to wipe them out. Even though, out of the two of them, its the Rachni that do more to show they are willing to work with the galaxy against the incoming invasion as well as living peaceably with the rest of the galaxy. The queen isn't demanding restitutions for past wrongs before she agrees to help, the Rachni don't feel they are owed anything by the rest of the galactic community like the Krogan are.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 13:27:29 GMT
Anyway, I kinda agree with a notion I've seen around a few times that the more humanoid aliens are kinda often treated with more deferrence or compassion, perhaps more so than a player would like, while the others are turned into laughingstocks (Volus, Hanar, Elcor and especially the Rachni). Also, why the heck are Rachni and Krogan somehow pitted as opposites? I don't follow. Yes, the Salarians used the Krogan as battletoads attack dogs against the Rachni, but that's it. That is something I have noticed as well. The Rachni plot in the trilogy is nearly identical to the Krogan in that they are both: assumed to be brutish/animalistic, both were used as cannon fodder for more advanced species in their wars, and then they were both severely diminished in numbers when they got out of hand. What's more, they both present the player, over the course of the trilogy, the question as to wether they deserve a second chance, if they are capable of changing their ways and being a part of a galaxy that would otherwise view them as monsters. Yet, somehow, the Krogan are the one's the narrative roots for while the Rachni are treated as ultimately disposable with not one character bating an eye should Shepard choose to wipe them out. Even though, out of the two of them, its the Rachni that do more to show they are willing to work with the galaxy against the incoming invasion as well as living peaceably with the rest of the galaxy. The queen isn't demanding restitutions for past wrongs before she agrees to help, the Rachni don't feel they are owed anything by the rest of the galactic community. Of the other species... who would bat an eye if Shepard eliminated the Krogan? In ME3, Garrus asks if just letting the bomb go off could be an option. The Krogan have more "living" representatives to put their own case forward to Shepard. He only talks to one rachni in ME1 and ME3 (if she lives). If she dies in ME1, then Shepard gets to talk to a second Rachni, who has been genetically changed/manufactured to breed, not rachni, but Ravagers. The Rachni were put into the game as a "disposable" species from the start, along with the Vorcha and the Yahg (also as the assumed analmistic/brutish species). In ME2, Vorcha are assumed to be too dumb to create the plague and, in ME3, the yahg are next in line for uplift... either by the Salarians or by the Reapers leaving them alive). The krogan were given the more primary role... the species selected that Shepard could get to know better. Designating primary and secondary characters is a necessary thing in fiction.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 3, 2021 13:51:34 GMT
That is something I have noticed as well. The Rachni plot in the trilogy is nearly identical to the Krogan in that they are both: assumed to be brutish/animalistic, both were used as cannon fodder for more advanced species in their wars, and then they were both severely diminished in numbers when they got out of hand. What's more, they both present the player, over the course of the trilogy, the question as to wether they deserve a second chance, if they are capable of changing their ways and being a part of a galaxy that would otherwise view them as monsters. Yet, somehow, the Krogan are the one's the narrative roots for while the Rachni are treated as ultimately disposable with not one character bating an eye should Shepard choose to wipe them out. Even though, out of the two of them, its the Rachni that do more to show they are willing to work with the galaxy against the incoming invasion as well as living peaceably with the rest of the galaxy. The queen isn't demanding restitutions for past wrongs before she agrees to help, the Rachni don't feel they are owed anything by the rest of the galactic community. Of the other species... who would bat an eye if Shepard eliminated the Krogan? In ME3, Garrus asks if just letting the bomb go off could be an option. The Krogan have more "living" representatives to put their own case forward to Shepard. He only talks to one rachni in ME1 and ME3 (if she lives). If she dies in ME1, then Shepard gets to talk to a second Rachni, who has been genetically changed/manufactured to breed, not rachni, but Ravagers. The Rachni were put into the game as a "disposable" species from the start, along with the Vorcha and the Yahg (also as the assumed analmistic/brutish species). In ME2, Vorcha are assumed to be too dumb to create the plague and, in ME3, the yahg are next in line for uplift... either by the Salarians or by the Reapers leaving them alive). The krogan were given the more primary role... the species selected that Shepard could get to know better. Designating primary and secondary characters is a necessary thing in fiction. The narrative, for starters, cares a great deal if one chooses to sabotage the cure in ME3. Even the most hardened and ruthless of Renegade Shepards will look melancholic at the betrayal of the Krogan, not to mention characters like Liara commenting at how happy they are that the cure has been administered (not knowing of the sabotage) saying how the player did the right thing. The Rachni, on the other hand, get quips from Joker about how much he wouldn't mind "nuking them from orbit" because of how creepy they are with even the brightest of Paragons being able to join in on the casual specisim of joking about genocide. And secondary plot species or not, there is no denying how similar the Krogan and Rachni's narrative arcs are. The Vorcha and Yahg are also minor species yes, but they don't even come close to mirroring the Krogan plot like the Rachni do. If you were to swap backstories and histories between the two the Rachni and Krogan are nearly identical, yet despite this incredible similarity one is deemed worthwhile in the eyes of the plot and players and the other is not.
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Post by Monica21 on Jun 3, 2021 14:05:09 GMT
because the responsible thing for a real world cop to do is to talk to someone, find out why they are waving a gun around. and to talk them down if they can. Shooting Wrex just because he's krogan equates to a cop shooting a black youth just because he's black. I cannot agree with that. I won't. Since you probably don't know this I'll be the one to break the bad news; if a cop in the real world has a gun shoved in his face then he absolutely has the right the shoot the person with the weapon. And that's also literally true for the majority of the population (at least in the United States) who are neither police officers nor members of the military.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 14:41:22 GMT
Of the other species... who would bat an eye if Shepard eliminated the Krogan? In ME3, Garrus asks if just letting the bomb go off could be an option. The Krogan have more "living" representatives to put their own case forward to Shepard. He only talks to one rachni in ME1 and ME3 (if she lives). If she dies in ME1, then Shepard gets to talk to a second Rachni, who has been genetically changed/manufactured to breed, not rachni, but Ravagers. The Rachni were put into the game as a "disposable" species from the start, along with the Vorcha and the Yahg (also as the assumed analmistic/brutish species). In ME2, Vorcha are assumed to be too dumb to create the plague and, in ME3, the yahg are next in line for uplift... either by the Salarians or by the Reapers leaving them alive). The krogan were given the more primary role... the species selected that Shepard could get to know better. Designating primary and secondary characters is a necessary thing in fiction. The narrative, for starters, cares a great deal if one chooses to sabotage the cure in ME3. Even the most hardened and ruthless of Renegade Shepards will look melancholic at the betrayal of the Krogan, not to mention characters like Liara commenting at how happy they are that the cure has been administered (not knowing of the sabotage) saying how the player did the right thing. The Rachni, on the other hand, get quips from Joker about how much he wouldn't mind "nuking them from orbit" because of how creepy they are with even the brightest of Paragons being able to join in on the casual specisim of joking about genocide. And secondary plot species or not, there is no denying how similar the Krogan and Rachni's narrative arcs are. The Vorcha and Yahg are also minor species yes, but they don't even come close to mirroring the Krogan plot like the Rachni do. If you were to swap backstories and histories between the two the Rachni and Krogan are nearly identical, yet despite this incredible similarity one is deemed worthwhile in the eyes of the plot and players and the other is not. Not if Wreav is alive and Maelon's cure has been destroyed. Even Eve questions Wreav's ability to lead. Her reference to "some moments are destined to happen" could as easily be referring to her foreseeing that Shepard will have to sabotage the cure. Garrus will later applaud Shepard's choice... acknowledging that he was crafty in fooling Wreav. Liara OTOH is Liara... her opinions are hated by a lot of players anyways.
The genophage arc is one of the best in the game. If they gave the same attention to the Rachni, I think the Krogan arc would have "suffered" given the time crunch for ME3 development... and the reality is that the "difference" in priority was set in ME1. Shepard gets to know Wrex and gets to talk with multiple other Krogan (e.g. Inamorda, Jax, the bodyguard in Dr. Michel's assignment). Shepard only ever gets to have one short conversation with the Rachni Queen (who doesn't really know her people since "she was only an egg.")
The Yahg arc is one I would have seriously liked to see developed better. We meet our first yahg as he is The Shadow Broker... the master in the galaxy at buying and selling information that could topple governments... and who is obviously literate and sentient (not really in need of an uplift)... Only to have them appear in ME3 as grunting "hulk-ish" creatures. Some might be surprised to hear this from me... but I think installing Liara as the Shadow Broker was one of the worst mistakes Bioware made with the Trilogy's story.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 14:58:43 GMT
because the responsible thing for a real world cop to do is to talk to someone, find out why they are waving a gun around. and to talk them down if they can. Shooting Wrex just because he's krogan equates to a cop shooting a black youth just because he's black. I cannot agree with that. I won't. Since you probably don't know this I'll be the one to break the bad news; if a cop in the real world has a gun shoved in his face then he absolutely has the right the shoot the person with the weapon. And that's also literally true for the majority of the population (at least in the United States) who are neither police officers nor members of the military. He has the right to shoot... and then that's followed by riots in the streets when a black person is seemed to be shot just for being black. It's not irresponsible to talk to the perpetrator first to see if some other solution can be worked out. The cop still has to assess the actual risk. You asked me if I was comparing an "angry krogan" to "scared people waving a gun." I'll ask you... are you actually equating Wrex (your squad mate who had your back to that point in the game and did nothing to cause you to mistrust HIM as a person) to some rando "angry krogan."? If you do see Wrex only as a "angry Krogan,: then I say you have no business accepting him on your squad in the first place... where you absolutely have to trust the guy holding the gun behind your back.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 3, 2021 15:13:38 GMT
The narrative, for starters, cares a great deal if one chooses to sabotage the cure in ME3. Even the most hardened and ruthless of Renegade Shepards will look melancholic at the betrayal of the Krogan, not to mention characters like Liara commenting at how happy they are that the cure has been administered (not knowing of the sabotage) saying how the player did the right thing. The Rachni, on the other hand, get quips from Joker about how much he wouldn't mind "nuking them from orbit" because of how creepy they are with even the brightest of Paragons being able to join in on the casual specisim of joking about genocide. And secondary plot species or not, there is no denying how similar the Krogan and Rachni's narrative arcs are. The Vorcha and Yahg are also minor species yes, but they don't even come close to mirroring the Krogan plot like the Rachni do. If you were to swap backstories and histories between the two the Rachni and Krogan are nearly identical, yet despite this incredible similarity one is deemed worthwhile in the eyes of the plot and players and the other is not. Not if Wreav is alive and Maelon's cure has been destroyed. Even Eve questions Wreav's ability to lead. Her reference to "some moments are destined to happen" could as easily be referring to her foreseeing that Shepard will have to sabotage the cure. Garrus will later applaud Shepard's choice... acknowledging that he was crafty in fooling Wreav. Liara OTOH is Liara... her opinions are hated by a lot of players anyways.
The genophage arc is one of the best in the game. If they gave the same attention to the Rachni, I think the Krogan arc would have "suffered" given the time crunch for ME3 development... and the reality is that the "difference" in priority was set in ME1. Shepard gets to know Wrex and gets to talk with multiple other Krogan (e.g. Inamorda, Jax, the bodyguard in Dr. Michel's assignment). Shepard only ever gets to have one short conversation with the Rachni Queen (who doesn't really know her people since "she was only an egg.")
The Yahg arc is one I would have seriously liked to see developed better. We meet our first yahg as he is The Shadow Broker... the master in the galaxy at buying and selling information that could topple governments... and who is obviously literate and sentient (not really in need of an uplift)... Only to have them appear in ME3 as grunting "hulk-ish" creatures. Some might be surprised to hear this from me... but I think installing Liara as the Shadow Broker was one of the worst mistakes Bioware made with the Trilogy's story.
I think the Genophage arc would have been better if it was more nuanced in it's approach. In ME 1 you have a more balanced take on the reasoning behind it, and you can reasonably be for the deployment of the Genophage without also being a Krogan hating bigot. In ME 3 all that is gone. The position one could take in previous games has been personified with the Dalatrass; who is Snidely Whiplash levels of caricature; and on top of that, the player can't even bring up logistical concerns, such as the Reapers literally killing everyone, to be a legitimate reason why putting the war effort on hold to play doctor would be a very bad idea. What's more, Shepard is unable to push back on Wrex for both his demand nor for his actions during the whole arc. From nearly causing a firefight on Sur'kesh, to Wrex making speciest comments to Salarian soldiers, from him denigrating Turian support at every opportunity to him basically laughing in Victus' face when his son dies defusing the bomb; in order to save Krogan civilians; all of this happens and Shepard is unable to call Wrex out on his behavior. The only options the game gives you is to either passively sit by while Wrex is a colossal asshole, or join in on the insults because 'hey the Krogan are the blameless good guys in this story so it's okay to be insulting to your allies'. The best version of the Priority: Tuchunka plot for me would have been given the option to go with the Rachni as the chosen ground forces; provided you saved her in ME 1. Excusing the arguably superior fact that Rachni would make for better ground forces, it would also have been massively satisfying to take the wind out of Wrex's self-righteous sails and force him back to the negotiating table.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2021 17:04:59 GMT
Not if Wreav is alive and Maelon's cure has been destroyed. Even Eve questions Wreav's ability to lead. Her reference to "some moments are destined to happen" could as easily be referring to her foreseeing that Shepard will have to sabotage the cure. Garrus will later applaud Shepard's choice... acknowledging that he was crafty in fooling Wreav. Liara OTOH is Liara... her opinions are hated by a lot of players anyways.
The genophage arc is one of the best in the game. If they gave the same attention to the Rachni, I think the Krogan arc would have "suffered" given the time crunch for ME3 development... and the reality is that the "difference" in priority was set in ME1. Shepard gets to know Wrex and gets to talk with multiple other Krogan (e.g. Inamorda, Jax, the bodyguard in Dr. Michel's assignment). Shepard only ever gets to have one short conversation with the Rachni Queen (who doesn't really know her people since "she was only an egg.")
The Yahg arc is one I would have seriously liked to see developed better. We meet our first yahg as he is The Shadow Broker... the master in the galaxy at buying and selling information that could topple governments... and who is obviously literate and sentient (not really in need of an uplift)... Only to have them appear in ME3 as grunting "hulk-ish" creatures. Some might be surprised to hear this from me... but I think installing Liara as the Shadow Broker was one of the worst mistakes Bioware made with the Trilogy's story.
I think the Genophage arc would have been better if it was more nuanced in it's approach. In ME 1 you have a more balanced take on the reasoning behind it, and you can reasonably be for the deployment of the Genophage without also being a Krogan hating bigot. In ME 3 all that is gone. The position one could take in previous games has been personified with the Dalatrass; who is Snidely Whiplash levels of caricature; and on top of that, the player can't even bring up logistical concerns, such as the Reapers literally killing everyone, to be a legitimate reason why putting the war effort on hold to play doctor would be a very bad idea. What's more, Shepard is unable to push back on Wrex for both his demand nor for his actions during the whole arc. From nearly causing a firefight on Sur'kesh, to Wrex making speciest comments to Salarian soldiers, from him denigrating Turian support at every opportunity to him basically laughing in Victus' face when his son dies defusing the bomb; in order to save Krogan civilians; all of this happens and Shepard is unable to call Wrex out on his behavior. The only options the game gives you is to either passively sit by while Wrex is a colossal asshole, or join in on the insults because 'hey the Krogan are the blameless good guys in this story so it's okay to be insulting to your allies'. The best version of the Priority: Tuchunka plot for me would have been given the option to go with the Rachni as the chosen ground forces; provided you saved her in ME 1. Excusing the arguably superior fact that Rachni would make for better ground forces, it would also have been massively satisfying to take the wind out of Wrex's self-righteous sails and force him back to the negotiating table. I think given the time and probably other restrictuion like number of VA'd lines of dialogue, they did a pretty darned good job of nuancing the Krogan Arc. As I said, even Eve can be alluding to Shepard having to sabotage the cure because she believes Wreav is a tyrant... and that's BECAUSE the lien regarding the moment being destined is so vague. Interpreting that one line in that way makes her complicit with Shepard, even though she knows that she must keep up appearances and sacrifice her life for a cure that won't happen. Things could always be done better in a perfect world... but can they realistically be done better given the constraints Bioware was placed under by EA and the imperfect story to that point beiginning in ME1 and through ME2?
Another example, I played a Shepard who was on the side of the Krogan, but was tempted by the Dalatrass' offer. In the shuttle, he kept quiet and in the shroud he allowed things to escalate with Mordin until the interrupt to shoot Mordin in the back came up. I didn't use that interrupt and the mere act of Shepard throwing the Carnifex away (the gun Mordin gave him in ME2) was so powerful... then later as Wrex is going on about how great Mordin was and Shepard responded with "someone else might have gotten in wrong." It really felt like the "someone else" Shepard was referring was himself. Eve had said the same lines as she did when Wreav was in power, but this time Shepard knew she thought Wrex would be a great leader and that she could influence him to bring about a cultural renaissance to the krogan and get the males to stop fighting so much. The "destined moment" then was her foreseeing that Shepard would back down and the genophage would ultimately be cured on that day.
I'm not defending All the writing in ME3 and, for the most part, players will ALWAYS find ways in which an RPG doesn't perfectly express or adapt to what THEY want their PC to be... but, when such varied an opposing meanings can emerge from dialogue as shown in the Krogan arc, I abosolutely think... That's GREAT writing. (a very unpopular opinion when it comes to ME3, but nothing is going to convince me to change it).
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Post by colfoley on Jun 3, 2021 18:27:35 GMT
I think the Genophage arc would have been better if it was more nuanced in it's approach. In ME 1 you have a more balanced take on the reasoning behind it, and you can reasonably be for the deployment of the Genophage without also being a Krogan hating bigot. In ME 3 all that is gone. The position one could take in previous games has been personified with the Dalatrass; who is Snidely Whiplash levels of caricature; and on top of that, the player can't even bring up logistical concerns, such as the Reapers literally killing everyone, to be a legitimate reason why putting the war effort on hold to play doctor would be a very bad idea. What's more, Shepard is unable to push back on Wrex for both his demand nor for his actions during the whole arc. From nearly causing a firefight on Sur'kesh, to Wrex making speciest comments to Salarian soldiers, from him denigrating Turian support at every opportunity to him basically laughing in Victus' face when his son dies defusing the bomb; in order to save Krogan civilians; all of this happens and Shepard is unable to call Wrex out on his behavior. The only options the game gives you is to either passively sit by while Wrex is a colossal asshole, or join in on the insults because 'hey the Krogan are the blameless good guys in this story so it's okay to be insulting to your allies'. The best version of the Priority: Tuchunka plot for me would have been given the option to go with the Rachni as the chosen ground forces; provided you saved her in ME 1. Excusing the arguably superior fact that Rachni would make for better ground forces, it would also have been massively satisfying to take the wind out of Wrex's self-righteous sails and force him back to the negotiating table. I think given the time and probably other restrictuion like number of VA'd lines of dialogue, they did a pretty darned good job of nuancing the Krogan Arc. As I said, even Eve can be alluding to Shepard having to sabotage the cure because she believes Wreav is a tyrant... and that's BECAUSE the lien regarding the moment being destined is so vague. Interpreting that one line in that way makes her complicit with Shepard, even though she knows that she must keep up appearances and sacrifice her life for a cure that won't happen. Things could always be done better in a perfect world... but can they realistically be done better given the constraints Bioware was placed under by EA and the imperfect story to that point beiginning in ME1 and through ME2?
Another example, I played a Shepard who was on the side of the Krogan, but was tempted by the Dalatrass' offer. In the shuttle, he kept quiet and in the shroud he allowed things to escalate with Mordin until the interrupt to shoot Mordin in the back came up. I didn't use that interrupt and the mere act of Shepard throwing the Carnifex away (the gun Mordin gave him in ME2) was so powerful... then later as Wrex is going on about how great Mordin was and Shepard responded with "someone else might have gotten in wrong." It really felt like the "someone else" Shepard was referring was himself. Eve had said the same lines as she did when Wreav was in power, but this time Shepard knew she thought Wrex would be a great leader and that she could influence him to bring about a cultural renaissance to the krogan and get the males to stop fighting so much. The "destined moment" then was her foreseeing that Shepard would back down and the genophage would ultimately be cured on that day.
I'm not defending All the writing in ME3 and, for the most part, players will ALWAYS find ways in which an RPG doesn't perfectly express or adapt to what THEY want their PC to be... but, when such varied an opposing meanings can emerge from dialogue as shown in the Krogan arc, I abosolutely think... That's GREAT writing. (a very unpopular opinion when it comes to ME3, but nothing is going to convince me to change it).
my Shepard had a similar thought, she was too practical of a womam to dismiss the dalatrass's offer out of hand. But in the end did tell them. I thought the writing during the Quarian and Krogan arcs were pretty great as a whole. Kinda wish you could renegade or charm the geth into peace but thats it. I just find the 'lack of nuance' argument kind of bizarre considering the geth were acting plenty sus in those events too, which you can then call them out on, and the difference between wrex and wreave is outstanding.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 4, 2021 1:33:56 GMT
I would have made it where both Wrex and Mordin have to be in ME3 to cure the genophage just like Tali and legion had to be in ME3 to get peace.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2021 2:20:04 GMT
I would have made it where both Wrex and Mordin have to be in ME3 to cure the genophage just like Tali and legion had to be in ME3 to get peace. I don't see the point in that. It is possible to cure the genophage with Wrex and Mordin in the game and it is still possible to not cure it with Wrex and Mordin in the game. The way it is offers more free choice to the player. It is more flexible, why add restrictions (is it because you don't like it when other people cure the genophage and you want to make it such that they select it less often?) I would instead add a scenario where it would be possible for Mordin to live eveni if the genophage is cured (perhaps by having a Engineer Shepard fix the sabotage herself/himself... allowing Mordin to safely go up to disperse the cure... i.e. making things more flexible, not less).
I also think the geth/quarian war should be able to be settled with both geth and quarians surviving even if Legion and Tali are not both in the game. One being present should be enough and the dialogue that would accomplish it be more dependent on Shepard's reputation (paragon vs. renegade score) at that point.
Again, not eliminating the options and paths that are already there... just adding even more options to each scenario for even greater RP flexibility. I don't care which of the options available are the most selected... or the least. The more options, the greater the ability to play the game in different ways on different runs.
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Post by Monica21 on Jun 4, 2021 12:00:55 GMT
Since you probably don't know this I'll be the one to break the bad news; if a cop in the real world has a gun shoved in his face then he absolutely has the right the shoot the person with the weapon. And that's also literally true for the majority of the population (at least in the United States) who are neither police officers nor members of the military. He has the right to shoot... and then that's followed by riots in the streets when a black person is seemed to be shot just for being black. It's not irresponsible to talk to the perpetrator first to see if some other solution can be worked out. The cop still has to assess the actual risk. You asked me if I was comparing an "angry krogan" to "scared people waving a gun." I'll ask you... are you actually equating Wrex (your squad mate who had your back to that point in the game and did nothing to cause you to mistrust HIM as a person) to some rando "angry krogan."? If you do see Wrex only as a "angry Krogan,: then I say you have no business accepting him on your squad in the first place... where you absolutely have to trust the guy holding the gun behind your back. Since this has absolutely nothing to do with Mass Effect anymore, and since I'd prefer to keep the conversation at least Mass Effect-adjacent, I'll just bow out. Have a nice day.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 4, 2021 14:07:45 GMT
I think given the time and probably other restrictuion like number of VA'd lines of dialogue, they did a pretty darned good job of nuancing the Krogan Arc. As I said, even Eve can be alluding to Shepard having to sabotage the cure because she believes Wreav is a tyrant... and that's BECAUSE the lien regarding the moment being destined is so vague. Interpreting that one line in that way makes her complicit with Shepard, even though she knows that she must keep up appearances and sacrifice her life for a cure that won't happen. Things could always be done better in a perfect world... but can they realistically be done better given the constraints Bioware was placed under by EA and the imperfect story to that point beiginning in ME1 and through ME2?
Another example, I played a Shepard who was on the side of the Krogan, but was tempted by the Dalatrass' offer. In the shuttle, he kept quiet and in the shroud he allowed things to escalate with Mordin until the interrupt to shoot Mordin in the back came up. I didn't use that interrupt and the mere act of Shepard throwing the Carnifex away (the gun Mordin gave him in ME2) was so powerful... then later as Wrex is going on about how great Mordin was and Shepard responded with "someone else might have gotten in wrong." It really felt like the "someone else" Shepard was referring was himself. Eve had said the same lines as she did when Wreav was in power, but this time Shepard knew she thought Wrex would be a great leader and that she could influence him to bring about a cultural renaissance to the krogan and get the males to stop fighting so much. The "destined moment" then was her foreseeing that Shepard would back down and the genophage would ultimately be cured on that day.
I'm not defending All the writing in ME3 and, for the most part, players will ALWAYS find ways in which an RPG doesn't perfectly express or adapt to what THEY want their PC to be... but, when such varied an opposing meanings can emerge from dialogue as shown in the Krogan arc, I abosolutely think... That's GREAT writing. (a very unpopular opinion when it comes to ME3, but nothing is going to convince me to change it).
my Shepard had a similar thought, she was too practical of a womam to dismiss the dalatrass's offer out of hand. But in the end did tell them. I thought the writing during the Quarian and Krogan arcs were pretty great as a whole. Kinda wish you could renegade or charm the geth into peace but thats it. I just find the 'lack of nuance' argument kind of bizarre considering the geth were acting plenty sus in those events too, which you can then call them out on, and the difference between wrex and wreave is outstanding. Oh the Rannoch arc was heavily biased too. The writing behind that plot was very obvious in who it wanted the player to empathize with. From hitting the Quarians over the head with an idiot ball and having them attack the Geth (despite what Shepard may have done previously to establish peace talks), to making Han Garel a trigger happy idiot; whom the game encourages players to gut punch for his incompetence, to the flotilia's refusal to stop firing when the Geth shutdown (unless Tali is present) the game takes every opportunity to paint the Quarians in a negative light. When it comes to their interactions with the Geth both in the Morning War flashbacks; and with the game ignoring saves where Shepard brought Legion to Tali's trial in ME 2; the narrative is dead-set on making the Quarians the agressors who are to ultimately blame for being wipped out at the conclusion of the arc if Shepard can't negotiate peace. Shepard isn't allowed, like you said, to push back on the Geth, to challenge the obviously one-sided recounting of the Morning War that is being presented to him or question the very suspect nature of the Geth's actions; especially those when Legion/Not-Legion want to upload Reaper code to the Consensus. Likewise there is very little to no nuance in the Tuchunka arc because the whole plot is designed to make players side with the Krogan. Shepard can't push back on Wrex or Wreve's demand (something he was able to do in ME1) nor is the player allowed to question the wisdom of putting the whole war effort on hold just to cure the Genophage. If, for example, Palaven fell during the time Shepard and Co were running around playing doctor to the Krogan then having all the BattleToad babies in the world wouldn't matter because the war would have been lost at that point. The player is not allowed to make any comments about Wrex/Wreve's behavior during the whole arc either; excepting to elect to join in on the general prickishness towards the Salarians and Turians. And the only option given to those players who would choose to not cure the Genophage is to side with the racist caricature of the Dalatrass. Sure it's technically nuanced in that you have an option to not go the preferred route but only in a way that effectively lumps the player in with the bigot character. It's like saying that you have the option to pick door A or B but if you go with door B you have to walk in with the KKK member holding it open for you. There's really not a nuanced approach because the end result boils down to either you agree with the plight of the Krogan or you just want to see dead babies.
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 7, 2021 4:40:32 GMT
- I think first Mass Effect had the best biotics I mean, they did have the most variety for sure. - I think Meer was better voice for Shep than Hale Savage lmao.
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Post by midnightwolf on Jun 7, 2021 8:40:03 GMT
- I think first Mass Effect had the best biotics I mean, they did have the most variety for sure. - I think Meer was better voice for Shep than Hale Savage lmao. Mark Meer WAS/IS better, I agree!
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 7, 2021 9:20:55 GMT
I mean, they did have the most variety for sure. Savage lmao. Mark Meer WAS/IS better, I agree! Just because I said it was savage, didn't mean I agreed lol. Was just so straight up about it.
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Post by midnightwolf on Jun 7, 2021 9:30:24 GMT
Mark Meer WAS/IS better, I agree! Just because I said it was savage, didn't mean I agreed lol. Was just so straight up about it. I never said that you DID agree. I was actually agreeing with the poster you quotered.
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Post by jadebaby88 on Jun 7, 2021 9:37:57 GMT
Just because I said it was savage, didn't mean I agreed lol. Was just so straight up about it. I never said that you DID agree. I was actually agreeing with the poster you quotered. Oh, I apologize then. You knew they were being sarcastic though?
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Post by midnightwolf on Jun 7, 2021 9:43:42 GMT
I never said that you DID agree. I was actually agreeing with the poster you quotered. Oh, I apologize then. You knew they were being sarcastic though? No. And it matters not. Mark Meer is simply better in my opinion. Plus, he voices numerus species throughout the series which Hale does not.
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 10, 2021 13:46:37 GMT
The Krogan are BioWare's go-to "victim" species.
The Quarians only wish they had the same level of sympathy generating 'feelz' devoted towards them throughout the trilogy (and even into Andromeda) that the Krogan received. Tali may throw herself off a cliff should Shepard side with the Geth, but only the Tuchunka narrative arc forces players to first shoot Mordin in the back, and then look Wrex in the eyes as they 'betray' him, all the while (un)subtly implying that one is monster if they should decide to not help this poor, downtrodden species.
If going by what the modern timeframe of the games tells us, the Krogan have been the galaxy's collective punching bag for absolutely no reason. That they have been the victim of unwarranted abuse and persecution through no fault of their own. Bioware even writes in comically racist caricatures like the Salarian Dalatrass and Director Tann just so we can have a one dimensional 'bad guy' rather than bother with nuanced approaches of what is a very checkered past.
Wrex or Morda weren't demanding unreasonable concessions during wholly inappropriate moments, but rather the rest of the people opposed to them just hated the Krogan and wanted to kick them when they were down. All of which is personified in shallow excuses for characters who's one single defining trait is: "Racist against the Krogan". It's not like the Krogan Rebellions devastated the galaxy for nearly a hundred years. Or the generally antagonistic and violent approach Krogan typically take with the rest of the galaxy since then. No, the rest of interstellar society is simply racist for looking at them warily; according to in-game bias.
Clearly, actual genetic pre-disposistions to violence, such as the Blood Rage, should be overlooked because treating them differently would be tantamount to discrimination. Krogan actions such as redirecting asteroids to wipe out multiple (as in more than one) Turian garden worlds; dextro planets which are relatively rare in the galaxy as well as generally being heavily populated; is brushed aside in favor of casting the Turian's as authoritarian jailers who unjustly placed a secret bomb on Tuckunka. Forget that the Hierarchy wasn't even a part of the government the Krogan were rebelling against when they began attacking them, instead focus on how the oppressive Turian military patrols the Krogan DMZ thus hindering Krogan development.
Ignore how the Krogan literally ate their captives alive during the rebellions; enough so that the action is widely known and is now considered an insult to the Salarian and Turians. Rather focus on how evil those two aliens were when they deployed the Genophage. It wasn't used as a means to conclude hostilities in as non-violent way as possible; to stop a hostile force that previously had no intention of ending the conflict until either they or the rest of the galaxy was dead. No, instead it was the work of mad scientists and warmongers who merely wanted the Krogan to suffer.
The fact that many Krogan are still alive from the time of the Rebellions, such as the Patriarch (who is a veteran of the Rachni Wars) or Nakmor Drack, individuals who actively participated in the fighting is a misnomer too. Despite being only one to two generations removed from the conclusion to the fighting the rebellions are 'ancient history'; and things like the Genophage shouldn't be used to 'punish' a people who had nothing to do with the reasons for it's deployment.
The game even selectively chooses to ignore Krogan biology when it's convenient to fit the "perpetual victim narrative". Clearly, being an R rated, predatory, and highly aggressive species who are all biologically immortal isn't a problem in long term population growth. The fact that the Krogan were doing nothing on their own to curb their explosive birthrate; indeed even using their superior numbers as a war tactic, simply smothering the opposing side with waves of useless cannon fodder; shouldn't be an issue either.
Furthermore, the ecologically devastated planets left in their wake aren't an obvious indication that they can't be trusted to handle resource management and industrial development. No the Council was simply being racist when they refused to give the clans a pristine (and already inhabited) colony world; even having the gall to ask the Krogan to please cease their soft invasion and withdraw rather than attacking them.
Turian and Salarian aid for the Krogan living on Tuchunka post rebellion is conveniently ignored as well. Obviously things like constant food deliveries from the patrolling Turian forces and the presence of the Salarian-made Shroud (the only thing keeping that radioactive dustball even remotely livable) are just signs of oppression and discrimination. Those patches of green seen growing on Tuchunka's surface in Mass Effect 3 aren't the result of the Shroud slowly terraforming conditions back from the Krogan's self-inflicted nuclear holocaust, but rather the 'Krogan spirit' revitalizing their homeworld with no outside interference.
Wanting to be treated like any other species in the setting is what the Krogan want, but not if that means they have to be held accountable for previous actions. They want handouts from the rest of the galaxy in the form of restitutions that they 'deserve'. They are tired of being treated like children, yet throw temper tantrums and complain when things don't go their way.
And BioWare can't seem to get away from writing the same narrative for them game after game.
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Post by Monica21 on Jun 12, 2021 19:36:23 GMT
^^ This is some good stuff. Well-reasoned and well-written, and does a much better job of capturing my feelings about how the Krogan are written and the weird 180 that Mordin does in ME3 to justify a cure than I could ever put into words. Unpopular, but still accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 5:05:33 GMT
The Krogan are BioWare's go-to "victim" species. The Quarians only wish they had the same level of sympathy generating 'feelz' devoted towards them throughout the trilogy (and even into Andromeda) that the Krogan received. Tali may throw herself off a cliff should Shepard side with the Geth, but only the Tuchunka narrative arc forces players to first shoot Mordin in the back, and then look Wrex in the eyes as they 'betray' him, all the while (un)subtly implying that one is monster if they should decide to not help this poor, downtrodden species. If going by what the modern timeframe of the games tells us, the Krogan have been the galaxy's collective punching bag for absolutely no reason. That they have been the victim of unwarranted abuse and persecution through no fault of their own. Bioware even writes in comically racist caricatures like the Salarian Dalatrass and Director Tann just so we can have a one dimensional 'bad guy' rather than bother with nuanced approaches of what is a very checkered past. Wrex or Morda weren't demanding unreasonable concessions during wholly inappropriate moments, but rather the rest of the people opposed to them just hated the Krogan and wanted to kick them when they were down. All of which is personified in shallow excuses for characters who's one single defining trait is: "Racist against the Krogan". It's not like the Krogan Rebellions devastated the galaxy for nearly a hundred years. Or the generally antagonistic and violent approach Krogan typically take with the rest of the galaxy since then. No, the rest of interstellar society is simply racist for looking at them warily; according to in-game bias. Clearly, actual genetic pre-disposistions to violence, such as the Blood Rage, should be overlooked because treating them differently would be tantamount to discrimination. Krogan actions such as redirecting asteroids to wipe out multiple (as in more than one) Turian garden worlds; dextro planets which are relatively rare in the galaxy as well as generally being heavily populated; is brushed aside in favor of casting the Turian's as authoritarian jailers who unjustly placed a secret bomb on Tuckunka. Forget that the Hierarchy wasn't even a part of the government the Krogan were rebelling against when they began attacking them, instead focus on how the oppressive Turian military patrols the Krogan DMZ thus hindering Krogan development. Ignore how the Krogan literally ate their captives alive during the rebellions; enough so that the action is widely known and is now considered an insult to the Salarian and Turians. Rather focus on how evil those two aliens were when they deployed the Genophage. It wasn't used as a means to conclude hostilities in as non-violent way as possible; to stop a hostile force that previously had no intention of ending the conflict until either they or the rest of the galaxy was dead. No, instead it was the work of mad scientists and warmongers who merely wanted the Krogan to suffer. The fact that many Krogan are still alive from the time of the Rebellions, such as the Patriarch (who is a veteran of the Rachni Wars) or Nakmor Drack, individuals who actively participated in the fighting is a misnomer too. Despite being only one to two generations removed from the conclusion to the fighting the rebellions are 'ancient history'; and things like the Genophage shouldn't be used to 'punish' a people who had nothing to do with the reasons for it's deployment. The game even selectively chooses to ignore Krogan biology when it's convenient to fit the "perpetual victim narrative". Clearly, being an R rated, predatory, and highly aggressive species who are all biologically immortal isn't a problem in long term population growth. The fact that the Krogan were doing nothing on their own to curb their explosive birthrate; indeed even using their superior numbers as a war tactic, simply smothering the opposing side with waves of useless cannon fodder; shouldn't be an issue either. Furthermore, the ecologically devastated planets left in their wake aren't an obvious indication that they can't be trusted to handle resource management and industrial development. No the Council was simply being racist when they refused to give the clans a pristine (and already inhabited) colony world; even having the gall to ask the Krogan to please cease their soft invasion and withdraw rather than attacking them. Turian and Salarian aid for the Krogan living on Tuchunka post rebellion is conveniently ignored as well. Obviously things like constant food deliveries from the patrolling Turian forces and the presence of the Salarian-made Shroud (the only thing keeping that radioactive dustball even remotely livable) are just signs of oppression and discrimination. Those patches of green seen growing on Tuchunka's surface in Mass Effect 3 aren't the result of the Shroud slowly terraforming conditions back from the Krogan's self-inflicted nuclear holocaust, but rather the 'Krogan spirit' revitalizing their homeworld with no outside interference. Wanting to be treated like any other species in the setting is what the Krogan want, but not if that means they have to be held accountable for previous actions. They want handouts from the rest of the galaxy in the form of restitutions that they 'deserve'. They are tired of being treated like children, yet throw temper tantrums and complain when things don't go their way. And BioWare can't seem to get away from writing the same narrative for them game after game. You forget to account for the fact that Bioware also wrote "that checkered past" into the krogan history. If they wanted the players to only be sympathetic to the plight of that "downtrodden" species they would have likely not given them such a checkered past in the first place. They also would not have written the situation on Tuchanka being so different under Wreav's leadership as Wrex's... enabling the player to also have a situation where they do not have to shoot Mordin in the back in order to not cure the genophage... while curing the genophage will 100% of the time cause Mordin's death.
I think it's more likely that they wanted the player to feel conflicted about whatever choices they made regarding the krogan.
The quarian arc is not nearly as good at making the player feel conflicted about their choices since it offers an obvious "best case" solution - peace between the quarians and geth.
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Post by Sonya on Jun 13, 2021 10:25:19 GMT
I think it's more likely that they wanted the player to feel conflicted about whatever choices they made regarding the krogan. It depends on what players think about more. For some there are no conflicts at all. The galaxy needs saving and any methods will do. There is war going on. Serious, brutal, dangerous enemies kill us left and right. The goal - win; and to get the best outcome, gather an army usually mean putting emotions aside but not get rid of them. Those problems (victim species, shooting your friends in the back) are nothing in comparison to Reapers. First kill them - the rest can be dealt with later, including emotinal state. For some it is difficult as "feelings" come into pay. It is similar to one choice in the game: kill Falere or not? I want to kill her as she is a potential danger, Banshee. I may trust her words but she can fail as well and I do not want any risks. So, sorry Falere, but it is war. Though the game gives me that choice only if Samara is dead - here is that conflict: am I ready to have dead Samara so I could kill Falere? Pretending I do not know the future I have Samara alive but in addition alive potential Banshee and already can do nothing. Maybe I could predict that outcome, but I also think that Samara "follows", sort of, her codex and not against killing Falere. Turned out I was wrong - codex is used only when it is convenient for Samara. Javik, no matter how imperialistic he is, says many useful things regarding how wage war. And I agree with him in many things. Devs want to impose conflict; such state of things can tear a person apart from inside as there is no time to think what is best. Leaving Falere alive? Make peace btw geth and quarians? Cure the genophage? Some situations simply require straight way of thinking and putting unnecessary emotoions aside to get rid of that imposed conflict. Can a person do that? Depends.
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