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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 11:08:45 GMT
I think it's more likely that they wanted the player to feel conflicted about whatever choices they made regarding the krogan. It depends on what players think about more. For some there are no conflicts at all. The galaxy needs saving and any methods will do. There is war going on. Serious, brutal, dangerous enemies kill us left and right. The goal - win; and to get the best outcome, gather an army usually mean putting emotions aside but not get rid of them. Those problems (victim species, shooting your friends in the back) are nothing in comparison to Reapers. First kill them - the rest can be dealt with later, including emotinal state. For some it is difficult as "feelings" come into pay. It is similar to one choice in the game: kill Falere or not? I want to kill her as she is a potential danger, Banshee. I may trust her words but she can fail as well and I do not want any risks. So, sorry Falere, but it is war. Though the game gives me that choice only if Samara is dead - here is that conflict: am I ready to have dead Samara so I could kill Falere? Pretending I do not know the future I have Samara alive but in addition alive potential Banshee and already can do nothing. Maybe I could predict that outcome, but I also think that Samara "follows", sort of, her codex and not against killing Falere. Turned out I was wrong - codex is used only when it is convenient for Samara. Javik, no matter how imperialistic he is, says many useful things regarding how wage war. And I agree with him in many things. Devs want to impose conflict; such state of things can tear a person apart from inside as there is no time to think what is best. Leaving Falere alive? Make peace btw geth and quarians? Cure the genophage? Some situations simply require straight way of thinking and putting unnecessary emotoions aside to get rid of that imposed conflict. Can a person do that? Depends. My statement, however, was about what BIOWARE wanted the player to feel, not about what different players feel. I was responding to the statement: "The Krogan are Bioware's go to "victim" species." Bioware didn't just write one side of the Krogan narrative, they wrote both sides of it in ME3. The player has choices available that can reflect either an attitude that is sympathetic to the Krogan or one that is not. In the case where the player has played through ME1 by shooting Wrex and ME2 by destroying Maelon's data, then the unsympathetic choice clearly becomes the best choice the player could make in ME3 (i.e. don't cure the genophage and save Mordin's life). If the player has played throough ME1 sympathetic to the Krogan and calmed Wrex and then kept Maelon's data in ME2, then the better choice for that player to make is to continued that attitude and cure the genophage. I think it is an exceptionally well written narrative for a video game... allowing the player to with either course of action either because of what they did in previous games or in spite of it... providing consequences in every case while not providing a blanket "right" solution. Like the decision between Ashley and Kaidan, there is no way out that doesn't cost someone their life.
The quarian narrative, on the other hand, does provide an ultimately right solution... peace between the two parties. There is never any negative consequence to making that peace, although there is still the prerequisite that one had to be sympathetic enough to the plight of both the quarians and the geth to have kept both Legion and Tali alive. If you treat Legion like "just a geth" and send him off to Cerberus to be experimented with, peace is no longer an option.
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Post by Sonya on Jun 13, 2021 11:34:26 GMT
My statement, however, was about what BIOWARE wanted the player to feel, not about what different players feel. I get that. That's why wrote that post. Players' choices and feelings are connected with BW's "wanting" as they impose those conflicts. Without story from BW- examples you have given - there are no players BW wants to see in conflict. Just added some more examples.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 11:59:30 GMT
My statement, however, was about what BIOWARE wanted the player to feel, not about what different players feel. I get that. That's why wrote that post. Players' choices and feelings are connected with BW's "wanting" as they impose those conflicts. Without story from BW- examples you have given - there are no players BW wants to see in conflict. Just added some more examples. I think we're using the term "conflict" in different ways. I'm using it in terms of their not providing a consequence free "right" way out of the problem, but having all available options present the player with some negative consequences. Definition: "having or showing confused and mutually inconsistent feelings." As I said, the player can, in ME3, act consistently with how they felt about Wrex and the krogan in ME1 and ME2 or not... There are negative consequences no matter what decision they come to in the end and regardless of the paths they took prior to that in the game and no way to resolve the issue without losing at least one former squad mate.
With the quarians, there are no negative consequences to being able to establish peace, the "right" path through all three games is quite defined.
It's not about it being "war."
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Post by themikefest on Jun 13, 2021 12:14:28 GMT
The player has choices available that can reflect either an attitude that is sympathetic to the Krogan or one that is not. In the case where the player has played through ME1 by shooting Wrex and ME2 by destroying Maelon's data, then the unsympathetic choice clearly becomes the best choice the player could make in ME3 (i.e. don't cure the genophage and save Mordin's life). I agree with that though I don't recruit Wrex because he proves he can't be trusted after meeting him at the elevator. I don't agree with that. Shepard's job is to find a way to stop the reapers. When the salarians offer resources to help, I take that offer. Curing the genophage doesn't mean crap. The more resources Shepard has, the better. Besides, the genophage doesn't mean crap if the reapers win. Give me a reason why I would let the geth upload the code?
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Post by Sonya on Jun 13, 2021 12:24:14 GMT
I think we're using the term "conflict" in different ways. What ways exactly? It's not about it being "war." Choices are made during war. And that war, dangerous enemies influence your choices, including genophage or quarians. Settings, situations have their effect in any case.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 12:50:25 GMT
I think we're using the term "conflict" in different ways. What ways exactly? It's not about it being "war." Choices are made during war. And that war, dangerous enemies influence your choices, including genophage or quarians. Settings, situations have their effect in any case. I gave the definition. All you're doing is justifying your decisions because the setting is within a war. That's not what I'm talking about at all. I don't care whether or not the player ultimately chooses to cure or not cure the genophage... and neither does Bioware. They are presenting a situation where they want the player to think about the choice beyond what is expedient or most beneficial to the outcome of the GAME. The question is "Is it consistent with the attitudes Shepard had in the first 2 games?" It's only if the player starts out sympathetic to the krogan (saving Wrex in ME1") and "saving Maelon's data in ME2" and then doesn't cure the genophage (because they are no longer sympathetic to the krogan) that the player is "forced" to shoot Wrex and still lose Mordin in the bargain.
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Post by Sonya on Jun 13, 2021 13:08:23 GMT
All you're doing is justifying your decisions because the setting is within a war. False. Gave example where definition of "conflict" suits just fine. Gave addinitional information about "feelings" (from definition). Read posts.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 13:28:59 GMT
The player has choices available that can reflect either an attitude that is sympathetic to the Krogan or one that is not. In the case where the player has played through ME1 by shooting Wrex and ME2 by destroying Maelon's data, then the unsympathetic choice clearly becomes the best choice the player could make in ME3 (i.e. don't cure the genophage and save Mordin's life). I agree with that though I don't recruit Wrex because he proves he can't be trusted after meeting him at the elevator. I don't agree with that. Shepard's job is to find a way to stop the reapers. When the salarians offer resources to help, I take that offer. Curing the genophage doesn't mean crap. The more resources Shepard has, the better. Besides, the genophage doesn't mean crap if the reapers win. Give me a reason why I woAGainuld let the geth upload the code? You're viewing my comments from a viewpoint of justifying things on a moral level... I'm talking about a gaming level and a writing level... which is what Bioware's job is to set up...not tell us what morality is right or wrong. With the Krogan decision... What happens if the player has been sympathetic to Wrex, saved in ME1, kept Maelon's data in ME2, but lost Mordin in ME2? Does hat player have a reason, gamewise, to not cure the genophage? No. Clearly, their best decision is to cure it and gain the war assets. However, the moral reasons for not trusting the krogan are still there, but the player's feelings for Wrex create the conflicted feeling. If what Bioware wanted was the player to always be sympathetic to the krogan "victims" they would not have provided the indications in the game that the krogan were not to be trusted or they would have provided the "blanket" good solution... saving both Wrex and Mordin scenario.
It's not up to me to give you a reason to allow the geth to upload the code. Bioware has written reasons very few reasons to not trust Legion into the game and they've made the geth force stronger than the quarian one. There are a few indications to not trust Legion, but they are weak. I think we agree on that. The incentive to the player to allow it is based on their sympathy for both species... and that is the way to peace... with no negative game consequence to achieving that peace. If the player happens to lose Tali or Legion, they have taken away the option for peace. They could have left that option in (as you suggested) even if one is lost... or just never introduced peace as an option even if both were present.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 13, 2021 14:01:40 GMT
It's not up to me to give you a reason to allow the geth to upload the code. Then don't say there's no negative consequences to making peace since you can't/won't give a reason to upload the code. Or that it' provides the right solution, from what you call a quarian narrative. The game gives no reason to upload that code. If Bioware wants me to choose peace, then how about there's an option to have Han " I have an itchy trigger finger" Gerrell stand down leading to the geth possibly standing long enough for both sides to come to some agreement long enough to destroy the reapers. After that. worry about what might happen once that agreement starts to break down.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 14:10:56 GMT
It's not up to me to give you a reason to allow the geth to upload the code. Then don't say there's no negative consequences to making peace since you can't/won't give a reason to upload the code. Or that it' provides the right solution, from what you call a quarian narrative. The game gives no reason to upload that code. If Bioware wants me to choose peace, then how about there's an option to have Han " I have an itchy trigger finger" Gerrell stand down leading to the geth possibly standing long enough for both sides to come to some agreement long enough to destroy the reapers. After that. worry about what might happen once that agreement starts to break down. What negative consequence is there in game to achieving peace? None... You get maximum war assets if you achieve peace. You lose Legion whether you achieve peace or side with the geth or side with the quarians. You also lose Tali if you side with the geth. The reason Bioware gives for allowing the upload to the code is your trust in Legion. He's saying he needs to do it to advance his people. Do you trust him is the question. If he's not there, then peace is not an option that Bioware has left on the table. You can choose to side with the geth... and you get the larger force for doing so.
Bioware does give a few indications that Legion is not totally trustworthy... but they are weak and throughout the game he has never really done anything to betray you. A weak indicator might be the Tali/Legion fight... but you have no option to toss him off the Normandy even if you lose his loyalty. If you keep him alive, even if disloyal, he doesn't actually do anything to betray you.
You're making the judgment that the reason for uploading the code given to the player by Bioware in the game is insufficient for your moral compass... so you accept the losses and make your decision accordingly... but if you do settle for peace, there are no losses for you to accept.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 13, 2021 14:24:35 GMT
Then don't say there's no negative consequences to making peace since you can't/won't give a reason to upload the code. Or that it' provides the right solution, from what you call a quarian narrative. The game gives no reason to upload that code. If Bioware wants me to choose peace, then how about there's an option to have Han " I have an itchy trigger finger" Gerrell stand down leading to the geth possibly standing long enough for both sides to come to some agreement long enough to destroy the reapers. After that. worry about what might happen once that agreement starts to break down. What negative consequence is there in game to achieving peace? None... You get maximum war assets if you achieve peace. You lose Legion whether you achieve peace or side with the geth or side with the quarians. You also lose Tali if you side with the geth. The reason Bioware gives for allowing the upload to the code is your trust in Legion. He's saying he needs to do it to advance his people. Do you trust him is the question. If he's not there, then peace is not an option that Bioware has left on the table. You can choose to side with the geth... and you get the larger force for doing so. Bioware does give a few indications that Legion is not totally trustworthy... but they are weak and throughout the game he has never really done anything to betray you. A weak indicator might be the Tali/Legion fight... but you have no option to toss him off the Normandy even if you lose his loyalty. If you keep him alive, even if disloyal, he doesn't actually do anything to betray you.
Does your Shepard know any of that before deciding to have peace or not? I wish my Shepard had psychic abilities like that. Instead of putting her/his talents into the military, those talents would have been used to win the lottery.
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Post by DeckSavage on Jun 13, 2021 17:07:28 GMT
I too felt my hand was forced when I had to allow Legion to upload the Reaper Code to achieve Geth/Quarian Peace. If Legion was Loyal, I should have had the option to make Legion backdown and achieve peace nonetheless. My reasoning is that Legion hiding the "Reaper Upgrades" for so long from Shepard was a major backstab, since this fact has consequences not only for the Geth but for Organic Life too.
On a sidenote this whole Legion hiding things from you is typical of Synthetic Life in the Trilogy. Take EDI for instance, EDI is much more devious than Legion:
In ME1 EDI went Rogue and took control of the Luna Base (the first step to gain her Freedom), In ME2 EDI took control of the Normandy to purge the Ship thanks to Joker, In ME3 EDI took control of Dr Eva's body,
You see where I'm heading at? I feel EDI is metaphorically speaking a "Natural Highjacker", or a "Control Freak" even. Which makes her very hard to trust when you think about it. I wish a DLC had explored her Rogue nature more.
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Post by Monica21 on Jun 13, 2021 17:33:16 GMT
On a sidenote this whole Legion hiding things from you is typical of Synthetic Life in the Trilogy. Take EDI for instance, EDI is much more devious than Legion: In ME1 EDI went Rogue and took control of the Luna Base (the first step to gain her Freedom), In ME2 EDI took control of the Normandy to purge the Ship thanks to Joker, In ME3 EDI took control of Dr Eva's body, This is, in part, why I don't mind that she dies in Destroy. Sure, she's fine as a crew member, but she's not that valuable and I've lost much more valuable crew members. She's just collateral damage.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2021 19:15:31 GMT
What negative consequence is there in game to achieving peace? None... You get maximum war assets if you achieve peace. You lose Legion whether you achieve peace or side with the geth or side with the quarians. You also lose Tali if you side with the geth. The reason Bioware gives for allowing the upload to the code is your trust in Legion. He's saying he needs to do it to advance his people. Do you trust him is the question. If he's not there, then peace is not an option that Bioware has left on the table. You can choose to side with the geth... and you get the larger force for doing so. Bioware does give a few indications that Legion is not totally trustworthy... but they are weak and throughout the game he has never really done anything to betray you. A weak indicator might be the Tali/Legion fight... but you have no option to toss him off the Normandy even if you lose his loyalty. If you keep him alive, even if disloyal, he doesn't actually do anything to betray you.
Does your Shepard know any of that before deciding to have peace or not? I wish my Shepard had psychic abilities like that. Instead of putting her/his talents into the military, those talents would have been used to win the lottery. Your Shepard should know that Legion is giving you a reason to upload the code... to better enable his people to act as your allies. There is a reason given... you have deemed it inadequate. Np psychic ability is needed. The question is "Does you Shepard trust Legion." Why do you think it is a requirement to have completed the Geth Squadrons mission in order to peace to be on the table? That's where Legion ultimately proves he's on your side by sending the Primes to help with the Crucible. There is no betrayal there and no option for the player to have that quest end with a betrayal by Legion. The Primes go to the Cruicible and they do help... every single time regardless of any dialogue Shepard chooses within the mission.
Nothing wrong with your Shepard deeming Legion's reason to be inadequate. You're answering the question with "No, I don't trust Legion that much." I'm not pressuring you to do anything different in your game as you currently are... I'm saying Bioware provided a solution to the geth/quarian war that has zero negative consequence. They did not do that with the Krogan genophage issue. All solutions there have negative, in game, consequences in the form of losses to EMS topped off by a forced choice of which squad mate to lose (Wrex or Mordin). With the geth/quarian war there is no choice between squad mates - Legion cannot be saved regardless. Tali can be saved if peace is obtained (gaining both fleets) or if the player sides with the quarians (losing the strength of the entire geth fleet in the process).
The only way out of the forced choice between Wrex or Mordin is to not recruit Wrex in ME1. Otherwise, you have to either shoot him in ME1 or shoot him in ME3. In the latter, you lose both Mordin and Wrex. If you don't recruit Wrex and are consistent (not conflicted) in your unsympathetic stance regarding the krogan, you are rewarded by being able to save Mordin (however, you much lose Eve and her associated war assets in the process). I believe, therefore, that what Bioware wanted to accomplish with the krogan arc was not undying sympathy for the krogan victims, but a conflicted feeling on the left of choosing between two former squad mates... trying to recapture the conflicted feeling of ME1 when the player has to choose between Ashley or Kaidan (a decision which, unfortunately, often was made based on romantic interest instead of logic).
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 14, 2021 1:48:30 GMT
Its nonsense to suggest the Krogan arc is written in an even handed way - the issue of the Genophage is *massively* slanted towards siding with the Krogan on this in all 3 games. In Mordin's Loyalty mission, arguing the Genophage was wrong gets that whole sequence of him starting to express his regrets and exploring religion etc in a very powerful and profound sequence whereas supporting the genophage in that same conversation gets... nothing. Same as Zaeed's mission where defying him over Vido gives a whole extra sequence of dialogue to turn his heartless attitude around and the endorsing his plan has no follow up at all - Vido is offed, mission over and Sheperd never raises any 'don't pull any crap like that again' or anything. Its clear the writers thought (correctly) that everyone would go Paragon on this and just chucked the Renegade version together in a 'Really? Well okay...but don't expect us to waste any interesting story time on your WRONG decision...'
Same with ME3's Krogan route. Because that's what it is. On one side you have 4 fan favourite characters arguing for the cure (Wrex, Mordin, Kirrahe and Grunt). And on the other side you have... nobody. The new characters are similarly lop sided. Eve who has suffered much, fights and travels with you explaining along with Mordin how STG's original projections were flawed from a lack of knowledge about pre nuclear war Krogan society) and Dalatrass Linron who is written as a shrill, unrepentently racist old battleaxe.
You honestly think they wrote that storyline thinking anyone give a damn about the potential consequences when every character but her supports the cure? When the Krogan are given tons of badass action scenes to win the crowd over the Questline compared to the *zero* that the genophage defenders get? Its obvious who they wanted you to side with - they don't even bother changing the music and tone of the dispersal cutscene. Its still treated as an uplifting rebirth event, a great injustice corrected etc. And if that wasn't enough they have the 'BRZZT WRONG you traitrous racist Swine' aftermath if you do support the Salarians (whose level of support is a joke anyway compared to the Krogan).
And can we blame them? You may not think there's anything wrong with discarding your honour, living up to your agreements, supporting the rights of the unjustly persecuted using their rebellions at their treatment to crush them (Krogan, Geth) even harder. To be outraged when Legion conceals information due to centuries of evidence suggesting it will be suspected and stopped and wanting to show you the results instead of asking permission that organics have never traditionally given and have in fact attacked when the inquiry was made.
And EDI. Loyal for 2 whole games, the partner of your also loyal pilot who has never once asked for *anything* from you until the end where he begs you to look after her for him. And you don't find it an outrageous act of dishonour to repay both their loyalty withbetrayal to save your own skin. Because don't kid yourself - Sheperd's survival is *the* reason people pick Destroy. Bioware didn't predict it - they assumed because everyone was Paragon they'd go for what they were clearly pushing as the 'right' ending (need most EMS to unlock, the widest most well lit visually noticeable route right in front of you). But people's childish refusal to let their character die trumped that.
Why on earth they didn't just retcon it in the extended ending or LE with 'Sheperd lives in all routes if your EMS is high enough or Paragon\Renegade whatever is high enough' I will never understand. It would have taken all the real sting out of the endings fiasco because most players wanted Sheperd to live without sacrificing their honour killing EDI and the Geth.
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Post by smilesja on Jun 14, 2021 2:02:05 GMT
To be honest, I never thought the Krogan were portrayed as these victims that's been said around here especially after I've played the game with fresher eyes. Throughout the trilogy there were a lot of vengeful and violent Krogan even fan favorites like Wrex and Grunt threatened Shepard at some point. Their belligerent attitudes and lust for vengeance were displayed in the games and even if Wrex and Eve survive, it's no guarantee that they can maintain the tribes as Mordin mentioned. Speaking of Mordin, upon playing the LE again I felt that he was driven by massive guilt and was just trying to justify his actions until those emotions exploded in ME3. As shrill and standoffish the Dalatrass was, she did have a point in the Krogan possibly wanting revenge and as mentioned Wrex did struggle to unite the tribes. If you asked me years ago about Krogan being portrayed as victims I probably agreed with you but after my playthrough I'm just not entirely sure. Dalatrass aside, Primarch Victus shared his doubts about the Krogan as well and Wrex's attitude didn't help much at all. Even if Wrex is friendly with Shep, I don't think he's all that great when it comes to negotiating thought admittedly he's a cunning linguist compared to Wreav.
That's just my view though but as an unpopular opinion I would have to say the Geth feel more like they're portrayed as helpless victims and that's because Legion kept hiding information from Shep not only in ME2 but in ME3 and I have to admit the writing was a little awkward in how the Geth were portrayed.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 12:58:46 GMT
Its nonsense to suggest the Krogan arc is written in an even handed way - the issue of the Genophage is *massively* slanted towards siding with the Krogan on this in all 3 games. In Mordin's Loyalty mission, arguing the Genophage was wrong gets that whole sequence of him starting to express his regrets and exploring religion etc in a very powerful and profound sequence whereas supporting the genophage in that same conversation gets... nothing. Same as Zaeed's mission where defying him over Vido gives a whole extra sequence of dialogue to turn his heartless attitude around and the endorsing his plan has no follow up at all - Vido is offed, mission over and Sheperd never raises any 'don't pull any crap like that again' or anything. Its clear the writers thought (correctly) that everyone would go Paragon on this and just chucked the Renegade version together in a 'Really? Well okay...but don't expect us to waste any interesting story time on your WRONG decision...' Same with ME3's Krogan route. Because that's what it is. On one side you have 4 fan favourite characters arguing for the cure (Wrex, Mordin, Kirrahe and Grunt). And on the other side you have... nobody. The new characters are similarly lop sided. Eve who has suffered much, fights and travels with you explaining along with Mordin how STG's original projections were flawed from a lack of knowledge about pre nuclear war Krogan society) and Dalatrass Linron who is written as a shrill, unrepentently racist old battleaxe. You honestly think they wrote that storyline thinking anyone give a damn about the potential consequences when every character but her supports the cure? When the Krogan are given tons of badass action scenes to win the crowd over the Questline compared to the *zero* that the genophage defenders get? Its obvious who they wanted you to side with - they don't even bother changing the music and tone of the dispersal cutscene. Its still treated as an uplifting rebirth event, a great injustice corrected etc. And if that wasn't enough they have the 'BRZZT WRONG you traitrous racist Swine' aftermath if you do support the Salarians (whose level of support is a joke anyway compared to the Krogan). And can we blame them? You may not think there's anything wrong with discarding your honour, living up to your agreements, supporting the rights of the unjustly persecuted using their rebellions at their treatment to crush them (Krogan, Geth) even harder. To be outraged when Legion conceals information due to centuries of evidence suggesting it will be suspected and stopped and wanting to show you the results instead of asking permission that organics have never traditionally given and have in fact attacked when the inquiry was made. And EDI. Loyal for 2 whole games, the partner of your also loyal pilot who has never once asked for *anything* from you until the end where he begs you to look after her for him. And you don't find it an outrageous act of dishonour to repay both their loyalty withbetrayal to save your own skin. Because don't kid yourself - Sheperd's survival is *the* reason people pick Destroy. Bioware didn't predict it - they assumed because everyone was Paragon they'd go for what they were clearly pushing as the 'right' ending (need most EMS to unlock, the widest most well lit visually noticeable route right in front of you). But people's childish refusal to let their character die trumped that. Why on earth they didn't just retcon it in the extended ending or LE with 'Sheperd lives in all routes if your EMS is high enough or Paragon\Renegade whatever is high enough' I will never understand. It would have taken all the real sting out of the endings fiasco because most players wanted Sheperd to live without sacrificing their honour killing EDI and the Geth. I think it's ludicrous to suggest that it's not written in an even handed way. It's self-evident BECAUSE you're all here arguing that the krogan are brutish monsters USING stuff that Bioware wrote into the games. If it wasn't written in such an even handed way, you all would not be coming to the conclusion that they are brutish monsters and that the genophage should not be cured. You believe what you believe about them because Bioware has written that "evidence" into the games. If they just wrote them up as victims, everyone would have no reasons to believe they are not victims.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 13:18:31 GMT
That's just my view though but as an unpopular opinion I would have to say the Geth feel more like they're portrayed as helpless victims and that's because Legion kept hiding information from Shep not only in ME2 but in ME3 and I have to admit the writing was a little awkward in how the Geth were portrayed. I agree. There is very little evidence presented in the games that the geth are brutal enemies of any kind. In ME1, they are portrayed as naive, dumb pawns of Saren... worshipping Sovereign who feels insulted at the "petty devotions." In ME2, there further portrayed as victims whose society as been literallly split in two through the meddlings of the Reapers. In ME3, there are only a couple of very minor indications that Legion/Geth VI might be capable of betrayal... but that betrayal never happens regardless of any decision the player makes in the geth/quarian... and, practically no one comes here, arguing that the geth deserve to be destroyed on the basis that they are brutal enemies of organics.
The best "reason" so far given here is that there is no real reason for Shepard to allow Legion/Geth VI the opportunity to upload the code... and there, I argue that Legion/Geth VI states the most obvious of reasons... The geth are the larger force and uploaded the code would strengthen them further as allies.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 14, 2021 13:57:16 GMT
I choose the quarians. I have no proof the code will have the reapers remain in control of the geth. The geth can say whatever it wants, the machines aligned with the reapers so they can remain instead of being destroyed. I prefer death over being a slave. If there was the opportunity to get peace, even if it is temporary, without the code, then I would consider that.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 14:05:56 GMT
I choose the quarians. I have no proof the code will have the reapers remain in control of the geth. The geth can say whatever it wants, the machines aligned with the reapers so they can remain instead of being destroyed. I prefer death over being a slave. If there was the opportunity to get peace, even if it is temporary, without the code, then I would consider that. That's fine... I'm honestly not trying to convince you or anyone to choose differently than they do. Your Shepard is free to mistrust Legion or Geth VI for any reason (or even no reason at all). That's roll play. Bioware did write in a reason, though... weak as it may be. I don't know if it's dialogue one can choose or autodialogue, but I do recall Shepard dismissing the geth vulnerability to being hacked as "fixed." If autodialogue, I would say it's evidence of the uneven handed way the geth are written into the game as victims rather than aggressors... and I still say that the krogan arc is written in a much more even-handed way.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 14, 2021 14:18:56 GMT
I choose the quarians. I have no proof the code will have the reapers remain in control of the geth. The geth can say whatever it wants, the machines aligned with the reapers so they can remain instead of being destroyed. I prefer death over being a slave. If there was the opportunity to get peace, even if it is temporary, without the code, then I would consider that. That's fine... I'm honestly not trying to convince you or anyone to choose differently than they do. Your Shepard is free to mistrust Legion or Geth VI for any reason (or even no reason at all). That's roll play. Bioware did write in a reason, though... weak as it may be. I don't know if it's dialogue one can choose or autodialogue, but I do recall Shepard dismissing the geth vulnerability to being hacked as "fixed." If autodialogue, I would say it's evidence of the uneven handed way the geth are written into the game as victims rather than aggressors... and I still say that the krogan arc is written in a much more even-handed way. Of course it's fine. Why wouldn't it be?
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Post by Vortex13 on Jun 14, 2021 14:38:14 GMT
Its nonsense to suggest the Krogan arc is written in an even handed way - the issue of the Genophage is *massively* slanted towards siding with the Krogan on this in all 3 games. In Mordin's Loyalty mission, arguing the Genophage was wrong gets that whole sequence of him starting to express his regrets and exploring religion etc in a very powerful and profound sequence whereas supporting the genophage in that same conversation gets... nothing. Same as Zaeed's mission where defying him over Vido gives a whole extra sequence of dialogue to turn his heartless attitude around and the endorsing his plan has no follow up at all - Vido is offed, mission over and Sheperd never raises any 'don't pull any crap like that again' or anything. Its clear the writers thought (correctly) that everyone would go Paragon on this and just chucked the Renegade version together in a 'Really? Well okay...but don't expect us to waste any interesting story time on your WRONG decision...' Same with ME3's Krogan route. Because that's what it is. On one side you have 4 fan favourite characters arguing for the cure (Wrex, Mordin, Kirrahe and Grunt). And on the other side you have... nobody. The new characters are similarly lop sided. Eve who has suffered much, fights and travels with you explaining along with Mordin how STG's original projections were flawed from a lack of knowledge about pre nuclear war Krogan society) and Dalatrass Linron who is written as a shrill, unrepentently racist old battleaxe. You honestly think they wrote that storyline thinking anyone give a damn about the potential consequences when every character but her supports the cure? When the Krogan are given tons of badass action scenes to win the crowd over the Questline compared to the *zero* that the genophage defenders get? Its obvious who they wanted you to side with - they don't even bother changing the music and tone of the dispersal cutscene. Its still treated as an uplifting rebirth event, a great injustice corrected etc. And if that wasn't enough they have the 'BRZZT WRONG you traitrous racist Swine' aftermath if you do support the Salarians (whose level of support is a joke anyway compared to the Krogan). And can we blame them? You may not think there's anything wrong with discarding your honour, living up to your agreements, supporting the rights of the unjustly persecuted using their rebellions at their treatment to crush them (Krogan, Geth) even harder. To be outraged when Legion conceals information due to centuries of evidence suggesting it will be suspected and stopped and wanting to show you the results instead of asking permission that organics have never traditionally given and have in fact attacked when the inquiry was made. The whole Krogan arc is written to brow beat players into supporting the Krogan and being for the cure. You have to shoot Mordin in the back to sabotage the deployment; or you have to meta-game a whole gamut of decisions thorough out the trilogy in order to make the pro-Genophage side seem even remotely appealing in ME3. And even when you do you have to not only purposely forego gameplay & narrative content but you ultimately still have to side with a one-dimensional, racist caricature at the end of it. There is no nuance for the Genophage debate, because BioWare intentionally wanted players to feel bad for a species they arbitrarily decided was the victim; despite how they originally wrote the background lore.
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Post by marshalmoriarty on Jun 14, 2021 22:46:46 GMT
You seriously look at that arc and don't see how completely skewed it is towards siding with the Krogan? Any nuance on this issue has to be provided by the player because it sure as hell isn't provided by the writers. The game is just written with such a heavy hand, coming down so mightily on the side of the Krogan and Geth that you'd have to be Dick Dastardly not to feel emotionally blackmailed into supporting them\finding a peaceful compromise with the Geth.
The Salarians in general get such a pasting from the writers. They're distrusted and disliked by practically every race and NPC who encounter them with only the STG guys like Mordin, Kirrahe etc coming across okay. Characters who encounter them for the 1st time like Javik from the dlc and Jaal from MEA both comment that they don't trust Salarians and since practically every Salarian is a criminal and\or sells out their allies (Chorban, Anoleis, Dr Saleon, Jarroth, Maelon, Ish, Sayn, Dalatrass Linron etc) its easy to see why.
I'm always willing to hear both sides of an argument if its well written. ME3 is not and that's where our annoyance lies. Bioware simplifying complex issues into right and wrong. I understand the pressures to not be seen to be impartial on racism etc but there were more nuanced ways to go about it Otherwise why even have the Renegade option at all if you're just going to label it as the option that the racist bigots take and write it as such? Cerberus, the Salarian Union get this hard especially in 3. And the majority of the Quarian Admirals (Rael, Xen, Han'Gerel and until very late Shala Ran) are all written as being completely unpentent and ignorant of the Quarians' share of culpability in the Geth problem, still intent on exterminating them as simple malfunctioning machines despite all the evidence to the contrary.
And after shooting at you when you just helped them and double crossing you by continuing to attack instead of the agreed upon retreat, they still expect you to help them! Its because the writers were so hell bent on shoving you towards the 'Make peace between the 2' option. They left out Kal'Reegar and didn't originally want Tali as a squadmate in ME3 to push and push and push the 'the Geth are innocent! Feel sorry for them, not the warmongering Quarians who never help you' angle.
Tali and Legion both support peace - again all the fan favorite support one outcome to drive home Bioware's wish for you to 'pick a card, any card... as long as its this one'. And if you don't they shout WRONG and either have Tali commit suicide or make you murder Legion (murder being exactly what Tali considers it to be).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 14, 2021 23:02:14 GMT
Its nonsense to suggest the Krogan arc is written in an even handed way - the issue of the Genophage is *massively* slanted towards siding with the Krogan on this in all 3 games. In Mordin's Loyalty mission, arguing the Genophage was wrong gets that whole sequence of him starting to express his regrets and exploring religion etc in a very powerful and profound sequence whereas supporting the genophage in that same conversation gets... nothing. Same as Zaeed's mission where defying him over Vido gives a whole extra sequence of dialogue to turn his heartless attitude around and the endorsing his plan has no follow up at all - Vido is offed, mission over and Sheperd never raises any 'don't pull any crap like that again' or anything. Its clear the writers thought (correctly) that everyone would go Paragon on this and just chucked the Renegade version together in a 'Really? Well okay...but don't expect us to waste any interesting story time on your WRONG decision...' Same with ME3's Krogan route. Because that's what it is. On one side you have 4 fan favourite characters arguing for the cure (Wrex, Mordin, Kirrahe and Grunt). And on the other side you have... nobody. The new characters are similarly lop sided. Eve who has suffered much, fights and travels with you explaining along with Mordin how STG's original projections were flawed from a lack of knowledge about pre nuclear war Krogan society) and Dalatrass Linron who is written as a shrill, unrepentently racist old battleaxe. You honestly think they wrote that storyline thinking anyone give a damn about the potential consequences when every character but her supports the cure? When the Krogan are given tons of badass action scenes to win the crowd over the Questline compared to the *zero* that the genophage defenders get? Its obvious who they wanted you to side with - they don't even bother changing the music and tone of the dispersal cutscene. Its still treated as an uplifting rebirth event, a great injustice corrected etc. And if that wasn't enough they have the 'BRZZT WRONG you traitrous racist Swine' aftermath if you do support the Salarians (whose level of support is a joke anyway compared to the Krogan). And can we blame them? You may not think there's anything wrong with discarding your honour, living up to your agreements, supporting the rights of the unjustly persecuted using their rebellions at their treatment to crush them (Krogan, Geth) even harder. To be outraged when Legion conceals information due to centuries of evidence suggesting it will be suspected and stopped and wanting to show you the results instead of asking permission that organics have never traditionally given and have in fact attacked when the inquiry was made. The whole Krogan arc is written to brow beat players into supporting the Krogan and being for the cure. You have to shoot Mordin in the back to sabotage the deployment; or you have to meta-game a whole gamut of decisions thorough out the trilogy in order to make the pro-Genophage side seem even remotely appealing in ME3. And even when you do you have to not only purposely forego gameplay & narrative content but you ultimately still have to side with a one-dimensional, racist caricature at the end of it. There is no nuance for the Genophage debate, because BioWare intentionally wanted players to feel bad for a species they arbitrarily decided was the victim; despite how they originally wrote the background lore. Oh boo hoo, Bioware browbeats you into...blah, blah, blah. You put on a better "victim" act than the krogan do. You have plenty of opportunity to make the decisions that will naturally take you to the point in ME3 where not curing the genophage will save Mordin...WITHOUT metagaming. You just have to have some guts to make choices the reflect how low an esteem you hold the krogan in. In ME1, you're not only given the opportunity to leave him off your crew (which would be the proper action if you believe you can't trust them), you also have the opportunity to shoot him for trying to sabotage your mission... or failing that... you can simply refrain from autopressing the blue or red choice and Ashley will eventually shoot him. By ME2, you should be quite willing to destroy a potential cure for the genophage and Mordin is quite willing throughout that mission to give you multiple reasons for his modification and justifications for the genophage. Those are the only two requirements and a blind gamer could easily follow those clues without metagaming to arrive at the point where sabotaging the genophage would be well within that sort of Shepard's character (i.e a Shepard who believes the krogan are violent brutes). So don't give me your whining about Bioware browbeating you over the krogan. They don't browbeat near as much as you do to convince people here who want to cure the genophage that it's the wrong thing to do. Bioware wrote both sides of that coin. If they didn't, there would be no question in anyone's the curing the genophage would be the right thing to do. You're just whining because the didn't right it lop-sided in the direction you want them to.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 15, 2021 2:22:49 GMT
Its nonsense to suggest the Krogan arc is written in an even handed way - the issue of the Genophage is *massively* slanted towards siding with the Krogan on this in all 3 games. In Mordin's Loyalty mission, arguing the Genophage was wrong gets that whole sequence of him starting to express his regrets and exploring religion etc in a very powerful and profound sequence whereas supporting the genophage in that same conversation gets... nothing. Same as Zaeed's mission where defying him over Vido gives a whole extra sequence of dialogue to turn his heartless attitude around and the endorsing his plan has no follow up at all - Vido is offed, mission over and Sheperd never raises any 'don't pull any crap like that again' or anything. Its clear the writers thought (correctly) that everyone would go Paragon on this and just chucked the Renegade version together in a 'Really? Well okay...but don't expect us to waste any interesting story time on your WRONG decision...' Same with ME3's Krogan route. Because that's what it is. On one side you have 4 fan favourite characters arguing for the cure (Wrex, Mordin, Kirrahe and Grunt). And on the other side you have... nobody. The new characters are similarly lop sided. Eve who has suffered much, fights and travels with you explaining along with Mordin how STG's original projections were flawed from a lack of knowledge about pre nuclear war Krogan society) and Dalatrass Linron who is written as a shrill, unrepentently racist old battleaxe. You honestly think they wrote that storyline thinking anyone give a damn about the potential consequences when every character but her supports the cure? When the Krogan are given tons of badass action scenes to win the crowd over the Questline compared to the *zero* that the genophage defenders get? Its obvious who they wanted you to side with - they don't even bother changing the music and tone of the dispersal cutscene. Its still treated as an uplifting rebirth event, a great injustice corrected etc. And if that wasn't enough they have the 'BRZZT WRONG you traitrous racist Swine' aftermath if you do support the Salarians (whose level of support is a joke anyway compared to the Krogan). And can we blame them? You may not think there's anything wrong with discarding your honour, living up to your agreements, supporting the rights of the unjustly persecuted using their rebellions at their treatment to crush them (Krogan, Geth) even harder. To be outraged when Legion conceals information due to centuries of evidence suggesting it will be suspected and stopped and wanting to show you the results instead of asking permission that organics have never traditionally given and have in fact attacked when the inquiry was made. The whole Krogan arc is written to brow beat players into supporting the Krogan and being for the cure. You have to shoot Mordin in the back to sabotage the deployment; or you have to meta-game a whole gamut of decisions thorough out the trilogy in order to make the pro-Genophage side seem even remotely appealing in ME3. And even when you do you have to not only purposely forego gameplay & narrative content but you ultimately still have to side with a one-dimensional, racist caricature at the end of it. There is no nuance for the Genophage debate, because BioWare intentionally wanted players to feel bad for a species they arbitrarily decided was the victim; despite how they originally wrote the background lore. How? I think a better term of what you are looking for is 'railroading' here rather then browbeating and there is no way I feel railroaded into that situation. First off the Salarians, led by a racist caricature or not, represent a much safer bet when it comes to war assets. The Krogan are, without the cure to the genophage, a dying species which has limited military assets aside from pure ground based military muscle. They work as mercenaries and fight amongst themselves but have no otherganized military assets to speak of in terms of naval or even land based means. Compare that to the Salarians, a Council species with a fleet, military training, and the premiere Special Forces organization in the galaxy. The safe practical tactical bet would be to agree with the Salarians, take the deal, and get their assets...especially since as others have pointed out from a certain point of view Wrex's demand is kind of selfish. Point 2 there are esentially three ways this can break down. Wrex and Bakara in joint leadership, Wrex alone, or Wreave...actually come to think of it I do not know if Wreave and Bakara can be within the same playthrough long term? But yeah basically with Wreave running things. Only one of these situations me/my Shepard supports a genophage cure without reservation. Bakara represents a calming influence on Wrex the yin to his yang...but even by hismself as much as Shepard might like him Wrex still makes references to 'reclaiming the glory of the ancients' so could be just as tyranical in the long term as anyone else, thus such reservations might lead Shepard to not wantintg to cure the genophage...and Wreave is pretty much straight out.
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