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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:41:19 GMT
Turians, krogan, vorcha and elcor all suffered from sameface in the OT. Turians, krogans, angara, and now asari suffer from it in ME:A. I'm not giving BioWare a pass, but on my list of immersion breaking things, sameface is somewhere near the bottom. BioWare should do better, of course, but realistically, they have constraints on them that obviously cause them to prioritize other things over npc faces. Such is the way producing a product on time and within the budget. You are giving Bioware a pass. I can understand the other races cause they are based on lizards, birds, and other creatures. Asari are essentially blue human females with tentacles in place for hair. In addition, as the above chart shows, in the MET there was more variety in Asari faces, so whats the excuse for MEA? Bioware dropped the ball, plain and simple. Agreed. The asari clones, and to a much lesser extent the rest of the alien designs, are the one thing in the game that I can't excuse. It looks like either they were incredibly short on time, or they were just lazy. Either way, it's something that really shouldn't happen.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 19:44:44 GMT
Turians, krogan, vorcha and elcor all suffered from sameface in the OT. Turians, krogans, angara, and now asari suffer from it in ME:A. I'm not giving BioWare a pass, but on my list of immersion breaking things, sameface is somewhere near the bottom. BioWare should do better, of course, but realistically, they have constraints on them that obviously cause them to prioritize other things over npc faces. Such is the way producing a product on time and within the budget. You are giving Bioware a pass. I can understand the other races cause they are based on lizards, birds, and other creatures. Asari are essentially blue human females with tentacles in place for hair. In addition, as the above chart shows, in the MET there was more variety in Asari faces, so whats the excuse for MEA? Like many other things in MEA, Bioware dropped the ball, plain and simple. No, I'm not. ME:A should of done better with the asari, of course. All I'm doing is looking at the reality of the situation, accepting it, and expressing my opinion that sameface is insignificant to me and the fact that it will not be changed as well as showing BW's previous track record for sameface. You all can harp on it as much as your hearts' desire, but that doesn't turn a minor issue into a massive one.
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Post by Sifr on Aug 9, 2017 20:01:39 GMT
Regarding the sameface, maybe the Asari just have less genetic diversity when it comes to physical appearance than humans do? That's why Morinth and Samara have the same face, even to the extent that Morinth can replace Samara in ME2 and no-one even seems to notice.
It's a handwave and yeah, MEA should have given more variety to the face models, but it didn't really bother me all that much. To be honest, I didn't even notice it was a thing until I saw that people were complaining on the forums about it.
Besides, the Inquisition forces in DAI seems to be made up entirely of clones of "Jim", so repeating NPCs isn't a new thing.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 9, 2017 20:08:27 GMT
You are giving Bioware a pass. I can understand the other races cause they are based on lizards, birds, and other creatures. Asari are essentially blue human females with tentacles in place for hair. In addition, as the above chart shows, in the MET there was more variety in Asari faces, so whats the excuse for MEA? Like many other things in MEA, Bioware dropped the ball, plain and simple. No, I'm not. ME:A should of done better with the asari, of course. All I'm doing is looking at the reality of the situation, accepting it, and expressing my opinion that sameface is insignificant to me and the fact that it will not be changed as well as showing BW's previous track record for sameface. You all can harp on it as much as your hearts' desire, but that doesn't turn a minor issue into a massive one. Your stance about Bioware's previous track record with same faces is baseless because as I and others have pointed out, the MET didnt use the same exact face for all Asari. Yes, they may have used 4-5 different models with varying differences in addition to unique faces for key NPCs, but that is still levels above what MEA had to offer for the Asari. So I am not sure where you are getting this, "MET used same faces for Asari" argument from. And just because you were able to brush it asside as something minor does not represent what others may perceive.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 20:15:05 GMT
No, I'm not. ME:A should of done better with the asari, of course. All I'm doing is looking at the reality of the situation, accepting it, and expressing my opinion that sameface is insignificant to me and the fact that it will not be changed as well as showing BW's previous track record for sameface. You all can harp on it as much as your hearts' desire, but that doesn't turn a minor issue into a massive one. Your stance about Bioware's previous track record with same faces is baseless because as I and others have pointed out, the MET didnt use the same exact face for all Asari. Yes, they may have used 4-5 different models with varying differences in addition to unique faces for key NPCs, but that is still levels above what MEA had to offer for the Asari. So I am not sure where you are getting this, "MET used same faces for Asari" argument from. And just because you were able to brush it asside as something minor does not represent what others may perceive. I never said the asari had the same faces in the OT. You are pulling that one out of thin air. Regardless, it isn't a major issue. A major issue would be "my game crashes" or "quests are glitched."
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 9, 2017 20:20:10 GMT
Your stance about Bioware's previous track record with same faces is baseless because as I and others have pointed out, the MET didnt use the same exact face for all Asari. Yes, they may have used 4-5 different models with varying differences in addition to unique faces for key NPCs, but that is still levels above what MEA had to offer for the Asari. So I am not sure where you are getting this, "MET used same faces for Asari" argument from. And just because you were able to brush it asside as something minor does not represent what others may perceive. I never said the asari had the same faces in the OT. You are pulling that one out of thin air. Regardless, it isn't a major issue. A major issue would be "my game crashes" or "quests are glitched." You cited Bioware's previous track record with same faces as some sort of argument/defense for the Asari situation in MEA. In terms of the Asari, Bioware's track record shows that all Asari didnt use the same face. My argument is if thet didnt use the same exact face for all Asari in MET, why couldnt they replicate that effort with the Asari in MEA?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 20:22:21 GMT
I never said the asari had the same faces in the OT. You are pulling that one out of thin air. Regardless, it isn't a major issue. A major issue would be "my game crashes" or "quests are glitched." You cited Bioware's previous track record with same faces as some sort of argument/defense for the Asari situation in MEA. In terms of the Asari, Bioware's track record shows that all Asari didnt use the same face. My argument is if thet didnt use the same exact face for all Asari in MET, why couldnt they replicate that effort with the Asari in MEA? I cited it because it is true. If Loltaku is to be trusted, then development was a nightmare. That would be the reason they didn't replicate that effort.
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Post by bshep on Aug 9, 2017 23:00:54 GMT
I never said the asari had the same faces in the OT. You are pulling that one out of thin air. Regardless, it isn't a major issue. A major issue would be "my game crashes" or "quests are glitched." You cited Bioware's previous track record with same faces as some sort of argument/defense for the Asari situation in MEA. In terms of the Asari, Bioware's track record shows that all Asari didnt use the same face. My argument is if thet didnt use the same exact face for all Asari in MET, why couldnt they replicate that effort with the Asari in MEA? Asari may have a few face models in the old trilogy but Krogans, Salarians and Turians were pretty much the same apart from a few characters. My guess is lack of time indeed, because those species don't suffer much from this OT "problem" in MEA while the Asari do. And i have to agree with Scepsis that this is not a major issue: bugs that break quests and the game are a major problem but not this.
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Post by danishgambit on Aug 9, 2017 23:34:57 GMT
Regarding the sameface, maybe the Asari just have less genetic diversity when it comes to physical appearance than humans do? That's why Morinth and Samara have the same face, even to the extent that Morinth can replace Samara in ME2 and no-one even seems to notice. It's a handwave and yeah, MEA should have given more variety to the face models, but it didn't really bother me all that much. To be honest, I didn't even notice it was a thing until I saw that people were complaining on the forums about it. Besides, the Inquisition forces in DAI seems to be made up entirely of clones of "Jim", so repeating NPCs isn't a new thing. Samara and Morinth are mother and daughter and both characters are modeled from the same woman. The whole look-alike thing was done for the b-story to actually work. Don't even get me started on General Harding and the clone army.
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Post by Reorte on Aug 9, 2017 23:35:48 GMT
How do you know that's how it works? I don't see any particular reason that the voices and the character models have to line up that way, the only unique template might be the markings and the colours (Peebee aside). That said it's more likely that every character, voiced or not, has a "use template X" and they just all happen to point at the same one. Certainly voiced lines won't have anything to do with it (and I'd guess that every human, asari, and angara share the same underlying model for lip synching). I know because I have been modding BW games for 13 years. In the old Aurora Engine, every NPC had a .utc, short for Unique Character Template with a little dyslexia. It is a pretty common structure. Different engine though. And it being tied to voiced NPCs sounds rather odd, since the rest need some customisation too, even if it's just colours.
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Post by Reorte on Aug 9, 2017 23:38:58 GMT
You are giving Bioware a pass. I can understand the other races cause they are based on lizards, birds, and other creatures. Asari are essentially blue human females with tentacles in place for hair. In addition, as the above chart shows, in the MET there was more variety in Asari faces, so whats the excuse for MEA? Like many other things in MEA, Bioware dropped the ball, plain and simple. No, I'm not. ME:A should of done better with the asari, of course. All I'm doing is looking at the reality of the situation, accepting it, and expressing my opinion that sameface is insignificant to me and the fact that it will not be changed as well as showing BW's previous track record for sameface. You all can harp on it as much as your hearts' desire, but that doesn't turn a minor issue into a massive one. It's a pretty big issue for a major race to be so blindingly obviously the same. Back in the days of KOTOR, with the limited resources the platforms could handle, it was understandable. Nowdays it's pretty much at the basics level, not much beyond having models instead of sprites for them. It doesn't break the game but it really does make it look very, very lazy and an AAA game that can't manage such things really isn't up to scratch these days.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Aug 10, 2017 0:12:45 GMT
Different engine though. And it being tied to voiced NPCs sounds rather odd, since the rest need some customisation too, even if it's just colours. I specified voice, because you don't need a custom .utc for every NPC in the game. The vast majority are spawned by script as generic recycled templates. This was done in the Unreal Engine, and obviously in the FrostByte 2 as well. When a character has a voice, that is not just ambient sound, that character (in a BioWare game) will also have a name, a specific face, sometimes a store attached or an item set they carry as part of their "look". Scripting events in FrostByte, and this is conjecture I admit, I would imagine is still a similar coding structure to C/C++. Because.
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Post by turianlannister on Aug 10, 2017 2:33:21 GMT
Lots of other higher priority things - like making Jaal bi and tweaking Hainly Abrams's dialogue. Providing gay players with a squadmate romance is higher priority than fixing the wank bait race and I'm saying this as someone who isn't really a Jaal fan
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Post by turianlannister on Aug 10, 2017 2:37:14 GMT
Has no one noticed the angaran women are all clones, too? And the turian women, and the krogan women and the salarian women?
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Post by Reorte on Aug 10, 2017 10:16:33 GMT
Has no one noticed the angaran women are all clones, too? And the turian women, and the krogan women and the salarian women? The angara have more human-looking faces than them, so it's rather more obvious, more so than the asari IMO because you see more angara in the same place more often than you do asari.
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Post by abaris on Aug 10, 2017 12:00:42 GMT
No, I'm not. ME:A should of done better with the asari, of course. All I'm doing is looking at the reality of the situation, accepting it, and expressing my opinion that sameface is insignificant to me and the fact that it will not be changed as well as showing BW's previous track record for sameface. You all can harp on it as much as your hearts' desire, but that doesn't turn a minor issue into a massive one. Let's be honest here. For you it's a minor issue, or at least you say so for arguments sake. For me as well as - obviously - others, it's a major immersion breaker. And by that I don't even mean the bulk of Asaris being clones. It's that they couldn't even be arsed to make quest relevant characters, such as Keri, Lexi or Sarissa unique.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 10, 2017 12:42:22 GMT
I don't mind recycling assets like faces in some situations. What made the Asari stand out so terribly in this game was that characters that you interacted with had the same face. Lexi and Keri should not have the same face, and I think the Asari pathfinder had the same face as well. That's what just made it unacceptable to me.
People keep saying they recycled models in other games, but in ME:1 for example the Asari counselor didn't have the same face as the Asari consort, or Shiala. The characters you actually interacted with had different faces. The dancers had the same model for example, that kind of thing I really don't care about.
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Post by abaris on Aug 10, 2017 12:58:46 GMT
People keep saying they recycled models in other games, but in ME:1 for example the Asari counselor didn't have the same face as the Asari consort, or Shiala. The characters you actually interacted with had different faces. The dancers had the same model for example, that kind of thing I really don't care about. What makes it doubly inexcusable is, as has been said, these are human femal faces with added tentacles. So what kept them from doing a few more faces, at the very least, for quest relevant characters?
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Post by cypherj on Aug 10, 2017 14:17:34 GMT
People keep saying they recycled models in other games, but in ME:1 for example the Asari counselor didn't have the same face as the Asari consort, or Shiala. The characters you actually interacted with had different faces. The dancers had the same model for example, that kind of thing I really don't care about. What makes it doubly inexcusable is, as has been said, these are human femal faces with added tentacles. So what kept them from doing a few more faces, at the very least, for quest relevant characters? Lexi was a crew member, how she doesn't get her own character model is beyond me.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 14:53:09 GMT
No, I'm not. ME:A should of done better with the asari, of course. All I'm doing is looking at the reality of the situation, accepting it, and expressing my opinion that sameface is insignificant to me and the fact that it will not be changed as well as showing BW's previous track record for sameface. You all can harp on it as much as your hearts' desire, but that doesn't turn a minor issue into a massive one. It's a pretty big issue for a major race to be so blindingly obviously the same. Back in the days of KOTOR, with the limited resources the platforms could handle, it was understandable. Nowdays it's pretty much at the basics level, not much beyond having models instead of sprites for them. It doesn't break the game but it really does make it look very, very lazy and an AAA game that can't manage such things really isn't up to scratch these days. ME:A's dev cycle...No, I'm not. ME:A should of done better with the asari, of course. All I'm doing is looking at the reality of the situation, accepting it, and expressing my opinion that sameface is insignificant to me and the fact that it will not be changed as well as showing BW's previous track record for sameface. You all can harp on it as much as your hearts' desire, but that doesn't turn a minor issue into a massive one. Let's be honest here. For you it's a minor issue, or at least you say so for arguments sake. For me as well as - obviously - others, it's a major immersion breaker. And by that I don't even mean the bulk of Asaris being clones. It's that they couldn't even be arsed to make quest relevant characters, such as Keri, Lexi or Sarissa unique. To quote, "For you it's a minor issue, or at least you say so for arguments sake." That being my opinion goes without saying.
For the rest of your post, Refer to this article. ME:A had a shitstorm of a dev cycle and I'm amazed that we managed to get what we did.
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Post by abaris on Aug 10, 2017 14:58:48 GMT
For the rest of your post, Refer to this article. ME:A had a shitstorm of a dev cycle and I'm amazed that we managed to get what we did. Read it the first time. Still no excuse that they couldn't be arsed to create four or five distinct (human) faces to slap on some blue paint and tentacles on top. For the four or five quest relevant Asaris.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 15:06:41 GMT
For the rest of your post, Refer to this article. ME:A had a shitstorm of a dev cycle and I'm amazed that we managed to get what we did. Read it the first time. Still no excuse that they couldn't be arsed to create four or five distinct (human) faces to slap on some blue paint and tentacles on top. For the four or five quest relevant Asaris. An excuse? No, of course not. But an explanation nevertheless.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 10, 2017 15:13:47 GMT
To quote, "For you it's a minor issue, or at least you say so for arguments sake." That being my opinion goes without saying.
For the rest of your post, Refer to this article. ME:A had a shitstorm of a dev cycle and I'm amazed that we managed to get what we did. People did this same thing with DA:2, I thought it was fine for only having 18 months of development. Personally, I don't handicap. AAA developer, full price tag, I grade games on the same scale regardless of if the game was in development for ten years or two, or what went on behind the scenes.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 15:24:39 GMT
To quote, "For you it's a minor issue, or at least you say so for arguments sake." That being my opinion goes without saying.
For the rest of your post, Refer to this article. ME:A had a shitstorm of a dev cycle and I'm amazed that we managed to get what we did. People did this same thing with DA:2, I thought it was fine for only having 18 months of development. Personally, I don't handicap. AAA developer, full price tag, I grade games on the same scale regardless of if the game was in development for ten years or two, or what went on behind the scenes. I would agree, but people keep demanding answers and the only answer we are ever going to get is the one I linked.
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Post by abaris on Aug 10, 2017 17:01:07 GMT
I would agree, but people keep demanding answers and the only answer we are ever going to get is the one I linked. That's not an answer. Even if you don't know the first thing about 3d modelling, it's obvious that an intern could have slapped five distinct faces on certain characters within a day. The working models are obviously there. All they needed was a range of blue colored human faces. Which could be done in virtuallly no time at all.
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