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Post by Label07 on Jun 13, 2017 3:27:04 GMT
My primary concern is this games "classes" failing to act as a class should. A "Colossus" should perform differently than a "Ranger" in as the video suggested the Colossus is designed for close proximity (will there be aggro mechanics?) attacking "tank", while the Ranger is meant to keep distance and damage enemies as much as possible "dps". These are two typical roles in a trinity class game. We are just missing a support/healer Javelin (hopefully more class types in the future; stealthy, auto-turret spawner - engineer, etc).
I really hope you are trying to craft an experience where picking a class actually matters rather than the Destiny route where each class feels like they are doing the same thing with different effects. The Destiny route is less about teamwork and more for each player for themselves. Please learn from their mistakes...
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Post by leadintea on Jun 13, 2017 3:49:45 GMT
I'm pretty sure they will. We've already seen the Colossus charge ahead to do a Nova type close range move on a group of enemies, while the Ranger class hung back and used the homing missiles to get rid of a group of enemies. As long as they limit moves to their appropriate Javelin, I'm sure they can make them actually matter, unlike what they did in MEA.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 13, 2017 7:46:05 GMT
I'm not hoping for MMO classes like tank - dps - healer. I rather have some freedom to play how I want. Will mean less yelling and blaming in PUG.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 13, 2017 12:18:08 GMT
I doubt there's going to be healers repairmen Javelin. It doesn't fit with how rundown all the stuff looks like everywhere.
I also suspect the Javelin are modular and some of the modules like the mortar or the MMM* module can be shared between certain models while others are exclusives.
*Macross Missile Massacre, it's the Trope name of the multi-missiles salvo attack.
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 13, 2017 12:24:30 GMT
I think we'll see distinctive play styles from different Javelins, though they look to be pretty modular.
I hope we'll get a few more variants but I doubt we'll get a healer.
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Post by lynx7386 on Jun 13, 2017 12:40:06 GMT
Chances are we won't have "tank/dps/healer", it will probably be more like destiny.
However I disagree with your claim that destiny classes all play the same - there is definitely a distinction between titan, hunter, and Warwick when it comes to playstyle.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 13:02:55 GMT
I'm not hoping for MMO classes like tank - dps - healer. I rather have some freedom to play how I want. Will mean less yelling and blaming in PUG. No, because this means they will add mechanics that everyone HAS to do, and they still might have mechanics requiring a particular type of an attack or a specific type of stun, that only your type can possess, so if you don't do iframes right or don't know that apparently your class always lifts or stuns or burns or whatever the boss when the boss does Attack X, OR that under no circumstances you should do attack Y when the boss does Z, you will get yelled at plenty. Plus, if it's all DPS, they will put DPS checks in, and there is no yelling like the DPS dick comparison yelling, particularly when it gear dependent, and when you rip aggro with it. Because the argument: well, I am trying to do this because I am undergeared... never flies well. Peeps will always put uber gear requirements so they can just DPS through mechanics fast, so people who actually need gear, will never get into the pugs that get them gear. Tank/heals reduce yelling ratio. When you play heals/buffer, peeps are more forgiving. a new tank is the worst role ever, obviously, but by some reason they kept tanks in the bastardized Trinity. I'd rather they kept DPS and heals out of the three. not that it matters, b/c yes, healers/priests are being cut for convenience in modern gaming.
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Post by Label07 on Jun 13, 2017 13:58:45 GMT
Thanks for all the input thus far. Helps seeing other opinions.
With roles when people undertake these roles they know what they are signing up for. Not always does the tank/healer get blamed, sometimes (it is more rare) the dps is blamed for lack usually or just failing mechanics which anyone can do.
The great thing about having roles is you are an essential cog (no matter which role you choose) to the group (Squad). You are not just some faceless replacement, another warm body that can rez another player like in Destiny.
In Destiny you can equip ANY WEAPON no matter what class you are, should this be revised and only certain classes can use certain weaponry?
If there were healers/buffers/repair-Javelins I'm sure the emphasis is not going to be spam "Flash Heal" on each party member to keep them alive lol, I would think it would be an ability they possess which would be on a CD. This ensures the player is not bogged down with healing mechanics constantly once every X seconds they need to be aware, giving more emphasis for them to focus on enemies.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 14:47:20 GMT
Actually, if I heal, I want to heal. Target swapping between 4 peeps is challenging enough, and autotargeting in my experience does not handle enemy/friend target selections well in a jumble. Also, if each character only has three abilities, a HoT, a buff/shield and a burst heal is already three slots. Which only leave autoattack, which is fine for adding DPS were the DPS check is so tight you need heals to DPS, but honestly, if your Hurts need heals to add an auto-attack to pass checks routinely, in a 3-button rotation..... or we can be dropping heal buff on the ground, for the other peeps to run through or AoE heal channel, fine then, I'll DPS with other two abilities, but it's not heals. It's a DPS with offheals.
i dunno, I played as heals a lot, and I always liked the cooperation that went into working with the tanks and coheals. I found it much harder to focus fire as DPS, which is the essential DPS skill. Dunno if I manage to learn it tbh.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 13, 2017 15:40:55 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2017 16:42:10 GMT
That's not healing, that's the predefined character problem. Most of my heals were male avatars, and folks never had a problem with it, though, yep, a lot expects a healer to be a buxom female avatar, and have that fantasy that all healers are girls. (Shrug) in any mp game, I'll just pick male avatars, type & respond to dude, bro and mate.
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Post by Cyonan on Jun 13, 2017 18:03:05 GMT
Personally I don't want to see the holy trinity show up in this game. Especially in a group of 4 where half my party now needs to be a tank or a healer.
I find that the strengths of these games tends to be the ability to play what I want when I want, not "Well I really want to play the Ranger but we need a tank so I'll have to go Colossus again" or if I'm doing matchmaking "Well I really want to play the Ranger but it will take 20 minutes to find a group because nobody wants to tank or heal".
Beyond that I hope there is a good variety of Javelins and that they have distinct playstyles.
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Post by Fogg on Jun 13, 2017 19:29:44 GMT
Also PUGs in SWTOR too so long if you were DPS
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2017 21:12:17 GMT
I very much doubt there will be any kind of healer role, or any kind of support role for that matter. Destiny has three classes with no support role: Hunter, Titan and Warlock. Hunter is part stealthy stabber, part sniper. Titan is part tank and heavy weapons, part speed/rapid assault. Warlock is DPS and ranged attacker. Healing is mostly by drops that you collect like ammo, along the lines of Doom.
Maybe the Colossus suit might fill an overwatch role, in the sense of suppressive fire. At most, maybe some of the Javelin upgrades have passive support abilities, like, buff armor on all nearby squad mates, sort of thing.
The Division does have a healer role, Medic, so it's not impossible for an co-op action-rpg to have a role like that. But, given the trend of Bioware moving away from healer/support as a role, instead of some kind of gear or passive effect, I'm skeptical.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 13, 2017 21:19:54 GMT
Without assigning functions to specific roles, these are the functions I'd like to see Javelin suits cover, one way or the other: - Sniper
- Heavy weapons/BFG/Wide area of effect
- Demolition/explosives/traps
- Run-and-gun
- Close combat/melee
- Hunter/animal tracker/beast whisperer
- Recon/aerial recon
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Post by Label07 on Jun 13, 2017 23:08:05 GMT
A key problem by not having dedicated group roles is the one man army mentality players get into (especially geared players). Once this happens, there is no need to communicate nor work together. As I had previously made the point the other players are just warm bodies filling a slot at that point. This is how Destiny is. Even if a player wanted to play a support role in Destiny it's practically impossible, you are all DPS until "Super Charged".
Destiny got their roles at least in how they should play, a bit wrong. The titan, logic would dictate is a close range attacker (tank), and they do have some abilities to cater to this, yet the Warlock has an over-shield on melee hit whereas the titan does have this but it has to be on kill... so much for tanky build for titan. Each feels they die just as fast as the other, so no real class fantasy there. I'd rather this game not go that same route. At first glance it would appear the Colossus is beefier and may have more HP, take more damage than other Javelins, that's a good start.
The Division would be a better example on how to approach classes, except you make your own class instead of choose it, which is not (from what we know) how this game is going to play. This game is more like Warframe with the different Javelins.
Two or Three sets of abilities for each button to choose from in each Javelin? This would be nice and create somewhat unique creations throughout the community.
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Post by Label07 on Jun 13, 2017 23:22:50 GMT
I read part of that article...people never fail to surprise in their depravity. But you know what, it's their freedom of choice to do such things... Not really sure how that article applies to the discussion. I've never experienced such behavior playing MMOs on characters I healed with (primarily female avatars). It's not prevalent like you may be imagining (at least to the best of my knowledge).
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Post by PermTrouble on Jun 14, 2017 2:35:22 GMT
I think I'd prefer trinity over everyone running around in circles. Tho I didn't care for GW2
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Post by PillarBiter on Jun 14, 2017 10:55:37 GMT
I'd like a melee class that has more than 1 melee animation, please.
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Post by Kroitz on Jun 14, 2017 11:11:28 GMT
The class with the 'rocket punch!' ability will matter most.
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Post by boyaki on Jun 14, 2017 15:07:14 GMT
Old class system is kind of outdated. By old I mean one like dragon age or world of warcraft. Using a 6-8 baseline abilities which are pretty much fixed damage with a cooldown which in turn create cycle or priority order which is not very fun.
The current class system is more about few mechanic but meaningful, games like every Moba, Borderlands, ME:A, Overwatch or Warframe are good example of this. In those game the "class" has only few move, but those are signature moves not like a fireball of a mage that is pretty much the same thing in term of mechanic than the explosive arrow of a ranger or the chaosbolt of a warlock. The other aspect is that the class mechanic is not limited to the number of active abilities but play around the rule of a game. Soldier 76 will run faster, while genji can run on wall, pharah can fly and widowmaker can use her hook. Those are 4 ways to play around one of the most basic mechanic : movement.
In ME:A those exists as well. Some profiles or skill upgrade your abilty to aim, to hover, to target, to run, to cover the type of weapon you use and so on... In anthem those are easily imaginable. Passive and active skill in a few number can enforce a play style. For example the colossus seems to jump higher than the ranger, and his signature move seems to be that crushing aoe, I suspect also it has better resilience than other Javelin. Those things make him a good bruiser and can engage a large pack of enemies. The "mage" hover and seem to have some sort of shield pretty sure its not the active ability.
Le left ability is related to the piece of equipement and is independent of the armor. I would say the same about the right ability as it seems to use some kind of ressource. The two last players does not have a huge piece of equipement on their shoulder so maybe those abilty slots are not only use for heavy weaponry. Those might be useful for other build like close combat, tanking or some support.
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Post by Label07 on Jun 14, 2017 19:44:28 GMT
The current class system is more about few mechanic but meaningful, games like every Moba, Borderlands, ME:A, Overwatch or Warframe are good example of this. In those game the "class" has only few move, but those are signature moves not like a fireball of a mage that is pretty much the same thing in term of mechanic than the explosive arrow of a ranger or the chaosbolt of a warlock. This kind of system is exactly what I was referring to when I stated the healer/repair/support should be primarily focused on targets rather than constant healing. With the limited abilities it seems we possess (3), a Borderlands type support/healer is the best model to strive for. As I had previously stated as well, it would be nice to have more than 1 ability for each quick use slot or ultimate. Players can mix and combo what they feel fits their play-style instead of being locked into what by default is given to them.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Jun 14, 2017 19:58:57 GMT
A key problem by not having dedicated group roles is the one man army mentality players get into (especially geared players). Once this happens, there is no need to communicate nor work together. As I had previously made the point the other players are just warm bodies filling a slot at that point. That is a very good point. And the reassurance that singleplayer is supported pretty much insures that one man army has to be supported. Which means complementary roles that only work in a squad setting is unlikely -- at least, in general. It could be that raids/strikes that require squads either activate skills you can't use in the general setting (raid-only, if you will), or complementary skills that have no purpose in general suddenly become useful (that's a bad option, but possible). And by "skills", I mean whatever features are in the loadout of a Javelin. It will be interesting to see if you carry skills generically across suits, or only through Javelin suits. I think that was intentional. They tore up the traditional class trinity and remade it, which I think was a good call. Agreed. As long as that flexibility doesn't come at the cost of too much complexity, I like systems that let the community (read, minmaxers) figure out the best options for different situations.
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Post by lynx7386 on Jun 14, 2017 20:45:54 GMT
I admit I'm torn in this subject. On the one hand I like the freedom that comes from games like destiny where there are no true tanks or healers. On the other, I really miss my old mmo days where you could really stand out in those trinity roles.
Given what we've seen so far, though, I highly doubt we'll have trinity style class roles here. Chances are it will be more like destiny, with everyone more or less equal in toughness and damage, and only variations in playstyle
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Post by Label07 on Jun 14, 2017 22:48:48 GMT
I admit I'm torn in this subject. On the one hand I like the freedom that comes from games like destiny where there are no true tanks or healers. On the other, I really miss my old mmo days where you could really stand out in those trinity roles. Given what we've seen so far, though, I highly doubt we'll have trinity style class roles here. Chances are it will be more like destiny, with everyone more or less equal in toughness and damage, and only variations in playstyle It's a slim chance what we type on these forums will ever see an impact on this game. Hope, however. It is still early and since this is the first reveal and hell..this forum was JUST created a day after the "gameplay" reveal. Entirely possible devs could take what is posted and integrate. I'm not torn, BUT, I do understand the key differences. In Destiny since people are just warm bodies for a 3man squad it is incredibly easy to find/create groups for practically anything. I understand how annoying it can be to main a DPS and have queue times that last 30min+ (this is why I main tank ). With a good group/matchmaking system this could be abolished. I am a firm believer in INCENTIVES. Give players a reason or extras and they WILL submit. If a DPS has been looking for a particular dungeon/strike (w/e they're going to call them) for 5min+ give the healer/tank incentives bonus rewards to queue, this works vica versa if tanks/healers have waited 5min+. Maybe an ON-CALL feature that will notify a person (if they sign up for it) when they are needed and for what instance/event/etc.. Trinity makes players feel needed rather than just another generic player.
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