Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Sept 25, 2016 0:03:30 GMT
With an attitude like that, how are we to believe they won't try the same old thing again? More heavy-handed allegory. More hijacking of characters. More railroading. After all, this is "Art" to their mind, who cares if it goes over the heads of the peons who buy the game? Especially with Mac at the helm? I think the ending conception was Casey Hudson's. I don't think Mac Walters would be able to come up with something like that. The danger is that he might want to "do it right this time". Doing it right, that's just telling the story and not forcing in any themes that don't come naturally into it. One hopes that enough influential people at Bioware agree with that to do that. It's not just the ending, though that is by far the most egregious offense. It's the general railroading (I was not opposed to the concept of working for Cerberus, but the method used to bring that bout was extremely heavy-handed and "DM Fiat", the space magic used to get out of corners they've written themselves into, like the Lazarus Project (or the Crucible). OR the really bad, if not outright circular logic to justify some concept that needs to be "true" or the entire story falls apart.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 25, 2016 6:50:09 GMT
...how do you tell a good story (a power fantasy, no less) about the hero(es) defeating an enemy that outclasses them so hilariously? And how do you finish it without compromising one side or another? I still think this ending scenario written by Elyvern and me would've worked nicely. It has the advantage of having been written before we knew anything about ME3's ending, so it's free of any ballast, and I think it works both on a strategic and an emotional level, i.e. it makes sense and it would've been satisfying. Edit: From now on, I'll link to Fextralife when I refer to old threads. Does anyone know if they have an advanced search function over there? I couldn't find one, so I had to check the date on BSN Prime and home in on the page covering that date on Fextralife to find it.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 25, 2016 7:16:05 GMT
I think the ending conception was Casey Hudson's. I don't think Mac Walters would be able to come up with something like that. The danger is that he might want to "do it right this time". Doing it right, that's just telling the story and not forcing in any themes that don't come naturally into it. One hopes that enough influential people at Bioware agree with that to do that. It's not just the ending, though that is by far the most egregious offense. It's the general railroading (I was not opposed to the concept of working for Cerberus, but the method used to bring that bout was extremely heavy-handed and "DM Fiat", the space magic used to get out of corners they've written themselves into, like the Lazarus Project (or the Crucible). OR the really bad, if not outright circular logic to justify some concept that needs to be "true" or the entire story falls apart. I'll add "butchering the lore and ignoring simple logic for drama or for desired but not naturally arising themes" DAI did this, too (see Krem and the Qun), but in this case it's more "lore contortion" - you see how they had to give things a not really plausible twist but at least there aren't any outright contradictions, and at least they made an efffort. I can respect that. In ME3 it appears they didn't put any thought at all into it. Regarding MEA, things will be a little easier since they leave a large body of lore behind as irrelevant, but the attitude matters. Writing with "I don't care about what I wrote yesterday" will inevitably screw things up.
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Iakus
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,288 Likes: 50,639
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Post by Iakus on Sept 25, 2016 16:21:32 GMT
Writing with "I don't care about what I wrote yesterday" will inevitably screw things up. QFT
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 25, 2016 17:10:12 GMT
I still think this ending scenario written by Elyvern and me would've worked nicely. It has the advantage of having been written before we knew anything about ME3's ending, so it's free of any ballast, and I think it works both on a strategic and an emotional level, i.e. it makes sense and it would've been satisfying. Interesting. I've read just the synopsis thus far but it's close to my original ideas when I just rejected the "art", if you recall, just with the Crucible added since we knew about it. Great minds think alike. More recently though, there's been the argument that if the Reapers started really losing, they'd just go scorched earth and start dropping asteroids on our worlds. We know they're capable of writing off species and not harvesting them and their mandate would be stop the rise of synthetics first, preserve second. The reason conventional warfare can't be done isn't just their more advanced capabilities it's also their overall lack of weaknesses and dependencies vs our many ones. They can only be stopped by their complete destruction, we can be stopped by so many things. Still, your scenario has many things I like. I'll read the rest of it and we can take it to PM (or make a new thread in ME3 story and lore) if you're interested in discussing it. Writing with "I don't care about what I wrote yesterday" will inevitably screw things up. True. But unlike the naysayers on here, I don't think Andromeda is being written with "I don't care about yesterday". In fact, if that were true, they would've just done a sequel in the Milky Way and ignored the ending or conflated the choices together, or even broke their rules and declared a canon ("we will not set canon" was also put in writing, if I recall). Ironic that what they ask for requires the very thing they accuse the devs of. But while "I don't care what I wrote" isn't the best policy, a level of "I don't want to be chained to what I wrote" is healthy and acceptable I think. Writers are allowed to want to go in different directions and do different things. We should still expect consistency, of course. Simply turning around and contradicting themselves is bad form. But leaving it intact and inventing new ways to go off in a different direction is perfectly fine. Now I won't necessarily attribute some noble new artistic vision for Andromeda, just as I didn't for the endings. The fact is they want to make a new Mass Effect game because they and EA want money and it's still a powerful recognizable brand. But that doesn't exclude wanting to do something new and cool with it (even if that "new" thing is just going back to their roots) and the most important thing is they're going about it the right way. It's not ignoring or discarding the trilogy, quite the opposite. It's letting it stand and going off a few doors down to build the next project. Continuity is maintained, nothing major is retconned. And people who whine about "but I want to still be in the Milky Way and see how things turned out" get no sympathy from me because they sound awfully close to the "closure" people in the spring of 2012 who only wanted to see pretty pictures of their waifus, so they turned on the rest of us who wanted more and accepted the EC thus dooming any chance at real change. Not everything needs to be spelled out for you. We won, people are rebuilding. Go ahead and imagine what that is (your EC even gives you some jumping off points with the slideshows), I guarantee you what you come up with will be more satisfying for you than what Bioware could do, even if you gave them a decade and a billion dollars.
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Post by Ieldra on Sept 25, 2016 18:26:10 GMT
Still, your scenario has many things I like. I'll read the rest of it and we can take it to PM (or make a new thread in ME3 story and lore) if you're interested in discussing it. I would be interested. MEA has the advantage that it's a new "first" game, so they have not such a large body of lore to integrate, but we can't say yet they're going about it the right way. That depends on details like "how will they anchor the start of the Andromeda expedition in the history of the Milky Way's civilization?" or how they handle the krogan/genophage problem. That's easy to do with a little thought, but also easy to screw up if you just think about what's "cool". We'll see. I've said that MEA will have to attract me from the ground up, since ME3 has destroyed my interest in playing further games. As it appears, they are on a good track to recapturing ME1's mood of exploring new worlds. If they'll also go back to ME1's "details before drama" style, they'll have me again, but I'm less confident in that.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 26, 2016 0:58:27 GMT
MEA has the advantage that it's a new "first" game, so they have not such a large body of lore to integrate, but we can't say yet they're going about it the right way. That depends on details like "how will they anchor the start of the Andromeda expedition in the history of the Milky Way's civilization?" or how they handle the krogan/genophage problem. That's easy to do with a little thought, but also easy to screw up if you just think about what's "cool". We'll see. I've said that MEA will have to attract me from the ground up, since ME3 has destroyed my interest in playing further games. As it appears, they are on a good track to recapturing ME1's mood of exploring new worlds. If they'll also go back to ME1's "details before drama" style, they'll have me again, but I'm less confident in that. Well they've started in the right direction at least, with the preservation of continuity and an in-universe reason for the type of reset we're seeing. Of course there are still many things that can go wrong. We'll have to wait and see if they steer clear of pitfalls they've fallen into in the past.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 26, 2016 4:48:08 GMT
Well they've started in the right direction at least, with the preservation of continuity and an in-universe reason for the type of reset we're seeing. Of course there are still many things that can go wrong. We'll have to wait and see if they steer clear of pitfalls they've fallen into in the past. What makes you say that? We have no idea how they are going to do this reset.
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Post by CrutchCricket on Sept 26, 2016 14:13:55 GMT
Well they've started in the right direction at least, with the preservation of continuity and an in-universe reason for the type of reset we're seeing. Of course there are still many things that can go wrong. We'll have to wait and see if they steer clear of pitfalls they've fallen into in the past. What makes you say that? We have no idea how they are going to do this reset. Exactly what I said. Preservation of continuity and in-universe reason for the move. At least that's what I've seen from all the announcements/leaks, though I admit I haven't been following everything. Do you have a source that says otherwise?
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