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Post by colfoley on Jul 5, 2017 22:15:07 GMT
My Warden's stoy ended with Witch Hunt. I do not want, require, or expect more out of BioWare. Sure their involvement in the world of Thedas may not be over, but now is the time for new heroes. Personally, disagree. Witch Hunt's ending is so barebones that you can't call it an ending, and that's coming from someone who pursued Morrigan. They got together again, at least mine, and...? OK more to the point that was the epilogue of my Warden's story. My Warden's story got its ending in Awakening. But as far as its concerned my Warden's story needed no further embellishment after Witch Hunt. Witch Hunt was an obvious bridge.
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Post by Croatsky on Jul 5, 2017 22:38:57 GMT
How anyone could take something seriously that claims the two groups will be called the 'Ancient' and the 'Arrogant' is beyond me. Well clearly Ancient are the Remnant and Arrogant are the Kett, duh.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 5, 2017 23:22:56 GMT
The comments are as interesting as the article. Dare I? Take a deep breath... and then dive in.
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 5, 2017 23:28:50 GMT
Personally, disagree. Witch Hunt's ending is so barebones that you can't call it an ending, and that's coming from someone who pursued Morrigan. They got together again, at least mine, and...? OK more to the point that was the epilogue of my Warden's story. My Warden's story got its ending in Awakening. But as far as its concerned my Warden's story needed no further embellishment after Witch Hunt. Witch Hunt was an obvious bridge. A very cool bridge into Inquisition. Morrigan. I love thee. Crazy, insensitive woman, but I love thee.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2017 23:44:34 GMT
And that was only one game. Three games and I guess what you get is what we've seen. And of course, the warden just went off to look for a cure. Nothing so traumatic as left dead under a pile of rubble while said galaxy burns and said crew leaves said hero for dead. I'm starting to think BW pretty much loaded that gun and shot themselves in the foot 4 times. One for the crew. One for the galaxy. One for the endings. And one for shepard. There was no way MEA was going to get as well received with that kind of emotional baggage. Of course, you can't really blame BW completely. They clearly didn't understand the stewing rage of a fandom that's been wronged. Probably having to hammer into their skulls that shepard is dead repeatedly over the years should have been taken as a sign or warning of sorts. File it under things to never ever, ever do to your fan base. I don't see why. I mean crap this just seems to be something unique to the ME fanbase. I mean sure there is grumblings here and there that we can't be the Warden but it does not threaten to destroy the cohesiveness of entire franchises, I mean DA seems to quite able to continue with new protags. The Doctor Who fandom is quite content with major characters getting replaced on a semi regular basis and even the protagonist of the show changes whole bodies and personalities every few years. And Game of Thrones and Walking Dead are quite capable of absorbing the emotional impact of having main characters routinely and savagely slaughtered (though the Glenn thing was a bit much). And then Trek and Gate both went on to have spin offs with little or nothing to do with the show that came before. Though it can be argued some wasn't successful. My oint is though...what is the phemnon here that has caused Shepard to reach such monumentarily popular status where literally nothing could replace them? I mean I get it, I loved Shepard to, but all stories come to an end eventually. In which case they can stay dead, or we can try something new. From my perspective it is quite different to have some characters for one game or book than to have them for a series that is essentially alive and going strong for a decade. That is why I think Rowling is doing apologies now. She's probably face some backlash from that. Also, keep in mind that having fans that are likely at some level of still formative years could end up being pretty crushed. Or that those fans might be more immersed in that fandom or series because that is their outlet or escape from reality. Doctor who as a norm did not kill off people. Even when they killed off the doctor, he was STILL the doctor. Trek and Gate did not kill off more than a few (bringing them back from the dead too) and never killed off a fan favorite main character that they didn't bring back to some degree after their death (Looking at Daniel Jackson here). Gate was notorious for bringing people back from the dead. Trek didn't really kill anyone but a random one or two characters. Game of Thrones and the Walking Dead are wholly different in nature. Killing characters off is basically what they do. Dead is central to their stories as well as their themes. The harsh and brutal nature of those worlds is just that. Harsh and brutal. People die. A. Lot. Compare that to Doctor Who, Gate, or whatever other fandom where the theme is lighter and rosier and I think you'll see that the rosier shows or games don't come to brimstone and hell, galaxy frelled kind of endings. I think that is why people went sideways with ME3's ending, because previously the endings were totally different. You are a shining hero at the end of ME1 and ME2 while you could kill everyone, if you didn't want to do that, it was kind of an epic feeling ending. You were always able to control your outcomes. With ME3 there are no takebacks. No control of the outcomes other than which ending which you may or may not feel good about them. If people can feel good about them then they walk away feeling content. But the endings are the thing that has been in controversy since march 2012. Personally I don't really care about MET anymore though I might replay it some day. I was shocked at how it ended then moved on. Clearly though, that didn't really happen with a sizable chunk of fans. Seems maybe that left them rather bitter.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 5, 2017 23:48:39 GMT
And that was only one game. Three games and I guess what you get is what we've seen. And of course, the warden just went off to look for a cure. Nothing so traumatic as left dead under a pile of rubble while said galaxy burns and said crew leaves said hero for dead. I'm starting to think BW pretty much loaded that gun and shot themselves in the foot 4 times. One for the crew. One for the galaxy. One for the endings. And one for shepard. There was no way MEA was going to get as well received with that kind of emotional baggage. Of course, you can't really blame BW completely. They clearly didn't understand the stewing rage of a fandom that's been wronged. Probably having to hammer into their skulls that shepard is dead repeatedly over the years should have been taken as a sign or warning of sorts. File it under things to never ever, ever do to your fan base. I'm not shocked. You had one character for three games. It may have been the Mass Effect universe, but it was Shepard's story. I don't know if you ever watched 24, but the main character of that show was Jack Bauer, and he was the show. They tried to bring back the show calling it 24 Legacy, and I think it's going to be canceled after one season. People probably didn't accept that show without Jack Bauer as the lead. Then when ME:A stumbled out of the gate, it just gave people an excuse to really go after it. If they were going to bring it back, it had to be better than good to grab all the OT players, and then they could strike while the iron was hot and release DLC and another game quickly, like they did with DA:O after release. But instead, they had to spend all their times fixing the vanilla game. I'm not sure the 24:Legacy example fits. The show started OK, but couldn't hold the audience. It wasn't all that good. And Fox doesn't believe that 24 requires Bauer to succeed, since they're already looking into a different way to continue.
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Post by edisnooM on Jul 6, 2017 0:00:42 GMT
Personally, disagree. Witch Hunt's ending is so barebones that you can't call it an ending, and that's coming from someone who pursued Morrigan. They got together again, at least mine, and...? OK more to the point that was the epilogue of my Warden's story. My Warden's story got its ending in Awakening. But as far as its concerned my Warden's story needed no further embellishment after Witch Hunt. Witch Hunt was an obvious bridge. I'm with Mr Lucas on this one, I went in to Witch Hunt expecting an epilogue / ending but came away with more questions than answers. Flemeth is not even truly human, change is coming etc. etc, through the Eluvian and then done? And to be perfectly honest the way the Dark Ritual was wrapped up in DA:I was extraordinarily disappointing. I mean I can kind of see why, they really couldn't do anything big with an optional choice but still, an Old God reborn seems like it should have mattered slightly more.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 0:01:29 GMT
For laughs, the many deaths of Daniel Jackson (because they would not let him die) - link to letting him live petition. My point is killing off beloved characters doesn't usually go well. Not with a game series like MET. Didn't go well for SG-1 either. www.savedanieljackson.com/www.savedanieljackson.com/WBDaniel/
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 0:25:25 GMT
Rumor mills are wrong all the time. That doesn't stop drama and hysteria though.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 6, 2017 0:54:04 GMT
For laughs, the many deaths of Daniel Jackson (because they would not let him die) - link to letting him live petition. My point is killing off beloved characters doesn't usually go well. Not with a game series like MET. Didn't go well for SG-1 either. www.savedanieljackson.com/www.savedanieljackson.com/WBDaniel/How applicable is this to ME, though. If anyone dies in ME, it's the player's fault. (Legion excepted.)
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 6, 2017 1:01:55 GMT
OK more to the point that was the epilogue of my Warden's story. My Warden's story got its ending in Awakening. But as far as its concerned my Warden's story needed no further embellishment after Witch Hunt. Witch Hunt was an obvious bridge. I'm with Mr Lucas on this one, I went in to Witch Hunt expecting an epilogue / ending but came away with more questions than answers. Flemeth is not even truly human, change is coming etc. etc, through the Eluvian and then done? Wait... you're saying that opening up more stuff for the game-world was bad?
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Post by edisnooM on Jul 6, 2017 1:07:28 GMT
I'm with Mr Lucas on this one, I went in to Witch Hunt expecting an epilogue / ending but came away with more questions than answers. Flemeth is not even truly human, change is coming etc. etc, through the Eluvian and then done? Wait... you're saying that opening up more stuff for the game-world was bad? No (although they do seem to have a problem with opening up more stuff and then not doing anything with it, or at least not for years / games) but when I thought it was going to be closing out my Wardens story it instead started opening up more questions. Also nearly everything it alluded to, a) didn't really get brought up again until DA:I, and really didn't go anywhere when it did.
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Post by AnDromedary on Jul 6, 2017 1:14:02 GMT
I don't see why. I mean crap this just seems to be something unique to the ME fanbase. I mean sure there is grumblings here and there that we can't be the Warden but it does not threaten to destroy the cohesiveness of entire franchises, I mean DA seems to quite able to continue with new protags. The Doctor Who fandom is quite content with major characters getting replaced on a semi regular basis and even the protagonist of the show changes whole bodies and personalities every few years. And Game of Thrones and Walking Dead are quite capable of absorbing the emotional impact of having main characters routinely and savagely slaughtered (though the Glenn thing was a bit much). And then Trek and Gate both went on to have spin offs with little or nothing to do with the show that came before. Though it can be argued some wasn't successful. My oint is though...what is the phemnon here that has caused Shepard to reach such monumentarily popular status where literally nothing could replace them? I mean I get it, I loved Shepard to, but all stories come to an end eventually. In which case they can stay dead, or we can try something new. From my perspective it is quite different to have some characters for one game or book than to have them for a series that is essentially alive and going strong for a decade. That is why I think Rowling is doing apologies now. She's probably face some backlash from that. Also, keep in mind that having fans that are likely at some level of still formative years could end up being pretty crushed. Or that those fans might be more immersed in that fandom or series because that is their outlet or escape from reality. Doctor who as a norm did not kill off people. Even when they killed off the doctor, he was STILL the doctor. Trek and Gate did not kill off more than a few (bringing them back from the dead too) and never killed off a fan favorite main character that they didn't bring back to some degree after their death (Looking at Daniel Jackson here). Gate was notorious for bringing people back from the dead. Trek didn't really kill anyone but a random one or two characters. Game of Thrones and the Walking Dead are wholly different in nature. Killing characters off is basically what they do. Dead is central to their stories as well as their themes. The harsh and brutal nature of those worlds is just that. Harsh and brutal. People die. A. Lot. Compare that to Doctor Who, Gate, or whatever other fandom where the theme is lighter and rosier and I think you'll see that the rosier shows or games don't come to brimstone and hell, galaxy frelled kind of endings. I think that is why people went sideways with ME3's ending, because previously the endings were totally different. You are a shining hero at the end of ME1 and ME2 while you could kill everyone, if you didn't want to do that, it was kind of an epic feeling ending. You were always able to control your outcomes. With ME3 there are no takebacks. No control of the outcomes other than which ending which you may or may not feel good about them. If people can feel good about them then they walk away feeling content. But the endings are the thing that has been in controversy since march 2012. Personally I don't really care about MET anymore though I might replay it some day. I was shocked at how it ended then moved on. Clearly though, that didn't really happen with a sizable chunk of fans. Seems maybe that left them rather bitter. I tend to agree. Given where ME is coming from and takes most of its inspiration from, it's not a big surprise that loosing Shepard was a big deal. Shows like Star Trek, Star Gate, Babylon 5 were very careful with that sort of thing. Even the new Battlestar Galaxtica only had very carefully chosen deaths. And Mass Effect had those chosen deaths as well. The whole Kaidan/Ash thing was a big deal. ME2 was all about (not) loosing people. Mordin, Thane and Legion served as the mandatory dramatic death toll in ME3, not to mention a whole lot of minor characters that die on the side. Dragon Age, which is inspired much more on stories like Song of Ice and Fire comes with a completely different set of expectations in this regard. Besides, Shepard was handled really unconventionally. First of all, he (sticking with the male pronoun for simplicity here) had his "trial by fire" death in ME2 and was resurrected. Usually, at that point, the death card is played in a scifi franchise. Now, I am not saying that going against convention is a bad thing but contrary to intuition, scifi fans are usually a fairly conservative bunch and if you go against the tropes, you gotta do it very carefully or expect trouble. Personally, my main problem with Shepard's death was more that they didn't just kill him, the put him in this Schroedinger's Protagonist state with the breath scene. IMO that's not a place to leave your protagonist in, at least not if you truly intend not to revisit them. It also doesn't help that ME is a game and as people are playing Shepard and making decisions as Shepard, it's clear they they identify much more with the character than a movie/tv-show protagonist, which makes killing them off an even more delicate issue. I have made my peace with Shepard's death, I think it works within the story (and I consider my canon ending Shepards dead despite the breath scene) but the sheer amount of head canon that has to go into this is IMO one of the main reasons this was such a big issue. So having more trouble with the ME fans, than the DA fans is not really a surprise to me.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 6, 2017 2:00:41 GMT
Wait... you're saying that opening up more stuff for the game-world was bad? No (although they do seem to have a problem with opening up more stuff and then not doing anything with it, or at least not for years / games) but when I thought it was going to be closing out my Wardens story it instead started opening up more questions. Also nearly everything it alluded to, a) didn't really get brought up again until DA:I, and really didn't go anywhere when it did. Flemeth didn't go anywhere? As as for the general topic, I'm not quite clear what you want Bio to do for a PC you're never playing again.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 6, 2017 2:29:10 GMT
Personally, my main problem with Shepard's death was more that they didn't just kill him, the put him in this Schroedinger's Protagonist state with the breath scene. IMO that's not a place to leave your protagonist in, at least not if you truly intend not to revisit them. I suppose this is another version of my above question; what's the problem with leaving that up to player interpretation? (Though I'm not sure I should grant that premise in the first place since interpreting the breath clip as leading to Shepard's imminent death is pretty strained; nobody would ever interpret such a scene that way in a film or TV show.)
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 2:37:13 GMT
Personally, my main problem with Shepard's death was more that they didn't just kill him, the put him in this Schroedinger's Protagonist state with the breath scene. IMO that's not a place to leave your protagonist in, at least not if you truly intend not to revisit them. I suppose this is another version of my above question; what's the problem with leaving that up to player interpretation? (Though I'm not sure I should grant that premise in the first place since interpreting the breath clip as leading to Shepard's imminent death is pretty strained; nobody would ever interpret such a scene that way in a film or TV show.) One of my interpretations is that it is a final sigh of satisfaction... a job Shep believes was well done. In that it only occurs if the player has accumulated the highest level of War Assets, I thought it could well be a "beating the game" scenario in a circumstance where the story was about a hero's ultimate sacrifice. Going to Tennyson's Ulysses as an example/foreshadow as cited in both ME1 and ME2... "Death closes all, but something 'err the end, some work of noble note may yet be done." To me, Shep dying while ensuring that his compatriots survive actually suits the story best... and at least the ending is still somewhat vague enough that I can imagine it that way. I'm OK with the crew still having hope that he's alive without him actually being alive.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 2:59:20 GMT
Personally, my main problem with Shepard's death was more that they didn't just kill him, the put him in this Schroedinger's Protagonist state with the breath scene. IMO that's not a place to leave your protagonist in, at least not if you truly intend not to revisit them. I suppose this is another version of my above question; what's the problem with leaving that up to player interpretation? (Though I'm not sure I should grant that premise in the first place since interpreting the breath clip as leading to Shepard's imminent death is pretty strained; nobody would ever interpret such a scene that way in a film or TV show.) If you leave it up to interpretation then you never give an answer. People want things answered. They do not function comfortably in those grey areas. That there are still debates on if Shepard lives in the breath scene and people who argue adamantly on both sides shows how frelled the whole thing is. You do not do that to any fan base unless you quite certainly want your fan base to implode. Sure, a fair portion of it will be okay with what you did, but another equally fair portion of it will not. They'll be pissed. Maybe dead. Maybe alive. No Comment is a poor way to end anything. If Shepard looks dead and the game makes it feel like he's dead then leaving it 'open' means nothing because enough evidence was given that makes it not look like he could be alive.
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Post by isaidlunch on Jul 6, 2017 3:01:36 GMT
Lol
Let's judge Jason Schreier on his previous history instead of some random other guy that was obviously full of shit
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Post by Cyan_Griffonclaw on Jul 6, 2017 3:08:23 GMT
Rumor mills are wrong all the time. That doesn't stop drama and hysteria though. or the maudlin or the misinformed throwing a fit...
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Post by cypherj on Jul 6, 2017 3:24:28 GMT
I'm not shocked. You had one character for three games. It may have been the Mass Effect universe, but it was Shepard's story. I don't know if you ever watched 24, but the main character of that show was Jack Bauer, and he was the show. They tried to bring back the show calling it 24 Legacy, and I think it's going to be canceled after one season. People probably didn't accept that show without Jack Bauer as the lead. Then when ME:A stumbled out of the gate, it just gave people an excuse to really go after it. If they were going to bring it back, it had to be better than good to grab all the OT players, and then they could strike while the iron was hot and release DLC and another game quickly, like they did with DA:O after release. But instead, they had to spend all their times fixing the vanilla game. I'm not sure the 24:Legacy example fits. The show started OK, but couldn't hold the audience. It wasn't all that good. And Fox doesn't believe that 24 requires Bauer to succeed, since they're already looking into a different way to continue. They're players that thought Andromeda wasn't all that good either, and I'm sure Bioware didn't think ME needed Shepard or the Milky Way, yet here we are talking about it. I think the example fits fine.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 3:39:17 GMT
I'm not sure the 24:Legacy example fits. The show started OK, but couldn't hold the audience. It wasn't all that good. And Fox doesn't believe that 24 requires Bauer to succeed, since they're already looking into a different way to continue. They're players that thought Andromeda wasn't all that good either, and I'm sure Bioware didn't think ME needed Shepard or the Milky Way, yet here we are talking about it. I think the example fits fine. BW didn't need Shepard for MEA to succeed. They just needed to NOT leave him in a dead/not dead state under a steaming pile of debris in the middle of a mostly frelled galaxy while his friends leave him behind. It's the worst thing you can do to any fandom and stupidly believe you'll survive the carnage to come without getting the snot beat out of you first.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 6, 2017 3:49:14 GMT
I suppose this is another version of my above question; what's the problem with leaving that up to player interpretation? (Though I'm not sure I should grant that premise in the first place since interpreting the breath clip as leading to Shepard's imminent death is pretty strained; nobody would ever interpret such a scene that way in a film or TV show.) If you leave it up to interpretation then you never give an answer. People want things answered. They do not function comfortably in those grey areas. That there are still debates on if Shepard lives in the breath scene and people who argue adamantly on both sides shows how frelled the whole thing is. You do not do that to any fan base unless you quite certainly want your fan base to implode. Sure, a fair portion of it will be okay with what you did, but another equally fair portion of it will not. They'll be pissed. Maybe dead. Maybe alive. No Comment is a poor way to end anything. If Shepard looks dead and the game makes it feel like he's dead then leaving it 'open' means nothing because enough evidence was given that makes it not look like he could be alive. OK if we change that to " most people"? Some of us don't panic when we hit ambiguity. As for the debate, is there a real debate? How many posters really don't interpret the scene correctly? My impression is that talking about Shepard dying is a rhetorical move rather than a substantive analysis, mostly because whenever I've questioned someone about his "Shepard died" interpretation he ends up admitting that he never really believed it was the correct interpretation; a fair percentage do prefer to deliberately interpret it as Shepard dying despite knowing better, but that isn't the same thing. ("Correct" meaning "what the scene was intended to convey," just to keep us out of a really dopey interpretation argument.) What does "feel like he's dead" even mean? Edit: I don't want to overstate our differences here. I'm certainly willing to stipulate that the main takeaway from ME3 is that Bio fans can't be trusted to do their own interpreting, which is why the EC spent so much time killing interpretations.
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Post by alanc9 on Jul 6, 2017 3:51:11 GMT
I'm not sure the 24:Legacy example fits. The show started OK, but couldn't hold the audience. It wasn't all that good. And Fox doesn't believe that 24 requires Bauer to succeed, since they're already looking into a different way to continue. They're players that thought Andromeda wasn't all that good either, and I'm sure Bioware didn't think ME needed Shepard or the Milky Way, yet here we are talking about it. I think the example fits fine. It fits fine as long as you're not trying to use it to prove that ME needs Shepard, sure. There are alternative hypotheses for the failures of both properties which have nothing to do with the absence of the original protagonists, and you don't have the data to prove which hypothesis fits for either property.
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Post by warrior on Jul 6, 2017 4:27:13 GMT
I suppose this is another version of my above question; what's the problem with leaving that up to player interpretation? (Though I'm not sure I should grant that premise in the first place since interpreting the breath clip as leading to Shepard's imminent death is pretty strained; nobody would ever interpret such a scene that way in a film or TV show.) If you leave it up to interpretation then you never give an answer. People want things answered. They do not function comfortably in those grey areas. That there are still debates on if Shepard lives in the breath scene and people who argue adamantly on both sides shows how frelled the whole thing is. You do not do that to any fan base unless you quite certainly want your fan base to implode. Sure, a fair portion of it will be okay with what you did, but another equally fair portion of it will not. They'll be pissed. Maybe dead. Maybe alive. No Comment is a poor way to end anything. If Shepard looks dead and the game makes it feel like he's dead then leaving it 'open' means nothing because enough evidence was given that makes it not look like he could be alive. I don't understand this need to "know" at all in an RPG like this. I like that it's up to interpretation because one of my characters can be alive, and one can be dead, and both are plausible based on the ending. The breath can be the last breath or a sign of life. Or kino's canon Shepard can be dead and mine can be alive. Just like in one game, Wrex is alive, and in another he's dead (etc etc etc). Or in another game someone chose the worst ending possible Synthesis and I chose Destroy. I get it in movies when it's unearned (sometimes an ambigious ending is earned and people are being crybabies). It's not like the end of Inception, when I'm like, Not just because it was pretentious but because it was rude. But in this case, it just doesn't make any sense to me why, in a series with so many different narrative configurations, these fans want a canonical answer from devs. The answer is: it's up to you, because it is an RPG.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 6, 2017 4:32:29 GMT
If you leave it up to interpretation then you never give an answer. People want things answered. They do not function comfortably in those grey areas. That there are still debates on if Shepard lives in the breath scene and people who argue adamantly on both sides shows how frelled the whole thing is. You do not do that to any fan base unless you quite certainly want your fan base to implode. Sure, a fair portion of it will be okay with what you did, but another equally fair portion of it will not. They'll be pissed. Maybe dead. Maybe alive. No Comment is a poor way to end anything. If Shepard looks dead and the game makes it feel like he's dead then leaving it 'open' means nothing because enough evidence was given that makes it not look like he could be alive. I don't understand this need to "know" at all in an RPG like this. I like that it's up to interpretation because one of my characters can be alive, and one can be dead, and both are plausible based on the ending. The breath can be the last breath or a sign of life. Or kino's canon Shepard can be dead and mine can be alive. Just like in one game, Wrex is alive, and in another he's dead (etc etc etc). Or in another game someone chose the worst ending possible Synthesis and I chose Destroy. I get it in movies when it's unearned (sometimes an ambigious ending is earned and people are being crybabies). It's not like the end of Inception, when I'm like, Not just because it was pretentious but because it was rude. But in this case, it just doesn't make any sense to me why, in a series with so many different narrative configurations, these fans want a canonical answer from devs. The answer is: it's up to you, because it is an RPG. My thoughts exactly... well said.
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