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Post by Melcara on Jul 9, 2017 19:48:02 GMT
Isn't something like this also a huge no-no in a debate? No hard feelings here, btw. This all started because I said that the OP needed to have higher standards if they think that Andromeda is well written, which you called a "sophomoric character attack", despite the fact that it wasn't meant as an "attack" on the OP's person at all. You made this personal for some reason, which I didn't mean to. Just so you know. You okay, m8?
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Cyberstrike
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Post by Cyberstrike on Jul 9, 2017 19:48:49 GMT
Any game where writing like this isn't immediately thrown in the trash, and worse yet, somehow makes it into final release...isn't good. What exactly is wrong with that scene? It's suikoden. He's just another worthless angry hardcore gamer troll talking out of his ass about things he doesn't know about and since he hasn't played the game. He's just pissed that people enjoy a game he hates and wants to do everything he can to destroy their joy and make their lives a miserable hell because he's a miserable joyless person.
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Post by Estaq99 on Jul 9, 2017 19:58:29 GMT
It's blatantly obvious since I played other Bioware games after I played MEA. I touched DA2 for the first time and was astonished that story, characters and dialogues were so much better than what MEA delivered. MEA is a bland shooter with some character interactions. It offers next to nothing in terms of character development, cringeworthy dialogue at times and a forgettable cast. While MEA slipped up quite a bit, this is some rather spectacular revisionism regarding DA2. DA2 was a game that did such a bad job of introducing characters and developing relationships that the main character loses his/her sibling before the player even knows who they are. The entire third act is people mutating into giant monsters and exploding with no explanation of wtf is going on and the less said about Sebastien and Anders, the better. At one point Hawke has to deal with the fact that a lunatic has decapitated his mother, sewed her head onto another corpse and reanimated the morbid thing, and his reaction is basically to shrug his shoulders. Don't get me wrong, DA2 wasn't a bad game but I'm struggling to understand how someone could genuinely point at this and say it was so much better than MEA. That's getting back into the whole 'MEA is a 4/10 game!' farce. I'm also of the opinion that DA2 was a much better game than MEA. Rushed as hell but better game as a whole (at least in the writing department, as it was in the character development, dialog and interactions between characters and general animation, to name a few). Replay-ability is another area where DA2 is a winner, at least when compared to MEA. I also found in Hawke a much better written and more developed pc than Ryder. Your description of DA2 third act and, specially, Hawke's reaction to his/her mother's death don't look accurate from what I recall playing the game. If we are going to talk about lame reactions to someone's parent death, I think Ryder definitively wins the prize for the most unimaginative, uninspiring, characterless, flat, uninteresting, lackluster, dull, drab, boring, dry, stale, colorless, anemic, lifeless reaction. I don't think MEA is a 4/10 game but I couldn't rate it higher than 6/10 as it stands right now, after some patches. That's for me a game which isn't bad but is forgettable. I rate DA2 with an 8/10 and 8.5/10 or higher when is played modded.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jul 9, 2017 20:01:05 GMT
Any game where writing like this isn't immediately thrown in the trash, and worse yet, somehow makes it into final release...isn't good. What exactly is wrong with that scene? What was wrong with that scene? Enough for Bioware to patch it.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 9, 2017 20:05:34 GMT
What exactly is wrong with that scene? What was wrong with that scene? Enough for Bioware to patch it. a small improvement that wasn't really needed but was helpful. Apparently.
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jaegerbane
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 9, 2017 20:05:46 GMT
Your description of DA2 third act and, specially, Hawke's reaction to his/her mother's death don't look accurate from what I recall playing the game. If we are going to talk about lame reactions to someone's parent death, I think Ryder definitively wins the price for the most unimaginative, uninspiring, characterless, flat, uninteresting, lackluster, dull, drab, boring, dry, stale, colorless, anemic, lifeless reaction. Then perhaps you need it to play it again - Orsino, Meredith, countless mages in the streets do literally that in the third act. It's never even explained what the hell Orsino was trying to accomplish. As for Ryder's reaction - I guess a lot of that is down to opinion. Personally I thought it was pretty good, but the point was more that there's actually a set of conversations around it and Ryder repeatedly references it throughout the game (indeed, there's a whole quest around it). Hawke essentially forgets it and never references it again, despite the fact that at best, it should have traumatised him. Ironically both the DA and ME franchises have repeatedly shown they can do this really well - DA2 is the odd one out here.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jul 9, 2017 20:06:52 GMT
What was wrong with that scene? Enough for Bioware to patch it. a small improvement that wasn't really needed but was helpful. Apparently. Bioware apparently thought that it was needed.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 9, 2017 20:09:41 GMT
a small improvement that wasn't really needed but was helpful. Apparently. Bioware apparently thought that it was needed. yes because for some reason people didn't understand the emotions Ryder was conveying. I didn't need the patch. I recognized the look on Ryders face. The patch only confirmed it.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jul 9, 2017 20:12:51 GMT
Bioware apparently thought that it was needed. yes because for some reason people didn't understand the emotions Ryder was conveying. I didn't need the patch. I recognized the look on Ryders face. The patch only confirmed it. Well that is your perspective/opinion. Bioware however looks at things from both a micro and macro perspective and from their perspective, they felt that the scene in question needed to be tweaked. Whether or not YOU thought that it needed to be tweaked is another story, but for Bioware at least, enough was wrong with the scene for them to put some focus on it and patch it.
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Post by griffith82 on Jul 9, 2017 20:15:11 GMT
a small improvement that wasn't really needed but was helpful. Apparently. Bioware apparently thought that it was needed. No they caved in to the whiners nothing more.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jul 9, 2017 20:16:50 GMT
Bioware apparently thought that it was needed. No they caved in to the whiners nothing more. Or perhaps they just did like any other company does and make changes based on the feedback of their product?
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Post by colfoley on Jul 9, 2017 20:20:06 GMT
Hell I've given that exact look on.my.job probably half a dozen times.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Jul 9, 2017 20:22:47 GMT
I think that "what's the Pathfinder's job" is taking the implication of poor storytelling/dialogue a little far. I mean, you know what your job is. The disembodied voice of Narrator Guy tells you almost as soon as you wake up from cryo. Your job is to be "responsible for exploring and assessing new worlds for outpost placement and settlement." That's pretty straightforward. There was a high number of golden worlds back when Andromeda was first surveyed (presumably because vaults but you didn't know that then). Seven potential settlement worlds were identified, so verifying those worlds is your job. You can't just plop a ship down and start barn-raising. Assuming everything had gone to plan and the Scourge didn't exist, presumably you'd be studying flora and fauna, making sure animals and [insert species] could co-exist, and find out what was edible and drinkable. In addition to just scouting the planet and finding a good place to start settling. The reason that the outposts have tried and failed and that there is a settlement already on Kadara and that contact was already made with the angara is not because the Nexus didn't need the Pathfinder. It's because the Nexus was almost torn to pieces when it arrived in Andromeda and they needed somewhere, anywhere, to settle because they were running out of resources. So they went out in shuttles and without a Pathfinder. And then the uprising and yadda yadda yadda. This is all pretty clearly laid out. Which is why there should have been Pathfinders on the Nexus. It made no sense. If they were supposed to be the Pathfinders, the scouts, they should have been on the first ship to arrive in Andromeda. Survey the situation, the planets, and make sure they're habitable when the arks arrive. Exactly what were the people on the Nexus supposed to do while waiting months and months for Arks to arrive with Pathfinders? Pathfinders should have been first in, first boots on the ground. Just like each Ark should have been mixed races in case one didn't make it. That way all races would be guaranteed to be represented in Andromeda. But I won't even go into the whole structure of the Initiative itself, and how it didn't make any sense.
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Post by abaris on Jul 9, 2017 20:23:12 GMT
No they caved in to the whiners nothing more. Newsflash. Whiners need power to sway company decisions. A few whiners isn't enough for them to cave. Seeing as they have access to market research and we have not, the above is a ridiculous statement. And I'm saying that as someone who thinks this game has bigger problems than this particular scene.
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Post by majesticjazz on Jul 9, 2017 20:23:29 GMT
Hell I've given that exact look on.my.job probably half a dozen times. After mentioning that your father just died?
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Monica21
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 9, 2017 20:29:51 GMT
Which is why there should have been Pathfinders on the Nexus. It made no sense. If they were supposed to be the Pathfinders, the scouts, they should have been on the first ship to arrive in Andromeda. Survey the situation, the planets, and make sure they're habitable when the arks arrive. Exactly what were the people on the Nexus supposed to do while waiting months and months for Arks to arrive with Pathfinders? Pathfinders should have been first in, first boots on the ground. Just like each Ark should have been mixed races in case one didn't make it. That way all races would be guaranteed to be represented in Andromeda. But I won't even go into the whole structure of the Initiative itself, and how it didn't make any sense. Well, the Pathfinders got there late. The Nexus was supposed to arrive in Andromeda, get set up and be support for the arriving arks. The Nexus and its leadership was intended to be purely oversight, not crisis management and definitely not exploration. I understand your point, but that's not how the story was set up.
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Post by Estaq99 on Jul 9, 2017 20:30:50 GMT
Your description of DA2 third act and, specially, Hawke's reaction to his/her mother's death don't look accurate from what I recall playing the game. If we are going to talk about lame reactions to someone's parent death, I think Ryder definitively wins the price for the most unimaginative, uninspiring, characterless, flat, uninteresting, lackluster, dull, drab, boring, dry, stale, colorless, anemic, lifeless reaction. Then perhaps you need it to play it again - Orsino, Meredith, countless mages in the streets do literally that in the third act. It's never even explained what the hell Orsino was trying to accomplish. As for Ryder's reaction - I guess a lot of that is down to opinion. Personally I thought it was pretty good, but the point was more that there's actually a set of conversations around it and Ryder repeatedly references it throughout the game (indeed, there's a whole quest around it). Hawke essentially forgets it and never references it again, despite the fact that at best, it should have traumatised him. Ironically both the DA and ME franchises have repeatedly shown they can do this really well - DA2 is the odd one out here. I have about 10 DA2 play-through and I perfectly remember that Hawke has a lot of dialog about his/her mother's death with several characters, including the possibility to alter his/her friendship with Aveline depending on the dialog choices. I don't remember Meredith turning into an abomination at any point in the game. I found that mages turning into abominations were, in most cases, well justified when cornered. The exception could be Orsino and that's probably the reason in my modded version of the game, he doesn't turn into that fatty Harvester. I still think that Ryder reaction to his/her father's death was the lamest of all EAwere games, so far. But hey, as you said "Personally I thought", it's a matter of opinion. I found MEA to be a mediocre game and inferior to DA2 as whole but it's just my personal opinion, nothing more, nothing less. We are going to have to agree to desagree.
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Monica21
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 9, 2017 20:32:42 GMT
I don't remember Meredith turning into an abomination at any point in the game. Uh, Meredith can't control her fancy red lyrium sword (that is coincidentally making her insane) and ends up turning into a giant red lyrium statue.
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Post by abaris on Jul 9, 2017 20:34:21 GMT
I have about 10 DA2 play-through and I perfectly remember that Hawke has a lot of dialog about his/her mother's death with several characters, including the possibility to alter his/her friendship with Aveline depending on the dialog choices. I don't remember Meredith turning into an abomination at any point in the game. She was. At the very end of the game. Well, sort of, since we learn what happened to her before. The only thing not making much sense is Orsino. Espepcially when you choose to take the mage's side.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Jul 9, 2017 20:39:43 GMT
Bioware apparently thought that it was needed. yes because for some reason people didn't understand the emotions Ryder was conveying. I didn't need the patch. I recognized the look on Ryders face. The patch only confirmed it. Colfoley, you're a good guy. Seriously. But you're reaching here. Emotions are easy to catch by any human. If you can know when a person is not doing well emotionally by a simple smile, you can recognize a lot of stuff. MEA has a track of bad animations. This had a reason. Saying people didn't understand sounds like the same horde of fanboys stating people couldn't understand BvS that's why it got received the way it did. That's just not true.
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Post by Estaq99 on Jul 9, 2017 20:42:17 GMT
I have about 10 DA2 play-through and I perfectly remember that Hawke has a lot of dialog about his/her mother's death with several characters, including the possibility to alter his/her friendship with Aveline depending on the dialog choices. I don't remember Meredith turning into an abomination at any point in the game. She was. At the very end of the game. Well, sort of, since we learn what happened to her before. The only thing not making much sense is Orsino. Espepcially when you choose to take the mage's side. I still don't think she really turned into an abomination. Instead, I could say she got some (a bit comical) Japanese cartoon style superpowers given by the red lyrium. Totally agree on Orsino WTF nonsensical transformation. That's why I modded that scene.
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Post by colfoley on Jul 9, 2017 20:45:20 GMT
yes because for some reason people didn't understand the emotions Ryder was conveying. I didn't need the patch. I recognized the look on Ryders face. The patch only confirmed it. Colfoley, you're a good guy. Seriously. But you're reaching here. Emotions are easy to catch by any human. If you can know when a person is not doing well emotionally by a simple smile, you can recognize a lot of stuff. MEA has a track of bad animations. This had a reason. Saying people didn't understand sounds like the same horde of fanboys stating people couldn't understand BvS that's why it got received the way it did. That's just not true. could that scene used an improvement?.yes. But i understood the emotion the scene was trying to convey...easily. The same emotion that was conveyed in the improved scene was conveyed by the original. Sadness loss and a want to not be reminded of a traumatic event and move on.
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Post by jaegerbane on Jul 9, 2017 20:50:31 GMT
Which is why there should have been Pathfinders on the Nexus. It made no sense. If they were supposed to be the Pathfinders, the scouts, they should have been on the first ship to arrive in Andromeda. Survey the situation, the planets, and make sure they're habitable when the arks arrive. Exactly what were the people on the Nexus supposed to do while waiting months and months for Arks to arrive with Pathfinders? Pathfinders should have been first in, first boots on the ground. Just like each Ark should have been mixed races in case one didn't make it. That way all races would be guaranteed to be represented in Andromeda. But I won't even go into the whole structure of the Initiative itself, and how it didn't make any sense. I'm not sure this is actually a case of bad writing. There's a common theme running through the Initiative that common sense and pragmatism took a back seat to ideology and optimism whenever they were in conflict. The basic idea of distributing the Initiative's resources between the Arks and Nexus makes complete sense, as technically the Nexus would only need one Ark to successfully make the journey as a single Pathfinder could theoretically do the job of all four. The whole point was that if worst came to the worst, the Arks could independently colonise Heleus (Alec specifically mentions the protocol to follow if the Nexus can't be contacted). There were plenty of oddball choices though. The fact that the Arks weren't armed at all (though they appear to have a fighter complement), that the AI didn't actually have a standing military (which seems insane for expedition of this scale and expense), that the Nexus was half-built at launch (fair enough to save on costs but expecting to finish construction in a completely unexplored part of space sounds crazy)... on the face of it they all seem mad, but once you factor in that a large chunk of the AI is based around faith and hope (regardless of how risky or sensible it is), it kind of makes sense.
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Post by warrior on Jul 9, 2017 20:54:06 GMT
Your description of DA2 third act and, specially, Hawke's reaction to his/her mother's death don't look accurate from what I recall playing the game. If we are going to talk about lame reactions to someone's parent death, I think Ryder definitively wins the price for the most unimaginative, uninspiring, characterless, flat, uninteresting, lackluster, dull, drab, boring, dry, stale, colorless, anemic, lifeless reaction. Then perhaps you need it to play it again - Orsino, Meredith, countless mages in the streets do literally that in the third act. It's never even explained what the hell Orsino was trying to accomplish. As for Ryder's reaction - I guess a lot of that is down to opinion. Personally I thought it was pretty good, but the point was more that there's actually a set of conversations around it and Ryder repeatedly references it throughout the game (indeed, there's a whole quest around it). Hawke essentially forgets it and never references it again, despite the fact that at best, it should have traumatised him. Ironically both the DA and ME franchises have repeatedly shown they can do this really well - DA2 is the odd one out here. It's perfectly okay for Ryder to not be very emotional about the death since the game has established that he wasn't a great/present father and a big understory to the family quest is Ryder learning that he actually gave a shit about his kids. I don't remember DA2 well enough to comment on that... in fact I have forgotten everything and my replay (now with a big spoiler, lol) will be like playing a totally new game.
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Post by Monica21 on Jul 9, 2017 21:02:12 GMT
I'm not sure this is actually a case of bad writing. There's a common theme running through the Initiative that common sense and pragmatism took a back seat to ideology and optimism whenever they were in conflict. The basic idea of distributing the Initiative's resources between the Arks and Nexus makes complete sense, as technically the Nexus would only need one Ark to successfully make the journey as a single Pathfinder could theoretically do the job of all four. The whole point was that if worst came to the worst, the Arks could independently colonise Heleus (Alec specifically mentions the protocol to follow if the Nexus can't be contacted). There were plenty of oddball choices though. The fact that the Arks weren't armed at all (though they appear to have a fighter complement), that the AI didn't actually have a standing military (which seems insane for expedition of this scale and expense), that the Nexus was half-built at launch (fair enough to save on costs but expecting to finish construction in a completely unexplored part of space sounds crazy)... on the face of it they all seem mad, but once you factor in that a large chunk of the AI is based around faith and hope (regardless of how risky or sensible it is), it kind of makes sense. I don't think this is noted anywhere except the books, but the Nexus was unfinished so that it could make the journey. Basically, the arms folded up for the trip and then folded back out on arrival and theoretically it could have been finished while the arks were docked. I understand that premise of it, even if it didn't work that way.
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