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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 17:51:25 GMT
I lol'd. Ok, non travelled one, tell us more of how you acquired such formidable knowledge on this subject? As it surely was not experiential, it must have been written in a book by a person. That person was ugly. There are many cultures where beauty is defined very differently. Several pages back someone posted images of an African culture where they elongate their skull and it is considered beautiful. It does not have to be as exotic and remote as that. Was once reading a memoir of an archeologist who went to work in a rural setting with his team of urbanized students. He was housed by a village guy who specifically told him, to tell his boys to keep their mouth shut not to tease his wife, she such a plain Jane. Well, the said plain Jane made the guy's jaw drop, she was a picture perfect of an elegant dark-haired, soulful-eyed, slender beauty. But you see, most women in those parts were fair of skin and hair, solid build, bright eyed, and that's what made them beautiful.
My mom commented a few times on the old movies about the actresses how they looked so beautiful to the older generation, because they were full-bodied, and sturdy, while everyone was starved-thin for the first few decades of the century due to the endless hardships of the wars and turmoil.
In our age of accessible imagery and information, and travel, we actually have the ability to see how differently the humans look and decide for ourselves, if we define the beauty to what is locally prevalent, or crave something that is as different from what we are ourselves and what is all around us. If you live in a large urban center that has a melting pot environment, you might be even more inclined to talk of a "universal beauty", but tbh, I saw a guy who advocated "put beautiful women back in the videogames" and specifically and openly said Josephine was not because she was not Caucasian. He specifically advocated a blonde blue-eyed "universal" beauty.
One thing I am rather sure of is that at least in Andromeda, Bioware did not go out of its way to make faces uglier. The intention was clearly to create a variety of faces that will look realistic but beautified and the bodies are all pretty much top-notch. When the game was released, compared to the later updates, it was obvious that the characters were simply not checked over enough times to apply filters similar to the airbrushing in a magazine picture. The capability was there and was patched in. It's not that they've "uglified", it's that they did not airbrush. It was particularly obvious when you looked at the skin textures as mo-caped. They were exaggeratedly pitted and porous, due to the light or too sensitive photography or what not. Something that happens on a candid black and white picture for example.
The clear cases of uglifying I can think of are making Iron Bull obese and one-eyed, adding terrible facial hair to the two males in Inquisition, terrifyingly pale skin on Cullen and Solas, and Sera's almost deformed facial features. In Inquisition, I could create a character in CC that looked better than the romantic companions of that species. For example, I can churn out a Qunari that looks like a maiden's dream from the Inquistion's CC, but I am offered a fat one-eyed old dude as a romantic choice because it's interesting for the character's author. There is an obvious discrepancy between a gorgeous Qunari PC and the Iron Bull & it is deliberate.
In Andromeda, what I can create in the CC is pretty much what I get looking at the human characters, in other words, I do not see any evidence of trying to make appearance worse for the romantic companions specifically. In fact, for a few months, a LOT of efforts were expanded at making everyone look better. Inquisition never got that sort of polish, and revisions to improve the looks of the crew.
In other words, if anything, Andromeda indicates that BioWARE tries to find a way to create a really good-looking characters, both their own and the ones you can create.
And, yeah, they still can't do long hair, and I doubt it is for the lack of trying.
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Post by warrior on Aug 11, 2017 18:02:03 GMT
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Post by vonuber on Aug 11, 2017 18:11:21 GMT
Cassandra is not ugly. She is masculine. Not what the AVERAGE (Jesus, how many times do I have to stress average, not all) hetero male gamer finds attractive. How do you know what the average hetero male gamer finds attractive?
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Post by heathenoxman on Aug 11, 2017 18:19:12 GMT
"Never blame malice for what can be attributed to ignorance/incompetent."
I think BW just doesn't have a great handle on translating female faces via Frostbite. Male faces are naturally "gruffer:" therefore, less troublesome to render.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 18:48:50 GMT
Cassandra is not ugly. She is masculine. Not what the AVERAGE (Jesus, how many times do I have to stress average, not all) hetero male gamer finds attractive. Even if we accept your statement that average heterosexual males do not find Warrior woman type attractive, you are surrounded by: Josephine, her of long shiny hair, eyes of a gaselle, sweet demeanour and twenty inch waistline emphasized by an ultra-feminine outfit Leliana, a pale cold beauty with hair as red as spun copper and sharp wit Vivienne, her of a smouldering gaze and sensual lips that is dressed in dreamy outfits Morrigan, also long-haired, amber eyed and even has that smokey make-up thing going, and she is switching from a dress to half-naked by the gasebo for your visual delights. you even have a couple of cute loli dwarven girlies. About the only unattractive female is Sera..... so, is an average heterosexual male really that short on the variety of the eye-candy?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 19:29:13 GMT
"Never blame malice for what can be attributed to ignorance/incompetent." I think BW just doesn't have a great handle on translating female faces via Frostbite. Male faces are naturally "gruffer:" therefore, less troublesome to render. I'm going to suggest this is actually a problem with frostbite itself. Here's some evidence: I've found a random woman footballer. To be precise, Sara Däbritz, a German international: I think we can agree that by whatever standard you judge, she's pretty good. Now, here's what she looks like in FIFA 17, which uses the same Frostbite engine as Bioware: To say it doesn't really do her justice, would not be an unfair assessment. Despite that this is, to my eyes, far worse than the difference between Sara Ryder and her face model, I don't recall anyone claiming that SJWs had infiltrated EA Sports and made all the women ugly. So how does one explain, when they've used exactly the same tech, and FIFA has a much higher budget, and FIFA is aimed much more squarely at the "average hetero male gamer" than Andromeda, the fact that Bioware has got all the flak?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2017 19:32:00 GMT
/Thread?
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Post by warrior on Aug 11, 2017 20:01:34 GMT
"Never blame malice for what can be attributed to ignorance/incompetent." I think BW just doesn't have a great handle on translating female faces via Frostbite. Male faces are naturally "gruffer:" therefore, less troublesome to render. I'm going to suggest this is actually a problem with frostbite itself. Here's some evidence: I've found a random woman footballer. To be precise, Sara Däbritz, a German international: I think we can agree that by whatever standard you judge, she's pretty good. Now, here's what she looks like in FIFA 17, which uses the same Frostbite engine as Bioware: To say it doesn't really do her justice, would not be an unfair assessment. Despite that this is, to my eyes, far worse than the difference between Sara Ryder and her face model, I don't recall anyone claiming that SJWs had infiltrated EA Sports and made all the women ugly. So how does one explain, when they've used exactly the same tech, and FIFA has a much higher budget, and FIFA is aimed much more squarely at the "average hetero male gamer" than Andromeda, the fact that Bioware has got all the flak? OR MAYBE THE SJWs HAVE INFILTRATED ALL OF EA !!!! EVEN FIFA SOON EVERY MADDEN TEAM WILL BE COMPRISED ENTIRELY OF BLACK TRANS LESBIANS WE ARE CODE RED PEOPLE
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Post by bshep on Aug 11, 2017 20:52:57 GMT
"Never blame malice for what can be attributed to ignorance/incompetent." I think BW just doesn't have a great handle on translating female faces via Frostbite. Male faces are naturally "gruffer:" therefore, less troublesome to render. I'm going to suggest this is actually a problem with frostbite itself. Here's some evidence: I've found a random woman footballer. To be precise, Sara Däbritz, a German international: I think we can agree that by whatever standard you judge, she's pretty good. Now, here's what she looks like in FIFA 17, which uses the same Frostbite engine as Bioware: To say it doesn't really do her justice, would not be an unfair assessment. Despite that this is, to my eyes, far worse than the difference between Sara Ryder and her face model, I don't recall anyone claiming that SJWs had infiltrated EA Sports and made all the women ugly. So how does one explain, when they've used exactly the same tech, and FIFA has a much higher budget, and FIFA is aimed much more squarely at the "average hetero male gamer" than Andromeda, the fact that Bioware has got all the flak?Easy: Trolls love to shit on bioware, maybe because the company don't shy away from representing diverse sexuality on their games.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 11, 2017 21:24:18 GMT
That is a good question. Where is all the outrage with the "uglyfication" for FIFA women?
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 11, 2017 21:58:48 GMT
That is a good question. Where is all the outrage with the "uglyfication" for FIFA women? Men aren't looking for romance in sports games. ME is an RPG with romance options. It's a major (not the only) selling point. Expectations were high.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 11, 2017 22:02:18 GMT
Cassandra is not ugly. She is masculine. Not what the AVERAGE (Jesus, how many times do I have to stress average, not all) hetero male gamer finds attractive. Even if we accept your statement that average heterosexual males do not find Warrior woman type attractive, you are surrounded by: Josephine, her of long shiny hair, eyes of a gaselle, sweet demeanour and twenty inch waistline emphasized by an ultra-feminine outfit Leliana, a pale cold beauty with hair as red as spun copper and sharp wit Vivienne, her of a smouldering gaze and sensual lips that is dressed in dreamy outfits Morrigan, also long-haired, amber eyed and even has that smokey make-up thing going, and she is switching from a dress to half-naked by the gasebo for your visual delights. you even have a couple of cute loli dwarven girlies. About the only unattractive female is Sera..... so, is an average heterosexual male really that short on the variety of the eye-candy? Compared to previous Bioware games, the women in DAI were roughened a bit, toughened up to make them less soft, feminine and conventionally beautiful, to conform to Bioware's anti-lookism stance. All of them. (Christ, again, for the AVERAGE man, certainly not every man.)
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Post by heathenoxman on Aug 11, 2017 23:30:43 GMT
"Never blame malice for what can be attributed to ignorance/incompetent." I think BW just doesn't have a great handle on translating female faces via Frostbite. Male faces are naturally "gruffer:" therefore, less troublesome to render. I'm going to suggest this is actually a problem with frostbite itself. Here's some evidence: I've found a random woman footballer. To be precise, Sara Däbritz, a German international: I think we can agree that by whatever standard you judge, she's pretty good. Now, here's what she looks like in FIFA 17, which uses the same Frostbite engine as Bioware: To say it doesn't really do her justice, would not be an unfair assessment. Despite that this is, to my eyes, far worse than the difference between Sara Ryder and her face model, I don't recall anyone claiming that SJWs had infiltrated EA Sports and made all the women ugly. So how does one explain, when they've used exactly the same tech, and FIFA has a much higher budget, and FIFA is aimed much more squarely at the "average hetero male gamer" than Andromeda, the fact that Bioware has got all the flak? Holy shit!!! Theory confirmed.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 11, 2017 23:33:21 GMT
Cassandra is not ugly. She is masculine. Not what the AVERAGE (Jesus, how many times do I have to stress average, not all) hetero male gamer finds attractive. Lemme guess..., too masculine? Cassandra is tough, scarred, and has short hair, but still quite feminine in appearance. She even confesses to liking "girlie" things like smutty literature and proper courting. I mean, what do you think the "average" hetero male gamer find attractive? A quadruple-D bust, eyes that take up half her face, and wearing a catsuit two sizes too small?
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 11, 2017 23:37:54 GMT
Cassandra is not ugly. She is masculine. Not what the AVERAGE (Jesus, how many times do I have to stress average, not all) hetero male gamer finds attractive. Lemme guess..., too masculine? Cassandra is tough, scarred, and has short hair, but still quite feminine in appearance. She even confesses to liking "girlie" things like smutty literature and proper courting. I mean, what do you think the "average" hetero male gamer find attractive? A quadruple-D bust, eyes that take up half her face, and wearing a catsuit two sizes too small? Miranda and Isabela apparently. I'd rather have a character that fits in the universe as opposed so someone who is designed (Miranda literally in her case) to be "sexy".
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 11, 2017 23:40:08 GMT
Cassandra is not ugly. She is masculine. Not what the AVERAGE (Jesus, how many times do I have to stress average, not all) hetero male gamer finds attractive. Lemme guess..., too masculine? Cassandra is tough, scarred, and has short hair, but still quite feminine in appearance. She even confesses to liking "girlie" things like smutty literature and proper courting. I mean, what do you think the "average" hetero male gamer find attractive? A quadruple-D bust, eyes that take up half her face, and wearing a catsuit two sizes too small? You don't have to look very far to find what the average guy finds attractive. Google Image: Hollywood Female Actor. None of the images that come up look like DAI women. My point is that this is important because Bioware makes romance RPGs. If they aren't satisfying the AVERAGE male, they're just asking for trouble.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 11, 2017 23:59:09 GMT
Lemme guess..., too masculine? Cassandra is tough, scarred, and has short hair, but still quite feminine in appearance. She even confesses to liking "girlie" things like smutty literature and proper courting. I mean, what do you think the "average" hetero male gamer find attractive? A quadruple-D bust, eyes that take up half her face, and wearing a catsuit two sizes too small? You don't have to look very far to find what the average guy finds attractive. Google Image: Hollywood Female Actor. None of the images that come up look like DAI women. My point is that this is important because Bioware makes romance RPGs. If they aren't satisfying the AVERAGE male, they're just asking for trouble. If the standard of beauty is "Hollywood movie star" your standards are impossibly high. I mean, if you look at Cassandra's proportions, she's pretty hot under that armor. I'd like to think that most "average males" don't think if the woman in question isn't Ms Fanservice, they're Coyote Ugly. But what do I know, I always thought MarryAnn was hotter than Ginger anyway...
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Post by bshep on Aug 12, 2017 0:01:08 GMT
Cassandra is not ugly. She is masculine. Not what the AVERAGE (Jesus, how many times do I have to stress average, not all) hetero male gamer finds attractive. Lemme guess..., too masculine? Cassandra is tough, scarred, and has short hair, but still quite feminine in appearance. She even confesses to liking "girlie" things like smutty literature and proper courting. I mean, what do you think the "average" hetero male gamer find attractive? A quadruple-D bust, eyes that take up half her face, and wearing a catsuit two sizes too small?I think it's very clear now ( after more than 20 pages in this thread) that he is mixing his own ideal of what the "average" hetero male gamer wants with this misguided notion of universal ideal.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 12, 2017 0:16:04 GMT
You don't have to look very far to find what the average guy finds attractive. Google Image: Hollywood Female Actor. None of the images that come up look like DAI women. My point is that this is important because Bioware makes romance RPGs. If they aren't satisfying the AVERAGE male, they're just asking for trouble. If the standard of beauty is "Hollywood movie star" your standards are impossibly high. I mean, if you look at Cassandra's proportions, she's pretty hot under that armor. I'd like to think that most "average males" don't think if the woman in question isn't Ms Fanservice, they're Coyote Ugly. But what do I know, I always thought MarryAnn was hotter than Ginger anyway... Fair enough. I wish I could share your optimism. Guys will want what they want. A lot of them are pigs and will hate on characters like Sera merely for existing. Others, like me, will have no problem with them, but will also ask for a few Scarlett Johanssons.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 12, 2017 0:23:22 GMT
If the standard of beauty is "Hollywood movie star" your standards are impossibly high. I mean, if you look at Cassandra's proportions, she's pretty hot under that armor. I'd like to think that most "average males" don't think if the woman in question isn't Ms Fanservice, they're Coyote Ugly. But what do I know, I always thought MaryAnn was hotter than Ginger anyway... Fair enough. I wish I could share your optimism. Guys will want what they want. A lot of them are pigs and will hate on characters like Sera merely for existing. Others, like me, will have no problem with them, but will also ask for a few Scarlett Johanssons. Well, yeah. But she's so far out of any gamer's league it's not even funny. But there's also many many MANY layers between Black Widow and Lord Voldemort. As long as they keep potential love interests reasonably attractive. And as the Ashley Williams history shows, idiots will call female characters ugly even after the (already attractive) character gets a Mass Effect Barbie makeover.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Aug 12, 2017 0:27:42 GMT
If the standard of beauty is "Hollywood movie star" your standards are impossibly high. I mean, if you look at Cassandra's proportions, she's pretty hot under that armor. I'd like to think that most "average males" don't think if the woman in question isn't Ms Fanservice, they're Coyote Ugly. But what do I know, I always thought MarryAnn was hotter than Ginger anyway... Fair enough. I wish I could share your optimism. Guys will want what they want. A lot of them are pigs and will hate on characters like Sera merely for existing. Others, like me, will have no problem with them, but will also ask for a few Scarlett Johanssons. Have you ever considered what women may want out of their characters instead of just men? Its not just men or kids/teens that play video games nowadays. In fact, 52% are female and that number is from 2014. I bet that number has risen since then.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 12, 2017 0:35:05 GMT
Fair enough. I wish I could share your optimism. Guys will want what they want. A lot of them are pigs and will hate on characters like Sera merely for existing. Others, like me, will have no problem with them, but will also ask for a few Scarlett Johanssons. Have you ever considered what women may want out of their characters instead of just men? Its not just men or kids/teens that play video games nowadays. In fact, 52% are female and that number is from 2014. I bet that number has risen since then.Sure I have. My daughter is gaga over Fenris. I'm a Titillation Equal Opportunist.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2017 1:11:25 GMT
I'm going to suggest this is actually a problem with frostbite itself. Here's some evidence: I've found a random woman footballer. To be precise, Sara Däbritz, a German international: I think we can agree that by whatever standard you judge, she's pretty good. Now, here's what she looks like in FIFA 17, which uses the same Frostbite engine as Bioware: To say it doesn't really do her justice, would not be an unfair assessment. Despite that this is, to my eyes, far worse than the difference between Sara Ryder and her face model, I don't recall anyone claiming that SJWs had infiltrated EA Sports and made all the women ugly. So how does one explain, when they've used exactly the same tech, and FIFA has a much higher budget, and FIFA is aimed much more squarely at the "average hetero male gamer" than Andromeda, the fact that Bioware has got all the flak? Holy shit!!! Theory confirmed. Yeah, your post got me thinking about how other Frostbite games compare to Bioware's attempts. Not well, I think. I'm not a fan of the move to Frostbite in the slightest. I'd say it's more than a coincidence that these complaints about Bioware's women have really sprung up around DAI and MEA. To me this proves there's no "agenda" at Bioware, just a shitty engine that can't handle female faces as well as male ones. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out when SWBF2 releases...
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Sept 24, 2024 7:28:04 GMT
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Vall
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vall
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Vall on Aug 12, 2017 1:32:56 GMT
Holy shit!!! Theory confirmed. Yeah, your post got me thinking about how other Frostbite games compare to Bioware's attempts. Not well, I think. I'm not a fan of the move to Frostbite in the slightest. I'd say it's more than a coincidence that these complaints about Bioware's women have really sprung up around DAI and MEA. To me this proves there's no "agenda" at Bioware, just a shitty engine that can't handle female faces as well as male ones. It'll be interesting to see how it turns out when SWBF2 releases... That might be true for randomly encountered NPCs but... I wouldn't subscribe to this theory 100% though, because both Ryder and Inquisitor are my favorite PCs as far as looks go. (Not to mention I believe that MEA and DAI have some of the best looking women Bioware ever made, Suvi, Vetra, Cass, DAI Leliana and Harding are just )
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Party like it's 2023!
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kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Aug 12, 2017 1:37:15 GMT
Smells like a dead elephant in here. RIP Snuffly. You were too good for this world.
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