bshep
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We destroy them or they destroy us.
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
Origin: MasterDassJennir
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Post by bshep on Aug 4, 2017 6:14:23 GMT
Ah, OK. I forget.... was the problem with Sera supposed to be that she was unattractive, or that she was attractive and straight male Inquisitors couldn't get with her? I have trouble keeping the nonsense straight. It's not nonsensical to ask for attractive love interests in a fantasy game that is not meant to reflect reality. When you read a book, do you imagine the characters as ugly as possible to make a political statement? Why aren't all those women on Game of Thrones less attractive? The only problem here is that you and some of the game designers seem to think making a political statement is more important than making a fantasy story most people want to see. I'm happy the game represents different sexualities and lifestyles. But I'm not thrilled about logging into my fantasy world and seeing the same ugly faces I see every day at work. That's not why I, or anyone else plays games like these. But that's a point most people like you who want to leap at political buzz phrases seem to ignore. I suppose in your mind if someone is asking for attractive characters, it means he's a gay hating, misogynist, republican who lives in his mom's basement in the deep south of Texas... You do realize that all this is YOUR SUBJECTIVE NOTION OF BEAUTY right? Also please do not try to back your own post by saying that you speak by anyone else because you sure do not. I for instance do find Sera pretty, even if she is kind of annoying.
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Post by isaidlunch on Aug 4, 2017 6:47:54 GMT
Josephine was likely intended as the "conventionally attractive" woman, but it seems people don't like her for... reasons.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 4, 2017 6:49:19 GMT
I like Josephine, and she is my canon romance. But my problem with her was that she was not a companion, and her romance had less content than the others.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 4, 2017 6:50:32 GMT
It's not nonsensical to ask for attractive love interests in a fantasy game that is not meant to reflect reality. When you read a book, do you imagine the characters as ugly as possible to make a political statement? Why aren't all those women on Game of Thrones less attractive? The only problem here is that you and some of the game designers seem to think making a political statement is more important than making a fantasy story most people want to see. I'm happy the game represents different sexualities and lifestyles. But I'm not thrilled about logging into my fantasy world and seeing the same ugly faces I see every day at work. That's not why I, or anyone else plays games like these. But that's a point most people like you who want to leap at political buzz phrases seem to ignore. I suppose in your mind if someone is asking for attractive characters, it means he's a gay hating, misogynist, republican who lives in his mom's basement in the deep south of Texas... You do realize that all this is YOUR SUBJECTIVE NOTION OF BEAUTY right? Also please do not try to back your own post by saying that you speak by anyone else because you sure do not. I for instance do find Sera pretty, even if she is kind of annoying. There's always one weirdo with an ugly fetish... usually due to lack of self-esteem. (Before this offends someone, it's mostly a sarcastic comment) But there are conventional standards for beauty. You can't argue with that. Turn on a TV or watch a movie if you doubt it.
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Post by shechinah on Aug 4, 2017 10:34:17 GMT
Trust me.. if there was a mod that could fix Sera's appearance, I would have used it a looooong time ago. She is the least attractive character to ever grace a BioWare game... and that include Oghren and Wrex. While I dislike the use of "fix" in this context since Sera's appearance is not bugged in any way but you can find mods that change her canon appearance to be more of the conventional beauty kind. Personally, I rather like Sera's canonical character design since it fits her character and background. She's not the type to care about appearance and how much fine hairdressing common folk have available is limited so her hair looking like she cut it herself makes a lot of sense.
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Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger
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At sunrise there is the sunset.
To find the secrets of the universe: Think in terms of energy, frequency & VIBRATION -Nikola Tesla
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Shattered Steel, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Origin: NO. NEVER. AGAIN.
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Post by Atemporal Vanguardian-Debugger on Aug 4, 2017 10:49:21 GMT
You do realize that all this is YOUR SUBJECTIVE NOTION OF BEAUTY right? Also please do not try to back your own post by saying that you speak by anyone else because you sure do not. I for instance do find Sera pretty, even if she is kind of annoying. There's always one weirdo with an ugly fetish... usually due to lack of self-esteem. (Before this offends someone, it's mostly a sarcastic comment) But there are conventional standards for beauty. You can't argue with that. Turn on a TV or watch a movie if you doubt it. Actually I can. This would only be true if ALL movies and tv followed this trait. Which unless you have seen every movie and tv show made in every country in the world you can not tell me that they are the same. Beauty as you term it -is a subjective classification system developed to get people to believe along certain criteria -your standard. A standard you believe that seems to come from Hollywood... I feel sorry for you if you believe such a horrid belief system. For even in Hollywood this mantra "standard for beauty" does not hold water. There are movies and even TV where this is not the case. Especially in other countries where being thin is still considered shameful and being overweight is still considered pleasant. In short there is no such thing as a "standard of beauty". For it depends on when, where, who and how you grow up as well as what internally defines true beauty for you personally. Something obliviously different from where I grew up where appearance was not important at all when compared to intellect and gaining knowledge.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 4, 2017 11:06:37 GMT
Honestly, this is why more people don't bother voicing their opinions anymore. Arguing that certain standards for beauty exist in the world is stupid because every already knows it's true.
But that doesn't stop some loud mouth individuals from arguing agaisnt it and trying to demonizing people for thinking it. This is why the term SJW gets thrown around an insult now.
Yes, attractiveness is subjective to some degree. But its not to the degree you are trying to make it out to be. If you are ugly there's not someone out there who finds you beautiful. There are lines for beauty and ugliness that are universal. If you put a model from one country in another one, chances are that everyone will still find her beautiful. And if you take a fat, cropped hair American to Asia, everyone's going to still agree that she's ugly.
Sorry, I know that's to politically correct, but it is a fact. So why do we have to make games with ugly LI to make some people more comfortable about their body image?
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 4, 2017 11:19:23 GMT
Sorry, I know that's to politically correct, but it is a fact. So why do we have to make games with ugly LI to make some people more comfortable about their body image? Thing is, I do not remember Bioware ever giving the player the option to romance obese or otherwise universally ugly characters. All of this is just a matter of taste, its a non-issue really. The day we get LI's that weigh 300 lbs with hook-nosed zit-infested faces is the day I agree with those that say we get universally ugly love interests, which has nothing to do with taste.
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Always teacher, sometimes writer
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 4, 2017 11:21:00 GMT
I guess I don't understand the argument here. Straight men think all sorts of things are attractive. Having a 'classically' beautiful character is only going to appeal to straight male gamers who like that kind of look. So no, dude. Cassandra and Sera - Sera who they can't even romance unless they're playing a girl, are you sure you didn't mean Josephine? - have nothing to do with people's issues towards MEA. Also, JMO, but Miranda's only pretty because the game went out of its way to tell you she was. From her face model to what happened in game, something definitely got lost in translation. Not to mention a ton of people complained about Miradas sex appeal and jack being virtually naked all the time. I guess the thing is you can't have it both ways ultimately.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 4, 2017 11:25:18 GMT
Sorry, I know that's to politically correct, but it is a fact. So why do we have to make games with ugly LI to make some people more comfortable about their body image? Thing is, I do not remember Bioware ever giving the player the option to romance obese or otherwise universally ugly characters. All of this is just a matter of taste, its a non-issue really. The day we get LI's that weigh 300 lbs with hook-nosed zit-infested faces is the day I agree with those that say we get universally ugly love interests, which has nothing to do with taste. Just Sera really. That's who I'm talking about. The others have been fine. EDIT: But some others could have been improved for sure... like giving Vivienne hair, giving Josephine less of a hooked nose, etc. The men needed work too... the original concept art for Solas was amazing, instead we get a bald alien. But Cullen, Dorian, Varric and Iron Bull all had the muscled, traditionally attractive looks for men. Even Blackwall.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 4, 2017 11:34:19 GMT
Thing is, I do not remember Bioware ever giving the player the option to romance obese or otherwise universally ugly characters. All of this is just a matter of taste, its a non-issue really. The day we get LI's that weigh 300 lbs with hook-nosed zit-infested faces is the day I agree with those that say we get universally ugly love interests, which has nothing to do with taste. Just Sera really. That's who I'm talking about. The others have been fine. Well, according to my personal tastes Sera is not beautiful, but that does not mean that she is ugly. Just mediocre. I meet tons of better and worse looking people on the streets on a daily basis.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 4, 2017 11:38:36 GMT
EDIT: But some others could have been improved for sure... like giving Vivienne hair, giving Josephine less of a hooked nose, etc. The men needed work too... the original concept art for Solas was amazing, instead we get a bald alien. But Cullen, Dorian, Varric and Iron Bull all had the muscled, traditionally attractive looks for men. Even Blackwall. The problem here is the ''super model effect''. Have you ever read a womens magazine with lots of top models in it? Then you know the lasting effect those models have on you, which is none - you cannot remember them 15 minutes later or even tell them apart because they all, -while being very beautiful- look completely and utterly forgettable.- Its those tiny quirks and special features that might not be immediately associated with features for the perfect face that makes faces memorable, gives them character and makes them exciting- and ultimately beautiful. I think that is what Bioware tries to achieve with their characters, with various success. I think, in the case of DA:3, they really hit the nail with Cassandra and Solas.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 4, 2017 11:43:19 GMT
EDIT: But some others could have been improved for sure... like giving Vivienne hair, giving Josephine less of a hooked nose, etc. The men needed work too... the original concept art for Solas was amazing, instead we get a bald alien. But Cullen, Dorian, Varric and Iron Bull all had the muscled, traditionally attractive looks for men. Even Blackwall. The problem here is the ''super model effect''. Have you ever read a womens magazine with lots of top models in it? Then you know the lasting effect those models have on you, which is none - you cannot remember them 15 minutes later or even tell them apart because they all, -while being very beautiful- look completely and utterly forgettable.- Its those tiny quirks and special features that might not be immediately associated with features for the perfect face that makes faces memorable, gives them character and makes them interesting - and beautiful. Fair point, but I would say that their personality, character, and voice actor/actress would be what makes them memorable. For example my favorite character of all time in any BioWare IP is Morrigan. She was traditionally beautiful, but her character and voice actress set her apart from the like of Lelianna, Isabella, and Merrill who were also traditionally beautiful.
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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Aug 4, 2017 11:50:17 GMT
Fair point, but I would say that their personality, character, and voice actor/actress would be what makes them memorable. For example my favorite character of all time in any BioWare IP is Morrigan. She was traditionally beautiful, but her character and voice actress set her apart from the like of Lelianna, Isabella, and Merrill who were also traditionally beautiful. Why stop at sounds and personality, the visual effect must not be underestimated, the combination of all those things is important. While I agree with the memorability of the characters you mentioned I have to say that giving them a less generic look would have made them only better. I liked the Characters in origins very much but I have to say I found Liliana and Morrigan, awesome as they may be, visually a little bland. Beautiful for sure, but a little generic - but I think that was because of the limited capabilities of the engine itself. Now that Bioware has better engines they are making more complex and less 'generic' looking characters. Personally, I am happy with Biowares approach, I like that they are trying not to make every LI look like a Tomb Raider spinoff or like one of those dime a dozen forgettable super models. And yes, this approach does occasionally produce characters I do not find visually appealing, but at the same time I also get characters that I find very appealing and interesting. I like that they're not playing it safe , for me it totally works.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Aug 4, 2017 11:52:20 GMT
That doesn't look anything like an elephant. Edit: Found the elephant OP keeps talking about: Other people making the joke first has never stopped me before!
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LogicGunn
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I'll relinquish one bullet. Where do you want it?
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by LogicGunn on Aug 4, 2017 11:56:01 GMT
CONVENTIONAL BEAUTY! Cause opinions are ever conventional.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Aug 4, 2017 12:48:42 GMT
Actually, as close as I can get to a serious answer is this:
I guess it makes no sense how the video game industry has grown over the last 40 years, since they've only been able to create a female image without triangle boobs for less than half that time.
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I'd rather be Mordin Solus
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 4, 2017 13:17:59 GMT
People like eye-candy, both men and women. That's a fact that is never going to change. But the media seems to pretend its not a factor in people's purchases. I don't think the "media" at large ignores it (unless you meant specifically gaming news media?). Hollywood, TV, advertisers, fashion industries, PR people, etc. certainly don't ignore it. Most game developers don't either. They know that, as you said, people like their eye candy. As to why Bioware in particular seems to reject this basic human reaction/desire, I dunno. I assume it has to do with some ideological preferences of someone up the chain of decision making. Really hope they get a clue before their next game comes out. Yeah, the games media. My point was that no mainstream game news sites talk about hetero male rage as one of the reasons for all the hate, when clearly it was.
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Post by I'd rather be Mordin Solus on Aug 4, 2017 13:28:39 GMT
I guess I don't understand the argument here. Straight men think all sorts of things are attractive. Having a 'classically' beautiful character is only going to appeal to straight male gamers who like that kind of look. So no, dude. Cassandra and Sera - Sera who they can't even romance unless they're playing a girl, are you sure you didn't mean Josephine? - have nothing to do with people's issues towards MEA. Hey, how were characters from a game in a completely different series even supposed to have an effect on ME:A? Not having traditionally beautiful women in DAI primed hetero males to hate everything Bioware. It's become a knee-jerk reaction now among many male gamers. Bioware = ugly women, gorgeous men = not for me = hate Never underestimate a threatened males's rage. Bioware could easily have avoided a lot of the hate (not all of it, of course) by some including some eye candy for the hetero males.
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Post by warrior on Aug 4, 2017 14:01:00 GMT
Hey, how were characters from a game in a completely different series even supposed to have an effect on ME:A? Not having traditionally beautiful women in DAI primed hetero males to hate everything Bioware. It's become a knee-jerk reaction now among many male gamers. Bioware = ugly women, gorgeous men = not for me = hate Never underestimate a threatened males's rage. Bioware could easily have avoided a lot of the hate (not all of it, of course) by some including some eye candy for the hetero males. If the rage of males "threatened" by so-called "ugly" women (where "ugly" is construed as anything deviating from supermodel standards) is enough to sink a popular video game franchise, I'm not sure catering to their tantrum is the best solution to the problem. It doesn't work so well with toddlers--yielding too often to such entitled aggression means your kid will be a piece of shit as an adult. Maybe we should instead just let video games die. Then maybe people will have more time to read some books and get a bit smarter.
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Post by decafhigh on Aug 4, 2017 14:11:04 GMT
In short there is no such thing as a "standard of beauty". Great!!! Then Sarkisian and all the feminist wankers can stop complaining about "unrealistic beauty standards" and we can go back to the days of your typical fantasy character archetypes like Lara Croft and Bayonetta and developers don't have to feel obligated to make their characters more like Sera and Sara to please some radical voices from outside the industry. What a relief! Glad we got that settled.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 4, 2017 14:22:29 GMT
Personally, I rather like Sera's canonical character design since it fits her character and background. She's not the type to care about appearance and how much fine hairdressing common folk have available is limited so her hair looking like she cut it herself makes a lot of sense. Isn't it canon that she does cut her hair herself? I believe there are banters with Dorian on the subject.
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 4, 2017 14:25:49 GMT
Fair point, but I would say that their personality, character, and voice actor/actress would be what makes them memorable. For example my favorite character of all time in any BioWare IP is Morrigan. She was traditionally beautiful, but her character and voice actress set her apart from the like of Lelianna, Isabella, and Merrill who were also traditionally beautiful. Why stop at sounds and personality, the visual effect must not underestimated, the combination of all those things is important. While I agree with the memorability of the characters you mentioned I have to say that giving them a less generic look would have made them only better. I liked the Characters in origins very much but I have to say I found Liliana and Morrigan, awesome as they may be, visually a little bland. Beautiful for sure, but a little generic - but I think that was because of the limited capabilities of the engine itself. Now that Bioware has better engines they are making more complex and less 'generic' looking characters. The DA Redesigned mod -- which was popular IIRC -- actually made this aspect worse.
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Post by ruggly on Aug 4, 2017 14:30:36 GMT
Personally, I rather like Sera's canonical character design since it fits her character and background. She's not the type to care about appearance and how much fine hairdressing common folk have available is limited so her hair looking like she cut it herself makes a lot of sense. Isn't it canon that she does cut her hair herself? I believe there are banters with Dorian on the subject. It is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 4, 2017 14:45:56 GMT
Honestly, this is why more people don't bother voicing their opinions anymore. Arguing that certain standards for beauty exist in the world is stupid because every already knows it's true. The only truly universal beauty standards I've ever seen have to do with symmetry and clear skin - which all of BioWare's characters meet. I don't suppose you've ever considered how whining about the appearance of fictional characters in a videogame sounds? There's always one weirdo with an ugly fetish... usually due to lack of self-esteem. (Before this offends someone, it's mostly a sarcastic comment) Funny stuff, coming from someone who's complaining that the LI options in a video game aren't attractive enough to feed his arm candy ego and pride of ownership.
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