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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2017 20:24:46 GMT
The plot of Andromeda already involves us overcoming tremendous odds with tenacity and ingenuity.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 9, 2017 20:29:04 GMT
Aaaaaand you lost me. A game based on player choice shaping the narrative doesn't need a "sad, sobering ending" any more than it needs a party and dancing Ewoks. What it needs is an ending that reflects the choices made. That takes creative vision. Vision which Bioware has had in short supply in recent years. First of all: just because it's not what you want, doesn't mean it wouldn't take creative vision. I wouldn't particularly like a Mass Effect game where you go to a different galaxy only to invariably fail, but God damn, would I respect how big of a middle finger that would be. There's just something that strikes me as very Cyberpunk or New Wave about the notion. A move that utterly inadvisable for an power-fantasy RPG followup to Mass Effect 3 would be a work of art on its own. That, of course, assumes that the writing actually succeeds in creating a subversive game. Having an ending that meticulously accounts for your choices but nevertheless ends in only numerous distinct brands of failure would certainly be a way of doing that. Yeah...I have zero respect for those who disrespect their audiences that way. Sure, I can appreciate a story where things can go horribly wrong in a number of ways, or even if there is no true "golden ending" (I mean, I'm playing Fallout New Vegas now for the umpteenth time) But I can't imagine a scenario where "Failure is the Only Option" is ever a good idea in something that purports to respect player choice.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 20:34:20 GMT
And how about Bioware writers using a brain for a change, that is the reason we have one. Or how about you using yours to realize quality of plot is subjective. Quality of plot is not subjective. Liking a plot or hating a plot has nothing to do with quality.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 20:44:14 GMT
Or how about you using yours to realize quality of plot is subjective. Quality of plot is not subjective. Liking a plot or hating a plot has nothing to do with quality. As a concept, quality is just a measure of how well a thing does what it's supposed to do; whether it meets requirements. Since we each come into this with different requirements, the evaluation would be subjective.
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Post by RoboticWater on Aug 9, 2017 20:53:36 GMT
But the machines themselves are magic. Yes, they were built to stabilize the planets, but only because the writers specifically designed them to do so. If we consider every narrative element within their own logical context, then of course it's easy to call them logically consistent. You could just as easily use that to claim anything was entirely logical. Andromeda didn't need another advanced techno-precursor race who conveniently left their terraforming devices ready to go. It didn't need planets that were dying in just such a way to require those devices. It didn't need scenarios where deux-ex-SAM was the only solution. The writers created those narrative beats. They could have, though it would require more effort, created a compelling story without those things. One that maybe leveraged a bit more of our own internal drive. Tbh it sounds like you're making a different point to the one I was responding to. If your argument is that the entire concept of 'exploring ancient mysteries in outer space' is flawed from the outset then I can only assume you were expecting MEA to be something it was never going to be. That's not what I was getting at, rather: Andromeda is, in no small part, about the struggle for survival on desolate worlds. I'd actually hazard to say that this is the central conflict of the game. It is the drive for survival that pushes the entire plot forward. Given that this is the central conflict of the game, it is unsatisfying that its solution is merely flipping a switch, not ingenuity and compromise. As for ancient mysteries: ignoring how poorly I think this motif was implemented, I know it can't be the central conflict, nor even much of a conflict at all. You never really grapple with the mysteries. You fight against someone else to control it, but never to you really struggle to comprehend or truly explore it like in, say, Rendezvous with Rama or The Anvil of Jove. In fact, by having the central conflict be against a simple antagonist, it greatly detracts from the survival narrative. I'm not annoyed that this is what they do, I'm annoyed that they exist in the first place. Again, you're thinking very much within the context of the story we got, not the story we could have gotten. I understand what they do and I understand their function in the story and I even understand that their function is necessary in that story, but the story we got didn't need to written that way. Not at all. The difference between the vaults and the relays is that the relays are the basis for the core conflict of the trilogy, the vaults are the solution. The original trilogy explores the conflict that arises when intergalactic species; the mass relays are necessary for that conflict to arise, because we currently know of no solutions for FTL. They also, until the end of the series, which ruined everything, aided the conflict that arose from blindly trusting "eldritch" technology. If the conflict of Andromeda is indeed the struggle for survival on barren planets (which it should be), then the vaults only serve to undermine that conflict by providing a simple solution. Because survival is reduced to essentially just flipping a switch, we lose out on all the character growth and agency we'd have by creating our own solutions or compromises. If the trilogy had been about the struggle to attain FTL travel, then yes, you would be correct, the vaults and the relays would be the same thing, because a mass relay would completely undermine the struggle our characters would have to go through You wouldn't have to play Watney, but that doesn't preclude others from being intelligent. Offloading plot advancements to ancient technology or an AI just computing the answer take away agency from colonists who could be solving things on their own. No, its near-universal criticism proves my point further. People enjoyed the show more when the characters had their own agency and were solving problems on their own. When all the God stuff started creeping in, the show became very contrived, much like Mass Effect
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Post by RoboticWater on Aug 9, 2017 20:54:58 GMT
The plot of Andromeda already involves us overcoming tremendous odds with tenacity and ingenuity. *shooty bang bangs and plot contrivances
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 20:55:32 GMT
Quality of plot is not subjective. Liking a plot or hating a plot has nothing to do with quality. As a concept, quality is just a measure of how well a thing does what it's supposed to do; whether it meets requirements. Since we each come into this with different requirements, the evaluation would be subjective. What the different requirements of each individual are does not make a plot good or bad or have quality. Same with how successful the game is.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2017 20:55:32 GMT
Quality of plot is not subjective. Liking a plot or hating a plot has nothing to do with quality. As a concept, quality is just a measure of how well a thing does what it's supposed to do; whether it meets requirements. Since we each come into this with different requirements, the evaluation would be subjective. not to mention i view the quality of a plot...as a technical study...by its change and internal consistency. Alot of people seem to be of the opinion 'Bioware should have done THIS instead...' and i even agree to a point with some of the criticisms in terms of personal weight...but the point is MEA is well written because it's logically consistent, effectively builds to a conclusion, and charged the setting...in a logical manner.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 9, 2017 20:59:20 GMT
Or how about you using yours to realize quality of plot is subjective. Quality of plot is not subjective. Liking a plot or hating a plot has nothing to do with quality. Yes it is. I think Picasso paintings are terrible and he was a terrible artist. Subjective opinion.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 21:03:17 GMT
As a concept, quality is just a measure of how well a thing does what it's supposed to do; whether it meets requirements. Since we each come into this with different requirements, the evaluation would be subjective. What the different requirements of each individual are does not make a plot good or bad or have quality. Same with how successful the game is. A plot is what it is. Personal requirements (or standards) are what determines how any particular individual rates a plot in terms of overall quality.
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Post by RoboticWater on Aug 9, 2017 21:05:10 GMT
First of all: just because it's not what you want, doesn't mean it wouldn't take creative vision. I wouldn't particularly like a Mass Effect game where you go to a different galaxy only to invariably fail, but God damn, would I respect how big of a middle finger that would be. There's just something that strikes me as very Cyberpunk or New Wave about the notion. A move that utterly inadvisable for an power-fantasy RPG followup to Mass Effect 3 would be a work of art on its own. That, of course, assumes that the writing actually succeeds in creating a subversive game. Having an ending that meticulously accounts for your choices but nevertheless ends in only numerous distinct brands of failure would certainly be a way of doing that. Yeah...I have zero respect for those who disrespect their audiences that way. Yes, but do you disagree that it would take vision? And as always, I differ in that I value the artistic agency over player agency. The point of a game were failure is the only outcome is to deliberately disrespect the player's agency, presumably to make some statement about the unfairness of life or the impossibility of compromise in extreme circumstances or whatever else. BioWare could also, in a stroke of ironic genius, make a game that accounted for choice so much more intricately than their previous games, but that it always ended in some distinct failure state. So long as the point is coherent, salient, and emotionally resonant, I'll let the author treat me as badly as they want.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 21:05:14 GMT
Quality of plot is not subjective. Liking a plot or hating a plot has nothing to do with quality. Yes it is. I think Picasso paintings are terrible and he was a terrible artist. Subjective opinion. As i said before liking or disliking something has nothing to do with quality and i think you just proved it with your post.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 21:08:25 GMT
Yes it is. I think Picasso paintings are terrible and he was a terrible artist. Subjective opinion. As i said before liking or disliking something has nothing to do with quality and i think you just proved it with your post. And yet you dislike Andromeda's plot, therefore it's bad quality?
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 9, 2017 21:12:29 GMT
Yes it is. I think Picasso paintings are terrible and he was a terrible artist. Subjective opinion. As i said before liking or disliking something has nothing to do with quality and i think you just proved it with your post. Nope. You just proved you don't know how opinions work.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 21:14:11 GMT
As i said before liking or disliking something has nothing to do with quality and i think you just proved it with your post. And yet you dislike Andromeda's plot, therefore it's bad quality? No, I as I said liking a game or not has nothing to do with quality. I am not judging the plot from the point of I like it but by the story the writers created.
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Post by Iakus on Aug 9, 2017 21:15:46 GMT
Yeah...I have zero respect for those who disrespect their audiences that way. Yes, but do you disagree that it would take vision? And as always, I differ in that I value the artistic agency over player agency. The point of a game were failure is the only outcome is to deliberately disrespect the player's agency, presumably to make some statement about the unfairness of life or the impossibility of compromise in extreme circumstances or whatever else. BioWare could also, in a stroke of ironic genius, make a game that accounted for choice so much more intricately than their previous games, but that it always ended in some distinct failure state. So long as the point is coherent, salient, and emotionally resonant, I'll let the author treat me as badly as they want. Depends on what you'd call "vision". I would call it, at the very least, shortsighted (as demonstrated by MEA) They can "make a statement" on their own time. I don't buy games to be lectured at. Nor do I purchase entertainment to be abused. I don't play video games wearing a gimp suit and a ball gag.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 21:18:03 GMT
As a concept, quality is just a measure of how well a thing does what it's supposed to do; whether it meets requirements. Since we each come into this with different requirements, the evaluation would be subjective. not to mention i view the quality of a plot...as a technical study...by its change and internal consistency. Alot of people seem to be of the opinion 'Bioware should have done THIS instead...' and i even agree to a point with some of the criticisms in terms of personal weight...but the point is MEA is well written because it's logically consistent, effectively builds to a conclusion, and charged the setting...in a logical manner. That's a fair methodology. I rate the fictional elements of video games differently than those of books, film, etc. - because they serve vastly different purposes. Honestly, Mass Effect has always been riddled with plot holes, inconsistencies, wacky space magic, ridiculous technology, mcguffins, deus ex machinas, out of character moments, nonsensical character shifts, hurr durr dialogue, etc. I don't know why MEA should be held to different standards than MET. I'm just along for the ride. I don't look to games for literary masterworks, but for a space that allows me to co-create a narrative for the character I'm playing. The more RP space a game provides, the happier I'm going to be in that world. MEA gave me plenty of space and allows me to create a variety of different character narratives, punctuated with some major cinematic drama, so it's high quality for my needs.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 21:20:32 GMT
As i said before liking or disliking something has nothing to do with quality and i think you just proved it with your post. Nope. You just proved you don't know how opinions work. I do know how opinions work. If someone tells me i like the story of this game then i am fine with that and have no problems. If someone says i like the story of this game therefor it has quality then i will not believe that person.
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Post by griffith82 on Aug 9, 2017 21:22:33 GMT
Nope. You just proved you don't know how opinions work. I do know how opinions work. If someone tells me i like the story of this game then i am fine with that and have no problems. If someone says i like the story of this game therefor it has quality then i will not believe that person. Ok you just lost all credibility.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 21:27:34 GMT
I do know how opinions work. If someone tells me i like the story of this game then i am fine with that and have no problems. If someone says i like the story of this game therefor it has quality then i will not believe that person. Ok you just lost all credibility. OK, i will stop replying then as i don't think you understand what i am saying.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 21:31:45 GMT
And yet you dislike Andromeda's plot, therefore it's bad quality? No, I as I said liking a game or nor has nothing to do with quality. I am not judging the plot from the point of I like it but by the story the writers created. Explain, then, how you've come to the conclusion that the plot is objectively poor quality. Because right now, you're not making any sense.
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Post by smilesja on Aug 9, 2017 22:37:06 GMT
The plot of Andromeda already involves us overcoming tremendous odds with tenacity and ingenuity. *shooty bang bangs and plot contrivances Wasn't that the same in ME2 and ME3?
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Post by RoboticWater on Aug 9, 2017 22:59:08 GMT
*shooty bang bangs and plot contrivances Wasn't that the same in ME2 and ME3? And should be thusly criticized. The main plots of those games simply weren't that good. Thankfully, they were not nearly so boring and stretched thin. Side arks, chiefly the Genophage, maintain a high standard of quality in spite of the narrative they were intended to support and make the trilogy quite decent as far as Science Fiction media goes.
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Post by colfoley on Aug 9, 2017 23:12:45 GMT
not to mention i view the quality of a plot...as a technical study...by its change and internal consistency. Alot of people seem to be of the opinion 'Bioware should have done THIS instead...' and i even agree to a point with some of the criticisms in terms of personal weight...but the point is MEA is well written because it's logically consistent, effectively builds to a conclusion, and charged the setting...in a logical manner. That's a fair methodology. I rate the fictional elements of video games differently than those of books, film, etc. - because they serve vastly different purposes. Honestly, Mass Effect has always been riddled with plot holes, inconsistencies, wacky space magic, ridiculous technology, mcguffins, deus ex machinas, out of character moments, nonsensical character shifts, hurr durr dialogue, etc. I don't know why MEA should be held to different standards than MET. I'm just along for the ride. I don't look to games for literary masterworks, but for a space that allows me to co-create a narrative for the character I'm playing. The more RP space a game provides, the happier I'm going to be in that world. MEA gave me plenty of space and allows me to create a variety of different character narratives, punctuated with some major cinematic drama, so it's high quality for my needs. that is similar to how i feel on the subject. Gamings blessing and its curse is gameplay. Gameplay often overwrites story and is more important resource wise. So this means the pure fact of the matter is stories in game may never be as advanced as stories for Tv and novels. However game play can make games fun to where the flaws in the story might not be as important.
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Post by suikoden on Aug 9, 2017 23:24:20 GMT
Quality of plot is not subjective. Liking a plot or hating a plot has nothing to do with quality. Yes it is. I think Picasso paintings are terrible and he was a terrible artist. Subjective opinion. That just means you have zero knowledge about paintings from that era - what to look for, what to appreciate, etc. The same could apply to a plot - if you have - say, no post-secondary education - and you're 30 years removed from any sort of schooling, vs someone that's a literature major working on his/her masters in the field of creative writing - it's not that your opinion is subjective, it's just vapid and uninformed, because there are clearly elements of plotting the are good/bad if you know what to look for.
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