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Post by alanc9 on Aug 9, 2017 15:15:28 GMT
I find it fascinating what everyone thinks they can do as a CD, when I would bet a lot of the same problems would likely still occur regardless of the vision present in-studio. I normally don't chime in on this stuff, but one thing I would throw out there is simple; budget the time a bit better. It is clear that was the real mis-handling here from the director and producer chairs. That might mean a different starting vision -- either abandoning the procedural concept early, or going all-in on copying ME1 and accepting that the procedural stuff was gonna be a crappy overlay on top of the quality main quest planets. A lot of the lists here would need more resources from someplace, and this is the most rational way to think they might have been found.
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Post by kino on Aug 9, 2017 15:26:27 GMT
Bring back squad control. The decision to stay away from procedurally generated planets was a good one, though.
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Post by linksocarina on Aug 9, 2017 15:36:13 GMT
I find it fascinating what everyone thinks they can do as a CD, when I would bet a lot of the same problems would likely still occur regardless of the vision present in-studio. I normally don't chime in on this stuff, but one thing I would throw out there is simple; budget the time a bit better. It is clear that was the real mis-handling here from the director and producer chairs. That might mean a different starting vision -- either abandoning the procedural concept early, or going all-in on copying ME1 and accepting that the procedural stuff was gonna be a crappy overlay on top of the quality main quest planets. A lot of the lists here would need more resources from someplace, and this is the most rational way to think they might have been found. That is what I mean by budgeting the time. If there was one change, the love affair with procedural created worlds needed to go quickly. but I doubt there would be enough resources to do all of what people fantasize about, so things must be cut. Time however, is still finite.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 15:43:43 GMT
Bring back squad control. The decision to stay away from procedurally generated planets was a good one, though. The decision to spend 2 years working on it before they scrapped it, however, was not. That's why, despite spending spending 5 years in development, it still felt rushed and half-finished on release...
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 16:14:56 GMT
I've been wondering for months now. What are the "procedurally generated planets"?
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Post by Iakus on Aug 9, 2017 16:21:19 GMT
I've been wondering for months now. What are the "procedurally generated planets"? There aren't any. But the plan, earlier in production was that at least some of the planets we could land on would be procedurally generated, rather than hand-crafted. Obviously, this would make telling a coherent storyline on that world kinda difficult.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 16:22:22 GMT
I've been wondering for months now. What are the "procedurally generated planets"? There aren't any. But the plan, earlier in production was that at least some of the planets we could land on would be procedurally generated, rather than hand-crafted. Obviously, this would make telling a coherent storyline on that world kinda difficult. (Groan) but what does "procedurally generated" even mean?
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Post by ShadowAngel on Aug 9, 2017 16:27:16 GMT
There aren't any. But the plan, earlier in production was that at least some of the planets we could land on would be procedurally generated, rather than hand-crafted. Obviously, this would make telling a coherent storyline on that world kinda difficult. (Groan) but what does "procedurally generated" even mean? Random generated maps.
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Post by BadgerladDK on Aug 9, 2017 16:29:35 GMT
There aren't any. But the plan, earlier in production was that at least some of the planets we could land on would be procedurally generated, rather than hand-crafted. Obviously, this would make telling a coherent storyline on that world kinda difficult. (Groan) but what does "procedurally generated" even mean? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procedural_generationFor an example of it not working, see No Mans Sky. Lots and lots of bland planets, but on this one, the flowers are yellow and rabbits have beaks. For examples of it working, see many small roguelikes that use it to give you different levels on each try, for example FTL: Faster Than Light.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 16:31:35 GMT
Random maps with random spawns or something? Meh.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 16:40:35 GMT
Random maps with random spawns or something? Meh. It’s the future but it will take a few more years before it can be perfected to an acceptable level.
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Post by RoboticWater on Aug 9, 2017 16:56:45 GMT
The easy solution to your "procedural narrative" is that there would be none. A handful of the planets would have been hand-crafted, and the narrative would have thread through those planets. The rest of the planets would be all about the Pathfinder colonization effort. If Hello Games was able to build a procedurally-generated universe of billions of planets with only 16 employees 16 billion planets, none of them the least bit interesting. You're vastly overplaying their successes (if we can even say had any) in order to make your point. No Man's Sky is, at most, an overpriced demoscene piece. Arguably neat to look at, but zero compelling gameplay. Yeah, BioWare could probably make a nicer-looking game with a slightly more sophisticated algorithm, but I don't think they could make it fun. See, this is why we have bad games. What you're suggesting is that BioWare create two entirely separate experiences and then glue them together after the fact, and then hope that just works out. This is why we have things like planet scanning, this awkward feature that really had no place in a game with the structure of Mass Effect 2, making both worse in the process. And that's just a tiny thing, it probably cost very little to implement and required no alterations to the main gameplay loop in order to exist. If I recall, you did this exact same thing with Co-op (or, at least, someone did). You thought: Co-op sounds cool and it's sort of in the same ballpark, Mass Effect should do Co-op, and then nothing else. Creative decisions like these need to be thought through. Art is work. Ideas need to be considered, refined, and deemed feasible. So let's go through the exercise: - What's the gameplay on these planets? Do we fight the same Kett and raiders every time? Will that not get repetitive like it did in No Man's Sky, or, indeed, the current Andromeda? Do we fight procedurally generated native fauna? Wouldn't that clash with an anti-imperialist narrative?
- How do you make the colony establishment system interesting without any procedural narrative? Without dialog or any narrative context, the viability system boils down to go here, get this, and kill these things. Sure sounds a lot like those fetch quests everyone hated.
- How do we procedurally generate engaging combat arenas? Current methods involve making pre-designed tile sets and linking them together. Will we just be fighting in more linked-together prefab bases? If you don't want to do tile sets, how will the combat system need to be altered to make it more amenable to procedurally generated combat arenas?
- Do we even have planets that don't have combat? If we do, what sort of ancillary gameplay systems do we now need to support that?
- How will the leveling and scaling system accommodate essentially infinite progression? Is acquiring every single power in a single playthrough really that compelling once you've found a few sets you enjoy? Is the loadout system even that fun?
- Will our squad mates have banter on procedurally generated planets? Even if they do, won't it run out very quickly? Wouldn't that clash with the rest of the game?
- If we're able to colonize a whole ton of planets, how does that affect the story we're trying to tell? Can we have the same dire circumstances driving the plot forward if we can settle on any number of an infinite set of planets?
- Is EA going to want to push microtransactions into this model?
- How do we divide resources among the base game and this procedurally generated part? How much would the Mass Effect fans want us to divert from their story-driven adventure?
- Is Mass Effect really the franchise that needs procedural generation? Should we not try to perfect the existing and somewhat flawed systems rather than try something incredibly risky?
Those are just some of the logistics we need to get through to make this work, and ever after all that we would need to make sacrifices. I sincerely doubt that EA would greenlight extra funds for a tacked on procedural system that they can't mine for extra cash, so Montreal would have to divide up the budget they would've gotten in order to make it work. I don't like games that feel like disjointed compromises.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 17:11:52 GMT
Random maps with random spawns or something? Meh. I think the goal was to make each playthrough different. Successful procedural generation also would have meant that you'd have some planets (asteroids, whatever) in your game that no other player has. It's been successfully used in a variety of strategy and simulation type games for decades, where they generate a new world map every time you start a new game. Some of those games also have map editors that allow you to create your own maps. The best use for it in ME imho would be to supplement handcrafted main mission maps, so the additional generated maps could give you a bit more to explore, some resources to gather, various enemies spawning, and whatnot. No biggie.
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 9, 2017 17:14:18 GMT
I gotta say, I would have never tried to go for the procedural stuff. Don't get me wrong, I do think it's fantastic technology. I was one of the few who actually admired No Man's Sky for what it did achieve and I am super excited about what they are doing with Star Citizen but for a Mass Effect? The whole premise of the ME games goes against huge procedural worlds. These games are about story and characters and a density of atmosphere to which huge procedural worlds are counter-productive in every way.
The other thing I would have done is to hire a dedicated Lore Master for the ME universe. A guy who's exclusive job it is to check the writing in the game and point out incosistencies in the story and the established lore. That should have been done about 10 years ago really, when they knew that they were going to make a long lasting game series but hey, better late then never.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 17:14:22 GMT
Random maps with random spawns or something? Meh. I think the goal was to make each playthrough different. Successful procedural generation also would have meant that you'd have some planets (asteroids, whatever) in your game that no other player has. It's been successfully used in a variety of strategy and simulation type games for decades, where they generate a new world map every time you start a new game. Some of those games also have map editors that allow you to create your own maps. The best use for it in ME imho would be to supplement handcrafted main mission maps, so the additional generated maps could give you a bit more to explore, some resources to gather, various enemies spawning, and whatnot. No biggie. I specifically want things to be the same second time round, so it goes faster & I can just see differences in the story/descisions.
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Post by sjsharp2010 on Aug 9, 2017 17:16:54 GMT
Aside from maybe moer player choices and using a similar combat system to that of the trilogy. I'm not sure I'd have changed much as I quite liked the game for what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 17:19:23 GMT
I think the goal was to make each playthrough different. Successful procedural generation also would have meant that you'd have some planets (asteroids, whatever) in your game that no other player has. It's been successfully used in a variety of strategy and simulation type games for decades, where they generate a new world map every time you start a new game. Some of those games also have map editors that allow you to create your own maps. The best use for it in ME imho would be to supplement handcrafted main mission maps, so the additional generated maps could give you a bit more to explore, some resources to gather, various enemies spawning, and whatnot. No biggie. I specifically want things to be the same second time round, so it goes faster & I can just see differences in the story/descisions. And that's fine. As it is, MEA's map has a lot of systems with scannable "anomalies" that are completely optional and eminently skippable.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 9, 2017 17:22:09 GMT
Random maps with random spawns or something? Meh. I think the goal was to make each playthrough different. Successful procedural generation also would have meant that you'd have some planets (asteroids, whatever) in your game that no other player has. It's been successfully used in a variety of strategy and simulation type games for decades, where they generate a new world map every time you start a new game. Some of those games also have map editors that allow you to create your own maps. The best use for it in ME imho would be to supplement handcrafted main mission maps, so the additional generated maps could give you a bit more to explore, some resources to gather, various enemies spawning, and whatnot. No biggie. Yes that is one way they could make a Mass Effect by supplementing a few handcrafted planets they wanted to use for plot related things and the rest of the galaxy as random spawns. That would be acceptably until the procedural generation is perfected.
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Post by rolenka on Aug 9, 2017 17:39:10 GMT
Generating rich story procedurally was a foolishly overambitious endeavor. I would not have started down that path in the first place.
With all the time saved by that, every other issue would have been resolved, then further improvements and polish on top of that.
Everything can be blamed, to some extent, on gross mismanagement from the top regarding this single issue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2017 18:04:15 GMT
I am a simple systems administrator. I am not qualified nor would I want the hassle of overseeing such a massive project.
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Post by guanxi on Aug 9, 2017 18:05:53 GMT
The story never needed the Kett, or the remnant or the scourge - we were the invading enemy here. The story should always have been an analogy for manifest destiny in the post modern-era exploring the themes of imperialism and colonization of alien civilizations. The player should have have been given the opportunity to profoundly shape the course of history of & relationships between the Angara, humanity and the other milky way civilizations for centuries to come.
Helios imo should have been chosen primarily because it's oxygen & carbon rich (explaining Angaran physiology), it's strategic location and finally at it's core lies a 1/100000 giant element zero mass required to power the nexus, arks and construct Mass Relays throughout Andromeda for future expansion. The most earth-like planet designated for human colonization Habitat 7 just so happens to be the Angara home-world who having defeated the Kett in their recent past have been left both severely weakened and extremely prejudiced and mistrustful of aliens though potentially targets for an alliance.
Human leadership suspected the planet was already inhabited and prepared for full scale (potentially severely costly) war ahead of the journey. Your orders are to secure the planet, the element zero core and the future of humanity at any cost. You're tasked with leading an expedition to Habitat 7 to perform recon on the planet and to (optionally) attempt diplomatic relations with the Angara.
Early on you discover through conversation that the Angara have developed advanced AIs that can communicate directly with alien AI/VIs facilitating basic communication with other advanced alien sentient life. If you submit to capture by Angaran forces you are informed you will be granted an audience with their political leadership to begin diplomatic talks or you can call down forces from the ark and begin a hostile invasion immediately.
If you declare a hostile invasion you can begin capturing Angaran settlements (0-100%) and begin settling the planet for humanity. Out of personal preference I'd make habitat 7 a jungle planet and the Angara would be a guerrilla army of Avengers and Insurgents inspired by Predator.
If you attempt a formal peaceful diplomatic approach with the Angara they propose only that your citizens apply for Angaran citizenship and submit to Angaran laws, customs and taxes as alien settlements will not be permitted. If you accept this proposal humanity will be recognized as a protected client state of the Angara but in return you must help them sabotage the other milky way species. If you refuse you can either declare war or simply accept an embassy for future trade negations and look for another home-world elsewhere. You then meet with Human leadership to discuss options (paths) for the future of humanity:
1) Accept Angara offer and sabotage the other species 2) Attempt to annex Habitat 7 with human forces (alone) 3) Attempt to gain milky way allies first to help humanity take it 4) Attempt to find and settle an uninhabited inhospitable home-world (Veold) 5) Partner with the Krogan, Asari or Salarians and co-settle/conquer their habitat
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Post by alanc9 on Aug 9, 2017 18:41:27 GMT
I dunno how declaring war could work unless the angara have zero space capability left. Ground fighting is hopeless, but blackmailing them with the threat of orbital bombardment could work.
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Post by guanxi on Aug 9, 2017 18:57:01 GMT
I dunno how declaring war could work unless the angara have zero space capability left. Ground fighting is hopeless, but blackmailing them with the threat of orbital bombardment could work. I'd make the arks much bigger and militaristic. They'd need to contain a fleet and some orbital capability and the cryo-stasis thawing would need to be done en-masse. You'll always need armies to take cities.
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Post by jamiecotc on Aug 9, 2017 19:05:00 GMT
Not go to Andromeda.
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