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Post by fchopin on Aug 10, 2017 12:13:13 GMT
A dot of the hat for even sharing your experience and daring to express it. Liking both franchises is not popular on this forum. I like both so don't understand what the problem is.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 10, 2017 12:45:33 GMT
A dot of the hat for even sharing your experience and daring to express it. Liking both franchises is not popular on this forum. I like both so don't understand what the problem is. I like both franchises minus MEA and DAI. Problem is, DAO, DA2, and the MET were not compared against TW3. For me, TW3 and even Horizon had set a high bar for open world RPGs, I just do not think Bioware can match, but we shall see with DA4.
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Post by jackdaniel on Aug 10, 2017 13:44:24 GMT
I like both so don't understand what the problem is. I like both franchises minus MEA and DAI. Problem is, DAO, DA2, and the MET were not compared against TW3. For me, TW3 and even Horizon had set a high bar for open world RPGs, I just do not think Bioware can match, but we shall see with DA4. TW series was spun-off of a novel, and apparently so is the cyberpunk game CDR is putting out. Mass Effect and DA are both original stories, so maybe that's a sign of their respective strength and weakness.
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Post by shinobiwan on Aug 10, 2017 14:53:32 GMT
My opinion of the game has plummeted. I was one of the early defenders, hugely hyped for another ME game in any shape or form, and I loved the premise. I also held out some hope that they would make an earnest effort to improve things based on the statements made shortly after release.
Since then, the hype cooled, the flaws kept hitting, and I moved on to better games that demonstrate how unforgivably bad MEA was. At least I got my wish - the IP will be transferred to more competent hands.
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cypherj
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Post by cypherj on Aug 10, 2017 15:53:36 GMT
The main thing TW3 has over ME:A and DA:I is the living world.
1) Day/night cycle 2) The cities in the games are far more lively and immersive. People going about their daily lives, reacting to what's going around them, more ambient sounds. 3) Even outside the cities. You go out into a forest in TW and you have animals, insects and other things making noise. bushes rustling as if animals are moving around, etc.
These things weren't strong points of Bioware in general even before they tried open world. Their bread n butter has always been characters and story. So if someone doesn't think these things were done well, their games don't have much outside of that to make up for it and carry them for some people. Especially if combat isn't one of things you for most in a game.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:09:00 GMT
The main thing TW3 has over ME:A and DA:I is the living world. 1) Day/night cycle 2) The cities in the games are far more lively and immersive. People going about their daily lives, reacting to what's going around them, more ambient sounds. 3) Even outside the cities. You go out into a forest in TW and you have animals, insects and other things making noise. bushes rustling as if animals are moving around, etc. These things weren't strong points of Bioware in general even before they tried open world. Their bread n butter has always been characters and story. So if someone doesn't think these things were done well, their games don't have much outside of that to make up for it and carry them for some people. Especially if combat isn't one of things you for most in a game. Well, yes, atmosphere, combat, possessions, events and characters that you get invested in are pretty much the ingredients of a video game.
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Post by qwib on Aug 10, 2017 16:22:08 GMT
It also proved to me that open world is not a death sentence to RPG. I had thought that Andromeda's story suffered from having to cope with being an open world game, and that content will inevitably be stretched too thin, and that boring fillers are necessary evil. I will say that I am wrong on that point. Open world games maybe harder to make, but it just means one has to work harder. I nearly fell out of my chair.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 10, 2017 16:24:14 GMT
Not only the living world, but The Witcher 3 has also great characters, good dialogues and a good plot. You can actually care about the quests you're doing, and they actually have consequences in the game (Like releasing a guy that was tied to ropes and later finding out he was a bandit, or insulting a priest and later he sends assassins after you). Also, there are some quests that are really funny and original (like fixing temples that were being vandalized and finding out that they were being destroyed by nihilistic atheists with a lot of references to Nietzsche, or the guy that keeps challenging you to a duel on "behalf of his lady"). While ME:A most of the quests are "Hey, I need to find someone/something", then you go to the place, find the person's corpse or that she/he had actually joined some bad people (then you make a binary choice that has zero consequence) and then go back to the quest giver. 90% of the quests are like that. Some of them you even scan a thing that it's like 3 feet away and the quest is completed, it's pretty pathetic. Not to mention the quests that let you "on hold" for 30 hours in the game.
Other small things that, when banded together, really show how immersive TW3 is: You really see the country is at war when you walk around and see people hanging from trees, destroyed villages, corpses on the road, battlefields. The sun really rises in the east and settles in the west (look at the detail!), the people in the city react to the world around them, Geralt's beard grows with time (and the characters make comments if you let it grow!), etc.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:39:16 GMT
Andromeda has quests where you are not assured of the conventional outcome, like a medic that works in the slums that had his medicine turned into a drug by the gangs, but when you try to retrieve the formula, someone accuses him of being a drug dealer himself and that woman begs you to save her life by not taking the formula.
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Post by anarchy65 on Aug 10, 2017 16:46:32 GMT
Andromeda has quests where you are not assured of the conventional outcome, like a medic that works in the slums that had his medicine turned into a drug by the gangs, but when you try to retrieve the formula, someone accuses him of being a drug dealer himself and that woman begs you to save her life by not taking the formula. If you read his datapad and her console, you can see she's lying and the medic was telling the truth.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 16:53:42 GMT
Andromeda has quests where you are not assured of the conventional outcome, like a medic that works in the slums that had his medicine turned into a drug by the gangs, but when you try to retrieve the formula, someone accuses him of being a drug dealer himself and that woman begs you to save her life by not taking the formula. If you read his datapad and her console, you can see she's lying and the medic was telling the truth. Yep, which makes it an interesting quest design in my view, encouraging the player not to judge the book by its cover or act emotionally. S/he is provided with means to reach the desired outcome if the player is thorough and attentive, and the quest ends differently depending on the choices.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 10, 2017 16:59:56 GMT
I said this in another thread, but Andromeda suffers from the universe not having any history.
In TW, you have books, characters on different side of conflicts.
Same as in ME, and DA. Jack was mistreated in a Cerberus facility, therefore she hates Cerberus and has issue with the Cerberus officers on the ship. Krogan and Salarians disagreeing over the Genophage, Quarians and Geth giving two different pictures over who was most to blame for the war. In Dragon Age, you have characters on different sides of the Mage/Templar conflict, the need for Grey Wardens, blood magic, etc.
This allows the PC to play a character of certain beliefs and have different relationships and interactions based on which side you're on, and gives your decisions more weight with your squad.
You didn't have any of this in Andromeda. Your crew, while they had some personal insecurities, didn't have any issues they were on one side of, or anything they really believed strongly in or stood for. Even worse, you really didn't establish anything in the game that would carry forward.
They could have done something as simple as having crew members be against Jaal, or moreso a Kett defector that was telling you of the inner workings of Kett society that no one trusted. Having someone trying to humanize the Kett and saying something like they would go extinct without exalting creates these type of things. Everything is just so shallow and not fleshed out in the game, and it's shocking as far as the squad goes because you probably spend more personal time with them in this game than any other Bioware game.
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Post by jaegerbane on Aug 10, 2017 18:24:43 GMT
You didn't have any of this in Andromeda. Your crew, while they had some personal insecurities, didn't have any issues they were on one side of, or anything they really believed strongly in or stood for. Even worse, you really didn't establish anything in the game that would carry forward. I honestly don't understand how anyone could play the game and genuinely make this point. It's like saying that Andromeda failed because you didn't have a starship. It's just plain wrong. I mean, what exactly is the whole Drack situation with Spender and the Krogan? Peebee with her outlook? Vetra with her sister? It's really no different to what ME did with its own characters.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 18:35:27 GMT
I agree that the body of lore is there for the Andromeda, both what we brought over from the MW and what has been created in the process of playing. A plot device that allowed more insight in the Kett society would have been appreciated though, but I feel that traversing into the Kett space was reserved for further development.
One of the reasons I am not interested in W games is precisely because it is based on the setting that was not created as a game, but novels, and that the development studio chose to follow the novels, rather than to build a new story set in that setting, therefore leaving too little for the player's creative co-input & discovery.
The reason I do play videogames is because they are not set in stone, like a definitive work of fiction.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 10, 2017 19:07:42 GMT
Sure, some of this is certainly valid, but I honestly don't care why product X have received more funds for development than product Y. All I care about is if product Y is competitive.
As for CDPR funneling tons of cash into TW3 - Again, you can only justify investing a certain amount before risk becomes unacceptable, doesn't matter if you have more games or less. Every business initiative needs to justify itself separately. And if it CAN justify itself financially (as it seemingly did for TW3) perhaps EA needs to take a closer look at their priorities.
I'm not interested in most of the titles EA is making either, so them essentially saying, sorry we needed the money for other things that you don't really care about, isn't helping either.
The problem with Electronic Arts, like Ubisoft, is they have too many studios making too many games. There's only so much money to go around, and this leads to a tighter budget for everybody. Considering BioWare is one of EA's most respected developers, they are more fortunate than most of EA's studios. Even then, between multiple BioWare studios and multiple projects, there's only so much BioWare can funnel into any project. Truth be told, BioWare would likely be better off if it didn't have three projects in the works simultaneously. As with many things in life, quality is oftentimes greater than quantity. CD Projekt Group only has to worry about one project: Cyberpunk 2077 (two if you include the Gwent card game), so the situation is completely different. Major publishers that are bloated just don't have the capacity to compete with smaller publishers that invest everything into a handful of projects.
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Post by Revan Reborn on Aug 10, 2017 19:10:59 GMT
TW series was spun-off of a novel, and apparently so is the cyberpunk game CDR is putting out. Mass Effect and DA are both original stories, so maybe that's a sign of their respective strength and weakness. A slight correction here, but The Wither trilogy of games is an original story. The same will be the case for Cyberpunk 2077. With regard to The Witcher, the games take place five years after the novels. Nothing in the games is actually considered canon by the author of the books. All that was written was creative liberties taken by CDPR, itself.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 10, 2017 19:24:06 GMT
You didn't have any of this in Andromeda. Your crew, while they had some personal insecurities, didn't have any issues they were on one side of, or anything they really believed strongly in or stood for. Even worse, you really didn't establish anything in the game that would carry forward. I honestly don't understand how anyone could play the game and genuinely make this point. It's like saying that Andromeda failed because you didn't have a starship. It's just plain wrong. I mean, what exactly is the whole Drack situation with Spender and the Krogan? Peebee with her outlook? Vetra with her sister? It's really no different to what ME did with its own characters. Those are personal issues, not overarching themes that affect entire races/societies. I thought I made that distinction pretty clear. What themes does Andromeda have like the Quarian/Geth conflict, the Genophage, Human nationalism vs alliance with counsel races, mage/templar conflicts, etc. And I didn't say it failed, I said the other games have this advantage.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 19:29:07 GMT
I honestly don't understand how anyone could play the game and genuinely make this point. It's like saying that Andromeda failed because you didn't have a starship. It's just plain wrong. I mean, what exactly is the whole Drack situation with Spender and the Krogan? Peebee with her outlook? Vetra with her sister? It's really no different to what ME did with its own characters. Those are personal issues, not overarching themes that affect entire races/societies. I thought I made that distinction pretty clear. What themes does Andromeda have like the Quarian/Geth conflict, the Genophage, Human nationalism vs alliance with counsel races, mage/templar conflicts, etc. And I didn't say it failed, I said the other games have this advantage. Krogan vs Nexus? Outcasts vs Nexus? The Roekaar? Did you miss those?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 19:33:08 GMT
Those are personal issues, not overarching themes that affect entire races/societies. I thought I made that distinction pretty clear. What themes does Andromeda have like the Quarian/Geth conflict, the Genophage, Human nationalism vs alliance with counsel races, mage/templar conflicts, etc. And I didn't say it failed, I said the other games have this advantage. Krogan vs Nexus? Outcasts vs Nexus? The Roekaar? Did you miss those? Also, the Kett vs Angara, as well as Angara search for own identity and a bigger philosophical issue of accepting an act of creation. We also deal with the Scourge phenomenon that we have to access as benign or malign on the accumulating body of information. And the AI/Free will issue brought the table by the Ancient Angara AI and Knight and her resistance group and SAM.
MEA is no different than any other BioWARE game in that it does a medley of philosophical themes. I am sure so does the Witcher.
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Post by jackdaniel on Aug 10, 2017 19:36:43 GMT
Sure, some of this is certainly valid, but I honestly don't care why product X have received more funds for development than product Y. All I care about is if product Y is competitive.
As for CDPR funneling tons of cash into TW3 - Again, you can only justify investing a certain amount before risk becomes unacceptable, doesn't matter if you have more games or less. Every business initiative needs to justify itself separately. And if it CAN justify itself financially (as it seemingly did for TW3) perhaps EA needs to take a closer look at their priorities.
I'm not interested in most of the titles EA is making either, so them essentially saying, sorry we needed the money for other things that you don't really care about, isn't helping either.
The problem with Electronic Arts, like Ubisoft, is they have too many studios making too many games. There's only so much money to go around, and this leads to a tighter budget for everybody. Considering BioWare is one of EA's most respected developers, they are more fortunate than most of EA's studios. Even then, between multiple BioWare studios and multiple projects, there's only so much BioWare can funnel into any project. Truth be told, BioWare would likely be better off if it didn't have three projects in the works simultaneously. As with many things in life, quality is oftentimes greater than quantity. CD Projekt Group only has to worry about one project: Cyberpunk 2077 (two if you include the Gwent card game), so the situation is completely different. Major publishers that are bloated just don't have the capacity to compete with smaller publishers that invest everything into a handful of projects. It's ironic to think that multi-billion global conglomerates have trouble competing with independent studio.
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Post by Redhead on Aug 10, 2017 19:39:25 GMT
Guys, few things about Geralt and emotions.
I'm Pole, so i played polish version of TW3, and whenever I heard this "emotionless Geralt" stuff, I was always like "What the hell this people talking about?". So I checked some gameplays on Youtube, with english audio - and then I understood. He actually sounded like some zombie or golem.
Thing is, Geralt wasn't suppose to be like that. Trial of the Grasses never washed him out of emotions, a least not fully, it's even stated in one of books (Sword of Destiny, chapter: Shard of Ice). He is distant, sure; grumpy, of course; sometimes cold, yes. But he definitely is not emotionless. So if this is your only problem with TW3 I would strongly suggest to try it once again - with polish audio and english subtitles (if polish language doesn't sound too funny or strange to you, of course). Believe me, you'll see a huge difference.
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Post by cypherj on Aug 10, 2017 19:54:28 GMT
Those are personal issues, not overarching themes that affect entire races/societies. I thought I made that distinction pretty clear. What themes does Andromeda have like the Quarian/Geth conflict, the Genophage, Human nationalism vs alliance with counsel races, mage/templar conflicts, etc. And I didn't say it failed, I said the other games have this advantage. Krogan vs Nexus? Outcasts vs Nexus? The Roekaar? Did you miss those? The Roekaar are an enemy, I don't see how they even apply. What conflict is there other than they want to kill all non-angarans, there really isn't a second side to them. You start a colony on Eladeen during the game, and the AI has people there (at least in my game). You pick a leader on Karara and get a settlement, then Sloane even shows up on the Nexus at the end of the game. These are missions during the game, not ongoing, overarching themes. If there is a next game, will these things carry over into it? Where did Cora, Peebee, Liam stand on the these issues. Did they care one way or the other. Could you talk to any of them about it like you could Mordin about the Genophage, Vivienne about the circle or rogue mages. That's really my point.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 20:04:47 GMT
Krogan vs Nexus? Outcasts vs Nexus? The Roekaar? Did you miss those? The Roekaar are an enemy, I don't see how they even apply. What conflict is there other than they want to kill all non-angarans, there really isn't a second side to them. You start a colony on Eladeen during the game, and the AI has people there (at least in my game). You pick a leader on Karara and get a settlement, then Sloane even shows up on the Nexus at the end of the game. These are missions during the game, not ongoing, overarching themes. If there is a next game, will these things carry over into it? Where did Cora, Peebee, Liam stand on the these issues. Did they care one way or the other. Could you talk to any of them about it like you could Mordin about the Genophage, Vivienne about the circle or rogue mages. That's really my point. Uhm, you can either take the wind out of the sails of the Roekaar or harden their isolationism in your confrontation with Akksul. The overarching theme is that ther eis no united faction in Andromeda in any of the presented nations. Kett are divided, Angara are divided, Humans are divided even the Exiles are divided.
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Post by jackdaniel on Aug 10, 2017 20:14:27 GMT
Krogan vs Nexus? Outcasts vs Nexus? The Roekaar? Did you miss those? Also, the Kett vs Angara, as well as Angara search for own identity and a bigger philosophical issue of accepting an act of creation. We also deal with the Scourge phenomenon that we have to access as benign or malign on the accumulating body of information. And the AI/Free will issue brought the table by the Ancient Angara AI and Knight and her resistance group and SAM.
MEA is no different than any other BioWARE game in that it does a medley of philosophical themes. I am sure so does the Witcher.
I think its difference of being front and center vs being in the a background. There are just too few things in the background for the Andromeda world to feel deep. ME had genophage, geth, turian/human war, human demand for council seat/backlash, terminus systems, cerbrus, space corporation etc ... and that's stuff in addition to the front and center issue of fight geth/saren. In very beginning of the game, I have thought that the mutiny, the other arcs, and maybe potential civil war on the nexus would serve that purpose, but they just get resolved and explained away without taking full advantage of.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2017 20:24:14 GMT
Also, the Kett vs Angara, as well as Angara search for own identity and a bigger philosophical issue of accepting an act of creation. We also deal with the Scourge phenomenon that we have to access as benign or malign on the accumulating body of information. And the AI/Free will issue brought the table by the Ancient Angara AI and Knight and her resistance group and SAM.
MEA is no different than any other BioWARE game in that it does a medley of philosophical themes. I am sure so does the Witcher.
I think its difference of being front and center vs being in the a background. There are just too few things in the background for the Andromeda world to feel deep. ME had genophage, geth, turian/human war, human demand for council seat/backlash, terminus systems, cerbrus, space corporation etc ... and that's stuff in addition to the front and center issue of fight geth/saren. In very beginning of the game, I have thought that the mutiny, the other arcs, and maybe potential civil war on the nexus would serve that purpose, but they just get resolved and explained away without taking full advantage of. The recovery of each Arc was a big deal, front and centre, and linked with the crew. We dealt with the fallout of the uprising, not the uprising itself. Ryder is born into AI faction, and can link to the Exile faction through forming a quasi-marital union. Or s/he can do the same with Angara faction. The internecine struggle is continuously present against the background of the Kett unilateral attack and the unknowable creator entity that is Jaardan. I understand that being involved into the power struggle at the Nexus would have been interesting, and so would have been the ability to work for either Faction, possibly leaving the Pathfinder status to Dad-Ryder and becoming his enemy etc, but focused on the conflict with the Helius species rather than the pro-krogan or anti-Krogan...
Anyways, I found the setting interesting.
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