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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2021 23:42:28 GMT
God, Book 10/Crossroads of Twilight was a struggle. For me it was made all the worse given things finally felt like they were moving again in book 9. When I finished book 10 I didn't think I'd pick the series back up again. Only Sandersons involvement reeled me back in.
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Post by Hier0phant on Nov 21, 2021 23:47:11 GMT
All that contrasted by jordan taking an entire chapter to describe the furniture in a room in later books.-- Hier0phant Tom Clancy wrote like that. Especially in RAINBOW SIX. He would take four full pages to describe Operational Strategy that could have been summed up in half a page, max. I like the games, I was interested in the story and characters....But I couldn't finish R:Six because of that overdone extraneous detail that was nothing but filler to hit a page quota or some benchmark he or his publisher/editor had set....perhaps. Or maybe it really was just his style. (shrugs). It was definitely Clancey's style but i think for R6 he padded pages. "Rand slew the first trolloc with Drunken Monkey Rethinks His Life, intercercepted 2nd trolloc's overhead sword swing with Epileptic Eagle then ended it's life with Rampaging Whale Carried By The Wind."  Those are so much better than the actual names of the forms. All that contrasted by jordan taking an entire chapter to describe the furniture in a room in later books. Ugh...and the different shades of yellow or green a particular dress was... God, Book 10/Crossroads of Twilight was a struggle. And most of book 8/A Path of Daggers, come to think of it. Heaven help you if you forgot what a sword form looked like. You had to go all the way back to the book's glossary which can kill the mood. I'll be honest Crossroads of Twilight took me a year because i lost the will to read multiple times and sometimes it was on the same page. I thought the first chapter of Steven Erikson's Midnight Tides was bad (Took me one week, but everything after was a rollercoaster ride) until i remembered Crossroads.
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Post by dragontartare on Nov 21, 2021 23:54:50 GMT
I watched the first episode again, and I think the pacing is both rushed and too slow at the same time. They left out a lot of the little clues that made it very obvious in the first book which of the young people was the Dragon Reborn, and I wonder if they did that on purpose to maintain some mystery for the TV audience. Any non-readers feel like they know who it is? Clues like Tam's sword, Tam's fevered confession, the fact that Rand is the only tall pale redhead in a town full of people with darker coloring. They seem to have purposely diluted that physical difference by stuffing actors of all kinds of ethnicities in Emond's Field instead of picking one and sticking with it. Like they really don't want viewers to realize Rand is different.
I actually thought the aielman reference to Rand might come up when Thom and Mat pulled down the aielman's body to bury him, but alas. I’ve only watched the first episode so far, but there were enough minor and major changes from the book that I kept on getting taken out of the drama wondering ‘why have they changed that backstory, why has she got so many piercings, why have we got all these additional scenes but skipped iconic story beats etc?’ Individually nit-picky, but taken as a whole it can feel quite dissonant from the book. I can kind of understand that. I get similarly pulled out of fantasy stories when the actresses all have very clean clothing that is inappropriate for the weather, plus instagram-perfect makeup and sleek hair. I'm pleased that they aren't taking that route with WoT so far. I also wondered why she had so many piercings that look like she got them at Hot Topic, though. Quick question for the book readers. (It's a pretty big spoiler.) Can the dark sisters lie? I can't remember if they were still bound by that or not.
You forgot your spoiler tag! Better go fix it  Sometimes he would do these troll Q&A for fans on the biggest fan site for his books; dragonmount. Were you actually a member of the forums there? I wonder if we interacted back then. Ugh...and the different shades of yellow or green a particular dress was... And all the braid tugging.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 0:44:59 GMT
God, Book 10/Crossroads of Twilight was a struggle. For me it was made all the worse given things finally felt like they were moving again in book 9. When I finished book 10 I didn't think I'd pick the series back up again. Only Sandersons involvement reeled me back in. So you didn't read Knife of Dreams until later on? I actually thought it was one of the stronger books - maybe even the best since The Fires of Heaven. I'd never heard of Sanderson, prior to him being tapped to finish the books. He did a good job, in what can charitably have been described as an impossible situation, but the difference in style was very obvious.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 0:46:46 GMT
I'll be honest Crossroads of Twilight took me a year because i lost the will to read multiple times and sometimes it was on the same page. Despite re-reading the series several times, I only read CoT - fully - once. It was just...not fun. And a major let down after the whirlwind finish to Winters Heart.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 0:50:10 GMT
You forgot your spoiler tag! Better go fix it   Nothing wrong with a spoiler tag pyramid every once in a while. Were you actually a member of the forums there? I wonder if we interacted back then. I....can't remember. I don't think I had an account. If I did, I certainly wasn't very active. I mainly just lurked there - and occasionally at theoryland.com - for the nerd-outs and the fact that Jason from Dragonmount seemed to have a degree of 'insider access' (as evidenced by Jordan having a blog there). And all the braid tugging.  And all the sniffing.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2021 1:27:58 GMT
For me it was made all the worse given things finally felt like they were moving again in book 9. When I finished book 10 I didn't think I'd pick the series back up again. Only Sandersons involvement reeled me back in. So you didn't read Knife of Dreams until later on? I actually thought it was one of the stronger books - maybe even the best since The Fires of Heaven. I'd never heard of Sanderson, prior to him being tapped to finish the books. He did a good job, in what can charitably have been described as an impossible situation, but the difference in style was very obvious. Yup, didn't read Knife of Dreams. My old roommate and I were big fans of the series originally so he did, I got a condensed version from him IIRC but mostly forgot about it.
I was a fan of Sandersons before he got the nod. I didn't actually want him to do it, that was a ship long sunk to me. I wanted him to continue to work on his own Cosmere. I'd fallen in love with his Mistborn series. Er, and Warbreaker I think as well. (Can't remember the timing exactly.) That said I knew it'd get him a magnitude of order more recognition to complete Jordan's work which in turn could help is own projects later on.
I agree Sanderson's style is very apparent. IIRC he acknowledged it at the time in an interview as not wanting to poorly copy Jordan's voice. (Or something to that effect, very much IIRC.)
***
Given we have Foundation, WoT, GoT, LotR, and even a bloody reboot of B5, maybe we'll get something of high quality in the Cosmere. Back when I was on one of his fan forums there was lots of chatter about something but I never heard anything come of it.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 2:34:15 GMT
I agree Sanderson's style is very apparent. IIRC he acknowledged it at the time in an interview as not wanting to poorly copy Jordan's voice. (Or something to that effect, very much IIRC.) Undoubtedly the right call, as well, despite some jarring moments. A poor imitation wouldn't have served anyone well.
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Post by Gwydden on Nov 22, 2021 16:15:51 GMT
I watched the first episode again, and I think the pacing is both rushed and too slow at the same time. They left out a lot of the little clues that made it very obvious in the first book which of the young people was the Dragon Reborn, and I wonder if they did that on purpose to maintain some mystery for the TV audience. Any non-readers feel like they know who it is? The ambiguity is very much intentional on the showrunners' part. I also wonder whether it actually worked for people who didn't read the book. It may be my foreknowledge at work, but Rand still feels more like a protagonist in the show than Mat or Perrin, though Egwene does manage to compete for narrative attention. Notice that Egwene and Rand are introduced first, each with their own scene, while Mat and Perrin first appear together with the rest of the main cast.
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Post by pressedcat on Nov 22, 2021 17:03:17 GMT
It will be interesting to see how they deal with the balance of POV in the series going forward.
I listened to the audio books about a year ago and the disparity in the amount read by Michael Kramer vs Kate Reading really underlined who the major protagonists were in EotW.
With 5 prospects for the role of Dragon, does the balance of POVs continue to be more egalitarian?
I also wonder how much signing Rosamund Pike as headline actor early on has affected the narrative. Moraine appears to be one of, if not the prime protagonist in the first episode rather than the mysterious, vaguely threatening character from the book.
I still haven’t managed to get past the first episode, so a lot of these speculations may have already been cleared up…
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 20:04:55 GMT
I think the ambiguity is definitely intentional, as you say. It may be my foreknowledge at work, but Rand still feels more like a protagonist in the show than Mat or Perrin, though Egwene does manage to compete for narrative attention. Notice that Egwene and Rand are introduced first, each with their own scene, while Mat and Perrin first appear together with the rest of the main cast. Agreed - the prophecy in the books; born of a Maiden wed to no man - made it pretty clear, but since they didn't specifically say that in the show, they might have decided that for their purposes, Moiraine doesn't know. And Egwene becomes pretty important narratively if the loose character arcs from the books are being kept intact. Finished ep 3 last night; Trolloc blood in your sacred pool seems like it might be a problem. Poor Rand is going to have a very warped impression of women. Egwene wants to leave him behind to become an Aes Sedai. A barmaid he had a long, flirty chat with tried to kill him. If he keeps having trust abusing interactions with women - *Alanna Mosvani intensifies* - it might make it difficult for him to have the stable and conventional relationship with a woman that he craves... 
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Post by q5tyhj on Nov 22, 2021 20:31:56 GMT
Oh boy... Hate to be debbie-downer because I do love WoT and was hopeful for the show but... That was bad. Like, real bad.  I guess the score seemed really good? And the myrddraal looked pretty cool? Other than that... just... woof.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 20:37:54 GMT
Oh boy... Hate to be debbie-downer because I do love WoT and was hopeful for the show but... That was bad. Like, real bad.  I guess the score seemed really good? And the myrddraal looked pretty cool? Other than that... just... woof. Did you get an YA Novel adaptation vibe? Because I initially did not like the first episode, but by the end I was liking it.
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Post by q5tyhj on Nov 22, 2021 20:47:05 GMT
Oh boy... Hate to be debbie-downer because I do love WoT and was hopeful for the show but... That was bad. Like, real bad.  I guess the score seemed really good? And the myrddraal looked pretty cool? Other than that... just... woof. Did you get an YA Novel adaptation vibe? Because I initially did not like the first episode, but by the end I was liking it. Yeah I only watched the first episode. Had to force myself to watch that much. Felt like a crappy, cheesy, b-movie level adaptation, only with a monster budget for top-notch production value and computer effects and everything so it looked really nice and shiny even though it was just low-quality crap. Just really disappointing. Made me die inside a little bit, it was so bad. I was always skeptical (but still naively hopeful) about an adaptation- seems like a really hard series to successfully adapt, so much of the important stuff in the books is going to be really hard to visually represent on screen (channeling and weaves and strength in the force and everything), and like someone else said upthread its just a completely different type of fantasy than, say, Game of Thrones, and one that isn't as well-suited for TV or film. But I felt like it was still possible that it COULD be done well, they just had to nail the writing and the tone and the casting. But they most definitely did NOT nail it, at least not in the first episode. Basically the exact opposite of nailing it.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 22, 2021 20:51:00 GMT
Did you get an YA Novel adaptation vibe? Because I initially did not like the first episode, but by the end I was liking it. Yeah I only watched the first episode. Had to force myself to watch that much. Felt like a crappy, cheesy, b-movie level adaptation, only with a monster budget for top-notch production value and computer effects and everything so it looked really nice and shiny even though it was just low-quality crap. Just really disappointing. Made me die inside a little bit, it was so bad. I was always skeptical (but still naively hopeful) about an adaptation- seems like a really hard series to successfully adapt, so much of the important stuff in the books is going to be really hard to visually represent on screen (channeling and weaves and strength in the force and everything), and like someone else said upthread its just a completely different type of fantasy than, say, Game of Thrones, and one that isn't as well-suited for TV or film. But I felt like it was still possible that it COULD be done well, they just had to nail the writing and the tone and the casting. But they most definitely did NOT nail it, at least not in the first episode. Basically the exact opposite of nailing it. Fair. As I said, the first half of ep1 left me with a sinking feeling; for basically everything you just outlined. It improved towards the end (I really liked the Trolloc fight, myself) and the 2nd was a step up. The 3rd stepped up again, in my view (although - if you ended ep1 thinking it was all the way bad, then you're likely to have a different view). I'd already decided to treat it as 'inspired by' the books, rather than 'adapted from'. Once I made that distinction in my head, enjoying what was onscreen became easier. And you get the fun game of marrying up events on the show with how they did or did not unfold in the books.
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Post by pressedcat on Nov 22, 2021 21:27:20 GMT
Oh boy... Hate to be debbie-downer because I do love WoT and was hopeful for the show but... That was bad. Like, real bad.  I guess the score seemed really good? And the myrddraal looked pretty cool? Other than that... just... woof. Sounds like you’re having pretty much the same issues with Ep1 as I had. How much do you think is down to the differences between story/sets/actors in the book and series being a distraction, and how much the programme just not being up to snuff for you? I know I’ve got some major issues with the former, and wonder whether they are colouring my overall opinion of the show.
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Post by pressedcat on Nov 22, 2021 23:28:47 GMT
I finally got round to watching episode 1 a second time, this time with someone not so familiar with the story. Pleased to say I enjoyed it more this time round.
On my first viewing I kept on spotting all the things they got ‘wrong’ with the story; this time I was able to appreciate some of the things they got right.
I’m still not totally at peace with all the story alterations, but I’m at least more keen to watch more of the show.
In short, if you’re a long time fan of the series and were put off by all the changes in Ep1, it might be worth giving it a re-watch a few days later before giving up on the show entirely.
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Post by q5tyhj on Nov 22, 2021 23:44:37 GMT
Yeah I only watched the first episode. Had to force myself to watch that much. Felt like a crappy, cheesy, b-movie level adaptation, only with a monster budget for top-notch production value and computer effects and everything so it looked really nice and shiny even though it was just low-quality crap. Just really disappointing. Made me die inside a little bit, it was so bad. I was always skeptical (but still naively hopeful) about an adaptation- seems like a really hard series to successfully adapt, so much of the important stuff in the books is going to be really hard to visually represent on screen (channeling and weaves and strength in the force and everything), and like someone else said upthread its just a completely different type of fantasy than, say, Game of Thrones, and one that isn't as well-suited for TV or film. But I felt like it was still possible that it COULD be done well, they just had to nail the writing and the tone and the casting. But they most definitely did NOT nail it, at least not in the first episode. Basically the exact opposite of nailing it. Fair. As I said, the first half of ep1 left me with a sinking feeling; for basically everything you just outlined. It improved towards the end (I really liked the Trolloc fight, myself) and the 2nd was a step up. The 3rd stepped up again, in my view (although - if you ended ep1 thinking it was all the way bad, then you're likely to have a different view). I'd already decided to treat it as 'inspired by' the books, rather than 'adapted from'. Once I made that distinction in my head, enjoying what was onscreen became easier. And you get the fun game of marrying up events on the show with how they did or did not unfold in the books. I guess I'll have to force myself to watch a couple more episodes just to feel like I gave it a fair shot (I'm seeing a lot of people saying it got much better in the 2nd and 3rd episodes), but... woof. That first episode was NOT a good start.
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Post by q5tyhj on Nov 22, 2021 23:49:10 GMT
Oh boy... Hate to be debbie-downer because I do love WoT and was hopeful for the show but... That was bad. Like, real bad.  I guess the score seemed really good? And the myrddraal looked pretty cool? Other than that... just... woof. Sounds like you’re having pretty much the same issues with Ep1 as I had. How much do you think is down to the differences between story/sets/actors in the book and series being a distraction, and how much the programme just not being up to snuff for you? I know I’ve got some major issues with the former, and wonder whether they are colouring my overall opinion of the show. I expect a lot of changes for any book -> TV/film adaptation, and especially for a monster of a story like WoT, so I try to give a fair amount of leeway on that. And it wasn't really any changes to the source material that bothered me- I'm fine with Perrin having a wife, with giving Mat a bunch of family drama, and so on, at least in principle. It just felt to me like it was just suffering from poor writing, casting, acting, and set/costume/etc. decisions and other sort of basic things. I felt like I was cringing at every other line of dialogue or something in every single scene. Like I said above, I feel like this is a really tough story to adapt, so they have a really fine line to walk to make this a successful adaptation.. and, at least in episode 1, I felt like they they just fell on their face instead.
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Post by skekSil on Nov 23, 2021 1:14:22 GMT
The ambiguity is very much intentional on the showrunners' part. I also wonder whether it actually worked for people who didn't read the book. As a person who never even heard of a book before I think the Chosen One is: Hayden Christensen look-alike
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 23, 2021 1:25:10 GMT
I watched the first episode again, and I think the pacing is both rushed and too slow at the same time. They left out a lot of the little clues that made it very obvious in the first book which of the young people was the Dragon Reborn, and I wonder if they did that on purpose to maintain some mystery for the TV audience. Any non-readers feel like they know who it is? The ambiguity is very much intentional on the showrunners' part. I also wonder whether it actually worked for people who didn't read the book. It may be my foreknowledge at work, but Rand still feels more like a protagonist in the show than Mat or Perrin, though Egwene does manage to compete for narrative attention. Notice that Egwene and Rand are introduced first, each with their own scene, while Mat and Perrin first appear together with the rest of the main cast. I mean, this is the thumbnail they use for the show over at amazon prime video:  Not much ambiguity left on who the protagonists are after that one. 
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Post by dragontartare on Nov 23, 2021 3:31:08 GMT
Here is a review by a reader and a non-reader. They both enjoyed it, though some of their comments mirrored the ones here.
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Post by AnDromedary on Nov 23, 2021 23:20:31 GMT
Here is a review by a reader and a non-reader. They both enjoyed it, though some of their comments mirrored the ones here. "Harry Potter but earlier." Oh boy! If that's the impression from someone who hasn't read the books, that's ... not good.
Otherwise, the dude who read the books makes some good points, especially how some of the changes (Mat for example) make sense since you cannot get into the heads of the characters as much as in the books. Solid video.
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Post by dragontartare on Nov 24, 2021 0:32:09 GMT
"Harry Potter but earlier." Oh boy! If that's the impression from someone who hasn't read the books, that's ... not good.  Yeah, I thought that was an odd impression to get, but Amanda tends toward sarcasm in most of her videos, so I don't think she meant it literally.
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Post by Energizer Bunny 211 on Nov 24, 2021 16:10:10 GMT
Like Peanut once said, "polish a turd, it's still a turd."
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