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Post by straykat on Sept 24, 2016 7:03:00 GMT
I think any kind of Warden can be justified. Humans, dwarves, elves. Even the Dalish, with their Keeper culture, aren't necessarily great Liberators. They've been known to hunt down their own Keepers and abhor Abominations as much as anyone.
Then you have mages themselves, like Morrigan.. who do it out of disgust. And she's the furthest from Chantry rules as you can get.
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Post by oyabun on Sept 24, 2016 17:29:29 GMT
In DAI after that she stab Abelas at his back.l without any kind of empathy. Oooooooo. Never seen that because both my Quizs took Solas and Morrigan advice. I think Dorian, Cole, and Blackwall have tagged along otherwise and maybe only Blackwall is against the elven respect path. I seriously wouldn't trust Morrigan after she stabbed an ancient elf either. Does Solas say anything about this? In this scenario Solas is really angry because he understood that Morrigan clearly did not cared at all for the assassination she just stood there for the well without any kind of empaty and that's why Solas in this scenario goes on a rant on her and say that she can't be trusted. Dorian tbh is the one which has the most aggressive reaction here i think he wanted to interrogate Abelas in order to avoid to use the well but Morrigan killed him.
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Post by oyabun on Sept 24, 2016 17:32:54 GMT
I think any kind of Warden can be justified. Then you have mages themselves, like Morrigan.. who do it out of disgust. And she's the furthest from Chantry rules as you can get. I do think that's kind of a stupid reason to kill Someone... There are better reasons to want to annul the circle ,however after you kill all the abominations there i think there is no more reason to annul the circle.
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Post by secretrare on Sept 24, 2016 17:42:22 GMT
I think any kind of Warden can be justified. Humans, dwarves, elves. Even the Dalish, with their Keeper culture, aren't necessarily great Liberators. They've been known to hunt down their own Keepers and abhor Abominations as much as anyone. Then you have mages themselves, like Morrigan.. who do it out of disgust. And she's the furthest from Chantry rules as you can get. I think that's true too. Origins allows you to play many grades of morality and many roleplaying choices.
You can still play a good warden and annul the circle. You can choose to believe the circle is there to protect the mages and the citizens. And then choose to help Gregor in eliminating the danger inside the circle. And still be a good moral warden and roleplay that you are deeply sadened by killing Wynne and all the mages and mages turned but you are a warden and you did what was needed.
I have a hard time killing Wynne, Petra and the children so I included the choice to annul the circle in my evil playthrough where I did everything I couldn't do in other playthrough in this one pt- I agree with you, choosing to annul the circle is not neccessarily an evil or bad choice.
This is an exaggeration,you brought relativism to an unsustainable point in your thesis. Let's not pretend that kill blameless survivors including the children in the name of a non required duty is morally good because is not. There is a strong rationale to say that mages are more useful than templars in this circumstances since the templars abilities are not particularly effective against the darkspawns. Is not even a choice of choosing between templars or mages but a choice between templars and mages or just templars,since only if the circle is not annulled the templars are free to remain at their usuale duties.
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Post by straykat on Sept 24, 2016 19:07:36 GMT
I think any kind of Warden can be justified. Then you have mages themselves, like Morrigan.. who do it out of disgust. And she's the furthest from Chantry rules as you can get. I do think that's kind of a stupid reason to kill Someone... There are better reasons to want to annul the circle ,however after you kill all the abominations there i think there is no more reason to annul the circle. Well, I'm not defending it. Morrigan is an awful person. She also wants you to sacrifice city elves in a blood rite for a mere +1 Con. I'm just saying it can be done and make sense from a literary perspective. Not justified.
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Post by mousestalker on Sept 24, 2016 19:28:18 GMT
I do think that's kind of a stupid reason to kill Someone... There are better reasons to want to annul the circle ,however after you kill all the abominations there i think there is no more reason to annul the circle. Well, I'm not defending it. Morrigan is an awful person. She also wants you to sacrifice city elves in a blood rite for a mere +1 Con. Not directed at you, but my initial thought after reading was "What if Caladrius threw in a free puppy as well? Would that make it worthwhile? What about a tote bag?"
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Post by straykat on Sept 24, 2016 19:37:53 GMT
Well, I'm not defending it. Morrigan is an awful person. She also wants you to sacrifice city elves in a blood rite for a mere +1 Con. Not directed at you, but my initial thought after reading was "What if Caladrius threw in a free puppy as well? Would that make it worthwhile? What about a tote bag?" I'd fear what the tote bag was made out of.
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Post by Voxr on Sept 24, 2016 20:33:28 GMT
I did it once when I was going for a mentally unstable character (aka Edgelord Mary Sue). Probably wont do it again. Honestly I don't necessarily feel too bad about considering my opinion of Mages shifted from staunchly loyal to more or less apathetic after the next two games, though that's for another thread.
But yeah...it's a thing.
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Post by melbella on Sept 24, 2016 22:29:45 GMT
I don't think I ever purposely annulled the Circle. I did, however, take Morrigan with me to the Circle in my first game and ended up killing Wynne. I know I've also failed to save Irving (unintentionally) before understanding how the Litany of Adralla worked. Not sure that answers your question other than to say: player noobishness?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2016 23:26:16 GMT
I don't think I ever purposely annulled the Circle. I did, however, take Morrigan with me to the Circle in my first game and ended up killing Wynne. I know I've also failed to save Irving (unintentionally) before understanding how the Litany of Adralla worked. Not sure that answers your question other than to say: player noobishness? I always tell Morrigan to shut up when she starts saying we need to kill the mages. Also, when I first played I didn't understand the Litany of Adralla and was wondering why everyone said the mages were dead.
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Post by puckishrogue94 on Oct 20, 2016 5:31:09 GMT
I admit it's a pretty heartless thing to do in hindsight but at the time all you hear from the Knight Commander is how the circle is overrun with abominations. You don't know for a fact if any of the mages still alive aren't possessed.
If you're playing a pragmatic warden who thinks able-bodied templars would be of more use to you than potentially possessed and therefore unreliable mages you'd annul the circle to get the templars' help, and maybe feel like you're doing the right thing in preventing any potential abominations being left alive. Or your character could be a chantry zealot who believes they're doing the Maker's work in annuling the circle. Or your character could just straight up hate magic and not trust mages offering help with the Blight.
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Post by doflamingodonquijote on Oct 23, 2016 9:34:59 GMT
A warden of whom i don't care.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 23, 2016 20:57:56 GMT
This is an exaggeration,you brought relativism to an unsustainable point in your thesis. Let's not pretend that kill blameless survivors including the children in the name of a non required duty is morally good because is not. There is a strong rationale to say that mages are more useful than templars in this circumstances since the templars abilities are not particularly effective against the darkspawns. Is not even a choice of choosing between templars or mages but a choice between templars and mages or just templars,since only if the circle is not annulled the templars are free to remain at their usuale duties. Well okay, I'm not sure what you are saying in the first sentence. So bear with me, I'll try to put some in spoilers. Its long.
My first post I said I annulled the circle with basically an evil warden. He didn't care about anyone or anything. He hated the circle and was glad to kill them all. That was the only reason I could think of do annul the circle- for me to have my character do that.
After reading other comments and then StrayCats comment, I thought StrayCat was saying that you can justify annuling the circle using any warden origin not just a mage origin and that you are not necessarily a bad person for doing it. I may be wrong but that thats what I thought he was saying. And I looked back at my first post and though Oh Dear, people will think I was saying mages are evil and could only annul the circle with a mage and that your warden had to, absolutely had to be evil to annul. And that is why my second post.
The dialogue supports a warden trying to do his best, believing that Gregoir is correct, siding with the templars, believing that Wynne is lying, possibly possessed or siding with the demons. the warden can believe he has no choice but to help out and annul the circle - thereby killing Wynne, Petra, the children. Once the Warden is in the tower, that can be supported by what happens, templars and mages possesed by demons just as Gregoir has stated. Cullen supports this also. The Warden can believe he is a good person and morally good.
if you take a moment and look at the dialog: Gregoir to templars: "Do not open doors without my express consent. Is that Clear. Now we wait and pray." Gregoir to Warden: "We are dealing with a very delicate situation, you must leave for your own safety. You will find no allies here. The Templars can spare no men & the mages are indisposed. I will speak frank, the tower is no longer under our control demons stalk these halls. We saw demons hunting mages & templars alike. I realized we could not defeat them & told my men to flee." Warden to Gregoir: "what can I do to help." Gregoir to Warden:"I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements & the right of annulment" Warden to Gregoir: "What good will that do?" Gregoir to Warden: "This situation is dire, there is no alternative, everything in the tower must be destroyed so it can me made safe again." Warden to Gregoir: "You are right the abominations cannot be allowed to leave Gregoir to Warden: "No one could have survived those monstrous creatures. It is painful to hope for surivors & find...nothing" Warden to Gregoir: "If your so sure why wait for the right of annulment?" Gregor to Warden: "only the Grand Cleric can authorize the right of annulment & we must wait. If we enter the tower now we will be massacred. I cannot order my men to their deaths. Denerim must have received our message & it cannot be much longer"
The above sets up the dire and immediate situation of the tower. It is lost, even the mighty templars have no hope. Many people in this world believe mages are a danger and mages must be locked up and watched. Much fear surrounds mages. Mages are kept from the common population. Fear is common. You can role play a Warden who has that fear already and Gregoir has just confirmed the worst. Everything you heard about mages is true, so you think.
enter the tower. you see Wynne fighting a demon. At first it looks as if she kills the demon, but the demon actually sinks into the floor. Thinking of all the fearful things you have heard about mages, you think did Wynne really kill that demon or did she make it look like she did for your benefit?Wynne to Warden:"Its you! No..come no further. Grey Warden or no, I will strike you down where you stand." Warden to Wynne: "Wynne what are you doing here?" Wynne to Warden: "I am a mage of the circle. More importantly why are you here? The templars willnot let just anyone in." Warden to Wynne: I am helping Gregoir resolve the circle difficulties." Wynne to Warden:"Then you do serve the templars as I feared. So they have the right of annulment?" Warden to Wynne: regardless, the circle must be cleaned for the common good." Wynne to Warden:"the common good. How can you claim the moral highground when you propose to slaughter everyone in this tower even these children?" Warden to Wynne: " I will do what must be done." Wynne to Warden:"Your mad if you think I'd let you lay a finger on these children. I will fight you if you won't listen to reason." Warden to Wynne: "The circle must be destroyed for all our sakes" Wynne to Warden: "if you insist on making war on the circle then there isn't anything to discuss. It comes to blows then." Alistair: no stop..you can't just attack her. She's protected the children. She's not the one you should be wary of. I think she is a good person. There's a lot she could help us with." Warden to Alistair: (persuade) or maybe that is just what she wants you to think." Alistair: Your saying she is trying to fool us? I suppose thats possible. You could be right. (sigh) do what you think is best." Warden: The circle annulment is the best thing for everyone" Wynne: "I will stop you or die trying. Above, the Warden is so distrustful of mages, so fearful because all he has learned. because of what is told and seen about the mages. He believes Wynne is compromised, lying and possesed, a danger to the tower. The Warden believes Gregoir, afterall he is head of the templars, he should know best what is happening and even he won't go in the tower or send his men, he is terrified. Is the Warden an evil person? I don't think so, you can say he thinks he is doing the best thing for the circle, for Ferelden. With the circle annulled, Gregoir can lend a hand to support the Wardens and he does.
I am not saying I believe that is the best outcome as I do not that is why I had to add a backstory not within the game in order to kill Wynne and the children and annul the circle.
I am saying within the game and dialog there is support for a Warden to annul the circle and not be a downright evil, horrible person, elf or dwarf.
To me, the most obvious way to have a "good" PC annul the Circle is through the Human Noble Origin. Your PC is a noble younger sibling. In a world where the eldest child in a noble family is most likely to inherit the family estate, the youngest noble children are likely to go into the Chantry - if they're female - or into the Templars. If your PC was an aspiring Templar, he would be more likely to listen to Greagoire or Cullen rather than Wynne. As to a PC mage, I can't see a mage - whether Loyalist or Libertarian - deciding to slaughter all of his former comrades. Dwarves, I would imagine, would be much more neutral regarding mages since there are no dwarf mages. They wouldn't have all the pre-conceived notions about mages that humans would have. It would depend upon which of the companions influence them the most. (Alistair or Leliana = save the Circle; Morrigan = ) As to elves, I would think a Dalish PC would have a positive view of mages given that the Dalish Keeper is a mage. A City Elf might sympathize with mages as another discriminated group. Alternatively, if you want to do a "bad" PT, you can head canon that your male PC - who's likely in a relationship with Morrigan - has been bewitched by her and will jump at her every bad suggestion: annul the circle, abandon Redcliffe, sacrifice the City Elves, etc. That, at least, would give a "bad" PT some logic.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 24, 2016 2:19:23 GMT
To me, the most obvious way to have a "good" PC annul the Circle is through the Human Noble Origin. Your PC is a noble younger sibling. In a world where the eldest child in a noble family is most likely to inherit the family estate, the youngest noble children are likely to go into the Chantry - if they're female - or into the Templars. If your PC was an aspiring Templar, he would be more likely to listen to Greagoire or Cullen rather than Wynne. As to a PC mage, I can't see a mage - whether Loyalist or Libertarian - deciding to slaughter all of his former comrades. Dwarves, I would imagine, would be much more neutral regarding mages since there are no dwarf mages. They wouldn't have all the pre-conceived notions about mages that humans would have. It would depend upon which of the companions influence them the most. (Alistair or Leliana = save the Circle; Morrigan = ) As to elves, I would think a Dalish PC would have a positive view of mages given that the Dalish Keeper is a mage. A City Elf might sympathize with mages as another discriminated group. Alternatively, if you want to do a "bad" PT, you can head canon that your male PC - who's likely in a relationship with Morrigan - has been bewitched by her and will jump at her every bad suggestion: annul the circle, abandon Redcliffe, sacrifice the City Elves, etc. That, at least, would give a "bad" PT some logic. Hey, those are really good options too! I wish I thought of those roleplay options before - it would have saved a lot of heartache in my playthrough. Have no desire to kill Wynne and the children again!
Your pc noble makes alot of sense especially since the Couslands had a Chantry priest in house and you could rollplay Chantry Priest being a mentor to Cousland and they are close.
Poor Morrigan she gets the blame again! And a City Elf might believe as the Chantry does since the mother or chantry priest was officiating at the wedding.
As for the PC mage that's all I could think of at the time, self-hating, angry at the world, at the circle and Irving and I used a mage only because the skill set made the game easier and faster.
The problem is "Poor Morrigan" brings it on herself! lol Following her every suggestion would give you an "Evil Warden" PT! I imagine as BW saw it, in order to make every choice a real option, you have to have it be supported by at least some companions or at least have them persuadable to a particular choice. In the interest of character consistency, Morrigan ended up being tied to all the "bad" choices. The problem this gives me when playing a "good Warden" (I haven't really done a "bad" PT yet) is that after finding her every suggestion to be downright evil, how am I supposed to accept that her DR suggestion will both save the Warden from the US and end the Blight at the same time? How is the player supposed to know that this child born with the Old God soul will really be an innocuous being and not turn into AD at a later date? When talking about the DR and the child with the OG soul, she refuses to tell you exactly why she wants such a child. And her behavior and attitude during the rest of the game hasn't exactly built up her credibility or created good will. As a result, my last several PTs have ended is the US.
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Post by secretrare on Oct 24, 2016 14:57:17 GMT
This is an exaggeration,you brought relativism to an unsustainable point in your thesis. Let's not pretend that kill blameless survivors including the children in the name of a non required duty is morally good because is not. There is a strong rationale to say that mages are more useful than templars in this circumstances since the templars abilities are not particularly effective against the darkspawns. Is not even a choice of choosing between templars or mages but a choice between templars and mages or just templars,since only if the circle is not annulled the templars are free to remain at their usuale duties. Well okay, I'm not sure what you are saying in the first sentence. So bear with me, I'll try to put some in spoilers. Its long.
My first post I said I annulled the circle with basically an evil warden. He didn't care about anyone or anything. He hated the circle and was glad to kill them all. That was the only reason I could think of do annul the circle- for me to have my character do that.
After reading other comments and then StrayCats comment, I thought StrayCat was saying that you can justify annuling the circle using any warden origin not just a mage origin and that you are not necessarily a bad person for doing it. I may be wrong but that thats what I thought he was saying. And I looked back at my first post and though Oh Dear, people will think I was saying mages are evil and could only annul the circle with a mage and that your warden had to, absolutely had to be evil to annul. And that is why my second post.
The dialogue supports a warden trying to do his best, believing that Gregoir is correct, siding with the templars, believing that Wynne is lying, possibly possessed or siding with the demons. the warden can believe he has no choice but to help out and annul the circle - thereby killing Wynne, Petra, the children. Once the Warden is in the tower, that can be supported by what happens, templars and mages possesed by demons just as Gregoir has stated. Cullen supports this also. The Warden can believe he is a good person and morally good.
if you take a moment and look at the dialog: Gregoir to templars: "Do not open doors without my express consent. Is that Clear. Now we wait and pray." Gregoir to Warden: "We are dealing with a very delicate situation, you must leave for your own safety. You will find no allies here. The Templars can spare no men & the mages are indisposed. I will speak frank, the tower is no longer under our control demons stalk these halls. We saw demons hunting mages & templars alike. I realized we could not defeat them & told my men to flee." Warden to Gregoir: "what can I do to help." Gregoir to Warden:"I have sent word to Denerim, calling for reinforcements & the right of annulment" Warden to Gregoir: "What good will that do?" Gregoir to Warden: "This situation is dire, there is no alternative, everything in the tower must be destroyed so it can me made safe again." Warden to Gregoir: "You are right the abominations cannot be allowed to leave Gregoir to Warden: "No one could have survived those monstrous creatures. It is painful to hope for surivors & find...nothing" Warden to Gregoir: "If your so sure why wait for the right of annulment?" Gregor to Warden: "only the Grand Cleric can authorize the right of annulment & we must wait. If we enter the tower now we will be massacred. I cannot order my men to their deaths. Denerim must have received our message & it cannot be much longer"
The above sets up the dire and immediate situation of the tower. It is lost, even the mighty templars have no hope. Many people in this world believe mages are a danger and mages must be locked up and watched. Much fear surrounds mages. Mages are kept from the common population. Fear is common. You can role play a Warden who has that fear already and Gregoir has just confirmed the worst. Everything you heard about mages is true, so you think.
enter the tower. you see Wynne fighting a demon. At first it looks as if she kills the demon, but the demon actually sinks into the floor. Thinking of all the fearful things you have heard about mages, you think did Wynne really kill that demon or did she make it look like she did for your benefit?Wynne to Warden:"Its you! No..come no further. Grey Warden or no, I will strike you down where you stand." Warden to Wynne: "Wynne what are you doing here?" Wynne to Warden: "I am a mage of the circle. More importantly why are you here? The templars willnot let just anyone in." Warden to Wynne: I am helping Gregoir resolve the circle difficulties." Wynne to Warden:"Then you do serve the templars as I feared. So they have the right of annulment?" Warden to Wynne: regardless, the circle must be cleaned for the common good." Wynne to Warden:"the common good. How can you claim the moral highground when you propose to slaughter everyone in this tower even these children?" Warden to Wynne: " I will do what must be done." Wynne to Warden:"Your mad if you think I'd let you lay a finger on these children. I will fight you if you won't listen to reason." Warden to Wynne: "The circle must be destroyed for all our sakes" Wynne to Warden: "if you insist on making war on the circle then there isn't anything to discuss. It comes to blows then." Alistair: no stop..you can't just attack her. She's protected the children. She's not the one you should be wary of. I think she is a good person. There's a lot she could help us with." Warden to Alistair: (persuade) or maybe that is just what she wants you to think." Alistair: Your saying she is trying to fool us? I suppose thats possible. You could be right. (sigh) do what you think is best." Warden: The circle annulment is the best thing for everyone" Wynne: "I will stop you or die trying. Above, the Warden is so distrustful of mages, so fearful because all he has learned. because of what is told and seen about the mages. He believes Wynne is compromised, lying and possesed, a danger to the tower. The Warden believes Gregoir, afterall he is head of the templars, he should know best what is happening and even he won't go in the tower or send his men, he is terrified. Is the Warden an evil person? I don't think so, you can say he thinks he is doing the best thing for the circle, for Ferelden. With the circle annulled, Gregoir can lend a hand to support the Wardens and he does.
I am not saying I believe that is the best outcome as I do not that is why I had to add a backstory not within the game in order to kill Wynne and the children and annul the circle.
I am saying within the game and dialog there is support for a Warden to annul the circle and not be a downright evil, horrible person, elf or dwarf.
I'm not asking for pretexts or explanations, I have seen enough splitting hair nitpicking to know that someone can ALWAYS come up with something to justify anything. Wanting good though doesn't change the evil nature of certain acts in this case kill everybody out of suspicion without concrete proofs. In the end what it's determine the final judgment of a path is it's outcome and there are no abominations between those mages meaning that those wardens who did not killed them got it right and those who did got it wrong and killed everybody because they judgment of the situation was wrong.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 24, 2016 15:05:38 GMT
If there were demons hiding inside those mages like the warden may claim in some dialogues, it would have been impossible to find the situation so quiet,afterall once an abomination is created it will try to corrupt as many mages as possible .Why an abomination would have kindly waited the warden instead to turn all the other mages there(Wynne included)into fellow abominations?Because this is what abominations actually do, they call other fellow demons so that they can create even more abominations,that's why they are dangerous like a plague for the mages and in fact in every room of the tower where there are demons and abominations you find them in groups and never in single pack.
So an abomination waited several hours maybe days for the warden instead to try to summon other demons of it's kind by using the mages there?There are no demons among those mages because the barrier did not allowed them to enter in the room,that's the more reasonable conclusion anything else isn't an evil choice but it is surely a misjudgement.
-Alistair isn't all that intelligent so of course he is not able to counterpoint the warden on anything in the whole game,you can justify everything with Alistair except Loghain(which isn't even a bad choice,,,on the contrary...)
-Morrigan just want them dead out of spite she doesn't make any argument that revolve around demons or abominations.
-Gregoir did not knew anything about any survivors and in fact he said that he would have trusted only Irving about the situation and Irving(someone who has mopre experience of the warden about the tower,the mages and the current situation think that not all mages became abominations
-Cullenwas clearly in no good shape to reason well.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 24, 2016 15:53:03 GMT
If there were demons hiding inside those mages like the warden may claim in some dialogues, it would have been impossible to find the situation so quiet,afterall once an abomination is created it will try to corrupt as many mages as possible .Why an abomination would have kindly waited the warden instead to turn all the other mages there(Wynne included)into fellow abominations?Because this is what abominations actually do, they call other fellow demons so that they can create even more abominations,that's why they are dangerous like a plague for the mages and in fact in every room of the tower where there are demons and abominations you find them in groups and never in single pack. So an abomination waited several hours maybe days for the warden instead to try to summon other demons of it's kind by using the mages there?There are no demons among those mages because the barrier did not allowed them to enter in the room,that's the more reasonable conclusion anything else isn't an evil choice but it is surely a misjudgement. -Alistair isn't all that intelligent so of course he is not able to counterpoint the warden on anything in the whole game,you can justify everything with Alistair except Loghain(which isn't even a bad choice,,,on the contrary...) -Morrigan just want them dead out of spite she doesn't make any argument that revolve around demons or abominations. -Gregoir did not knew anything about any survivors and in fact he said that he would have trusted only Irving about the situation and Irving(someone who has mopre experience of the warden about the tower,the magse and the current situation think that not all mages became abominations -Cullenwas clearly in no good shape to reason well. One has to keep in mind what does the PC know based on his/her origin. Aside from a PC mage, none of the PCs from other origins are going to be experts on abominations. If they went to Redcliffe first and encountered possessed Connor, they may have some idea of how a possessed person looks or acts. If the PC is a human noble who aspires to be a Templar, he/she may be overzealous in eradicating a perceived threat. The more paranoid or naturally suspicious a PC is, the more likely they are to assume every mage they see is an abomination. As to the companions, Alistair has the right instincts but isn't overly confident in himself and will always defer to the PC (except on Loghain). Only Morrigan would have the knowledge to give good advice on the matter, but she obviously hates Circle Mages period. Since all my PCs have encountered Wynne at Ostagar and had a positive opinion of her, they trust her because she appears normal. (Ironically, she actually does have a spirit in her.)
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Post by oyabun on Oct 24, 2016 16:47:24 GMT
There are some origins that are justified into having more insights about demons and there are others who are not,however the final decision about killing all mages occurs if i'm not mistaken after you meet Cullen and at that point there is even the lithany aquired tp block the blood mages.
-The warden mage should know about demons
-The warden noble can be Rp in whatever way you want,being rised by a noble family can justify to be educated even on demons,you can even enlight Wynne about demons and abominations or you can display ignorance about it with her,in short the origin support both paths.
-The Dalish warden should know somehting about it even if it isn't a mage because the Dalish clans are educated about demons.
The others origins instead,especially the dwarves may be justified into not even knowing the meaning of the word but i doubt a dwarf will care much for those who are not his/her dwarven people.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Oct 24, 2016 17:49:00 GMT
There are some origins that are justified into having more insights about demons and there are others who are not,however the final decision about killing all mages occurs if i'm not mistaken after you meet Cullen and at that point there is even the lithany aquired tp block the blood mages. -The warden mage should know about demons -The warden noble can be Rp in whatever way you want,being rised by a noble family can justify to be educated even on demons,you can even enlight Wynne about demons and abominations or you can display ignorance about it with her,in short the origin support both paths. -The Dalish warden should know somehting about it even if it isn't a mage because the Dalish clans are educated about demons. The others origins instead,especially the dwarves may be justified into not even knowing the meaning of the word but i doubt a dwarf will care much for those who are not his/her dwarven people. I have never annulled the Circle. Can't you make that decision early when you first meet Wynne as well? I agree about the Warden mage; he/she came from the Tower and should know better than to listen to Morrigan or Cullen. Regarding the human noble, the lines that dustyelf posted for a warden who annuls the Circle can be read as reflecting the Warden's knowledge of demons and abominations or that warden's excessive suspicion/caution regarding mages. As to the Dalish, they certainly aren't as suspicious of mages as humans are, but a Dalish rogue or warrior isn't going to be as knowledgeable as his/her keeper. I would say, more likely to give the benefit of the doubt to mages. Dwarves would go into this situation with the least amount experience of any of the races with demons and abominations. I would assume they would listen more to their companions and their inclinations.
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Post by shechinah on Nov 6, 2016 16:47:24 GMT
I want to do this and see how it's so different. So, I crafted a Mage who hated her time in the Circle. But now she's gone soft; she liked Jowan, she doesn't hate Blood Mages, but she does hate Templars. I guess I didn't have enough memory of the situation to have made different mindsets. Maybe a Mage just can't do it? So, who did it and why did their character do it? Was it a heavy paranoia of blood magic? Hating all Magic? How did the Warden feel about murdering the children for the sake of safety? It dosen't have to be any of that. It can be pragmatism. Your Warden cannot be certain which mages were compromised by demons and which were not. Because of this, you annul the Circle because you see the risk of possessed mages especially in these times to be too great. Demons running about in Fereldan could further compromise its faltering stability as well as sabotage your efforts to combat the Blight especially if possesed mages find their way into your army. This is even more so if you're doing this after Redcliffe since then you've seen what a single mage possessed by a demon can do. How your Warden is affected by having to make this decision can be an interesting prospect to roleplay if you decide to.
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Post by secretrare on Nov 6, 2016 21:05:32 GMT
I never saw the decision to be "pragmatic,Gregoir know the circle better than the warden and if he say that everything is good when Uldred is gone he is more credible than the warden.
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Post by shechinah on Nov 6, 2016 21:24:34 GMT
I never saw the decision to be "pragmatic,Gregoir know the circle better than the warden and if he say that everything is good when Uldred is gone he is more credible than the warden. Except he's basing this solely on Irving's testimony before having even made an investigation of the tower or examination of its people. He's actually less credible than the Warden as well as less informed in this because the Warden has actually seen the current situation in the tower firsthand from top to bottom including finding out what happened.
However, there is an option to have Irving and the other mages go into containment pending investigation which I'd forgotten about until I checked the quest on the Wikipedia just now. This is one of the options to gain the support of the Templars and I consider it to be the pragmatic option over the other one.
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Post by secretrare on Nov 6, 2016 21:38:24 GMT
I never saw the decision to be "pragmatic,Gregoir know the circle better than the warden and if he say that everything is good when Uldred is gone he is more credible than the warden. Except he's basing this solely on Irving's testimony before having even made an investigation of the tower or examination of its people. He's actually less credible than the Warden as well as less informed in this because the Warden has actually seen the current situation in the tower firsthand from top to bottom including finding out what happened.
However, there is an option to have Irving and the other mages go into containment pending investigation which I'd forgotten about until I checked the quest on the Wikipedia just now. This is one of the options to gain the support of the Templars and I consider it to be the pragmatic option over the other one.
I meant Irving not Gregoir. Irving believe that there are no more demons inside the survived mages and he was correct, demons can't hide inside unwilling hosts they can only force them and create abominations,templars and senior enchanters are able to understand who is at risk and who is not without the need to push the kill button on everyone.
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Post by deadlydwarf on Nov 7, 2016 3:32:01 GMT
I want to do this and see how it's so different. So, I crafted a Mage who hated her time in the Circle. But now she's gone soft; she liked Jowan, she doesn't hate Blood Mages, but she does hate Templars. I guess I didn't have enough memory of the situation to have made different mindsets. Maybe a Mage just can't do it? So, who did it and why did their character do it? Was it a heavy paranoia of blood magic? Hating all Magic? How did the Warden feel about murdering the children for the sake of safety? It dosen't have to be any of that. It can be pragmatism. Your Warden cannot be certain which mages were compromised by demons and which were not. Because of this, you annul the Circle because you see the risk of possessed mages especially in these times to be too great. Demons running about in Fereldan could further compromise its faltering stability as well as sabotage your efforts to combat the Blight especially if possesed mages find their way into your army. This is even more so if you're doing this after Redcliffe since then you've seen what a single mage possessed by a demon can do. How your Warden is affected by having to make this decision can be an interesting prospect to roleplay if you decide to.
The "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" goes far beyond pragmatism. It's paranoid. The Warden most likely to subscribe to this idea is one who adheres to an extreme interpretation of Andrastianism. To me, that would likely be a human noble. I don't see a mage of any kind doing it. A loyal Circle Mage would trust Irving and Wynne. A libertarian mage would be sympathetic to the blood mages and would certainly not want to kill them all. For dwarves, it's pretty open since they have little contact with mages. It might depend on whether the dwarf Warden is friendly or hostile to Morrigan, the first mage they've gotten to know.
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Post by shechinah on Nov 7, 2016 9:41:08 GMT
It dosen't have to be any of that. It can be pragmatism. Your Warden cannot be certain which mages were compromised by demons and which were not. Because of this, you annul the Circle because you see the risk of possessed mages especially in these times to be too great. Demons running about in Fereldan could further compromise its faltering stability as well as sabotage your efforts to combat the Blight especially if possesed mages find their way into your army. This is even more so if you're doing this after Redcliffe since then you've seen what a single mage possessed by a demon can do. How your Warden is affected by having to make this decision can be an interesting prospect to roleplay if you decide to.
The "kill them all and let the Maker sort them out" goes far beyond pragmatism. It's paranoid. The Warden most likely to subscribe to this idea is one who adheres to an extreme interpretation of Andrastianism. To me, that would likely be a human noble. I don't see a mage of any kind doing it. A loyal Circle Mage would trust Irving and Wynne. A libertarian mage would be sympathetic to the blood mages and would certainly not want to kill them all. For dwarves, it's pretty open since they have little contact with mages. It might depend on whether the dwarf Warden is friendly or hostile to Morrigan, the first mage they've gotten to know. I respectfully disagree with this interpretation. Also, with that no mage of any kind would do it.
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