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Post by XJlock on Aug 29, 2017 0:20:19 GMT
The linear style.
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Post by Duke Cameron on Aug 29, 2017 7:28:51 GMT
Linear
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VanSinn
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by VanSinn on Aug 29, 2017 12:55:32 GMT
I thought DAI struck a good balance between large environments while still keeping things fairly linear, really the only thing I want them to add to all the various regions in the next game is day and night cycles. I apologize in advance if this comes out antagonistic or snarky. Neither is meant. What's the fascination with day/night cycles? In my mind, neither really add much to a story driven RPG experience. If you're looking at environment driven RPG's, like Fallout or TES, then they make sense, but Bioware's never done a game with day/night cycles, and none have suffered for it. I mean, it'd be cool and all to have one, but it really doesn't do much to help drive the story forward, and it's an investment in time and resources I'd rather see placed elsewhere, like better side quest structure and story missions. KotOR had some pretty large "open" zones, similar to ME:A (although ME:A's were larger and emptier, with a few too many "filler for the sake of filler" sidequests) and it was just fine without a day/night cycle. Just an honest question.
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Post by fchopin on Aug 29, 2017 13:30:48 GMT
I thought DAI struck a good balance between large environments while still keeping things fairly linear, really the only thing I want them to add to all the various regions in the next game is day and night cycles. I apologize in advance if this comes out antagonistic or snarky. Neither is meant. What's the fascination with day/night cycles? In my mind, neither really add much to a story driven RPG experience. If you're looking at environment driven RPG's, like Fallout or TES, then they make sense, but Bioware's never done a game with day/night cycles, and none have suffered for it. I mean, it'd be cool and all to have one, but it really doesn't do much to help drive the story forward, and it's an investment in time and resources I'd rather see placed elsewhere, like better side quest structure and story missions. KotOR had some pretty large "open" zones, similar to ME:A (although ME:A's were larger and emptier, with a few too many "filler for the sake of filler" sidequests) and it was just fine without a day/night cycle. Just an honest question. There was day/night cycles for DA2 but it is best done for Skyrim type games.
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Post by phoray on Aug 29, 2017 23:14:36 GMT
If they could make a main quest happen in every area given in DAI, it would be the only "balance" between the two I could whole heartedly accept.
For Example: The Western Approach has the Erimond Sequence as well as the attack on Adamant. Yet there is a whole rest of the map to "explore", which I like for immersion's sake.
If I can skip entire maps because the Main Plot doesn't require a quest there, then it can bugger off.
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Post by Warrick on Aug 29, 2017 23:38:15 GMT
I voted Other. My preferred setting is one without farming.
I think the idea behind needing to farm a resource was to tie the sidequests to the main plot to make them more engaging: You need 50 sovereigns for the deep roads expedition. Here are 20 quests giving 5 sovereigns each, go explore. The Inquisition needs to be influential to be received by the templars, so go get influence, and so on. But it accomplished the opposite.
The problem is that it feels like work, not like you want to go somewhere because it's intriguing. When it becomes a job, it kills interest. Who wants to be an employee? You're an adventurer. You have adventures, not review meetings.
Even sidequests that could be interesting are made duller by having them give +1 Power. Take the cult formed over a rift in the Hinterlands for instance. That's an interesting setup. But I just went there because the map said there was another rift, not because of a story reason that compelled me to see what the cultists were up to.
As a contrast, two sidequests from DA2 that I find excellent come to mind: Blackpowder promise and Shepherding wolves (the Ketojan ones). They are tied to the plot by means of story, not the resource mechanic. They introduce Sister Petrice and the Arishok.
Not every sidequest needs to be tied to the plot. They could be important for the character background or personality instead. They are an opportunity to define your character more, so it feels yours. These are the moral and companion quests, like Major Kyle from Mass Effect or the little favours companions ask you in SWTOR. Finally, some side quests are just fun, like the debate or the theatrical play in Jade Empire.
Give us story reasons to do stuff. Give us stories.
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Post by majesticjazz on Aug 30, 2017 1:33:25 GMT
I like open worlds but the linear elements of DA:O and DA2 allowed for the creation of difficult encounters not just boss fights. When Inquisition was released it kind of ruined the tactical side of combat. The amount of open area that was given made choke points very rare. Gameplay aside, if they do go open world I better see dynamic weather AND day/night cycles. Wont happen. Bioware seems allergic to dynamic weather and day/night cycles.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 30, 2017 2:32:27 GMT
You make it sound as if I'm not supposed to give my own opinion on the matter? Not at all. Just maybe don't make your opinion the very first thing people read in the introductory post? Why not start with how you ended: "As someone who's played the main Dragon Age games, I wanted to gauge what the community feels Bioware should do with the setting of Dragon Age 4. While there are already rumors, and possibly even statements, saying that the game will again be open world, what do YOU believe the games setting style should be?" That would have been a great and perfectly neutral intro. Then start another paragraph with, "I voted on X ..." or "In my opinion, ..." clearly signaling the end of the poll introduction and the start of your own comments. Or put your opinion in the second post. Or even wait until a few other people have voted and posted, then post your opinion. Lot's of ways to have your opinion and start the poll unbiased. I don't agree, because all games have that burden. Linear games have that burden too. Just because you reduce the spatial traversal options of the player doesn't mean that the narrative pace automatically writes itself, that's just silly. And linear layout may also create pacing problems, such as the boredom of backtracking. Mistakenly, in my opinion. It's scapegoating, from what I believe is a correlation/causation fallacy. Now if you want to say that open world style, particularly large open worlds, increases the burden of density of interest for side-quests and random encounters, I'd wholeheartedly agree. But that doesn't have anything to with the narrative or the pace of the narrative. In fact, no open world with a good narrative is all open anyway, some of the quest segments may be spatially linear, when reducing the traversal choices for the player serves the narrative, just as lighting, music and environmental audio serve the narrative. But just as you don't want bombastic music, full of horns and drums, blasting in your ears when you are just walking through a peaceful village, so too do you not want to have linear spatial traversal forced on you when the more natural and immersive option is open world. And to head off any confusion, having segments of a quest be open world may also serve the narrative. Okay, fair enough. My bad. I admit that after that intro I'm surprised you voted open world. I don't think I can be blamed too much for jumping to a conclusion, given that you stacked the deck against open world with your intro. I know you intended to just state you opinion, but I'm here to tell you, it's at best a widely held opinion that's contradicted by a growing body of counter-examples. How many examples is it going to take to convince everyone that maybe it's not open world that's the problem, just Bioware's execution of open world? I use TW3 and HZD as examples, because if open world narrative was so bloody hard, why are they so good? Just how far can the "they are just exceptions" argument go before the logic becomes questionable? BTW, add Nier:Automata as another example. Fantastic story pace (if you don't voluntarily pause the story to do silly stuff like fishing) in a modestly sized open world.
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Post by biggydx on Aug 30, 2017 14:09:35 GMT
BTW, add Nier:Automata as another example. Fantastic story pace (if you don't voluntarily pause the story to do silly stuff like fishing) in a modestly sized open world. Nier: Automata fits in that weird Linear/Open-World category, but I guess I'll go with Open. I'll alter the op, but just don't assume I had it out for open world games. I'm not saying good stories can't be told within them, but if you have a large landscape, it's harder to fill it with meaningful content. Yes, having a team to tell great stories is important, but it's also something that many studios - who have tried open world - still don't live up to. Often times, I find its the side-quests that take the short end of the stick.
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Post by duskwanderer on Aug 31, 2017 2:48:45 GMT
It's not like Inquisition's open worlds weren't lovely. They were quite beautiful, varied in style and design, and a real treat to trek through. But those types of worlds do not lend themselves to deep quests. Triggers are much harder to set because people can come into a place from different angles.
BioWARE's strength has always been storytelling and characters. And those are better suited for a more linear style of gameplay. The best parts of Inquisition weren't the open world parts, it was the missions. I loved the creepiness of Therinfall Redoubt, the feel of scaling Adamant. While I was charmed by the land near Redcliffe, I had little emotional investment.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Aug 31, 2017 3:36:40 GMT
Open world ala TW3, beautiful and full of life. DAI was quite empty, vast and with a slow ass horse. (and too much deserts)
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Post by Ean'Harel on Aug 31, 2017 8:10:11 GMT
How many examples is it going to take to convince everyone that maybe it's not open world that's the problem, just Bioware's execution of open world? I use TW3 and HZD as examples, because if open world narrative was so bloody hard, why are they so good? Just how far can the "they are just exceptions" argument go before the logic becomes questionable? BTW, add Nier:Automata as another example. Fantastic story pace (if you don't voluntarily pause the story to do silly stuff like fishing) in a modestly sized open world. Thank you for putting this into words that actually make sense! I only quoted the last bit, but I mean it for the whole post. I don't think open world is an issue at all. Bioware's treatment of side-quest in DA:I is less than ideal, however. Countless letters found on dead people, leading to a stash of hidden goods, made me feel like a grave robber. Main quests in the area with a weak signal -- eg Fairbanks, who instead of telling you all about the bad guys, sends you out to read *even more* codex entries. I only realised how relevant to the main story this questline was on my second playthrough. No camera cuts, meaning I couldn't see what the quest-givers looked like, cutting some emotional investment off. And -- but that's more an immersion thing -- no way to talk to random strangers, ask them about the weather, the price of fish and things like that. Chit-chat. They talk as I run past, but I can't interact with them. It's frustrating. Or, that place where you find the dead slaves in the Western Approach. It was gut-wrenching, when you took the time to read the codex entries; but again, I would've wished to hear one of the slaves' dying words, rather than / as well as finding signs of enslavement on their corpses. It's a pity because they clearly put some thought into some of these side-quests. Say, one that sticks to mind for some reason -- the widow's ring (maybe because of how irate she sounds). She mentions that the templars mistook her husband's shovel for a staff. Walk out the house, and a few steps away, you find a half-buried chest with a shovel next to it. Lovely detail, and there are plenty in the same vein. Unfortunately it all feels disjointed. I think I get it -- why it is blamed on open-world. Disjointed feels random, disorganised... maybe out of order, so open-world is an easy culprit. But frankly, I bet if we had DA:I's side quests in a linear form, it would feel the same.
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fchopin
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Post by fchopin on Aug 31, 2017 8:30:11 GMT
Ok, i changed my option to Open World. It is time Bioware learned how to do open world or get out of the RPG games.
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∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 31, 2017 14:53:13 GMT
I'd like to see Bioware do fewer but more fleshed out and engaging open world areas.
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tatarforas
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by tatarforas on Sept 1, 2017 2:03:35 GMT
I thought DAI struck a good balance between large environments while still keeping things fairly linear, really the only thing I want them to add to all the various regions in the next game is day and night cycles. I apologize in advance if this comes out antagonistic or snarky. Neither is meant. What's the fascination with day/night cycles? In my mind, neither really add much to a story driven RPG experience. If you're looking at environment driven RPG's, like Fallout or TES, then they make sense, but Bioware's never done a game with day/night cycles, and none have suffered for it. I mean, it'd be cool and all to have one, but it really doesn't do much to help drive the story forward, and it's an investment in time and resources I'd rather see placed elsewhere, like better side quest structure and story missions. KotOR had some pretty large "open" zones, similar to ME:A (although ME:A's were larger and emptier, with a few too many "filler for the sake of filler" sidequests) and it was just fine without a day/night cycle. Just an honest question. No real fascination, it's just that if they're going to continue with the open world trend they might as well add day/night cycles at this point, plus it helps with immersion imo. If they don't add them because of time constraints or resources I'd be fine with that, that being said I doubt adding something like day/night cycles would take up enough time and resources that it's addition somehow negatively effects the quality of the side quests or main story missions.
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Post by Blaze on Sept 1, 2017 4:32:49 GMT
well i love exploring so sort of open world, or rather areas with large space (since andromeda and inquisition are not rally open world) would be nice, of course not the way it was handled in inquisition, but jaws of hakkon and andromeda showed that bioware learned to be better at it, so yeah something gives us the ability to explore but doesn't feel like a chore.
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Post by jadedragon on Sept 2, 2017 16:35:14 GMT
I think Bioware needs to go back to it's own roots with the Origins style but they can still add elements from 2 and Inquisition also. Thing is if your going to give us a open world like how Inquisition was then I feel like the side quest and some quest should be more how they was pre Inquisition. Fetch quest is not how you explore a map your Zone quest or Secondary quest should detail out each map setting with plot events that has our explore most of the map.
I do think in DA4 cities and settlements do need to go back to a origins concept with some DA2 detail. But when we explore outside the city or town limits that's when it should feel more open world like when we are in the wild. DAI did a good job on some maps establishing the wildlife of each location but it completely butchered it's concepts of exploring a city or town. More memorable landmarks and locations within cities.
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shaqfu
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Post by shaqfu on Sept 3, 2017 7:00:39 GMT
Probably in a minority here but I liked how The Old Republic used its planets and open areas. Bunch of mini hub areas in each to get quests and a lot of the side missions followed the main path so you never felt like you had to run too far out of the way to do the other content. You could also quick travel or take speeders to get from hub to hub faster if you didn't wanna hike it back on foot. All side missions in the initial stuff were also fully voice acted and used dialogue wheels, and even had some choices to make. Yet each zone also had interesting little areas you could go off and explore to find extra lore or hidden datacrons/collection type stuff. I'd love that game to get an offline version if the mmo ever gets shut down...
So maybe something like that adapted with more quests that feel a little more fresh then the mmo style of fetchy stuff.
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Post by biggydx on Sept 6, 2017 0:37:14 GMT
Kinda surprised there are a lot of people still receptive about the next game being Open-world again.
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Post by Lazarillo on Sept 6, 2017 3:04:49 GMT
Depends a lot on how it's presented in the first place. I vote to have it more "open", but I also should note that I would like it if the plot were also more "open". I think part of the reason the format didn't work so well in Inquisition is because the story took a linear format, even if the world did not. However, in DA4, I want a game to explore, rather than a game to go kill the guy to save the world again.
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Post by rapscallioness on Sept 7, 2017 10:19:23 GMT
I vote dao structure
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Post by eriador117 on Sept 7, 2017 10:59:17 GMT
I think I'd like an open world, but with the settings more connected to the story parts. And that we don't have cut-off bits for the story. I mean for example, you do the story mission at Adamant Fortress but it is a self-contained part and you can't go back to Adamant. It makes the story seem choppy. Whereas if you have to discover Adamant Fortress as you're exploring the Western Approach etc., it seems more connected to the main plots. And maybe you had to search the Western Approach for materials to build battering rams before you got access to the fortress, things like that which connect and that you could go back to the fortress later on if you wanted. Or take it over as a keep.
But at this stage I'd just be happy to know there will even be a DA4 game.
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Post by Felya87 on Sept 7, 2017 11:27:50 GMT
I would like to see the open world used in a more linear way as in Nier:Automata. Linear areas one can visit again, but without (or with few) load screen. Basically having the open world being an instrument and not a feature in itself. Open world is fun if is done in a way that is fun to explore. Bethesda's game exploration is fun because one can find so many different stories and adventure just traveling, and there are so many things to do who let the player roleplay ignoring the main quest. In BioWare's games I would not really miss the open world: most of the time I founf myself ignoring certain missions because I haven't the patience to go to point A to point B if there is no way to have a fast travel. Too little gain for too little story/fun. The dlc I hated the most was Jaws of Hakkon for that.
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Post by tacsear on Sept 7, 2017 12:01:02 GMT
Ok, i changed my option to Open World. It is time Bioware learned how to do open world or get out of the RPG games. It is time Bioware learned how to do open world or go back to the old ways. As much as I love DAI, its open world is ok overall and we know how mea turned out to be. DA4 will be strike 3 for open worlds if it is not good.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 7, 2017 13:13:14 GMT
I thought DAI struck a good balance between large environments while still keeping things fairly linear, really the only thing I want them to add to all the various regions in the next game is day and night cycles. I apologize in advance if this comes out antagonistic or snarky. Neither is meant. What's the fascination with day/night cycles? In my mind, neither really add much to a story driven RPG experience. If you're looking at environment driven RPG's, like Fallout or TES, then they make sense, but Bioware's never done a game with day/night cycles, and none have suffered for it. I mean, it'd be cool and all to have one, but it really doesn't do much to help drive the story forward, and it's an investment in time and resources I'd rather see placed elsewhere, like better side quest structure and story missions. KotOR had some pretty large "open" zones, similar to ME:A (although ME:A's were larger and emptier, with a few too many "filler for the sake of filler" sidequests) and it was just fine without a day/night cycle. Just an honest question. They did have actual day night cycles along with the passage of time in Baldur's Gate games. It impacted when you see certain merchants, what monsters were roaming around, and how fast you fatigued and needed to camp to rest. Some dialogues also only happened when it was a day time or nighttime. Actually, the first time I played a game that did not have time passage, was NWN2, and it felt strange, like how come it is always a sunset whenever I go to this area? I don't miss it, but I kindda see how others would care. My responce does not change, linear and hub games are my preference. My biggest problem with Inquisition is convoluted pathfinding and too much pointless and boring walking around. I would love to see the return of smaller campfire areas or talking to your crew whenever.
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