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Post by biggydx on Aug 27, 2017 1:39:07 GMT
Open-world games present many new opportunities for exploration and character development. It also serves as a medium to better represent the various settings and lore of a particular franchise. From rolling hills, to massive cities, fiendish hellscapes, to vast deserts. Over recent years, the genre has exploded in popularity, with many developers trying their hand at making a good open world game. Notable giants that have excelled at - or have redefined - the genre include games such as The Witcher 3, Horizon: Zero Dawn, Red Dead Redemption, and TES: Skyrim (among others). These games have created not only an engrossing world to be in, but have also brought great stories and gameplay into the mix.
On the other end of the spectrum, there are open-world games that have either disappointed gamers, or have been flat out terrible. Games such as No Mans Sky and Mass Effect Andromeda, which were touted with much promise, failed to live up to player expectations (rightly or wrongly), while others have gone down in history as flat out terrible (ex. Two Worlds). From a narrative standpoint, a sizable number of open world games have failed to capture the interests of the player. Story missions and sidequests are often the most heavily criticized narrative elements within open world games, with gamers often stating they hate the "fetch quest" style of exploration that some open world games give the player. With the genre demanding a large playspace, developers need to be able to fill that playspace with meaningful content; a task several studios have failed to live up to.
Dragon Age: Inquisition being open world was meant to open new doors for the player in exploring the world of Thedas. While the game certainly had imaginative landscapes, upon release, one of the most polarizing aspects of its narrative design were the sidequests; which didn't leave a memorable impression for many players. The open world that was designed was also criticized for being "MMO-lite" by a number of players and reviewers, as well as having too many fetch quests. Though this doesn't mean that the game turned out bad (it actually won Game of the Year), the way the quests were handled did touch a nerve with fans of the series.
With the next Dragon Age game (DA4) hinted at being open world, questions are arising as to whether the game will be able to improve upon its various quests and narrative design. There are - certainly - many successful open world games to draw inspiration from, and Bioware (within the Dragon Age series) has at least gotten a taste for what players are expecting from their open world games now. Still, there is concern - among the fanbase - regarding Bioware's move into the open world genre. Some fans want the series to return to its semi-linear roots, in fear that the narrative quality of the game will suffer due to being open world, or that the game may simply lose their interest by having too much to do that isn't meaningful.
As someone who's played the main Dragon Age games, I wanted to gauge what the community feels Bioware should do with the setting of Dragon Age 4. Elaborating on my opinion of this, I personally liked Dragon Age: Inquisition. While I did think the side-quests needed more cinematic quality, and far less fetch-quests, the world was designed well enough to bring me in. I also liked the combat as well, something I know also polarized many fans of the series. If the next game is to be open-world, I hope they get it right this time.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 27, 2017 1:57:50 GMT
DA2, DAO
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Post by cmoe on Aug 27, 2017 3:06:17 GMT
I wouldn't mind something similar to DAI but with a fewer hubs. I would love it if all of the maps were like the Frostback Basin in JOH. Though I'm not sure I see that happening. If they were to go back to the DA2 style without the recycled maps, I wouldn't mind that either.
As OP said, I think they have already decided they are sticking with open world.
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Post by Hrungr on Aug 27, 2017 3:28:22 GMT
Personally, I prefer DAI's approach for size and variety of environments. I thought it struck the right balance between being large enough to provide opportunities for exploration, overall more believable, and yet small enough so as not be overwhelming. But yes, I'd definitely want to see them improve on the things you do (more robust secondary quests, less resource grinding, fewer fetch quests, and hopefully more fun non-combat things to do) in these environments. And from the sound of things, it is an area they plan to focus on in the next game. And with the improvements in environment fidelity (photogrammetry, improvements in lighting, dynamic weather, etc.), I want those playgrounds! Especially if they can also incorporate day/night & seasonal changes, and having our actions make large, visible changes to these regions, which can then make return visits to these areas something to look forward to.
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Post by kotoreffect3 on Aug 27, 2017 4:53:29 GMT
I voted linear but I think what DAI did could work if the quest structure and presentation is improved. Also if they find a way to make the environments more organic it would help.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 27, 2017 5:01:58 GMT
I'm ok with all of them as long as they're done right. Who could actually refuse a good open world like TW3, HZD or Frostback Basin, and we all know linear also works really well from other games, so yes if it is good I'll take it. Although this discussion seems pointless since we know they're going with open world again. Lets hope it will be a good one.
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Post by naughtynomad on Aug 27, 2017 7:10:11 GMT
Open world is actually amazing when done right. The problem with it is that 1) it takes a ton of time and resources to build, and 2) BioWare kinda sucks at it. Both DAI and MEA showed they are unskilled in developing these open worlds.
You have to fill these open world zones with mystery, exciting quests that you sort of fall into. Bethesda makes amazing open world zones. It's so fun to just set out in any direction in Skyrim and know you will stumble upon an interesting quest or beast or old ruins. BioWare should stick with the more linear areas if they can't do the open world right.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Aug 27, 2017 7:49:13 GMT
I enjoyed the open world aspect in DAI, but arguably they spread themselves a bit thinly. Some of the areas were amazing (Hinterlands, Emerald Graves, Frostback Basin) but others felt a bit lacking (when it comes to deserts, I wish they'd just given us the Western Approach and stopped there). I'd like to see more smaller areas like towns and cities a la Kirkwall (Val Royeaux was a huge missed opportunity, especially since the tiny bit they actually made was beautiful).
The key really, I think, is to make side quests feel like they actually matter. In DA2 it wasn't really obvious what were side quests and what were main quests, but in DAI, if you're not in a cutscene, straining to hear the dialogue, you get the feeling what you're about to do won't be important.
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Post by tacsear on Aug 27, 2017 7:58:32 GMT
I enjoyed the open world aspect in DAI, but arguably they spread themselves a bit thinly. Some of the areas were amazing (Hinterlands, Emerald Graves, Frostback Basin) but others felt a bit lacking (when it comes to deserts, I wish they'd just given us the Western Approach and stopped there). I'd like to see more smaller areas like towns and cities a la Kirkwall (Val Royeaux was a huge missed opportunity, especially since the tiny bit they actually made was beautiful). The key really, I think, is to make side quests feel like they actually matter. In DA2 it wasn't really obvious what were side quests and what were main quests, but in DAI, if you're not in a cutscene, straining to hear the dialogue, you get the feeling what you're about to do won't be important. Yes. One of the best things about DA2 is that I still cannot tell which are side quests and which are main quests, they blend in perfectly.
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Post by Nimlowyn on Aug 27, 2017 8:12:20 GMT
While I enjoy linear, I'm hoping they'll improve on open world for the next installment.
I loved DAI, but one of the problems I ran into was justifying my travel to optional zones -- travel that would take weeks upon weeks as well as resources -- when I felt the narrative was consistently pulling me in other directions. Like, why would I go here, when it would make sense to go there? Pacing, basically. I mean, I managed, but I found it to be a bit tricky.
I'm hoping in future installments to have the ability to explore and have it, as consistently as possible, make sense within the context of the narrative. I imagine this is a real design challenge. I was disappointed in MEA overall, but this is one area I think they actually did very well, so I'm encouraged that they're heading in the right direction in that regard.
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Post by rahavan on Aug 27, 2017 10:46:25 GMT
I like open worlds but the linear elements of DA:O and DA2 allowed for the creation of difficult encounters not just boss fights. When Inquisition was released it kind of ruined the tactical side of combat. The amount of open area that was given made choke points very rare. Gameplay aside, if they do go open world I better see dynamic weather AND day/night cycles.
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Post by simit on Aug 27, 2017 12:26:54 GMT
Im easy with whatever they go for, it's the content they fill it with that matters
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Post by VanSinn on Aug 27, 2017 12:42:57 GMT
I voted open world. MEA had it's flaws, and a bit too much "side quest bloat" where too many minor assignments vied for the player's attention over larger, meatier side content, but I think MEA improved upon the whole deal from DA:I's side quests. Most of the ones in MEA fit within the theme of the game, even many of the "fetch" quests.
ME:A still needed a good bit of "tightening" in that regard, but it was (in my opinion) a step in the right direction. Hopefully, DA4 will improve further on the formula, and give us the same awesome environments of DA:I, but improved, and with more relevant, believable side quests and content that doesn't just feel like filler.
I'm ok with filler content, so long as it doesn't feel slapped on just to be side content. The much lauded TW3 had lots of this kind of "filler for the sake of filler" content as well. Many players tend to overlook that since the larger side quests were very well done. If DA4 reduces the level of filler, or at least makes it relevant, and gives a good balance of hefty side content to compliment the main quests, I'll be a happy guy.
That being said, back to Thedas to finally finish my DA:I run!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 16:26:51 GMT
Maybe if you gave example of a large hub word from a BioWARE game? If it is like Jade Empire/Baldur's Gate 2/KOTOR1/2 I would actually prefer it to the Linear structure. Like, there is space to go around stuff and some side-quests, but there is no OW like in Inquisition.
Overall my feeling is: NOT SANDBOX, PLEASE! and NOT INQUISITION PLEASE!
I am fine with every other game I played, DAO/DA2, BG, SWTOR, JADE, KOTOR, ANDROMEDA. They all were fine. It's just Inquisition is terrible, and I don;t have time in my life or patience for a sandbox game, they'll just bore me to death. I need to know what happen next, not to guess at the right way for my character to unlock Door 8456. Anything locked out annoys me. I want to get an assignmemnt as a art of an interesting story, go kill stuff, maybe resolve a few problems along the way, and get on with the next assignment in the story. No locked out stuff, no puzzles, so things that require you to figure out that if you pick something somewhere, and combine it with something else maybe you should be able to... unlock a door or whatever.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Aug 27, 2017 16:44:49 GMT
However, a caveat to such a system is that it also presents issues when it comes to narrative pacing. In terms of quest structure, it can also potentially lead to quests feeling mundane or lacking any meaningful impact; due to open worlds often employing many quests in one map. Maybe when doing a poll, you don't introduce it with a comment that might bias the poll? Your statement is nonsense on the face of it. The Witcher 3 and Horizon:Zero Dawn are both uncompromising open world games with excellent narrative and quest structures. The quests were also of excellent quality and just the right density (distribution over space). Conversely, Dishonored 2, a linear world game, had spotty and often poor quest structure -- though, in all fairness. the time overlay quest was awesome. Don't confuse poor execution with the style of setting chosen. Blaming open world for poor quest structure makes no more sense than blaming customizable character creation for poor quest structure, since TW3 and HZD do not have customizable characters. Correlation is not necessarily causation. (I might have to put all this in my signature to save me the effort of having to retype the same counter-arguments every time open worlds are scapegoated.)
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Post by Walter Black on Aug 27, 2017 17:21:48 GMT
If the devs can create interesting and diverse environments that give the player meaningful activities, I'm all for it. If it's just to pad the run time and show off their graphics with nothing to actually do, then I would prefer smaller and more structured maps.
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Post by wright1978 on Aug 27, 2017 17:31:23 GMT
I hope they reign in the open world aspect as i think by its very nature it isn't the best for story focused games.
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Post by House Targaryen on Aug 27, 2017 17:49:10 GMT
Nice big open world. After being spoiled by Skyrim, Fallout 3&4, Inquisition, MEA, etc I have a hard time playing limited, linear closed games.
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Post by Frost on Aug 27, 2017 18:17:16 GMT
I voted for linear. I think this works best for story-focused games. They tried open world for DAI and MEA, and I think it took away from both games. For DAI it seemed like they had almost no side quest budget, which I don't think is a good trade off to get open world. If they had a much larger budget, open world might work. But, if not, I don't think it is worth it to cut from other areas.
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Post by simit on Aug 27, 2017 20:14:11 GMT
I voted for linear. I think this works best for story-focused games. They tried open world for DAI and MEA, and I think it took away from both games. For DAI it seemed like they had almost no side quest budget, which I don't think is a good trade off to get open world. If they had a much larger budget, open world might work. But, if not, I don't think it is worth it to cut from other areas. Nothing was took away they just did it wrong, i like DA:I , heck i got over 30pt on p4 an 15 on xbone, but it wont stop me saying another wasted opportunity. They coulda cut a couple of the zones an integrated the main quest into the rest an have all side quest relate to something like scouting the area, gathering resistance an yeah unlocking power specific to that area to then unlock the areas main quest IE they coulda had the warden keep integrated into western approach, maybe took darkspawn out to earn some local trust, have your resident warden Stroud/alistair, watever, scout try convince others, meh im no dev or writer you get the picture, my point is BioWare seems to lack imagination just now, or maybe to much an not enough NO going about
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Post by Sylvius the Mad on Aug 27, 2017 21:00:52 GMT
I hate that you lumped together DAO with DA2 and the ME trilogy.
I understand why you did, and I can't really disagree, but DAO plays quite differently from the others. In ME2 and ME3 in particular, there was often exactly one path through a level. DAO zones like the Korcari Wilds or the Deep Roads offered multiple paths, not to mention the optional branches in Fort Drakon or the truly inspired level design in the Fade (which was basically linear, but didn't feel like it).
Also, ME1 had the open exploration of the uncharted worlds, which are more open than anything else BioWare has ever done.
The pure linear design of ME2 and ME3 (and much of DA2) is horrific. But a game built like the more web-like areas in DAO would be terrific.
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Post by dragontartare on Aug 27, 2017 21:04:52 GMT
Considering how BW's open world games have turned out, I would prefer a structure more like DAO or DA2, where most areas remain accessible outside of story missions (unlike MET, where many mission areas become inaccessible). However, I prefer the MET approach over the sprawling, filler-saturated open worlds of DAI and MEA, where fetch quests appear in my quest log just because I happen to talk to the wrong NPC (contrasted with TW3, where I can choose to accept minor quests or not after reading descriptions on notice boards, avoiding all that crud filling up my quest journal).
That said, I don't think open world is the problem in and of itself. As many have said, the problem with open world in DAI and MEA is BW's execution of it. I know some people say MEA is an improvement over DAI because the quests are more relevant to the protagonist's role, but I honestly feel that's only technically true, because Ryder's job description is so broad. A quest that says, "go scan these plants that are scattered all over the goddamn map because we need ingredients for beer," is just as boring to me as a quest that says, "go collect these random objects so we can make tents for our soldiers." Put quests like this on the Chantry board, so that I can read a description, see the promised reward, and then choose to accept or reject it. And if I choose to accept it, but then decide I'd rather not bother, let me clear (or maybe just hide) the quest from my journal.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 27, 2017 21:42:32 GMT
While I voted for DAO maps, I'm glad DAI is also getting a lot of votes. Either works for me. I give slight preference to linear because I'm a directionally challenged turd whom if devs add 3 trees into the area will manage to get lost amongst them. Spending too much time finding how to get to places.
I guess it depends on my task with DAI. If I'm wandering its all good. If I want something done fast ugh lost more lost or just far.
One big thing though is that I do not want DA4 maps to be bigger than DAI.
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Post by Catilina on Aug 27, 2017 21:47:23 GMT
Considering how BW's open world games have turned out, I would prefer a structure more like DAO or DA2, where most areas remain accessible outside of story missions (unlike MET, where many mission areas become inaccessible). However, I prefer the MET approach over the sprawling, filler-saturated open worlds of DAI and MEA, where fetch quests appear in my quest log just because I happen to talk to the wrong NPC (contrasted with TW3, where I can choose to accept minor quests or not after reading descriptions on notice boards, avoiding all that crud filling up my quest journal). That said, I don't think open world is the problem in and of itself. As many have said, the problem with open world in DAI and MEA is BW's execution of it. I know some people say MEA is an improvement over DAI because the quests are more relevant to the protagonist's role, but I honestly feel that's only technically true, because Ryder's job description is so broad. A quest that says, "go scan these plants that are scattered all over the goddamn map because we need ingredients for beer," is just as boring to me as a quest that says, "go collect these random objects so we can make tents for our soldiers." Put quests like this on the Chantry board, so that I can read a description, see the promised reward, and then choose to accept or reject it. And if I choose to accept it, but then decide I'd rather not bother, let me clear (or maybe just hide) the quest from my journal. Exactly so. The DAI's fetch/gathering quests were not only boring but even illogical. The MEA's similar quests were only boring. Such an improvement!
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Post by biggydx on Aug 28, 2017 0:40:47 GMT
However, a caveat to such a system is that it also presents issues when it comes to narrative pacing. In terms of quest structure, it can also potentially lead to quests feeling mundane or lacking any meaningful impact; due to open worlds often employing many quests in one map. Maybe when doing a poll, you don't introduce it with a comment that might bias the poll? Your statement is nonsense on the face of it. The Witcher 3 and Horizon:Zero Dawn are both uncompromising open world games with excellent narrative and quest structures. The quests were also of excellent quality and just the right density (distribution over space). Conversely, Dishonored 2, a linear world game, had spotty and often poor quest structure -- though, in all fairness. the time overlay quest was awesome. Don't confuse poor execution with the style of setting chosen. Blaming open world for poor quest structure makes no more sense than blaming customizable character creation for poor quest structure, since TW3 and HZD do not have customizable characters. Correlation is not necessarily causation. (I might have to put all this in my signature to save me the effort of having to retype the same counter-arguments every time open worlds are scapegoated.)You say that You make it sound as if I'm not supposed to give my own opinion on the matter? Open-world games do come with the burden of having to find a way to keep the narrative tempo going. The sheer non-linear nature of open world exploration and story telling is structured as such, and it's often one of the biggest complaints - and concerns - that are brought up whenever games decide to go the route of open-world. Also, I like how you mention The Witcher 3 to me, even when I specifically mentioned the game when it came how good its narrative turned out. The Witcher 3 and Horizon: Zero Dawn, games with great narrative and story elements, are hard to come by within the open-world genre. It's one of the reasons why The Witcher 3 is often referred to by reviewers as the "new gold-standard" for open world RPG's. You're also putting words in my mouth when it comes to my general opinion of the open world genre. Never did I say it couldn't have a great story, just that it's harder to do in general. I've played numerous open world games prior to this, and it's my favorite genre. Lastly, I voted for open-world in this very poll. Maybe you should add, "Also, don't jump to conclusions" in that signature of yours. I put this poll up because I had a general feeling that a majority of the community wanted the next Dragon Age game to be linear BECAUSE they're worried it's affecting Biowares ability to tell a good story. If Bioware can pull off a great story, while also being open world, more power to them.
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