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Post by alanc9 on Sept 8, 2017 20:08:32 GMT
I'm sure you did find that DAIs core story is more interesting. It's multidimensionally better Skyrim is unassuming. So if you played Skyrim for a story the game will tell you, then it was Mission Imposible from the start. No way you would appreciate it in this game because yeah, not much to appreciate. It's perfectly fine if it's not your cup of tea and all that. That you can do is acknowledge and try to understand why the game is acclaimed among people who like openworld games. Well, for clarity, I'm not talking about the main plots. I though Skyrim's main plot worked OK, actually. This isn't really how DAI does things in the first place. There are hardly any random forts or structures in the game. This is more like ME:A, particularly Voeld, Kadara, and the Roekaar camps on Havarl. (Some of the time this is an artifact of the quest design for the structures; if you haven't triggered the quest yet, you won't find anything. Not great design) I'd parse this list differently. Killing everyone via stealth or via summoned creatures or via whatever is just a tactical choice; you make those in DAI or ME:A too, although you pick from a different menu of slaughter options. Toying with a final enemy works the same in any game. Stealing everything, or nothing, is something that Bio games have never been good at including, though. True. In DA:I there's usually only one story going on in each zone, two at most, and everybody's part of it. So poking around the map doesn't get you any other story. Fewer in ME:A since the same stories are on multiple worlds.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 8, 2017 20:18:36 GMT
Acquiring resources (including followers, agents, troops, horses, craftsmen, weapons, armor, crafting supplies) for the Inquisition is a no-brainer for me. You started with nothing, and need to build and supply an organization. Even so, you can send agents to collect resources via the War Table if you so choose. Any player who doesn't understand the need to build the Inquisition's power is reminded of that fact by the War Table mechanics. Putting flowers on a grave is something I might do if I happen to be in the area. You're dealing with a citizenry who are frightened and have had their world turned upside-down, and you need to build influence (power). Boosting their morale and gaining their favor with simple acts of kindness is also a no-brainer for me, but it's entirely optional content. The problem with resource collection is that the scale doesn't make much sense. For a big organization, any elfroot or whatever the Inquisitor could personally collect will be a rounding error. In general, RPGs have trouble integrating the PC and party into larger organizations in a sensible way, since this would blow up typical loot mechanics. You guys may be getting hung up on the definition of "cutscene." DAI zones were often pretty weak on conversation of any kind.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 20:45:01 GMT
Acquiring resources (including followers, agents, troops, horses, craftsmen, weapons, armor, crafting supplies) for the Inquisition is a no-brainer for me. You started with nothing, and need to build and supply an organization. Even so, you can send agents to collect resources via the War Table if you so choose. Any player who doesn't understand the need to build the Inquisition's power is reminded of that fact by the War Table mechanics. Putting flowers on a grave is something I might do if I happen to be in the area. You're dealing with a citizenry who are frightened and have had their world turned upside-down, and you need to build influence (power). Boosting their morale and gaining their favor with simple acts of kindness is also a no-brainer for me, but it's entirely optional content. The problem with resource collection is that the scale doesn't make much sense. For a big organization, any elfroot or whatever the Inquisitor could personally collect will be a rounding error. In general, RPGs have trouble integrating the PC and party into larger organizations in a sensible way, since this would blow up typical loot mechanics. In order to form that conclusion, you have to make some assumptions about 1) how much of a resource the organization as a whole needs or could make use of, 2) how much of the resource is supplied by each node or unit collected, and 3) how much is collected by other members of said organization. Generally, the PC's inventory of resources used to craft consumables (potions, poisons) or gear (armor, weapons) apply only to the inner circle, those followers who may accompany the PC. But I admit that I regard complaints about collecting resources to be incredibly petty, at least in DAI*. It's entirely optional, there are other ways to obtain them, and they can be easily picked up en route to other objectives. It's not like the game expects (or even encourages) you to go out elfroot hunting. * It's an entirely different deal in something like ME2 - there are serious consequences to not upgrading the Normandy, you need resources to buy any upgrades, and the only way to acquire them is planet scanning, which serves no other purpose. I'm not - and based on the context and content, I don't believe that steamshipman is, either.
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 11, 2017 12:17:15 GMT
I have no idea where this is coming from or how it relates to the discussion at all. Am I that bad at expressing my point? Let's revisit. In response to some post I stated that Skyrim did its open world 'sandboxy', was good at it and for this was acclaimed as good open world game. In contrast with DAI, where open world was (in my view) so bad that actually harmed the game. You responded that (in your view) DAIs open world was good enough and offered good roleplaying possibilities, demonstrating it with example. I tried to make a point that your example only showed your own ability to cope with the lack of actual content and to fill the (imo, massive) gaps between story and openworld gamedesign. The more I know about your ways to play the game, the more I think that... you know that rhetoric what goes around on this forum about Bioware/fan community relationships: "With this fanbase Bioware can't win"? Well, with you as a player Bioware can't lose, it seems. I have impression actually not impression, your described experience shows exactly that: all you need is setting, well established role and bunch of diverse companions, and that's enough for you to roleplay the hell out of vast areas filled with "gather us x meat we are starving so much" and "please, please bring this ring to my sad wife on the other side of the map" quests. It's fine and all, but you can't attribute results of your imagination/rationalization capability to creative genius of whoever did the open world of DAI. Lack of content 'without handholding' doesn't translates to depth. There wasn't some aliens who abducted people, put idea "DAI is a singleplayer MMO" idea into their heads and returned them to their homes. This idea has some basis. You know what this basis is? Quality of side activity in DAI lets me easily imagine circumstances in which they could be written: "Hey, we are out of time. Here, these are screenshots and map of the region and here is very general idea what's this region is about. You know what the Inquisitor is so that's enough. You have one night to write quests for this region and remember to make them as easy as possible to program into game! Scripts no, point and click yes!" Cutscenes interactive? I suppose that depends on the cutscene - some of them do bring up the dialogue wheel or offer interrupts. But some cutscenes provide no interactivity whatsoever, and are there only to be watched. Most combat doesn't happen in cutscenes, either, yet you seem to recognize combat as a way of interacting with the world. Dialogue with NPCs is also direct interaction with the world, whether or not it occurs in cutscenes. Wrapping dialogue in cutscenes does not change the content of the conversation, only how it is presented. alanc9 actually did get it. And it almost looks like you actively trying not to. Interaction is what makes videogames different from other forms of media. It means that player gives input to consumable product and receive results based on this input. And so happened that in all modern Bioware games all player input for conversations was made in cutscenes. If I remember correctly, dialogues with NPCs outside of cutscenes almost never had player input in them. So to understand whiners better, instead of "where are the cutscenes" you'd better read "where is our input, in previous games we had this in abundace?" Of course, in this case you'll have to deal with actual critics instead of " one of those "Waaah! DAI actually had some ambient conversations instead of cutscenes, cutscenes everywhere!" whines".
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 11, 2017 12:17:31 GMT
Well, for clarity, I'm not talking about the main plots. I though Skyrim's main plot worked OK, actually. Ah, it's mostly me. Like with Bioware, I'm bitter towards Bethesda too. Among Skyrim and all their Fallout games, Skyrim story is the best and most immerseve. I just thought that after New Vegas the will upgrade their storytelling, but they prefered to idiotize it to facepalm degree in FO4, god im angry! You are right, it isn't (I didn't play MEA yet, just to note). But it is kinda the point and the problem we are speaking about. Without random forts or structures there is no actual exploration, and without exploration open world doesn't make much sense. Open world is characterized with points of interest. And those points have requirements to actually be interesting. And in DAI there is no actual points of interest outside of weak quests and puzzles, about which I answered previously. You see some ruins and they are not that far from you? You are interested, you go there and find nothing but same enemies, and possibly chest, uninteresting collectible (Ubisoft much?) or lame letter. All of this has no relation to the said ruins so all you did is visited point of no interest It's just a tactical choice in DAI (and both trilogies for that matter), but not in Skyrim. Tactical means searching for effective way to win. If you'll fight in Skyrim in most effective way, you will probably bored quickly. Did you play any jrpgs? DAI combat is similar to jrpgs in the way, that combat mode is entirely different thing from non-combat time. It's a separate thing, entirely focused on defeating the enemy. In Skyrim it isn't. You can characterize your combat. Can roleplay, right in the fighting, as brutal barbarian or cowardly mage or as cowardly barbarian and brutal mage. Or as mad mathematician which is a stretch of course but the freedom just lets you do something along those lines.
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 12:55:12 GMT
I just thought that after New Vegas the will upgrade their storytelling, but they prefered to idiotize it to facepalm degree in FO4, god im angry! Why would they? New Vegas was Obsidian with Bethesda only being the publisher. Obsidian is the far superior storyteller.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 11, 2017 13:30:44 GMT
* It's an entirely different deal in something like ME2 - there are serious consequences to not upgrading the Normandy, you need resources to buy any upgrades, and the only way to acquire them is planet scanning, which serves no other purpose. This is not true. There is at least one instance in ME2 where planet scanning leads to a silly little sidequest that I found quite enjoyable. In general, I admit your point, but there is at least one exception.
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 13:47:52 GMT
This is not true. There is at least one instance in ME2 where planet scanning leads to a silly little sidequest that I found quite enjoyable. In general, I admit your point, but there is at least one exception. There are more sidequests revealed by scanning. However it's not the most interesting activity. Best done after having a sixpack of strong beer to be on the same intellectual level.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 11, 2017 14:38:36 GMT
This is not true. There is at least one instance in ME2 where planet scanning leads to a silly little sidequest that I found quite enjoyable. In general, I admit your point, but there is at least one exception. There are more sidequests revealed by scanning. However it's not the most interesting activity. Best done after having a sixpack of strong beer to be on the same intellectual level. You say this as if you didn't know I consider BioWare games "drinking games". Or maybe life is a drinking game. It is all a blur now.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 11, 2017 15:34:33 GMT
Ah, it's mostly me. Like with Bioware, I'm bitter towards Bethesda too. Among Skyrim and all their Fallout games, Skyrim story is the best and most immerseve. I just thought that after New Vegas the will upgrade their storytelling, but they prefered to idiotize it to facepalm degree in FO4, god im angry! I guess if FO:NV had massively outsold FO3 that might have happened. But since that didn't happen, I don't see how this was a reasonable expectation. You're spending a lot of time on an ME:A board for someone who hasn't played it. Even suikoiden played the trial. Well, it wouldn't actually work that way more than once or twice. After that, a (non-idiot) player would realize how the game is structured. Either he'd be interested in the sidequests and lore reveals, or he wouldn't. DAI's design intent isn't one you like, but it's coherent. The open-world is to be approached instrumentally. It's structured around missions; getting to the mission targets is the gameplay, which is why the terrain is typically difficult to navigate. It has some points of interest, in the same way that, say, the Mage tower in DA:O's Broken Circle sequence has a few convos and puzzles sprinkled through what's essentially a linear dungeon crawl. I suppose you could say that Bio doesn't believe in your vision of exploration. ME:A's design vision s more confused, at least on some worlds. SAM and the squadmates often encourage Ryder to raid structures and camps which don't provide any real payoff. There's also a persistent problem with reaching mission targets and having the battle, only to be unable to actually do anything since the mission isn't active yet. The gameplay answer's the same, of course; don't go to any hostile structure or camp without a reason. I never got into JRPGs, and I don't see the distinction you're trying to make here as meaningful. Combat, noncombat, it's all the same character.
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Post by abaris on Sept 11, 2017 15:46:28 GMT
I guess if FO:NV had massively outsold FO3 that might have happened. But since that didn't happen, I don't see how this was a reasonable expectation. FNV has been developed by Obsidian, not Bethesda. Bethesda was busy developing Skyrim. Which was a stroke of luck, since in my opinion FNV is the best Fallout game of the newer generation. FNV is one of these rare games that got higher user scores than professional ones on metacritic.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 17:08:40 GMT
I have no idea where this is coming from or how it relates to the discussion at all. Am I that bad at expressing my point? Let's revisit. In response to some post I stated that Skyrim did its open world 'sandboxy', was good at it and for this was acclaimed as good open world game. In contrast with DAI, where open world was (in my view) so bad that actually harmed the game. You responded that (in your view) DAIs open world was good enough and offered good roleplaying possibilities, demonstrating it with example. I tried to make a point that your example only showed your own ability to cope with the lack of actual content and to fill the (imo, massive) gaps between story and openworld gamedesign. Uh... no. What you originally said and I wanted to respond to was this: the motivation for both comes largely from the player. But DAI has a central narrative which gives everything the inquisitor context and drive. Skyrim...doesn't. I understand that. But in DAI central narrative gives "everything the inquisitor context and drive" only in narrative related missions. Those huge areas do not serve narrative, they add nothing of substance. The only thing that they do to central narrative is obstructing it, standing on its way and (for me) watering it down to imperceptible degree. The only way side activities in those areas can be "the inquisitor context and drive" is if player, with the help of huge ton of personal efforts to imagine things, actively tries to headcannon any meaning into them. Because the game itself doesn't do that in any worthy way. So I imagine someone can like DAI open world only under condition that he likes the game story/companions so much, that the bleak shadow it casts on those areas somehow in their eyes makes those areas not that blank monotonous stupidity it really is. Sorry for far from perfect wording, my English isn't good. At this point, I suspect part of the disconnect might have to do with our definitions of terms like narrative and story. As near as I can tell, you use them interchangeably and include only main missions. My view is that no narrative exists until a player actually plays the game and creates that narrative not only with their in-game actions and choices, but also other aspects of their role-play (specifically, knowing the character's thoughts, feelings, motivations, priorities). From my perspective and interpretations, any reference to narrative related missions is meaningless, because everything the PC does in a game is narrative related. I don't need to headcanon additional meaning into quests that have my character obtain food or blankets for people who need them - that people need food and blankets is both self-evident and presented in the game. Whether your character feels compelled to do these side quests is entirely up to you, and that's where "the inquisitor context and drive" comes into play. But more to (what I think is) your point - if your real complaint is about the game's power mechanics and the fact that you had to do some side content to earn power to continue the main missions, then say so. If you didn't find the side content interesting or engaging, then say that. Claiming that optional side content obstructs narrative is just silly, as is claiming that players have to headcanon meaning into quests when their purpose and value are self-evident and/or presented in-game. There were quite a few of them in DAI (ambient, non-cutscene dialogues with player input), which was a source of complaint - and they are what I was referencing with my comments. Here is an example:
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 17:11:01 GMT
* It's an entirely different deal in something like ME2 - there are serious consequences to not upgrading the Normandy, you need resources to buy any upgrades, and the only way to acquire them is planet scanning, which serves no other purpose. This is not true. There is at least one instance in ME2 where planet scanning leads to a silly little sidequest that I found quite enjoyable. In general, I admit your point, but there is at least one exception. Okay - I don't remember ever coming across any, but I'll take your word for it. I'll also say that finding silly little sidequests was never my purpose in planet scanning. The purpose was to obtain resources.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Sept 11, 2017 18:00:29 GMT
This is not true. There is at least one instance in ME2 where planet scanning leads to a silly little sidequest that I found quite enjoyable. In general, I admit your point, but there is at least one exception. Okay - I don't remember ever coming across any, but I'll take your word for it. I'll also say that finding silly little sidequests was never my purpose in planet scanning. The purpose was to obtain resources. Agreed again, but on so many playthroughs of ME1 and ME2, finding a pyramid in ME2 was worth it, even though I was scanning planets despite having cheated all my minerals to ludicrous speed. I always want more Mass Effect. That's why I will soon continue my 10 hour tour of Andromeda. Stupid hurricanes....
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 11, 2017 18:13:49 GMT
This is not true. There is at least one instance in ME2 where planet scanning leads to a silly little sidequest that I found quite enjoyable. In general, I admit your point, but there is at least one exception. Okay - I don't remember ever coming across any, but I'll take your word for it. I'll also say that finding silly little sidequests was never my purpose in planet scanning. The purpose was to obtain resources. There were quite a few N7 missions revealed only by scanning.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 11, 2017 18:15:20 GMT
Am I that bad at expressing my point? Let's revisit. In response to some post I stated that Skyrim did its open world 'sandboxy', was good at it and for this was acclaimed as good open world game. In contrast with DAI, where open world was (in my view) so bad that actually harmed the game. You responded that (in your view) DAIs open world was good enough and offered good roleplaying possibilities, demonstrating it with example. I tried to make a point that your example only showed your own ability to cope with the lack of actual content and to fill the (imo, massive) gaps between story and openworld gamedesign. Uh... no. What you originally said and I wanted to respond to was this: I understand that. But in DAI central narrative gives "everything the inquisitor context and drive" only in narrative related missions. Those huge areas do not serve narrative, they add nothing of substance. The only thing that they do to central narrative is obstructing it, standing on its way and (for me) watering it down to imperceptible degree. The only way side activities in those areas can be "the inquisitor context and drive" is if player, with the help of huge ton of personal efforts to imagine things, actively tries to headcannon any meaning into them. Because the game itself doesn't do that in any worthy way. So I imagine someone can like DAI open world only under condition that he likes the game story/companions so much, that the bleak shadow it casts on those areas somehow in their eyes makes those areas not that blank monotonous stupidity it really is. Sorry for far from perfect wording, my English isn't good. At this point, I suspect part of the disconnect might have to do with our definitions of terms like narrative and story. As near as I can tell, you use them interchangeably and include only main missions. My view is that no narrative exists until a player actually plays the game and creates that narrative not only with their in-game actions and choices, but also other aspects of their role-play (specifically, knowing the character's thoughts, feelings, motivations, priorities). From my perspective and interpretations, any reference to narrative related missions is meaningless, because everything the PC does in a game is narrative related. I don't need to headcanon additional meaning into quests that have my character obtain food or blankets for people who need them - that people need food and blankets is both self-evident and presented in the game. Whether your character feels compelled to do these side quests is entirely up to you, and that's where "the inquisitor context and drive" comes into play. But more to (what I think is) your point - if your real complaint is about the game's power mechanics and the fact that you had to do some side content to earn power to continue the main missions, then say so. If you didn't find the side content interesting or engaging, then say that. Claiming that optional side content obstructs narrative is just silly, as is claiming that players have to headcanon meaning into quests when their purpose and value are self-evident and/or presented in-game. There were quite a few of them in DAI (ambient, non-cutscene dialogues with player input), which was a source of complaint - and they are what I was referencing with my comments. Here is an example: I don't want to watch too much of that ad I haven't played DAI yet. However why would that be a complaint?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 18:20:18 GMT
Okay - I don't remember ever coming across any, but I'll take your word for it. I'll also say that finding silly little sidequests was never my purpose in planet scanning. The purpose was to obtain resources. Agreed again, but on so many playthroughs of ME1 and ME2, finding a pyramid in ME2 was worth it, even though I was scanning planets despite having cheated all my minerals to ludicrous speed. I always want more Mass Effect. That's why I will soon continue my 10 hour tour of Andromeda. Stupid hurricanes.... Ew... IIRC, you're involved in the film industry in the Atlanta area, right? Even if Atlanta escapes major direct damage from Irma, you'll likely still be inundated with evacuees from other areas, and probably already are. Good luck weathering the storm - and stay safe.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2017 18:25:14 GMT
Uh... no. What you originally said and I wanted to respond to was this: At this point, I suspect part of the disconnect might have to do with our definitions of terms like narrative and story. As near as I can tell, you use them interchangeably and include only main missions. My view is that no narrative exists until a player actually plays the game and creates that narrative not only with their in-game actions and choices, but also other aspects of their role-play (specifically, knowing the character's thoughts, feelings, motivations, priorities). From my perspective and interpretations, any reference to narrative related missions is meaningless, because everything the PC does in a game is narrative related. I don't need to headcanon additional meaning into quests that have my character obtain food or blankets for people who need them - that people need food and blankets is both self-evident and presented in the game. Whether your character feels compelled to do these side quests is entirely up to you, and that's where "the inquisitor context and drive" comes into play. But more to (what I think is) your point - if your real complaint is about the game's power mechanics and the fact that you had to do some side content to earn power to continue the main missions, then say so. If you didn't find the side content interesting or engaging, then say that. Claiming that optional side content obstructs narrative is just silly, as is claiming that players have to headcanon meaning into quests when their purpose and value are self-evident and/or presented in-game. There were quite a few of them in DAI (ambient, non-cutscene dialogues with player input), which was a source of complaint - and they are what I was referencing with my comments. Here is an example: I don't want to watch too much of that ad I haven't played DAI yet. However why would that be a complaint? Only the complainers can answer that question. All I can tell you is that there were loads of complaints about the fact that quite a few of DAI's dialogues were not presented in fully animated cutscenes.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 11, 2017 18:32:17 GMT
I don't want to watch too much of that ad I haven't played DAI yet. However why would that be a complaint? Only the complainers can answer that question. All I can tell you is that there were loads of complaints about the fact that quite a few of DAI's dialogues were not presented in fully animated cutscenes. That makes zero sense.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 11, 2017 19:52:07 GMT
Only the complainers can answer that question. All I can tell you is that there were loads of complaints about the fact that quite a few of DAI's dialogues were not presented in fully animated cutscenes. That makes zero sense. It's a taste. It doesn't have to make sense. What does have to make sense is recommendations for design changes. You want more convos to be cutscenes? Well, then you're gonna get less convos; don't kid yourself otherwise.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2017 5:31:22 GMT
What does have to make sense is recommendations for design changes. You want more convos to be cutscenes? Well, then you're gonna get less convos; don't kid yourself otherwise. That was my biggest concern when I saw so much whining. If BioWare responds to the whining by establishing some policy dictating that all dialogue must be presented in fully animated cutscenes, we'll just end up with a lot less dialogue.
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 12, 2017 12:13:24 GMT
Why would they? New Vegas was Obsidian with Bethesda only being the publisher. Obsidian is the far superior storyteller. I guess if FO:NV had massively outsold FO3 that might have happened. But since that didn't happen, I don't see how this was a reasonable expectation. Given the track record, I think that Obsidian are the best storytellers in western world. As for expectations, I thought since Obsidian showed how superb storytelling absolutely can be implemented in open world Bethesda game, this in itself raised the bar for their further games. Harsh mistake. I'm a bit addicted to reading peoples conversations and disputes on forums and comment sections. I have few places that draw my attention on more or less regular basis and, since I do care about Bioware products and this place has some interesting personalities and also some elaborate points are made during heated discussions, well, here I'm. Mostly read-only, so no need to worry? I dunno. If it's coherent, then it's because it's as flat as ice rink. And so far I can't see anything on last three pages of the thread, that indicates necessity or even preferability for DAI to be open world. The only rationalization I can see behind this decision is "Lets chase some Skyrim vibe". And if so, then you can see why I perceive it in a way that they failed, and hard. And regarding " Don't go to any hostile structure or camp without a reason.". Does it nor raise the question "Then why offer this possibility? Why open world?" Heh, not Skyrim, and Kotaku has special treatment here (lol) but check this article: it's about New Vegas playthrough with no healing at all, so its all about avoiding combat at all costs. Really interesting role playing tricks happened in the playthrough (reading is enough to get the picture).
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 12, 2017 12:15:14 GMT
At this point, I suspect part of the disconnect might have to do with our definitions of terms like narrative and story. As near as I can tell, you use them interchangeably and include only main missions. My view is that no narrative exists until a player actually plays the game and creates that narrative not only with their in-game actions and choices, but also other aspects of their role-play (specifically, knowing the character's thoughts, feelings, motivations, priorities). Hm, I see. I know that I can't write or speak in English good enough. But I find my understanding of English rather good, however some notions and concepts what do not have direct translation/analogues in my language can be a problem sometimes. I guess we did " hung up on definitions of things" and this is entirely my fault. I perceived the word "narrative" as eh... as the very fabric of process of storytelling if its makes any sense... well, yeah its meaning is rather vague to me I don't know. To simplify things to extreme for better understanding, lets imagine that you play one of those ancient Super Mario games (I know nothing about recent ones). There you have a very bleak excuse of a story about princess searching and set of challenges on your way to different castles. As I understand, for you it would be narrative related things. I'm absolutely OK with this. But there also this thing about hitting squares with your head and gaining coins this way. Are those to be considered narrative related too? o_O Well, this is new level of I don't know what for me. You are using not doing the quest for roleplay in a way that good Inquisitor would do that and evil Inquisitor wouldn't? That kind of approach is new for me and I think it is rare as you are the first person who explained it to me and I have seen a lot of conversations around RPGs. Considering that, I can see why DAI works for you. Still remains the point that it's kinda hard to find something what wouln't work. And the more quests the better - more options to roleplay, right? Quality of quests kinda stopped to matter at this point, obviously anybody need blankets and food, and also demand for free deliveryman is self-evident and presented under absolutely any circumstances. That's interesting. If this approach is implied for somebody to be able to fully enjoy DAI, what would you advice to so called completionists? Do they absolutely need to roleplay Inquisitor with obsessive–compulsive disorder? Or how someone is supposed to roleplay good Inquisitor if he is bored to death with those blankets? May be I'm not in position to have a discussion about narrative. But I can see how your approach can't be any authority in regards to evaluation of quest-design quality. And 'optional' is bad excuse if, like, 85% of game is optional, and the rest will feel quite out of pace and very rushed without this "optional" thing. Damn, my bad. I forgot about them and have to apologize. My bad. But, hey... I don't want to watch too much of that ad I haven't played DAI yet. However why would that be a complaint? I still can answer the question! I'm not complainer on this regard, but I can relate. You see, cutscenes are engaging. You are all there when they happening. But in non-cutscene dialogues only your hearing is busy, there is nothing specific to see aside from lips animation. And people can do other things while listen to dialogue. But they can't. But they have some urge. But they can't. It makes whole thing kinda boring. I watched video and remembered how those dialogues were and personally I would appreciate if some simple commands were available for idle character when involved into non-cinematic conversation, like you know, to do some push-ups, balance on one leg, to pick his nose. To do something. Feel free to call me low-attention span monkey or whatever! Also if you afraid complaints will result in less dialogues then the losing of silent protagonist must have been that kind of tragedy for you. (Yeah, I know it wasn't. Just saying )
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 12, 2017 12:18:10 GMT
alanc9 & @pasquale I remember there was one trailer for DAI, or gameplay video (if it's required I'll look for it but only tomorrow) where was showed, you know, actual side content for DAI. Mission with interaction. With actual feedback, actual decision-making. I remember it very obscurely, watched it too long ago. There was battlefield full of bodies and some dialogue related to this, and there was gameplay where Inquisitor threw igniting bottles into boats to burn them. Well, this was content what was planned for DAI. They visioned their regions actually engaging, with good (not just self-evident and presented, but full of interaction and story-heavy) quests and activity. For some reason it didn't make into final game. But it was supposed to be that. And we all now that same thing happened with MEA with those procedurally generated things. They visioned something awesome, something grand. But it didn't made it into final product too. I dig the sentiment what considering circumstances they did managed not only just release something, but this something is actually good in some aspects. But also I suppose this means that in both games players deal with scraps and leftovers of something that didn't make it. That in both games we got rushed content to fill the carcass of something what was meant to be something bigger. That we dealing with crippled games, and because of it we can't just claim that final decisions and final results were actual design intent.
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Post by Space Cowboy on Sept 12, 2017 15:00:21 GMT
It's a taste. It doesn't have to make sense. What does have to make sense is recommendations for design changes. You want more convos to be cutscenes? Well, then you're gonna get less convos; don't kid yourself otherwise. True. That approach to dialog was mostly a cost cutting measure. Before release Laidlaw also sold it as a way the PC could leave a conversation they didn't want to be part of. It ended up having technical issues though because the npc would wander about on its own during the conversation which would often cause the conversation to end prematurely if the player didn't try to keep up with all the random directions the npc would wander. The obvious solution to this would be to keep the npc rooted while talking to the player, or disable the conversation ending unless the PC moved away. This conversation ending mechanic was pointless and Noone wanted it so I suspect we won't see its return.
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