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Post by alanc9 on Sept 6, 2017 15:58:30 GMT
To make this fly you need to say why it's OK for players to have to do the motivational RP work in Skyrim but not OK for them to have to do it in DAI. Obviously it's not about if it is OK. Everybody is OK to do whatever he wants with his game. Yeah, I shouldn't use ambiguous shorthand. How about "results in an acceptable game design"? But then we'd have to define "acceptable"....., Could you discuss those means a little? Remember, you're talking to someone who didn't find Skyrim any more interesting than DAI. I guess the proper way to frame this question is to ask what I was missing about Skyrim. I don't think this really works for me. I've got different options in both games. I've got the sniping, stealth, etc. in Skyrim, and I've got all the build and party options in DAI. The main difference is that I can't choose on-the-fly in DAI. Is that the point? Again, I'm drawing a blank on what you mean by creating a mini-story. Maybe because I didn't give a damn about the bears either way?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 16:12:49 GMT
Whether a task is "menial" is in the eyes of the player - as is how you interpret the role of the Inquisitor or Pathfinder. The games provide some basic minimal idea of what these roles are all about, but generally leave it up to you to decide what kinds of activities are in their purview. The only things you're required to do are the things that advance the main storyline. Everything else is optional. If you deem resource gathering to be beneath your character, don't do it. The Inquisitor can send teams to gather resources from the War Table if you so desire, and Apex teams will gather gear, resources, and research for the Pathfinder. Yes, Skyrim offers a world and a set of mechanics that invites you to do whatever you wish in it, filled with shallow NPCs that serve a specific purpose. BioWare games offer a cinematic branching narrative in a world filled with rich, well-developed characters, and just enough role-play space to make the PC your own. The Pathfinder is fine because you are slightly taking orders from the Nexus leadership, but in DAI you ARE the leadership. That is like Jien Garson going out to collect minerals. Doesnt she have far more pressing matters to do? Jien Garson is dead. Whether she was trained in recon or combat, whether she was ever fitted for armor or developed any expertise with weaponry is unknown. Not every NPC in the world has the same capabilities, nor do they serve the same roles. She wasn't a Pathfinder or ever a member of the Pathfinder team. Whether a task is "menial" is in the eyes of the player - as is how you interpret the role of the Inquisitor or Pathfinder. The games provide some basic minimal idea of what these roles are all about, but generally leave it up to you to decide what kinds of activities are in their purview. The only things you're required to do are the things that advance the main storyline. Everything else is optional. If you deem resource gathering to be beneath your character, don't do it. The Inquisitor can send teams to gather resources from the War Table if you so desire, and Apex teams will gather gear, resources, and research for the Pathfinder. Yes, Skyrim offers a world and a set of mechanics that invites you to do whatever you wish in it, filled with shallow NPCs that serve a specific purpose. BioWare games offer a cinematic branching narrative in a world filled with rich, well-developed characters, and just enough role-play space to make the PC your own. Outside of main quest, DAI was light on cinematic. Is this another one of those "Waaah! DAI actually had some ambient conversations instead of cutscenes, cutscenes everywhere!" whines?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 18:01:22 GMT
Could you discuss those means a little? Remember, you're talking to someone who didn't find Skyrim any more interesting than DAI. I guess the proper way to frame this question is to ask what I was missing about Skyrim. I'm not steamshipman, but I think I can answer at least some of what you're asking (though I think you already know the answers). Skyrim is a world with loads of content - different factions to join (or not) and a wide variety of both combat and non-combat skills to develop. It includes several places your character can live (sleep and store stuff), multiple facilities you can use to craft your gear, multiple holds with townships, the ability to become an authority figure in all of them, etc. The game introduces a main quest, but does nothing to push you toward actually doing it. It is a sandbox, a set of tools you can use to create your character and his/her narrative. Example: I once played a 153-year-old Bosmer elf and concocted a backstory and goals for her. She'd already mastered some skills, and I used the console commands to reflect that in her build. She wanted to build a crafting business, establish a home and family, which she did. As she became aware of and concerned about the vampire threat, she joined the Dawnguard to thwart it. She eventually got fed up with the dragon plague and curious about her status as dragonborn and the whole shout business, so she eventually pursued that. I had another character who was a young Orc with a lot to prove. One of her goals was to establish herself in every hold, and became Thane of every hold. I can play another character with a direct investment on one side of the civil war, and another equally passionate about the other side. In most BioWare games (DA2 is the only exception), your character has a specific role (warden, inquisitor, captain of a starship) and an assigned goal. The game mechanics gate content and take you through a specific narrative in a specific way. The lore and mechanics are very, very different. Skyrim does not differentiate between magic users and non-magic users, and you don't gain skills by investing points earned via level-up. Skyrim has loads of non-combat as well as combat skills, and you gain proficiency in them by using them. You can completely change your approach to combat at any time by switching gear, or equipping magic skills. I think the entire point of Skyrim is that it's a sandbox, a toolset you can use to create your own character's narrative. BioWare games set out to tell a specific story, with some optional branches and choices with consequences included. They do give you some space for emergent narrative (some more than others), but they generally focus on a set of main quests.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 6, 2017 18:20:36 GMT
But exactly what are the tools which Skyrim has and DA:I doesn't? The noncombat skills seem to be the only concrete mechanic.
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Post by abaris on Sept 6, 2017 18:35:34 GMT
But exactly what are the tools which Skyrim has and DA:I doesn't? As every Bethesda game, the world offers the appearance of being alive. Traders moving from town to town. Such as the Khajit band you can meet on the streets when travelling. NPCs doing the same. They actually do the journey and don't teleport to their final destination. Townsfolk reacting, participating or fleeing when there's fighting in the streets. Children chasing about in the settlements. And with FO4 they finally introduced settlement creation and settlers going about their business. Tending crops, tending shops or doing guards duty. Day/Night cycle and dynamic weather conditions. All of that Bioware never had and probably will never have. Bethesda games have a lot of weaknesses, but they're far superior when it comes to the illusion of life than Bioware ever was. Even back when there was only the Citadell and a few additional hubs, it was mostly a static experience with NPCs forming road blocks rather than being mobile. Bioware games have always been snapshots of a certain situation and left it at that. Such as the infamous guy shouting "Aria is expecting me" all through ME2 when visiting Omega. Nobody ever moved, nobody is still moving. Bradley can moonlight as a telephone pole for all he does on Prodromos.
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Post by krighaur on Sept 6, 2017 19:05:29 GMT
But exactly what are the tools which Skyrim has and DA:I doesn't? As every Bethesda game, the world offers the appearance of being alive. Traders moving from town to town. Such as the Khajit band you can meet on the streets when travelling. NPCs doing the same. They actually do the journey and don't teleport to their final destination. Townsfolk reacting, participating or fleeing when there's fighting in the streets. Children chasing about in the settlements. And with FO4 they finally introduced settlement creation and settlers going about their business. Tending crops, tending shops or doing guards duty. Day/Night cycle and dynamic weather conditions. All of that Bioware never had and probably will never have. Bethesda games have a lot of weaknesses, but they're far superior when it comes to the illusion of life than Bioware ever was. Even back when there was only the Citadell and a few additional hubs, it was mostly a static experience with NPCs forming road blocks rather than being mobile. Bioware games have always been snapshots of a certain situation and left it at that. Such as the infamous guy shouting "Aria is expecting me" all through ME2 when visiting Omega. Nobody ever moved, nobody is still moving. Bradley can moonlight as a telephone pole for all he does on Prodromos. In complement to what Abaris said, Skyrim has "ai-package" for the NPC (NPC including animals). This is why in Skyrim you can see wolves chasing elk or rabbits. Combined with factions, these "ai-package" can be very detailled (I have seen mods that make NPC travel from one extremity of the map to another), and this is what makes Skyrim looks like a living world : a lulluby flying from flower to flower, a wolf chasing a rabbit, a hunter chasing the wolf, a suddain storm or rain, a bandit raid upon a city, with reaction from guards. Skyrim has also dynamics quests : That means that it is possible to add a dungeon (or many) to the initial dungeons the Jarls ask you to clear. This system existed in a less elaborated state in NWN, and NWN 2, and was relatively easy to use. All three games had a conversation editor which allowed to elaborate dialogs with many possible branches. This leads to the main tools lacking in DA or ME : Skyrim, NWN and NWN 2 had a toolset. A bit buggy, but it allowed you to modify all that you wanted.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 19:16:00 GMT
The Pathfinder is fine because you are slightly taking orders from the Nexus leadership, but in DAI you ARE the leadership. That is like Jien Garson going out to collect minerals. Doesnt she have far more pressing matters to do? Jien Garson is dead. Whether she was trained in recon or combat, whether she was ever fitted for armor or developed any expertise with weaponry is unknown. Not every NPC in the world has the same capabilities, nor do they serve the same roles. She wasn't a Pathfinder or ever a member of the Pathfinder team. Outside of main quest, DAI was light on cinematic. Is this another one of those "Waaah! DAI actually had some ambient conversations instead of cutscenes, cutscenes everywhere!" whines? 1) My Jien Garson example was just to highlight how stupid it would be for the leader of an important organization to be doing basic menial task that are normally delegated to the lowest levels. A General focuses on the bigger operational and strategic picture. The Privates, led by Sergeants are the ones out in the field doing the many task....which feeds into the General's strategic and operational plans. 2) About cinematics, you may not have a problem with how DAI did the "ambient" conversations but it wasnt Bioware's intent. They confirmed that they had to dial back because cutscenes cost money as well as resources/space.....which the 360 and PS3 could not handle. Otherwise everything would be full cinematic like DAO and DA2. So I expect DA4 to improve upon that.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 19:21:22 GMT
As every Bethesda game, the world offers the appearance of being alive. Traders moving from town to town. Such as the Khajit band you can meet on the streets when travelling. NPCs doing the same. They actually do the journey and don't teleport to their final destination. Townsfolk reacting, participating or fleeing when there's fighting in the streets. Children chasing about in the settlements. And with FO4 they finally introduced settlement creation and settlers going about their business. Tending crops, tending shops or doing guards duty. Day/Night cycle and dynamic weather conditions. All of that Bioware never had and probably will never have. Bethesda games have a lot of weaknesses, but they're far superior when it comes to the illusion of life than Bioware ever was. Even back when there was only the Citadell and a few additional hubs, it was mostly a static experience with NPCs forming road blocks rather than being mobile. Bioware games have always been snapshots of a certain situation and left it at that. Such as the infamous guy shouting "Aria is expecting me" all through ME2 when visiting Omega. Nobody ever moved, nobody is still moving. Bradley can moonlight as a telephone pole for all he does on Prodromos. In complement to what Abaris said, Skyrim has "ai-package" for the NPC (NPC including animals). This is why in Skyrim you can see wolves chasing elk or rabbits. Combined with factions, these "ai-package" can be very detailled (I have seen mods that make NPC travel from one extremity of the map to another), and this is what makes Skyrim looks like a living world : a lulluby flying from flower to flower, a wolf chasing a rabbit, a hunter chasing the wolf, a suddain storm or rain, a bandit raid upon a city, with reaction from guards. Skyrim has also dynamics quests : That means that it is possible to add a dungeon (or many) to the initial dungeons the Jarls ask you to clear. This system existed in a less elaborated state in NWN, and NWN 2, and was relatively easy to use. All three games had a conversation editor which allowed to elaborate dialogs with many possible branches. This leads to the main tools lacking in DA or ME : Skyrim, NWN and NWN 2 had a toolset. A bit buggy, but it allowed you to modify all that you wanted. Well said, both of you. I only hope that DA4 is able to do at least 50% of what Skyrim is able to do in terms of the open world.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:30:48 GMT
But exactly what are the tools which Skyrim has and DA:I doesn't? The noncombat skills seem to be the only concrete mechanic. Tools might not be a very descriptive term, given the amount and variety of stuff that supports sandbox play. Noncombat skills are certainly a part of it, but the variety of quests, factions, facilities, etc. may be the bulk of it. Mostly, it's the degree of freedom Skyrim affords. A wee laundry list: - You can kill non-combatants in Skyrim. Sometimes they're killed by dragons, vampire attacks, etc. Some NPCs are marked essential and will come back to life if killed, but some really do die - including merchants and quest-givers.
- There's a Civil War underway in Skyrim. You can join either side or ignore it altogether.
- There's a school of magic in Skyrim, in which you can enroll if you like.
- You can become an assassin in Skyrim and join their guild (Dark Brotherhood).
- Basically, there are guilds/factions for various moral persuasions.
- You can become Thane of every single hold, which allows you to purchase a home and acquire a housecarl (which can be a follower). There is also housing available in many other places - some offer only sleeping accommodations, while others also have permanent (safe) storage.
- There are several high-level beings (Dremora) gods, goddesses, and the like with whom you can interact. Do their quests, battle them, receive very unique loot.
- There are a lot of unique, one-of-a-kind items in Skyrim that have special bonuses. Also loads of potions/consumables that buff, de-buff, heal, replenish, etc.
- Some questlines have multiple steps, but outside of that, no content is gated once you get past the introductory bits.
In short - your character is a dragonborn. S/he has no particular role or title, no goal outside of what you choose for them, no expectation of loyalty or commitment to any individual or organization. Just loads and loads of skills to develop, content to explore, stuff to acquire, quests to pursue.
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Post by abaris on Sept 6, 2017 19:31:31 GMT
In complement to what Abaris said, Skyrim has "ai-package" for the NPC (NPC including animals). This is why in Skyrim you can see wolves chasing elk or rabbits. To be fair, DAI has that too. Bears and wolves chasing deer. That's why I always maintain, DAI did a better job of making the maps look alive than MEA did.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 19:40:47 GMT
Jien Garson is dead. Whether she was trained in recon or combat, whether she was ever fitted for armor or developed any expertise with weaponry is unknown. Not every NPC in the world has the same capabilities, nor do they serve the same roles. She wasn't a Pathfinder or ever a member of the Pathfinder team. Is this another one of those "Waaah! DAI actually had some ambient conversations instead of cutscenes, cutscenes everywhere!" whines? 1) My Jien Garson example was just to highlight how stupid it would be for the leader of an important organization to be doing basic menial task that are normally delegated to the lowest levels. You failed. I'm not sure where you get this "normally" nonsense - game worlds are not equivalent to real-life worlds. But as always, and as has already been covered, you can acquire additional resources (recruit followers, agents, collect loot and crafting supplies) for your organization - or not. I hope they continue with the ambient conversations - they're much more organic, and the resources wasted on the ridiculous overabundance of cutscenes can be better spent elsewhere.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 6, 2017 19:51:48 GMT
But exactly what are the tools which Skyrim has and DA:I doesn't? The noncombat skills seem to be the only concrete mechanic. Tools might not be a very descriptive term, given the amount and variety of stuff that supports sandbox play. Noncombat skills are certainly a part of it, but the variety of quests, factions, facilities, etc. may be the bulk of it. Mostly, it's the degree of freedom Skyrim affords. A wee laundry list: - You can kill non-combatants in Skyrim. Sometimes they're killed by dragons, vampire attacks, etc. Some NPCs are marked essential and will come back to life if killed, but some really do die - including merchants and quest-givers.
- There's a Civil War underway in Skyrim. You can join either side or ignore it altogether.
- There's a school of magic in Skyrim, in which you can enroll if you like.
- You can become an assassin in Skyrim and join their guild (Dark Brotherhood).
- Basically, there are guilds/factions for various moral persuasions.
- You can become Thane of every single hold, which allows you to purchase a home and acquire a housecarl (which can be a follower). There is also housing available in many other places - some offer only sleeping accommodations, while others also have permanent (safe) storage.
- There are several high-level beings (Dremora) gods, goddesses, and the like with whom you can interact. Do their quests, battle them, receive very unique loot.
- There are a lot of unique, one-of-a-kind items in Skyrim that have special bonuses. Also loads of potions/consumables that buff, de-buff, heal, replenish, etc.
- Some questlines have multiple steps, but outside of that, no content is gated once you get past the introductory bits.
In short - your character is a dragonborn. S/he has no particular role or title, no goal outside of what you choose for them, no expectation of loyalty or commitment to any individual or organization. Just loads and loads of skills to develop, content to explore, stuff to acquire, quests to pursue.
I'm starting to think that I just have an innate inability to understand the sandbox concept. Some of these sound actively bad to me.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 19:52:48 GMT
1) My Jien Garson example was just to highlight how stupid it would be for the leader of an important organization to be doing basic menial task that are normally delegated to the lowest levels. You failed. I'm not sure where you get this "normally" nonsense - game worlds are not equivalent to real-life worlds. But as always, and as has already been covered, you can acquire additional resources (recruit followers, agents, collect loot and crafting supplies) for your organization - or not. I hope they continue with the ambient conversations - they're much more organic, and the resources wasted on the ridiculous overabundance of cutscenes can be better spent elsewhere. 1) I did not fail and if I did, then most of the people who criticized the DAI side quest were alsp wrong as that was one of their main complaints, that many of the side quest felt "beneath" the role of the IQ. 2) Well I guess you will be disappointed then because Bioware has said before that they are aware of the of the lack of cinematics and given that with DA4 the PS3/360 is not in the picture in addition to their experience with Frostbite after DAI, DA4 should prove to be more cinematic like DAO and DA2. Again, DAI ambient dialog was NOT their intent but more of a way to even things out. They no longer have the same limitations with DA4.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 20:16:29 GMT
You failed. I'm not sure where you get this "normally" nonsense - game worlds are not equivalent to real-life worlds. But as always, and as has already been covered, you can acquire additional resources (recruit followers, agents, collect loot and crafting supplies) for your organization - or not. I hope they continue with the ambient conversations - they're much more organic, and the resources wasted on the ridiculous overabundance of cutscenes can be better spent elsewhere. 1) I did not fail and if I did, then most of the people who criticized the DAI side quest were alsp wrong as that was one of their main complaints, that many of the side quest felt "beneath" the role of the IQ. Do you have any links to demonstrate that assertion? It wouldn't be the first time, and probably not the last.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 20:21:37 GMT
Tools might not be a very descriptive term, given the amount and variety of stuff that supports sandbox play. Noncombat skills are certainly a part of it, but the variety of quests, factions, facilities, etc. may be the bulk of it. Mostly, it's the degree of freedom Skyrim affords. A wee laundry list: - You can kill non-combatants in Skyrim. Sometimes they're killed by dragons, vampire attacks, etc. Some NPCs are marked essential and will come back to life if killed, but some really do die - including merchants and quest-givers.
- There's a Civil War underway in Skyrim. You can join either side or ignore it altogether.
- There's a school of magic in Skyrim, in which you can enroll if you like.
- You can become an assassin in Skyrim and join their guild (Dark Brotherhood).
- Basically, there are guilds/factions for various moral persuasions.
- You can become Thane of every single hold, which allows you to purchase a home and acquire a housecarl (which can be a follower). There is also housing available in many other places - some offer only sleeping accommodations, while others also have permanent (safe) storage.
- There are several high-level beings (Dremora) gods, goddesses, and the like with whom you can interact. Do their quests, battle them, receive very unique loot.
- There are a lot of unique, one-of-a-kind items in Skyrim that have special bonuses. Also loads of potions/consumables that buff, de-buff, heal, replenish, etc.
- Some questlines have multiple steps, but outside of that, no content is gated once you get past the introductory bits.
In short - your character is a dragonborn. S/he has no particular role or title, no goal outside of what you choose for them, no expectation of loyalty or commitment to any individual or organization. Just loads and loads of skills to develop, content to explore, stuff to acquire, quests to pursue.
I'm starting to think that I just have an innate inability to understand the sandbox concept. Some of these sound actively bad to me. But we probably knew that before we even entered this conversation. You seem to prefer games that take you through a specific, timed, paced sequence of events. I can enjoy those, but also appreciate having the freedom to explore a game world's content on my own. I'm quite happy to plunk a self-designed character into a world and then see what she does.
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Post by river82 on Sept 6, 2017 21:04:49 GMT
Tools might not be a very descriptive term, given the amount and variety of stuff that supports sandbox play. Noncombat skills are certainly a part of it, but the variety of quests, factions, facilities, etc. may be the bulk of it. Mostly, it's the degree of freedom Skyrim affords. A wee laundry list: - You can kill non-combatants in Skyrim. Sometimes they're killed by dragons, vampire attacks, etc. Some NPCs are marked essential and will come back to life if killed, but some really do die - including merchants and quest-givers.
- There's a Civil War underway in Skyrim. You can join either side or ignore it altogether.
- There's a school of magic in Skyrim, in which you can enroll if you like.
- You can become an assassin in Skyrim and join their guild (Dark Brotherhood).
- Basically, there are guilds/factions for various moral persuasions.
- You can become Thane of every single hold, which allows you to purchase a home and acquire a housecarl (which can be a follower). There is also housing available in many other places - some offer only sleeping accommodations, while others also have permanent (safe) storage.
- There are several high-level beings (Dremora) gods, goddesses, and the like with whom you can interact. Do their quests, battle them, receive very unique loot.
- There are a lot of unique, one-of-a-kind items in Skyrim that have special bonuses. Also loads of potions/consumables that buff, de-buff, heal, replenish, etc.
- Some questlines have multiple steps, but outside of that, no content is gated once you get past the introductory bits.
In short - your character is a dragonborn. S/he has no particular role or title, no goal outside of what you choose for them, no expectation of loyalty or commitment to any individual or organization. Just loads and loads of skills to develop, content to explore, stuff to acquire, quests to pursue.
I'm starting to think that I just have an innate inability to understand the sandbox concept. Some of these sound actively bad to me. Since Morrowind you've been able to become a vampire. If you do, you need to sneak around at night and drink people's blood or your vampirism will show on your face and guards will attack you on sight. In Skyrim werewolves and vampires are enemies, which affects things further. Daylight becomes a problem. It's not whether you like certain things, but it's almost undeniable that Bethesda fills their world with ways which allows players to LIVE that world.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 21:13:38 GMT
I'm starting to think that I just have an innate inability to understand the sandbox concept. Some of these sound actively bad to me. Since Morrowind you've been able to become a vampire. If you do, you need to sneak around at night and drink people's blood or your vampirism will show on your face and guards will attack you on sight. In Skyrim werewolves and vampires are enemies, which affects things further. Daylight becomes a problem. It's not whether you like certain things, but it's almost undeniable that Bethesda fills their world with ways which allows players to LIVE that world. You can become a werewolf, too, in Skyrim. I think there's a potion vampires can use in Skyrim in lieu of drinking blood.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 7, 2017 22:03:18 GMT
Since Morrowind you've been able to become a vampire. If you do, you need to sneak around at night and drink people's blood or your vampirism will show on your face and guards will attack you on sight. In Skyrim werewolves and vampires are enemies, which affects things further. Daylight becomes a problem. It's not whether you like certain things, but it's almost undeniable that Bethesda fills their world with ways which allows players to LIVE that world. You can become a werewolf, too, in Skyrim. I think there's a potion vampires can use in Skyrim in lieu of drinking blood. IIRC there is.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 8, 2017 0:13:53 GMT
I'm starting to think that I just have an innate inability to understand the sandbox concept. Some of these sound actively bad to me. Since Morrowind you've been able to become a vampire. If you do, you need to sneak around at night and drink people's blood or your vampirism will show on your face and guards will attack you on sight. In Skyrim werewolves and vampires are enemies, which affects things further. Daylight becomes a problem. It's not whether you like certain things, but it's almost undeniable that Bethesda fills their world with ways which allows players to LIVE that world. I would never phrase it like that. The lack of real consequences and relationships makes it impossible (for me) to, um, LIVE that world. It feels more like..... playing dolly dress-up, except I'm putting a vampire suit on my PC instead of an Easter bonnet? Crappy metaphor, but it's all I've got tonight.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Sept 8, 2017 3:56:13 GMT
You clearly have a bad taste. That's all
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 8, 2017 4:39:54 GMT
*shrugs* De gustibus non est disputandum, right?
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 8, 2017 10:51:12 GMT
Pardon, right now I has access to Internet only at work and haven't much time to write on forum. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. It is true that DAI doesn't hand you a list of assignments from a superior, but with the exception of DAO's treaties, the DA games were never that way. Your character doesn't have assignments handed down from on high, because your character is the ultimate authority of the Inquisition, and playing that role is on you. Other content is there for you to discover... or not. DAI doesn't hold your hand and tell you what to do step-by-step. It gives you a role (that of the Inquisitor) and a world to influence (bring under the Inquisition) and then mostly gets out of the way and allows you to get on with it. There are some scenarios set up in the world that allow you to investigate and figure out what happened there - all of which is part of the story being told. Personally, I do most of the content in the Hinterlands before I go to Val Royeaux. My Inquisitors typically want to bring a measure of stability and security to at least one area before she goes to try to make a case for herself with Chantry officials. I would agree that there are more/bigger maps than needed, and the constant bear battles get pretty old pretty quickly. I'd like to be able to zip by enemies on my mount without having to go into combat mode so frequently. I also think the enemy detection range is much too big; there have been a number of times I've wanted to fast travel from an area but the game would not allow it because there was an enemy in range (which I had no intention or desire to engage). I see contradictions here. First is the 'handholding' part. From further discussion here I see that you understand what Skyrim is in a similar way I do. So I can't figure out how handholding can come out here as counterpoint. Skyrim is a sandbox and sandbox is kinda the opposite of handholding, isn't it? Second is you said that you disagree and then describe your experience which directly strengthen my point. That is I respect your experience and your ability to make your time in DAI as colorful and rich and personal as you describe. But it is you who did the job, not the game. Is Val Royeaux actually plays any different depending on measure of stability and security? As far as I know, it's not. So to make the story work you had to do the busywork and headcanon how it was important to your job and task. I see that you have no problems with gathering elfroots and putting flowers on the graves as the Inquisitor. But you can't deny that this kind of activity requires some level of mental gymnastics to justify that, because in-game it doesn't have any justification. That makes things worse is that for most part, combat is the only form of interaction with this world. So, you 'interacted' with world and killed a bear. Yay. You move ahead, close nearby rift, go back and the bear is back! Few steps away from the same spot you killed him fifteen minutes ago. Such a breathing, immersive, reactive and open to interaction open world... And as you said, "Other content is there for you to discover... or not.". That's just means that other content is skipable, insignificant. It is really just an excuse of content. It contributes nothing and means nothing, unless player himself gives it some meaning in his head. So this content is as praise deserving as blank page. Yes, I can imagine Edgar Allan Poe-level story written on it. But blank page still has value of blank page. Is this another one of those "Waaah! DAI actually had some ambient conversations instead of cutscenes, cutscenes everywhere!" whines? I think you not fully understand why this was so much a problem for people. The key difference between ambient conversations and cutscenes is interaction. Ambient conversations are great for worldbuilding and atmosphere, that's right. But in Bioware games cutscenes is the primary form of interaction. And since open world parts of DAI are very lacking on interaction part (combat, only combat), no cutscenes meant you couldn't interact with story either. Or, simply speaking, there was nothing to cutscene actually. And this is what made all those people, eh... whine.
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 8, 2017 11:03:23 GMT
Could you discuss those means a little? Remember, you're talking to someone who didn't find Skyrim any more interesting than DAI. I guess the proper way to frame this question is to ask what I was missing about Skyrim. I'm sure you did find that DAIs core story is more interesting. It's multidimensionally better Skyrim is unassuming. So if you played Skyrim for a story the game will tell you, then it was Mission Imposible from the start. No way you would appreciate it in this game because yeah, not much to appreciate. It's perfectly fine if it's not your cup of tea and all that. That you can do is acknowledge and try to understand why the game is acclaimed among people who like openworld games. Let's imagine random fort. This fort currently isn't part of quest, its just a random fort in the open world. In DAI: you go into the fort for 'exploration' reasons. All you can do is go there upfront and fight enemies inside. May be there will be one or two letters. It will be mostly random letters without particular reason to be in this particular fort aside from the fact that their chances to be found here are higher than on some random patch of open ground. Fights in this fort aren't any different from the fights you had on your way here aside from different battle field background. And you know this, because you have been in forts before. The enemies everywhere in those huge areas have pure "filler" function to make you feel occupied while "exploring". You'll probably find chest with loot. Your satisfaction from this exploration is... I guess it's a thought that 'Muh Inquisition grows stronger! Must be very influential now!..". In Skyrim: your go into the fort for exploration reasons. You can: rush in with storm and fire, shouting people left and right. You can: sneak in through some secret door and kill sleeping bandits in their beds. You can use some spells and watch as they fight among themselves and against your summons. You can chose one enemy, leave him alive and than play with him like cat with mouse. You can steal everything and leave without killing at all. You can RP everything because everything is interactive. Fights aren't filler because you RP them, and it is reflected in game. Also almost every fort is part of very simple but actual story, reflected in ambient conversations of its habitats, relevant letters and items your find in the place. More than that. This fort can be: base of operations for group of bandits, haunted cursed place with grim story, vampire hideout, place of gathering for forbidden magic users, abandoned fort where wildlife has took over and so on. And all this outside from any quests. That's what exploration is. It's all interactive with many points of interaction aside from fighting. This is real exploration, not just piece of map with enemies in it. After clearing this fort you know its story. Its mostly very very simple story, but now you know what is this place about and you been there at conclusion of this simple story and you had freedom to paint it in colors you wanted (I killed those mages because I fight evil! or I killed those because I hate humans! or I killed those because I want this place to be my base of local operations and their alchemical laboratory is nuts! or I need their food!).
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Post by Kappa Neko on Sept 8, 2017 13:07:10 GMT
It's kind of funny how Bioware tried to copy Bethesda's success open worlds and failed terribly and then Bethesda pissed a lot of people off with FO4, a game I cannot help thinking tried to be a bit more emotionally involving Bioware style with a voiced protagonist, a dialogue wheel and better companions. But putting a character with set background and dorky voice in a sandbox game makes it REALLY hard to roleplay a character who's not a family man douchebag, and kind of defeats the purpose.
Both Bioware and Bethesda compromised their success formula trying to do something that works for others but only ended up watering down what made their games unique.
That said, I think FO4 is a fantastic addictive game if you're into base building (I love it!!!), but many of the things people loved about Fallout and Skyrim got removed or seriously downgraded.
FO4 suffers a bit from the same issue that DAI and MEA had concerning confrontations. 99% of all the people in FO4 you meet outside settlements try to kill you on sight. Rarely can you talk yourself out of a situation anymore. There is a really boring grind factor to FO4 exploration because it ALWAYS involves killing everything in a building. The gameplay is very repetitive and if I didn't get hooked on the sandbox settlement building like a crack junkie, I would have stopped playing weeks ago.
I do appreciate the voiced protagonist and am fine with the story but if they cut the quest size and made most quests fetch quests because all the extra voice acting ate the budget, I'm not sure if it was a compromise that paid off...
So unless you're a CDPR magician and somehow manage to pull off that near perfect compromise between cinematic story and a world that feels alive, don't try. Focus on your strength and work within that framework.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2017 18:27:42 GMT
Pardon, right now I has access to Internet only at work and haven't much time to write on forum. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. It is true that DAI doesn't hand you a list of assignments from a superior, but with the exception of DAO's treaties, the DA games were never that way. Your character doesn't have assignments handed down from on high, because your character is the ultimate authority of the Inquisition, and playing that role is on you. Other content is there for you to discover... or not. DAI doesn't hold your hand and tell you what to do step-by-step. It gives you a role (that of the Inquisitor) and a world to influence (bring under the Inquisition) and then mostly gets out of the way and allows you to get on with it. There are some scenarios set up in the world that allow you to investigate and figure out what happened there - all of which is part of the story being told. Personally, I do most of the content in the Hinterlands before I go to Val Royeaux. My Inquisitors typically want to bring a measure of stability and security to at least one area before she goes to try to make a case for herself with Chantry officials. I would agree that there are more/bigger maps than needed, and the constant bear battles get pretty old pretty quickly. I'd like to be able to zip by enemies on my mount without having to go into combat mode so frequently. I also think the enemy detection range is much too big; there have been a number of times I've wanted to fast travel from an area but the game would not allow it because there was an enemy in range (which I had no intention or desire to engage). I see contradictions here. First is the 'handholding' part. From further discussion here I see that you understand what Skyrim is in a similar way I do. So I can't figure out how handholding can come out here as counterpoint. Skyrim is a sandbox and sandbox is kinda the opposite of handholding, isn't it? Second is you said that you disagree and then describe your experience which directly strengthen my point. That is I have no idea where this is coming from or how it relates to the discussion at all. It's called role-play. The game made my character the Inquisitor, with all that that entails. It didn't come with a fully-formed organization, but a few followers, a world threatened by demons pouring through rifts, templars toying with red lyrium, mages rebelling, and everyone questioning who/what this Inquisitor is and why they should follow her. And BTW, the game did not require me to do that Hinterlands content prior to visiting Val Royeaux - it was my choice. Acquiring resources (including followers, agents, troops, horses, craftsmen, weapons, armor, crafting supplies) for the Inquisition is a no-brainer for me. You started with nothing, and need to build and supply an organization. Even so, you can send agents to collect resources via the War Table if you so choose. Any player who doesn't understand the need to build the Inquisition's power is reminded of that fact by the War Table mechanics. Putting flowers on a grave is something I might do if I happen to be in the area. You're dealing with a citizenry who are frightened and have had their world turned upside-down, and you need to build influence (power). Boosting their morale and gaining their favor with simple acts of kindness is also a no-brainer for me, but it's entirely optional content. DAO had stealth/stealing, but aside from that, BioWare games have always been a little short on ways to interact with the world. Some titles have had some form of hacking/lockpicking, and DAI apparently replaced that with elemental barriers, bashable walls, etc. It isn't a mechanic I especially appreciate because, combined with the way cross-class combos work, I feel like the game really pushes party composition. Most games with large maps/open worlds respawn enemies. I'd guess the reason for that design choice is that it allows players to level up more and acquire more resources than they could if things didn't respawn. For my part, I get a bit tired of it - but I also get tired of all the wildlife (especially wolves) that spawn on the roads in Skyrim. That aside, while not technically "interaction", some of the storytelling they did was in the level design itself. The deposits of red lyrium and templars affected by it. I also remember a fort with a specific series of events and bodies strewn around that were there to tell a story about what had happened there. I'm not sure what any of this has to do with my response to you, however. I don't think I've ever played a game, certainly not an RPG, that didn't have some optional side content. It has value to me for its role-playing potential and allows me to create emergent narrative - via justifications for doing it or not, prioritizing it relative to other tasks, etc. But again, I'm not sure how or why the existence of a fair bit of optional side content has anything to do with my original response. Cutscenes interactive? I suppose that depends on the cutscene - some of them do bring up the dialogue wheel or offer interrupts. But some cutscenes provide no interactivity whatsoever, and are there only to be watched. Most combat doesn't happen in cutscenes, either, yet you seem to recognize combat as a way of interacting with the world. Dialogue with NPCs is also direct interaction with the world, whether or not it occurs in cutscenes. Wrapping dialogue in cutscenes does not change the content of the conversation, only how it is presented.
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