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Post by river82 on Sept 5, 2017 22:28:49 GMT
ME2 you had Tali v Legion and Miranda v Jack. Providing some of the most memorable stuff in the game And you're right, ME:A had none of that and was all the more boring for it
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Post by Deleted on Sept 5, 2017 22:33:18 GMT
Everyone is challenging Liam, but not in a good way. It just further cements the image of Liam being a douche. I don't really recall people challenging Liam, as much as talking about him behind his back in banter. What I most remember is Liam provoking Vetra about bringing Sid to Andromeda in banter. Also, the scene where Peebee announces she's decided to stay and asks for help organizing her space is pretty cute.
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Post by duckley on Sept 6, 2017 1:26:19 GMT
I have the feeling that this is going to be a great discussion.... ;p Even though I agree that there is much more wrong with the game than solely the animations. My biggest gripe still lies with the way Bio handles Open Worlds. It just isn't their strong suit, just like narrative isn't Bethesda's. I have totally enjoyed BIOWARE'S open world. In fact the more I play DAI the more I appreciate the game play. What don't you like about their open world style. I played Skyrim but never finished it as it was too big and too devoid of any heart and soul for my liking.
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Post by griffith82 on Sept 6, 2017 1:39:25 GMT
I have the feeling that this is going to be a great discussion.... ;p Even though I agree that there is much more wrong with the game than solely the animations. My biggest gripe still lies with the way Bio handles Open Worlds. It just isn't their strong suit, just like narrative isn't Bethesda's. I have totally enjoyed BIOWARE'S open world. In fact the more I play DAI the more I appreciate the game play. What don't you like about their open world style. I played Skyrim but never finished it as it was too big and too devoid of any heart and soul for my liking. I finished the main plot but I agree it wasn't as lively as I'd have liked.
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 6, 2017 5:22:22 GMT
I played Skyrim but never finished it as it was too big and too devoid of any heart and soul for my liking. Skyrim is a sandbox game, and it is player who puts any heart and soul in there accordingly to his liking. (Also, yeah, without mods this is a very problematic thing to do). DAIs open world, if you just remove all story-crucial missions, is a set of huge areas of nothing but hollow busywork of running, fighting and 'radar-pinging' without solid in-game motivation to do that. How people can appreciate it I cannot fathom.
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Post by alanc9 on Sept 6, 2017 5:34:36 GMT
I played Skyrim but never finished it as it was too big and too devoid of any heart and soul for my liking. Skyrim is a sandbox game, and it is player who puts any heart and soul in there accordingly to his liking. (Also, yeah, without mods this is a very problematic thing to do). DAIs open world, if you just remove all story-crucial missions, is a set of huge areas of nothing but hollow busywork of running, fighting and 'radar-pinging' without solid in-game motivation to do that. How people can appreciate it I cannot fathom. To make this fly you need to say why it's OK for players to have to do the motivational RP work in Skyrim but not OK for them to have to do it in DAI. I'd do it myself but I'm not qualified; I found Skyrim's open world no more interesting than DAI's.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 6, 2017 5:56:13 GMT
I played Skyrim but never finished it as it was too big and too devoid of any heart and soul for my liking. Skyrim is a sandbox game, and it is player who puts any heart and soul in there accordingly to his liking. (Also, yeah, without mods this is a very problematic thing to do). DAIs open world, if you just remove all story-crucial missions, is a set of huge areas of nothing but hollow busywork of running, fighting and 'radar-pinging' without solid in-game motivation to do that. How people can appreciate it I cannot fathom. the motivation for both comes largely from the player. But DAI has a central narrative which gives everything the inquisitor context and drive. Skyrim...doesn't.
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 6, 2017 6:42:50 GMT
To make this fly you need to say why it's OK for players to have to do the motivational RP work in Skyrim but not OK for them to have to do it in DAI. Obviously it's not about if it is OK. Everybody is OK to do whatever he wants with his game. But Skyrim was designed that way and gives you all the means to do that. In Skyrim you have your toys and its up to you how to play them. They could put much better (main) story in their game but it isn't story what still keep this game alive and well up until these days. You can pretty much remove main story (only story, not content like 'fusrodah' itself ) from the game entirely and I don't think that this will lower Skyrim's popularity much. In Skyrim you have good and flexible means to entertain yourself. To create your mini-stories. There aren't many things that are 'set in stone'. Multiple ways to interact with everything. In DAI there is no means to entertain yourself. Those huge areas serve no purpose but to be there for the sake of being huge. Remove main-story and you have combat that is set in stone. By this I mean that you cant have different in nature combat. No stealth-way, no snipe-em-from-afar way, no let's-set-a-trap way. You just enter combat mode and basically all freedom you have is to fight more or less efficiently. By itself this combat system is in no way inferior or anything like that. Actually combat system in Skyrim more or less sucks, esp. for melee. But it does has freedom and many many ways to deal with situations. You can't create your mini-stories in DAI. I mean, you can, but you can as well just close the game, take pen and paper and write it down, because you can't play it in DAI. There is main-story and shitty side-activities what consists only of running, fighting non-immersive fights and sonar-pinging, that's it. There is no means to do that differently. Fights can be engaging and interesting if you are on rails of story and have reason to fight those enemies. If you are out on the open air and you know that the only reason this bear is here is for you to fight him... well, I, personally, lost all the interest in bears soon enough. It is anything but immersive. In Skyrim bears are part of local biome, they can chase deers, they have lairs, there are things in their lairs that can hint you about this particular bears story(!), making some fcking generic bear special. So basically, Skyrim has huge areas and toys and you can immerse yourself in with activities around this toys (of corse, under condition that it is somewhat your thing). DAI has huge areas and doesn't have toys and you can like combat however much you can, but it is one and only thing you can do there. What there else? Puzzles? They can be interesting ONCE and if are not repeatative. Also god save you form banter bug, final blow to question why you are out there at all?
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Post by bizantura on Sept 6, 2017 8:58:41 GMT
Bioware : sandbox game with good romances and character interactions rapped up in a great overall story arc. Sauced up by mainly fetch quests.
Elder scroll series : sandbox game with so many little quests to carve out your own hero interests. Not much overall story arc. Interactions and romances limited.
Witcher series : best of both worlds put together in a sandbox game. Limited in the story, romance and character interactions due to be based on books.
I do wonder what CDPR will do in next games without the constraints of a game based on books. Will their character creator cause a ruckus? Romance options total American westernized or more in lockstep with the culture this game publisher works from?
I hope no publisher has to deal with such an emotional fickle audience like Bioware's although the overboard about something is always very entertaining.
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Post by river82 on Sept 6, 2017 10:06:38 GMT
Bioware : sandbox game with good romances and character interactions rapped up in a great overall story arc. Sauced up by mainly fetch quests. Elder scroll series : sandbox game with so many little quests to carve out your own hero interests. Not much overall story arc. Interactions and romances limited. Witcher series : best of both worlds put together in a sandbox game. Limited in the story, romance and character interactions due to be based on books. I do wonder what CDPR will do in next games without the constraints of a game based on books. Will their character creator cause a ruckus? Romance options total American westernized or more in lockstep with the culture this game publisher works from? I hope no publisher has to deal with such an emotional fickle audience like Bioware's although the overboard about something is always very entertaining. Bioware doesn't make sandbox games. Sandbox games are those where you are free to roam, interact, and generally do whatever you want in a world. There's typically no real important objective to be completing. Elder Scrolls are sandbox games because people sometimes choose to obtain a house, furniture, and generally just live in that world for a little while. Bioware worlds are not sandbox because players are generally driven by quests in their worlds.
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Post by steamshipman on Sept 6, 2017 11:24:11 GMT
the motivation for both comes largely from the player. But DAI has a central narrative which gives everything the inquisitor context and drive. Skyrim...doesn't. I understand that. But in DAI central narrative gives "everything the inquisitor context and drive" only in narrative related missions. Those huge areas do not serve narrative, they add nothing of substance. The only thing that they do to central narrative is obstructing it, standing on its way and (for me) watering it down to imperceptible degree. The only way side activities in those areas can be "the inquisitor context and drive" is if player, with the help of huge ton of personal efforts to imagine things, actively tries to headcannon any meaning into them. Because the game itself doesn't do that in any worthy way. So I imagine someone can like DAI open world only under condition that he likes the game story/companions so much, that the bleak shadow it casts on those areas somehow in their eyes makes those areas not that blank monotonous stupidity it really is. Sorry for far from perfect wording, my English isn't good.
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Post by abaris on Sept 6, 2017 11:34:16 GMT
So I imagine someone can like DAI open world only under condition that he likes the game story/companions so much, that the bleak shadow it casts on those areas somehow in their eyes makes those areas not that blank monotonous stupidity it really is. And yet the open worlds are more interesting for the simple reason they aren't lifeless and bland. Maybe except the Hissing Wastes. They are about the only place comparable to the deserts MEA comes up with. But the Dwarfen Tombs at least provide interesting loot.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 12:36:53 GMT
Bioware : sandbox game with good romances and character interactions rapped up in a great overall story arc. Sauced up by mainly fetch quests. Elder scroll series : sandbox game with so many little quests to carve out your own hero interests. Not much overall story arc. Interactions and romances limited. Witcher series : best of both worlds put together in a sandbox game. Limited in the story, romance and character interactions due to be based on books. I do wonder what CDPR will do in next games without the constraints of a game based on books. Will their character creator cause a ruckus? Romance options total American westernized or more in lockstep with the culture this game publisher works from? I hope no publisher has to deal with such an emotional fickle audience like Bioware's although the overboard about something is always very entertaining. Bioware doesn't make sandbox games. Sandbox games are those where you are free to roam, interact, and generally do whatever you want in a world. There's typically no real important objective to be completing. Elder Scrolls are sandbox games because people sometimes choose to obtain a house, furniture, and generally just live in that world for a little while. Bioware worlds are not sandbox because players are generally driven by quests in their worlds. And there was the problem for both DAI and MEA. Bioware was so influenced by Skyrim, they tried to incorporate Skyrim elements without fully understanding what set Skyrim apart. Hell, Bioware still seems allergic to dynamic weather and day and night cycles.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 12:40:59 GMT
the motivation for both comes largely from the player. But DAI has a central narrative which gives everything the inquisitor context and drive. Skyrim...doesn't. I understand that. But in DAI central narrative gives "everything the inquisitor context and drive" only in narrative related missions. Those huge areas do not serve narrative, they add nothing of substance. The only thing that they do to central narrative is obstructing it, standing on its way and (for me) watering it down to imperceptible degree. The only way side activities in those areas can be "the inquisitor context and drive" is if player, with the help of huge ton of personal efforts to imagine things, actively tries to headcannon any meaning into them. Because the game itself doesn't do that in any worthy way. So I imagine someone can like DAI open world only under condition that he likes the game story/companions so much, that the bleak shadow it casts on those areas somehow in their eyes makes those areas not that blank monotonous stupidity it really is. Sorry for far from perfect wording, my English isn't good. Not to mention why the leader of such a large organization would be out picking elfroot and other menial tasks.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 6, 2017 12:42:05 GMT
Bioware doesn't make sandbox games. Sandbox games are those where you are free to roam, interact, and generally do whatever you want in a world. There's typically no real important objective to be completing. Elder Scrolls are sandbox games because people sometimes choose to obtain a house, furniture, and generally just live in that world for a little while. Bioware worlds are not sandbox because players are generally driven by quests in their worlds. And there was the problem for both DAI and MEA. Bioware was so influenced by Skyrim, they tried to incorporate Skyrim elements without fully understanding what set Skyrim apart. Hell, Bioware still seems allergic to dynamic weather and day and night cycles. Bethesda games are unique. There are not a lot of games that actually do dynamic weather it's not just BioWare.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 12:44:10 GMT
And there was the problem for both DAI and MEA. Bioware was so influenced by Skyrim, they tried to incorporate Skyrim elements without fully understanding what set Skyrim apart. Hell, Bioware still seems allergic to dynamic weather and day and night cycles. Bethesda games are unique. There are not a lot of games that actually do dynamic weather it's not just BioWare. Witcher 3 does it and so does GTAV.
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Post by abaris on Sept 6, 2017 12:45:54 GMT
Hell, Bioware still seems allergic to dynamic weather and day and night cycles. Far as I understand it, it's the engine. It's an engine designed for FPS. And I don't think it's even necessary, given their kind of games. The open worlds aren't real open worlds but rather open maps. What would be necessary and what has been handled in a better way in DAI than in MEA, is giving the maps the semblance of being alive. In MEA there's hardly anything going on and NPCs have all the charms of telephone poles. In DAI there's at least some kind of movement and development, which makes the maps a little bit more interesting.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 14:52:35 GMT
Hell, Bioware still seems allergic to dynamic weather and day and night cycles. Far as I understand it, it's the engine. It's an engine designed for FPS. And I don't think it's even necessary, given their kind of games. The open worlds aren't real open worlds but rather open maps. What would be necessary and what has been handled in a better way in DAI than in MEA, is giving the maps the semblance of being alive. In MEA there's hardly anything going on and NPCs have all the charms of telephone poles. In DAI there's at least some kind of movement and development, which makes the maps a little bit more interesting. Witcher 3 also has open maps so to speak. You have the main Novigrad/Velen map, Kaer Morhen, Skellige, and White Orchard. People in those maps are not "telephone polls" but rather people with daily activities and such. They even react to you and such. It seems like the worlds of Witcher 3 and GTAV were made with the wholw world in mind and the player just a small spec in it. With MEA and DAI, the world was made to fit the player. Hell, Shenmue on the Dreamcast had a more interactive and reactive world than DAI and MEA and that game is nearly 20 years old!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 14:58:50 GMT
the motivation for both comes largely from the player. But DAI has a central narrative which gives everything the inquisitor context and drive. Skyrim...doesn't. I understand that. But in DAI central narrative gives "everything the inquisitor context and drive" only in narrative related missions. Those huge areas do not serve narrative, they add nothing of substance. The only thing that they do to central narrative is obstructing it, standing on its way and (for me) watering it down to imperceptible degree. The only way side activities in those areas can be "the inquisitor context and drive" is if player, with the help of huge ton of personal efforts to imagine things, actively tries to headcannon any meaning into them. Because the game itself doesn't do that in any worthy way. So I imagine someone can like DAI open world only under condition that he likes the game story/companions so much, that the bleak shadow it casts on those areas somehow in their eyes makes those areas not that blank monotonous stupidity it really is. Sorry for far from perfect wording, my English isn't good. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. It is true that DAI doesn't hand you a list of assignments from a superior, but with the exception of DAO's treaties, the DA games were never that way. Your character doesn't have assignments handed down from on high, because your character is the ultimate authority of the Inquisition, and playing that role is on you. Other content is there for you to discover... or not. DAI doesn't hold your hand and tell you what to do step-by-step. It gives you a role (that of the Inquisitor) and a world to influence (bring under the Inquisition) and then mostly gets out of the way and allows you to get on with it. There are some scenarios set up in the world that allow you to investigate and figure out what happened there - all of which is part of the story being told. Personally, I do most of the content in the Hinterlands before I go to Val Royeaux. My Inquisitors typically want to bring a measure of stability and security to at least one area before she goes to try to make a case for herself with Chantry officials. I would agree that there are more/bigger maps than needed, and the constant bear battles get pretty old pretty quickly. I'd like to be able to zip by enemies on my mount without having to go into combat mode so frequently. I also think the enemy detection range is much too big; there have been a number of times I've wanted to fast travel from an area but the game would not allow it because there was an enemy in range (which I had no intention or desire to engage).
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 15:04:32 GMT
I understand that. But in DAI central narrative gives "everything the inquisitor context and drive" only in narrative related missions. Those huge areas do not serve narrative, they add nothing of substance. The only thing that they do to central narrative is obstructing it, standing on its way and (for me) watering it down to imperceptible degree. The only way side activities in those areas can be "the inquisitor context and drive" is if player, with the help of huge ton of personal efforts to imagine things, actively tries to headcannon any meaning into them. Because the game itself doesn't do that in any worthy way. So I imagine someone can like DAI open world only under condition that he likes the game story/companions so much, that the bleak shadow it casts on those areas somehow in their eyes makes those areas not that blank monotonous stupidity it really is. Sorry for far from perfect wording, my English isn't good. Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. It is true that DAI doesn't hand you a list of assignments from a superior, but with the exception of DAO's treaties, the DA games were never that way. Your character doesn't have assignments handed down from on high, because your character is the ultimate authority of the Inquisition, and playing that role is on you. Other content is there for you to discover... or not. DAI doesn't hold your hand and tell you what to do step-by-step. It gives you a role (that of the Inquisitor) and a world to influence (bring under the Inquisition) and then mostly gets out of the way and allows you to get on with it. There are some scenarios set up in the world that allow you to investigate and figure out what happened there - all of which is part of the story being told. Personally, I do most of the content in the Hinterlands before I go to Val Royeaux. My Inquisitors typically want to bring a measure of stability and security to at least one area before she goes to try to make a case for herself with Chantry officials. I would agree that there are more/bigger maps than needed, and the constant bear battles get pretty old pretty quickly. I'd like to be able to zip by enemies on my mount without having to go into combat mode so frequently. I also think the enemy detection range is much too big; there have been a number of times I've wanted to fast travel from an area but the game would not allow it because there was an enemy in range (which I had no intention or desire to engage). So if you are the ultimate authority in DAI, why is the ultimate authority out doing menial task that should be delegated down to the lowest level? Also I would say that Skyrim is the game that doesn't hold your hand because the world is set up to allow you to really roleplay and make your own story. You can marry, hunt, buy houses, kill nps, join guilds etc. None of which you can do in DAI.
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Post by abaris on Sept 6, 2017 15:17:09 GMT
People in those maps are not "telephone polls" but rather people with daily activities and such. And that's the real problem I have with the Bioware design. Not dynamic weather or day/night cycles, since you don't spend that much time on a single map anyway. It's a bit better in DAI than it is in MEA. In MEA they're just frozen to one spot or go through the same set of scripted motions. Such as the drunk girl on Prodromos or the figures in the labs constantly checking their scanners even while they're talking to the player. In DAI there is at least some kind of life showing progress. Such as groups of settlers sitting around campfires and some even engaging in combat. Still a far cry from games like Skyrim or the Fallout series, but better than what MEA comes up with.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 15:19:32 GMT
Bioware : sandbox game with good romances and character interactions rapped up in a great overall story arc. Sauced up by mainly fetch quests. Elder scroll series : sandbox game with so many little quests to carve out your own hero interests. Not much overall story arc. Interactions and romances limited. Witcher series : best of both worlds put together in a sandbox game. Limited in the story, romance and character interactions due to be based on books. I do wonder what CDPR will do in next games without the constraints of a game based on books. Will their character creator cause a ruckus? Romance options total American westernized or more in lockstep with the culture this game publisher works from? I hope no publisher has to deal with such an emotional fickle audience like Bioware's although the overboard about something is always very entertaining. Bioware doesn't make sandbox games. Sandbox games are those where you are free to roam, interact, and generally do whatever you want in a world. There's typically no real important objective to be completing. Elder Scrolls are sandbox games because people sometimes choose to obtain a house, furniture, and generally just live in that world for a little while. Bioware worlds are not sandbox because players are generally driven by quests in their worlds. The other things that really differentiate Bethesda worlds are the character mechanics, lore, and how they treat followers. Bethesda games offer a lot of non-combat skills (crafting, speech, etc.) your character can develop, and plenty of ways to make (or save) money. Characters aren't class-limited in terms of the kinds of combat skills they can develop and utilize. There's a much broader range of morality (you can kill non-combatants), and quite a few different factions you can join - or not. So, yeah - huge differences there.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 6, 2017 15:31:31 GMT
Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with this. It is true that DAI doesn't hand you a list of assignments from a superior, but with the exception of DAO's treaties, the DA games were never that way. Your character doesn't have assignments handed down from on high, because your character is the ultimate authority of the Inquisition, and playing that role is on you. Other content is there for you to discover... or not. DAI doesn't hold your hand and tell you what to do step-by-step. It gives you a role (that of the Inquisitor) and a world to influence (bring under the Inquisition) and then mostly gets out of the way and allows you to get on with it. There are some scenarios set up in the world that allow you to investigate and figure out what happened there - all of which is part of the story being told. Personally, I do most of the content in the Hinterlands before I go to Val Royeaux. My Inquisitors typically want to bring a measure of stability and security to at least one area before she goes to try to make a case for herself with Chantry officials. I would agree that there are more/bigger maps than needed, and the constant bear battles get pretty old pretty quickly. I'd like to be able to zip by enemies on my mount without having to go into combat mode so frequently. I also think the enemy detection range is much too big; there have been a number of times I've wanted to fast travel from an area but the game would not allow it because there was an enemy in range (which I had no intention or desire to engage). So if you are the ultimate authority in DAI, why is the ultimate authority out doing menial task that should be delegated down to the lowest level? Whether a task is "menial" is in the eyes of the player - as is how you interpret the role of the Inquisitor or Pathfinder. The games provide some basic minimal idea of what these roles are all about, but generally leave it up to you to decide what kinds of activities are in their purview. The only things you're required to do are the things that advance the main storyline. Everything else is optional. If you deem resource gathering to be beneath your character, don't do it. The Inquisitor can send teams to gather resources from the War Table if you so desire, and Apex teams will gather gear, resources, and research for the Pathfinder. Yes, Skyrim offers a world and a set of mechanics that invites you to do whatever you wish in it, filled with shallow NPCs that serve a specific purpose. BioWare games offer a cinematic branching narrative in a world filled with rich, well-developed characters, and just enough role-play space to make the PC your own.
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0
1,958
majesticjazz
2,015
January 2017
majesticjazz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 15:34:45 GMT
So if you are the ultimate authority in DAI, why is the ultimate authority out doing menial task that should be delegated down to the lowest level? Whether a task is "menial" is in the eyes of the player - as is how you interpret the role of the Inquisitor or Pathfinder. The games provide some basic minimal idea of what these roles are all about, but generally leave it up to you to decide what kinds of activities are in their purview. The only things you're required to do are the things that advance the main storyline. Everything else is optional. If you deem resource gathering to be beneath your character, don't do it. The Inquisitor can send teams to gather resources from the War Table if you so desire, and Apex teams will gather gear, resources, and research for the Pathfinder. Yes, Skyrim offers a world and a set of mechanics that invites you to do whatever you wish in it, filled with shallow NPCs that serve a specific purpose. BioWare games offer a cinematic branching narrative in a world filled with rich, well-developed characters, and just enough role-play space to make the PC your own. The Pathfinder is fine because you are slightly taking orders from the Nexus leadership, but in DAI you ARE the leadership. That is like Jien Garson going out to collect minerals. Doesnt she have far more pressing matters to do?
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inherit
2550
0
1,958
majesticjazz
2,015
January 2017
majesticjazz
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 6, 2017 15:36:25 GMT
So if you are the ultimate authority in DAI, why is the ultimate authority out doing menial task that should be delegated down to the lowest level? Whether a task is "menial" is in the eyes of the player - as is how you interpret the role of the Inquisitor or Pathfinder. The games provide some basic minimal idea of what these roles are all about, but generally leave it up to you to decide what kinds of activities are in their purview. The only things you're required to do are the things that advance the main storyline. Everything else is optional. If you deem resource gathering to be beneath your character, don't do it. The Inquisitor can send teams to gather resources from the War Table if you so desire, and Apex teams will gather gear, resources, and research for the Pathfinder. Yes, Skyrim offers a world and a set of mechanics that invites you to do whatever you wish in it, filled with shallow NPCs that serve a specific purpose. BioWare games offer a cinematic branching narrative in a world filled with rich, well-developed characters, and just enough role-play space to make the PC your own. Outside of main quest, DAI was light on cinematic.
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