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Post by abaris on Sept 2, 2017 21:45:15 GMT
The quarian ark hint at the end felt like an obvious DLC hook. The Garsen murder and benefactor are big unresolved plot threads but they felt more like they were forgotten about rather than anything else. Ryder's mother felt to me like an upbeat note to end the game on for the Ryders, not something intended for DLC. What do you mean by forgotten? If the forgot to resolve these quests, it would be the revelation are of storytelling. As far as Quarians go, there were hints at the end of the game, yes, but there hasn't been a quest. And by the way, most of us can imagine how that plotline would have looked like. Lost in space, Ketts on board to do what Kett are good at, kill Kett, free Quarians.
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Post by Qolx on Sept 2, 2017 21:55:32 GMT
You mean like how Mass Effect: Andromeda pissed off a massive segment of the fans? Honestly, you people keep using this argument but so far you haven't been able to specify exactly what would make them mad. Yeah, getting rid of the endings might hurt a bit for the 10 people who actually liked them (just like how the 10 people who actually chose all-human councils at the end of ME1 were hurt when the Council were still 3/4 aliens in ME2), but then all of a sudden you have a perfectly playable Milky Way galaxy again, just waiting to be filled with things they can enjoy. They did this back in Kotor 2 when they reduced Revan's liberation/conquest of the galaxy in Kotor 1 to a few dialogue lines and cameos so the game wouldn't have to account for whether the Republic or the Sith is in control of the galaxy, but I don't recall people bitching and moaning about that. i have specified what would make them mad. Some people liked the endings. Some people would view it as a cop out. And now since a lot of people really enjoyed Andromeda it would be ANOTHER cop out. Plus Bioware would be breaking two promises at the core of their company which Bioware said they are unwilling to break. Besides i don't think most people realize that any sequel to ME 3 wouldn't be a sequel at all. It would be just as weak and pathetic as Andromeda was. New story. New protagonist. New characters. Likely a new tone. You claimed " Mass Effect Andromeda was BioWare's best story to date". Your logic says the next ME would be just as good or even better!
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 2, 2017 22:00:56 GMT
Here's the thing about Mass Effect "fans"... They love their canon. Both Bioware CANON and their own personal canon. That's part of the reason some were angry about Andromeda before we got our first trailer. The whole Andromeda Initiative being unmentioned in the OT upsets some of the most vocal detractors here, as well as the technology that allowed the journey, the ODSY drive. People still bicker about that because they don't see how it's possible/canon if it's not mentioned in the OT. So then you want to take something that IS canon, the Starchild and the three (four) choices and hand-wave them away and have people be fine with it? Lol.
Some will be fine with it. Some will be angry at changing canon. Some will be angry at abandoning Andromeda. It's a super shitty situation.
But anyone suggesting that many fans would not be upset about a chosen canon ending for the OT, especially after Casey and Bioware PROMISED they would not do that, is blind to the fanbase and has really just not paid attention to the last 5 years.
How many would choose the "lesser" evil of a canon ending over an Andromeda sequel? Hard to say. However, the problem is really that fans at this point care a little too much about their truth and what they want over what is good for the franchise.
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Post by traks on Sept 2, 2017 22:12:43 GMT
Here's the thing about Mass Effect "fans"... They love their canon. Both Bioware CANON and their own personal canon. That's part of the reason some were angry about Andromeda before we got our first trailer. The whole Andromeda Initiative being unmentioned in the OT upsets some of the most vocal detractors here, as well as the technology that allowed the journey, the ODSY drive. People still bicker about that because they don't see how it's possible/canon if it's not mentioned in the OT. So then you want to take something that IS canon, the Starchild and the three (four) choices and hand-wave them away and have people be fine with it? Lol. Some will be fine with it. Some will be angry at changing canon. Some will be angry at abandoning Andromeda. It's a super shitty situation. But anyone suggesting that many fans would not be upset about a chosen canon ending for the OT, especially after Casey and Bioware PROMISED they would not do that, is blind to the fanbase and has really just not paid attention to the last 5 years. How many would choose the "lesser" evil of a canon ending over an Andromeda sequel? Hard to say. However, the problem is really that fans at this point care a little too much about their truth and what they want over what is good for the franchise. No ending would be declared canon though. They are parallel universes and we played till the point where the timeline changes.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 2, 2017 22:31:37 GMT
Here's the thing about Mass Effect "fans"... They love their canon. Both Bioware CANON and their own personal canon. That's part of the reason some were angry about Andromeda before we got our first trailer. The whole Andromeda Initiative being unmentioned in the OT upsets some of the most vocal detractors here, as well as the technology that allowed the journey, the ODSY drive. People still bicker about that because they don't see how it's possible/canon if it's not mentioned in the OT. So then you want to take something that IS canon, the Starchild and the three (four) choices and hand-wave them away and have people be fine with it? Lol. Some will be fine with it. Some will be angry at changing canon. Some will be angry at abandoning Andromeda. It's a super shitty situation. But anyone suggesting that many fans would not be upset about a chosen canon ending for the OT, especially after Casey and Bioware PROMISED they would not do that, is blind to the fanbase and has really just not paid attention to the last 5 years. How many would choose the "lesser" evil of a canon ending over an Andromeda sequel? Hard to say. However, the problem is really that fans at this point care a little too much about their truth and what they want over what is good for the franchise. No ending would be declared canon though. They are parallel universes and we played till the point where the timeline changes. . Hmmm? I might have missed that part of the discussion. Explain please?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2017 22:35:55 GMT
Here's the thing about Mass Effect "fans"... They love their canon. Both Bioware CANON and their own personal canon. That's part of the reason some were angry about Andromeda before we got our first trailer. The whole Andromeda Initiative being unmentioned in the OT upsets some of the most vocal detractors here, as well as the technology that allowed the journey, the ODSY drive. People still bicker about that because they don't see how it's possible/canon if it's not mentioned in the OT. So then you want to take something that IS canon, the Starchild and the three (four) choices and hand-wave them away and have people be fine with it? Lol. Some will be fine with it. Some will be angry at changing canon. Some will be angry at abandoning Andromeda. It's a super shitty situation. But anyone suggesting that many fans would not be upset about a chosen canon ending for the OT, especially after Casey and Bioware PROMISED they would not do that, is blind to the fanbase and has really just not paid attention to the last 5 years. How many would choose the "lesser" evil of a canon ending over an Andromeda sequel? Hard to say. However, the problem is really that fans at this point care a little too much about their truth and what they want over what is good for the franchise. No ending would be declared canon though. They are parallel universes and we played till the point where the timeline changes. That wouldn't matter for most people. Let's say Control was chosen to have ME4 take place in. There will be many who chose Control seeing that as confirmation their choice was the right one and use that to bash those who chose Destroy, Synthesis, or Refuse which will further alienate those players with that decision. Same goes with whatever ending is chosen. The only way it would be seen as a parallel universe would be if Bioware released a separate game for each of the endings which won't happen. And this is just the Crucible choice. There are other huge things that would have to be determined like the fate of the krogan, rachni, geth, quarians, etc.
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Post by traks on Sept 2, 2017 22:38:17 GMT
No ending would be declared canon though. They are parallel universes and we played till the point where the timeline changes. . Hmmm? I might have missed that part of the discussion. Explain please? What's to explain there? We played Shepard, Shepard had a choice which changes the galaxy. So from there on we have four parallel universes from which BioWare could choose from if they wanted to do another game in the Milky Way. All endings are equally valid, so a sequel based on one would just be a story in one of the parallel universes. Doesn't mean that the endings not used for that game are declared non-canon. The potential to also tell a story out of another parallel universe would always be there.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 2, 2017 22:41:28 GMT
While they could certainly fuck up the story like they did ME:A, the setting is already tried and true. It's also worn out and changed. MET's setting was devised for the stories they wanted to tell there, which have been told. The quarian/geth conflict has been resolved, the asari beacon outted, the genophage cured (maybe), the rachni saved or not, and some form of r/g/b dispersed. Whatever they did post reaper war would be in a different setting than MET's. You mention Leliana several times, but that's one single character - not an entire setting. And the setting that was MET's Milky Way no longer exists in the state that it was prior to ME3. It isn't just ME3's endings they'd have to retcon to set another game in TMW - they'd also have to override everyone's headcanon of where the galaxy went from there, how they rebuilt, what's different and how it's different, etc. As much as I enjoyed the trilogy, I'm not sure I'd be willing to allow them to do that, thus my interest in it would be awfully low. You can't go home. It's not the same.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 2, 2017 22:44:07 GMT
. Hmmm? I might have missed that part of the discussion. Explain please? What's to explain there? We played Shepard, Shepard had a choice which changes the galaxy. So from there on we have four parallel universes from which BioWare could choose from if they wanted to do another game in the Milky Way. All endings are equally valid, so a sequel based on one would just be a story in one of the parallel universes. Doesn't mean that the endings not used for that game are declared non-canon. The potential to also tell a story out of another parallel universe would always be there. Ooh, sorry. Yes. The problem is that you are using actual logic, not "gamer" logic. Gamers love canon and their choice, and if you say "yeah, but your choice isn't the right choice" by making the next game based on a different choice than yours, people get upset.
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Post by traks on Sept 2, 2017 22:45:06 GMT
No ending would be declared canon though. They are parallel universes and we played till the point where the timeline changes. That wouldn't matter for most people. Let's say Control was chosen to have ME4 take place in. There will be many who chose Control seeing that as confirmation their choice was the right one and use that to bash those who chose Destroy, Synthesis, or Refuse which will further alienate those players with that decision. Same goes with whatever ending is chosen. The only way it would be seen as a parallel universe would be if Bioware released a separate game for each of the endings which won't happen. And this is just the Crucible choice. There are other huge things that would have to be determined like the fate of the krogan, rachni, geth, quarians, etc. There is nothing to be seen as parallel universes, they are exactly that. The other choices only mean that the races don't play a big role in future games or the choices weren't as big as people make them out to be (an example: just because a Shepard doesn't let Mordin help the Krogan doesn't mean that another scientist won't at a later point in history - it is even pretty likely).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2017 22:50:52 GMT
That wouldn't matter for most people. Let's say Control was chosen to have ME4 take place in. There will be many who chose Control seeing that as confirmation their choice was the right one and use that to bash those who chose Destroy, Synthesis, or Refuse which will further alienate those players with that decision. Same goes with whatever ending is chosen. The only way it would be seen as a parallel universe would be if Bioware released a separate game for each of the endings which won't happen. And this is just the Crucible choice. There are other huge things that would have to be determined like the fate of the krogan, rachni, geth, quarians, etc. There is nothing to be seen as parallel universes, they are exactly that. The other choices only mean that the races don't play a big role in future games or the choices weren't as big as people make them out to be (an example: just because a Shepard doesn't let Mordin help the Krogan doesn't mean that another scientist won't at a later point in history - it is even pretty likely). Most people won't see it as that, unless as I said each ending gets its own game thus cementing that ending as canon as well. Having the races not play a big role after you spend a trilogy trying to save them is a giant slap to the face for those players. And yes the choices are as big as they are made out to be since the choices involve a species being completely wiped out.
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Post by traks on Sept 2, 2017 23:04:30 GMT
There is nothing to be seen as parallel universes, they are exactly that. The other choices only mean that the races don't play a big role in future games or the choices weren't as big as people make them out to be (an example: just because a Shepard doesn't let Mordin help the Krogan doesn't mean that another scientist won't at a later point in history - it is even pretty likely). Most people won't see it as that, unless as I said each ending gets its own game thus cementing that ending as canon as well. Having the races not play a big role after you spend a trilogy trying to save them is a giant slap to the face for those players. And yes the choices are as big as they are made out to be since the choices involve a species being completely wiped out. That's why we as players have to accept the consequences of such big choices. They just mean that those races can't be central for the next plot line/conflict in the Milky Way galaxy. BTW: other than the Geth no race can be sacrificed completely and they are built.
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Post by colfoley on Sept 2, 2017 23:11:20 GMT
i have specified what would make them mad. Some people liked the endings. Some people would view it as a cop out. And now since a lot of people really enjoyed Andromeda it would be ANOTHER cop out. Plus Bioware would be breaking two promises at the core of their company which Bioware said they are unwilling to break. Besides i don't think most people realize that any sequel to ME 3 wouldn't be a sequel at all. It would be just as weak and pathetic as Andromeda was. New story. New protagonist. New characters. Likely a new tone. You claimed " Mass Effect Andromeda was BioWare's best story to date". Your logic says the next ME would be just as good or even better! Two things. One i do not make that assumption. In fact the extreme reaction to Andromeda only proves that most likely any new ME game will be something i do not want. Or will actually wait to see if its good. Two. While i enjoyed the game, many of the things that people didn't would also would be in any new ME game. If people complain about the story of MEA boring and not being as epic then the next ME game will have that same problem unless they give us a direct sequel to Andromeda.
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 2, 2017 23:14:41 GMT
Most people won't see it as that, unless as I said each ending gets its own game thus cementing that ending as canon as well. Having the races not play a big role after you spend a trilogy trying to save them is a giant slap to the face for those players. And yes the choices are as big as they are made out to be since the choices involve a species being completely wiped out. That's why we as players have to accept the consequences of such big choices. They just mean that those races can't be central for the next plot line/conflict in the Milky Way galaxy. BTW: other than the Geth no race can be sacrificed completely and they are built. Aren't the Krogan thought to be pretty much decimated if the Genophage isn't cured and the bomb goes off, killing many of the females? I could be wrong. I mean, hey, you aren't wrong. You are spot on. The healthy and positive response is to accept that they will make the game they want and to just takes it for what it is: a game. However, I'm curious if anything on the forums have suggested to you that Bioware fans have a healthy attitude about accepting things.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Sept 2, 2017 23:16:07 GMT
Most people won't see it as that, unless as I said each ending gets its own game thus cementing that ending as canon as well. Having the races not play a big role after you spend a trilogy trying to save them is a giant slap to the face for those players. And yes the choices are as big as they are made out to be since the choices involve a species being completely wiped out. That's why we as players have to accept the consequences of such big choices. They just mean that those races can't be central for the next plot line/conflict in the Milky Way galaxy. BTW: other than the Geth no race can be sacrificed completely and they are built. So literally punish players for their choices? "Congratulations, you saved these people from extinction. But because some people didn't, you'll never see those people again." Yeah, that will go over well. Not true. There are also the quarians and the rachni. And depending on who leads the krogan they too can be wiped out.
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Post by suikoden on Sept 2, 2017 23:18:03 GMT
What's to explain there? We played Shepard, Shepard had a choice which changes the galaxy. So from there on we have four parallel universes from which BioWare could choose from if they wanted to do another game in the Milky Way. All endings are equally valid, so a sequel based on one would just be a story in one of the parallel universes. Doesn't mean that the endings not used for that game are declared non-canon. The potential to also tell a story out of another parallel universe would always be there. Ooh, sorry. Yes. The problem is that you are using actual logic, not "gamer" logic. Gamers love canon and their choice, and if you say "yeah, but your choice isn't the right choice" by making the next game based on a different choice than yours, people get upset. They'd get more upset if they have to play as Ryder again in Andromeda 2: SpaceSex Boogaloo
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 2, 2017 23:25:23 GMT
Ooh, sorry. Yes. The problem is that you are using actual logic, not "gamer" logic. Gamers love canon and their choice, and if you say "yeah, but your choice isn't the right choice" by making the next game based on a different choice than yours, people get upset. They'd get more upset if they have to play as Ryder again in Andromeda 2: SpaceSex Boogaloo I wasn't aware that you had been named emissary of the fans who hate Andromeda. Congrats! Those meetings must be lots of fun. How do they choose the leader? Is it like a battle royal, vote, or who can bitch the longest on something they haven't experienced? I'm guessing it's a lot of white guys talking about how they have been discriminated against. 😂
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 2, 2017 23:32:18 GMT
Ooh, sorry. Yes. The problem is that you are using actual logic, not "gamer" logic. Gamers love canon and their choice, and if you say "yeah, but your choice isn't the right choice" by making the next game based on a different choice than yours, people get upset. They'd get more upset if they have to play as Ryder again in Andromeda 2: SpaceSex Boogaloo In hindsight, I see why the franchise is on "ice" now. BioWare is caught in a rock and hard place, right now with its fanbase. If they go back to the MW, it goes against there reason on why they left in the first place. The fact that BioWare didn't even try to win back the fans with sp dlc and didn't even consider AC:Unity's route with free dlc as a goodwill jester. It shows there ready to move on or at least maybe remaster the trilogy (with Frostbite 3 and new ending); which had been discussed before MEA even had's its first gameplay reveal. Ironically, it was said almost to the year BioWare confirmed no dlc and Gamble's Twitter post not saying the word Andromeda when all he said was Mass Effect Universe.
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Post by traks on Sept 2, 2017 23:32:50 GMT
That's why we as players have to accept the consequences of such big choices. They just mean that those races can't be central for the next plot line/conflict in the Milky Way galaxy. BTW: other than the Geth no race can be sacrificed completely and they are built. So literally punish players for their choices? "Congratulations, you saved these people from extinction. But because some people didn't, you'll never see those people again." Yeah, that will go over well. Not true. There are also the quarians and the rachni. And depending on who leads the krogan they too can be wiped out. Not all Quarians are directly involved in the Geth/Quarian war and the Geth surely won't search the whole Galaxy to kill every Quarian on sight. The Genophage controls birth rates and just because you decide to sabotage Mordin's cure doesn't mean that the Krogan will magically not be interested to find a cure anymore. Sigh, Shepard is just one human, don't take yourself too serious. A Rachni queen was cloned for ME3 even if you killed the Queen in ME1, so who am I to declare them extinct when we have in-game proof of the opposite? Big choices leading to races not being central for the next plot is no punishment, it's a logical consequence. But again: I don't even think that BioWare will go this route (and I want to continue in Andromeda for now). It's just a possibility they created, which apparently isn't as well regarded though by many including you.
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Post by themikefest on Sept 2, 2017 23:33:46 GMT
Yes. Your choices matter. NOT. If they can ignore that Garrus doesn't have to be recruited in ME1, but knows Kirrahe, if he survived ME1, by name, if taken to Sur'Kesh, then Bioware can ignore any choice they want in the trilogy. Doesn't matter if the choice is insignificant, its still a choice
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Post by suikoden on Sept 2, 2017 23:36:59 GMT
They'd get more upset if they have to play as Ryder again in Andromeda 2: SpaceSex Boogaloo I wasn't aware that you had been named emissary of the fans who hate Andromeda. Congrats! Those meetings must be lots of fun. How do they choose the leader? Is it like a battle royal, vote, or who can bitch the longest on something they haven't experienced? I'm guessing it's a lot of white guys talking about how they have been discriminated against. 😂 See, here's the thing - there's no DLC. The studio that made the game is no more. The director for the game, is no more. The GM that oversaw everything is gone. Mac Walters has disappeared from the face of the earth. It's the first Bioware game, in probably forever (if we don't count Sonic) that is getting no DLC. But it's getting books! And a bunch of devs that worked on the game are no longer even with the company. There's clearly way more people that hated Andromeda than were fans. But there's a bunch of you on this forum that love the game! Although a lot of the regulars are starting to disappear - because they can read the writing on the wall, but some of you are illiterate to the mounting evidence that Andromeda will never, ever be revisited again (not counting the books!)
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 2, 2017 23:45:34 GMT
I wasn't aware that you had been named emissary of the fans who hate Andromeda. Congrats! Those meetings must be lots of fun. How do they choose the leader? Is it like a battle royal, vote, or who can bitch the longest on something they haven't experienced? I'm guessing it's a lot of white guys talking about how they have been discriminated against. 😂 See, here's the thing - there's no DLC. The studio that made the game is no more. The director for the game, is no more. The GM that oversaw everything is gone. Mac Walters has disappeared from the face of the earth. It's the first Bioware game, in probably forever (if we don't count Sonic) that is getting no DLC. But it's getting books! And a bunch of devs that worked on the game are no longer even with the company. There's clearly way more people that hated Andromeda than were fans. But there's a bunch of you on this forum that love the game! Although a lot of the regulars are starting to disappear - because they can read the writing on the wall, but some of you are illiterate to the mounting evidence that Andromeda will never, ever be revisited again (not counting the books!) Maybe Andromeda won't be revisited. But I'm still not sure more people would be upset with another MEA game than the destruction of canon and player choices for an OT sequel. You might be too young to remember, but part of why people were so upset with the ending was that they didn't take any of the player's previous decisions into account. So doing the same thing would probably not garner good will.
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Post by Andrew Waples on Sept 2, 2017 23:56:15 GMT
I wasn't aware that you had been named emissary of the fans who hate Andromeda. Congrats! Those meetings must be lots of fun. How do they choose the leader? Is it like a battle royal, vote, or who can bitch the longest on something they haven't experienced? I'm guessing it's a lot of white guys talking about how they have been discriminated against. 😂 See, here's the thing - there's no DLC. The studio that made the game is no more. The director for the game, is no more. The GM that oversaw everything is gone. Mac Walters has disappeared from the face of the earth. It's the first Bioware game, in probably forever (if we don't count Sonic) that is getting no DLC. But it's getting books! And a bunch of devs that worked on the game are no longer even with the company. There's clearly way more people that hated Andromeda than were fans. But there's a bunch of you on this forum that love the game! Although a lot of the regulars are starting to disappear - because they can read the writing on the wall, but some of you are illiterate to the mounting evidence that Andromeda will never, ever be revisited again (not counting the books!)What evidence? Even Jason never said anything that Andromeda 2 will never happen. All he said was the franchise was on "ice" for now. No one has explicitly stated that were never going back to Andromeda-at least for now.
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maximusarael020
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maximusarael020
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
MaximusArael020
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Post by maximusarael020 on Sept 2, 2017 23:56:44 GMT
I think the main thing that detractors are unwilling to accept our realize is that Andromeda was not a "failure" due to setting. The complaints were mostly animations, glitches, CC, poor antagonist, mediocre writing, lack-luster quest design, uninteresting dialogue, and lack of impactful choices. Suiko, anything I'm missing? Contact the Legion and let me know.
So to continue in Andromeda they just need a MEA2 that fixes those issues. If MEA2 is a 9.5/10, GOTY blockbuster of a game, the fandom will buy it. Gamers will buy it. If it's a great Mass Effect game, things will be forgiven. It doesn't need to be in the MW to be a great Mass Effect game.
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Glorious Star Lord
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KaiserShep
Party like it's 2023!
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August 2016
kaisershep
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by KaiserShep on Sept 3, 2017 0:11:24 GMT
There are bigger fish to fry as far as unresolved plots go. Garssen murder or benefactor. Both have been active quests. Quarian ark and Ryder's mom haven't. The quarian ark hint at the end felt like an obvious DLC hook. The Garsen murder and benefactor are big unresolved plot threads but they felt more like they were forgotten about rather than anything else. Ryder's mother felt to me like an upbeat note to end the game on for the Ryders, not something intended for DLC. I figured Garsen's death was more a "greater good" thing to cover up the reaper invasion so people don't flip out. Heck Ryder can't even talk about them with Scott. I was like "Noooo I can't bottle up this secret!" I do like though that one of the Angara figured this shit out in a letter to the Nexus, asking what it was the Initiative was running from.
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