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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 18, 2017 13:09:08 GMT
Any self-respecting company that wants to survive has to innovate and evolve over time. Just because gamers refuse to change, doesn't mean Bioware isn't allowed to. I respect their willingness to try to excel at other stuff immensely, and look forward to Anthem. And if it tanks...? Ah well, nice try (again). There is a difference between evolving cause that is what the consumers want versus evolving because the industry is trying to force it. Remember people were saying that motion controls were the future and the industry/consumers needed to evole? Well...how did that work out with the PS Move and Xbox Kinect?
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 18, 2017 15:23:23 GMT
Actually, when I bought XCOM 2 War of the Chosen recently I helped to create a demand for turn based strategy games on PC because demand is used in marketing to note how good or bad something is selling. We say there is a higher demand for MP focused games because those have a tendency to sell better right now than SP focused games. Things like Skyrim and The Witcher 3 are the exception here rather than the rule, because that statement never said that SP only games couldn't sell well. It doesn't really apply to gifts in this context because if EA offers me a free game on Origin I'm probably going to take it since it's free, even if I end up not playing it. Though I stand by my argument that unless BioWare is really going to step up their game in making a shooter(I would say ME3/Andromeda are pretty good, not amazing), they're still going to want their main target market they have a reputation for making games for. Obviously if they could step it up to amazing it wouldn't be needed. Blizzard had never made a FPS game before Overwatch and we all know how that worked out for them. The quantity of sales does not equate to demand. Demand for example was after the release of Halo 1. Gamers WANTED to play it online rather than just LAN and thus came Halo 2 with online MP. If ME3 never had MP, nobody would have complained. Cyberpunk 2077 will have MP, but nobody is really talking about it cause it is the SP that people want. Yes it does. In marketing the term demand does not refer to the idea of somebody specifically asking for you to do something but rather how many people are buying a particular good or service, usually at a particular price point. I've worked in marketing. That's literally how the term is used. You're thinking demand in terms of "I want this". The context its used in for marketing is more "supply vs demand".
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 18, 2017 15:26:43 GMT
The quantity of sales does not equate to demand. Demand for example was after the release of Halo 1. Gamers WANTED to play it online rather than just LAN and thus came Halo 2 with online MP. If ME3 never had MP, nobody would have complained. Cyberpunk 2077 will have MP, but nobody is really talking about it cause it is the SP that people want. You're only arguing one side of the story, what about the other side? Let's suppose Bioware decided to stick with SP experiences only. From there, how do they double their revenue? How do they increase EA shareholder value with increasing margins, or daily active users, or Metacritic scores, or name your favorite KPI? Where is the upside in staying with SP only? Answer: there isn't any, or at least, it's much more difficult to see how they get to double their current revenue by taking an SP path only. TBH, I think CDPR faces the same brick wall. If they continue to only do SP experiences, their growth path has a ceiling and they have already hit it. It's going to be very hard indeed to top TW3's performance.
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Post by Pounce de León on Sept 18, 2017 19:40:17 GMT
It's not one-dimensional. There is MP demand by players, else people wouldn't go crazy on stuff like PUBG. MP appeals to publishers because a loot grinder hooks people likely for longer and that means a chance for more after sale revenue. So they try to find a formula that appeals to that demand. Me3MP has pulled in quite a couple of SP, so why not use the rep for SP storytelling to do that on a larger scale? Im not sure it isnt one dimensional. Nobody was complaining about the lack of MP in ME1 and ME2. No Bioware fan was complaining about Bioware not making MP games. Yes, fans may have appreciated the addition to MP in games like GTA, RDR, ME3, Uncharted etc, but they were never demanding it. Fans would have been generally satisfied if ME3, RDR, GTA5, Uncharted, and Last of Us didnt have MP. It is just the publisher side of things that are pushing it on us cause it is a profit driver for them. They can sell us microtransactions and MP content is cheaper to make than SP content. Fans of Witcher 3 liked thr game based on its story and nobody wad saying it should have had MP. If there were a Witcher 4 and it had MP, people would play it and like it, but they never asked for it. They would be just as satisfied if it was SP only. There is a demand for MP, but it is driven by the industry, not the consumers. If a co-worker bought me a pizza for luncg, I would appreciate it and eat it, but I was not walking around asking my peers to buy me lunch. Me eating the pizza and appreciating it is not the same as me having a demand that my co-workers buys me pizza for lunch. There is quitre a number who buys games just for MP. Even Bioware games.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 19:53:23 GMT
The quantity of sales does not equate to demand. Demand for example was after the release of Halo 1. Gamers WANTED to play it online rather than just LAN and thus came Halo 2 with online MP. If ME3 never had MP, nobody would have complained. Cyberpunk 2077 will have MP, but nobody is really talking about it cause it is the SP that people want. You're only arguing one side of the story, what about the other side? Let's suppose Bioware decided to stick with SP experiences only. From there, how do they double their revenue? How do they increase EA shareholder value with increasing margins, or daily active users, or Metacritic scores, or name your favorite KPI? Where is the upside in staying with SP only? Answer: there isn't any, or at least, it's much more difficult to see how they get to double their current revenue by taking an SP path only. TBH, I think CDPR faces the same brick wall. If they continue to only do SP experiences, their growth path has a ceiling and they have already hit it. It's going to be very hard indeed to top TW3's performance. I thought they are doing MP as well for Cyberpunk for precisely that reason, and I seem to vaguely remember that they even got government grant for a new style of MP experience development.
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Post by Sanunes on Sept 18, 2017 19:54:24 GMT
Actually, when I bought XCOM 2 War of the Chosen recently I helped to create a demand for turn based strategy games on PC because demand is used in marketing to note how good or bad something is selling. We say there is a higher demand for MP focused games because those have a tendency to sell better right now than SP focused games. Things like Skyrim and The Witcher 3 are the exception here rather than the rule, because that statement never said that SP only games couldn't sell well. It doesn't really apply to gifts in this context because if EA offers me a free game on Origin I'm probably going to take it since it's free, even if I end up not playing it. Though I stand by my argument that unless BioWare is really going to step up their game in making a shooter(I would say ME3/Andromeda are pretty good, not amazing), they're still going to want their main target market they have a reputation for making games for. Obviously if they could step it up to amazing it wouldn't be needed. Blizzard had never made a FPS game before Overwatch and we all know how that worked out for them. The quantity of sales does not equate to demand. Demand for example was after the release of Halo 1. Gamers WANTED to play it online rather than just LAN and thus came Halo 2 with online MP. If ME3 never had MP, nobody would have complained. Cyberpunk 2077 will have MP, but nobody is really talking about it cause it is the SP that people want. There were plenty of people saying they wanted multiplayer in Mass Effect after ME1 and ME2 and I am not just talking the people that wanted co-op.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 18, 2017 20:16:44 GMT
The quantity of sales does not equate to demand. Demand for example was after the release of Halo 1. Gamers WANTED to play it online rather than just LAN and thus came Halo 2 with online MP. If ME3 never had MP, nobody would have complained. Cyberpunk 2077 will have MP, but nobody is really talking about it cause it is the SP that people want. Yes it does. In marketing the term demand does not refer to the idea of somebody specifically asking for you to do something but rather how many people are buying a particular good or service, usually at a particular price point. I've worked in marketing. That's literally how the term is used. You're thinking demand in terms of "I want this". The context its used in for marketing is more "supply vs demand". So if there was this pure demand for MP games, why didnt games lile Evolve take off?
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 18, 2017 20:35:07 GMT
The quantity of sales does not equate to demand. Demand for example was after the release of Halo 1. Gamers WANTED to play it online rather than just LAN and thus came Halo 2 with online MP. If ME3 never had MP, nobody would have complained. Cyberpunk 2077 will have MP, but nobody is really talking about it cause it is the SP that people want. You're only arguing one side of the story, what about the other side? Let's suppose Bioware decided to stick with SP experiences only. From there, how do they double their revenue? How do they increase EA shareholder value with increasing margins, or daily active users, or Metacritic scores, or name your favorite KPI? Where is the upside in staying with SP only? Answer: there isn't any, or at least, it's much more difficult to see how they get to double their current revenue by taking an SP path only. TBH, I think CDPR faces the same brick wall. If they continue to only do SP experiences, their growth path has a ceiling and they have already hit it. It's going to be very hard indeed to top TW3's performance. So how deep does this line of thought go? Going by your logic, all games should just be FPS with MP games or 3rd Person shooter with MP games cause that is where the money is right? Square Enix should just cancel Kingdom Hearts 3. Nintendo needs to cancel Mario Odyssey, Metroid Prime 4 should be a standard FPS with a MP focus, the new God of War should be cancelled and the next Zelda game should be a MMO. I mean cause that is where the demand is right?
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 18, 2017 21:10:17 GMT
Yes it does. In marketing the term demand does not refer to the idea of somebody specifically asking for you to do something but rather how many people are buying a particular good or service, usually at a particular price point. I've worked in marketing. That's literally how the term is used. You're thinking demand in terms of "I want this". The context its used in for marketing is more "supply vs demand". So if there was this pure demand for MP games, why didnt games lile Evolve take off? That's like asking why No Man's Sky didn't take off despite survival exploration games having gotten a lot more popular in recent years. I really shouldn't even have to explain why a game that's not good didn't do well regardless of demand.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 18, 2017 21:15:40 GMT
What are you guts even arguing about now? Should the companies only make games in the Du Jour mold?
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Post by mmoblitz on Sept 18, 2017 22:39:03 GMT
Im not sure it isnt one dimensional. Nobody was complaining about the lack of MP in ME1 and ME2. No Bioware fan was complaining about Bioware not making MP games. Yes, fans may have appreciated the addition to MP in games like GTA, RDR, ME3, Uncharted etc, but they were never demanding it. Fans would have been generally satisfied if ME3, RDR, GTA5, Uncharted, and Last of Us didnt have MP. It is just the publisher side of things that are pushing it on us cause it is a profit driver for them. They can sell us microtransactions and MP content is cheaper to make than SP content. Fans of Witcher 3 liked thr game based on its story and nobody wad saying it should have had MP. If there were a Witcher 4 and it had MP, people would play it and like it, but they never asked for it. They would be just as satisfied if it was SP only. There is a demand for MP, but it is driven by the industry, not the consumers. If a co-worker bought me a pizza for luncg, I would appreciate it and eat it, but I was not walking around asking my peers to buy me lunch. Me eating the pizza and appreciating it is not the same as me having a demand that my co-workers buys me pizza for lunch. If what you mean to say is that people drawn to the story and such of single player games aren't asking for MP, you may be right. However, many of those same players will still enjoy MP, which increases the lifespan of the game, keeping people playing longer. There are also players who were not interested particularly in that single player experience who are interested by the idea of playing with friends. The idea that developers are putting in MP despite there being no demand simply isn't the case though. They want to extend the life of their games, create a mod kit for Frostbite like Bethesda has for it's games. Look at skyrim, game alone isn't that great, but the fact that it can be modded to be great is a huge selling point. I'm sure they still make some decent money from skyrim sales based on mods alone. Something I'm sure Bioware can't say about it's games. MOdders can keep a game alive a relevant for years while other games die off.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 19, 2017 0:23:14 GMT
What are you guts even arguing about now? Should the companies only make games in the Du Jour mold? A company can make whatever game they want but if you're after what is going to make the most money it makes sense to make the kind of game that has a high amount of consumer demand. Though as I said before I think BioWare might end up struggling if they attempt to have a go of it based purely on how good a MP shooter they can make, so it's probably not the worst idea to have a hook for their traditional target market of story heavy singleplayer. Especially because it appears that Destiny 2 which is considered Anthem's biggest competition has stumbled on the story aspect and done something that's simply serviceable rather than really good.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 19, 2017 2:30:59 GMT
You're only arguing one side of the story, what about the other side? Let's suppose Bioware decided to stick with SP experiences only. From there, how do they double their revenue? How do they increase EA shareholder value with increasing margins, or daily active users, or Metacritic scores, or name your favorite KPI? Where is the upside in staying with SP only? Answer: there isn't any, or at least, it's much more difficult to see how they get to double their current revenue by taking an SP path only. TBH, I think CDPR faces the same brick wall. If they continue to only do SP experiences, their growth path has a ceiling and they have already hit it. It's going to be very hard indeed to top TW3's performance. So how deep does this line of thought go? Going by your logic, all games should just be FPS with MP games or 3rd Person shooter with MP games cause that is where the money is right? Square Enix should just cancel Kingdom Hearts 3. Nintendo needs to cancel Mario Odyssey, Metroid Prime 4 should be a standard FPS with a MP focus, the new God of War should be cancelled and the next Zelda game should be a MMO. I mean cause that is where the demand is right? Other studios have other, well-established paths to scale up revenue. For example, you can hold a monopoly on a platform, like Nintendo, or hold a license to an IP that people adore, like Nintendo vis. Disney. But the total number of paths to scale up revenue are limited, particularly if you are a AAA studio beholden to a public company like EA. So EA is going to rely on proven methods, and "online" is their biggest growing sector, according to their quarterlies. I mean, there's always room for the rare unicorn, like Minecraft, to come along and disrupt the market. But that's what, 1 out of 100? 1000? The smaller niches with more modest growth paths become the opportunities for indie and kickstarter developers. The work is scaled to the opportunity. No one expects AAA quality epics to come out of indie studios for pretty much the same economy of scale reasons.
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 19, 2017 2:36:51 GMT
If what you mean to say is that people drawn to the story and such of single player games aren't asking for MP, you may be right. However, many of those same players will still enjoy MP, which increases the lifespan of the game, keeping people playing longer. There are also players who were not interested particularly in that single player experience who are interested by the idea of playing with friends. The idea that developers are putting in MP despite there being no demand simply isn't the case though. They want to extend the life of their games, create a mod kit for Frostbite like Bethesda has for it's games. Amen. We hear a lot about how Frostbite is hard for RPG-style games, or animation, or inventory, or whatnot, but really the biggest negative about Frostbite is that there doesn't seem to be a cost effective way to support modding. Huge flaw, imo. I frankly don't understand why every AAA engine doesn't support modding. It's a no-brainer for milking a property for money long past it's shelf life, even if the only money you make is selling yet another base game unit to some player who was too young/poor to buy the game when it first came out, umpteen years ago.
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Post by Hrungr on Sept 19, 2017 5:07:34 GMT
They want to extend the life of their games, create a mod kit for Frostbite like Bethesda has for it's games. Amen. We hear a lot about how Frostbite is hard for RPG-style games, or animation, or inventory, or whatnot, but really the biggest negative about Frostbite is that there doesn't seem to be a cost effective way to support modding. Huge flaw, imo. I frankly don't understand why every AAA engine doesn't support modding. It's a no-brainer for milking a property for money long past it's shelf life, even if the only money you make is selling yet another base game unit to some player who was too young/poor to buy the game when it first came out, umpteen years ago. I'd love to see mod support for Frostbite, but I get that there's a myriad number of issues in doing so. One of the biggest hurtles I keep hearing is that they use a lot of 3rd party software, plugins, extensions, etc. in creating their games, so it's not just the software they've created & own they have to worry about. And it'd be prohibitively expensive to license it all for widespread use. That said, I fully expect Bethesda to continue to support modding (if they have to build a new engine from the ground up) as their community is just too big to lose.
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 19, 2017 6:47:07 GMT
Any self-respecting company that wants to survive has to innovate and evolve over time. Just because gamers refuse to change, doesn't mean Bioware isn't allowed to. I respect their willingness to try to excel at other stuff immensely, and look forward to Anthem. And if it tanks...? Ah well, nice try (again). There is a difference between evolving cause that is what the consumers want versus evolving because the industry is trying to force it. Remember people were saying that motion controls were the future and the industry/consumers needed to evole? Well...how did that work out with the PS Move and Xbox Kinect? How about... what Bioware wants? Ever thought of that?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 12:18:28 GMT
What are you guts even arguing about now? Should the companies only make games in the Du Jour mold? A company can make whatever game they want but if you're after what is going to make the most money it makes sense to make the kind of game that has a high amount of consumer demand. Though as I said before I think BioWare might end up struggling if they attempt to have a go of it based purely on how good a MP shooter they can make, so it's probably not the worst idea to have a hook for their traditional target market of story heavy singleplayer. Especially because it appears that Destiny 2 which is considered Anthem's biggest competition has stumbled on the story aspect and done something that's simply serviceable rather than really good. Throw linear there with the story heavy SP, and I think there is a potential to please more folks, with a good central linear story with traditional good/evil choices, and the OW for the MP folks to do the looter-shooting for a couple of years. Maybe it will work to get likes BioWare needs.
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Post by majesticjazz on Sept 19, 2017 12:51:16 GMT
There is a difference between evolving cause that is what the consumers want versus evolving because the industry is trying to force it. Remember people were saying that motion controls were the future and the industry/consumers needed to evole? Well...how did that work out with the PS Move and Xbox Kinect? How about... what Bioware wants? Ever thought of that? My point exactly. It is not what the consumers wants but what Bioware wants. People may have enjoyed ME3 MP, but it wad the SP in ME3 that they wanted. Nobody wanted Bioware to make a MP driven game. While Anthem will succeed, Nobody was asking for a MP driven game. People may have wanted more SP games with additional MP content like ME3, DAI, and MEA, but not a full out MP game with additional SP content. Again, it is industry driven.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 13:03:46 GMT
How about... what Bioware wants? Ever thought of that? My point exactly. It is not what the consumers wants but what Bioware wants. People may have enjoyed ME3 MP, but it wad the SP in ME3 that they wanted. Nobody wanted Bioware to make a MP driven game. While Anthem will succeed, Nobody was asking for a MP driven game. People may have wanted more SP games with additional MP content like ME3, DAI, and MEA, but not a full out MP game with additional SP content. Again, it is industry driven. I played SWTOR, ME3MP and MEAMP, and I do want BioWare to make an MP game. Poor reception of MEA SP killed mEAmP imo, and it is a pity, because MEAMP just needed more stuff that would have been generated should the SP took off, like more races and maps. Otherwise,, it was really enjoyable. And SWTOR was the best gaming experience I had, so I wish Anthem can do at least partially what Swtor managed. Anyhow, I personally like MP stuff Bio makes and when I tried MP stuff by someone else, I did not.
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 19, 2017 18:45:03 GMT
A company can make whatever game they want but if you're after what is going to make the most money it makes sense to make the kind of game that has a high amount of consumer demand. Though as I said before I think BioWare might end up struggling if they attempt to have a go of it based purely on how good a MP shooter they can make, so it's probably not the worst idea to have a hook for their traditional target market of story heavy singleplayer. Especially because it appears that Destiny 2 which is considered Anthem's biggest competition has stumbled on the story aspect and done something that's simply serviceable rather than really good. Throw linear there with the story heavy SP, and I think there is a potential to please more folks, with a good central linear story with traditional good/evil choices, and the OW for the MP folks to do the looter-shooting for a couple of years. Maybe it will work to get likes BioWare needs. Having the usual array of choice might be a bit tricky depending on how much they want story choices to be reflected in potential co-op play, as people are going to want to play through any story missions with friends. It would be a little weird if Mass Effect were co-op and suddenly a character that died for me in ME2 showed up in ME3 because they were alive for my friend. SWtoR had a decent thing going with the individual stories, although I don't care for the way it handled dialogue outside of that where it basically just RNG picked whose choice would be used.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 19:00:01 GMT
Throw linear there with the story heavy SP, and I think there is a potential to please more folks, with a good central linear story with traditional good/evil choices, and the OW for the MP folks to do the looter-shooting for a couple of years. Maybe it will work to get likes BioWare needs. Having the usual array of choice might be a bit tricky depending on how much they want story choices to be reflected in potential co-op play, as people are going to want to play through any story missions with friends. It would be a little weird if Mass Effect were co-op and suddenly a character that died for me in ME2 showed up in ME3 because they were alive for my friend. SWtoR had a decent thing going with the individual stories, although I don't care for the way it handled dialogue outside of that where it basically just RNG picked whose choice would be used. Oh, I liked the RNG game, was lots of fun
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Cyonan
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Cyonan
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Post by Cyonan on Sept 19, 2017 19:44:02 GMT
Having the usual array of choice might be a bit tricky depending on how much they want story choices to be reflected in potential co-op play, as people are going to want to play through any story missions with friends. It would be a little weird if Mass Effect were co-op and suddenly a character that died for me in ME2 showed up in ME3 because they were alive for my friend. SWtoR had a decent thing going with the individual stories, although I don't care for the way it handled dialogue outside of that where it basically just RNG picked whose choice would be used. Oh, I liked the RNG game, was lots of fun After a while it didn't matter to me since we were just running the same dungeons over and over again. Though from a RP standpoint it's a really bad mechanic when you can have the RNG decide a moral choice for you. Especially if they want to make those choices mean something later on down the line. Having the RNG game would kill any potential for co-op story in Anthem for me.
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guest@proboards.com
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2017 19:50:34 GMT
Oh, I liked the RNG game, was lots of fun After a while it didn't matter to me since we were just running the same dungeons over and over again. Though from a RP standpoint it's a really bad mechanic when you can have the RNG decide a moral choice for you. Especially if they want to make those choices mean something later on down the line. Having the RNG game would kill any potential for co-op story in Anthem for me. If someone else did the choice however, it did not impact your character. The choice you pressed was the one that registered on the descision meter. You might not have witnessed the desired outcome as someone else overpowered your will, but in replayable content, eventually you'd see it.
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✜ Theorymancer
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PillarBiter
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pillarbiter
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
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Post by PillarBiter on Sept 20, 2017 6:29:22 GMT
How about... what Bioware wants? Ever thought of that? My point exactly. It is not what the consumers wants but what Bioware wants. People may have enjoyed ME3 MP, but it wad the SP in ME3 that they wanted. Nobody wanted Bioware to make a MP driven game. While Anthem will succeed, Nobody was asking for a MP driven game. People may have wanted more SP games with additional MP content like ME3, DAI, and MEA, but not a full out MP game with additional SP content. Again, it is industry driven. There's a difference between industry (i.e., the collection of all gaming companies) and one company. A company may steer itself on it's own whim. An industry may not. Bioware - as far as their official statements go, which is always something I'll believe (with the necessary cynicism) over any reporter's "journalism" - chooses it's own path with anthem.
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✜ Forge Mechanic
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PapaCharlie9
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papacharlie9
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age Inquisition, Neverwinter Nights, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by PapaCharlie9 on Sept 20, 2017 22:06:32 GMT
How about... what Bioware wants? Ever thought of that? My point exactly. It is not what the consumers wants but what Bioware wants. People may have enjoyed ME3 MP, but it wad the SP in ME3 that they wanted. Nobody wanted Bioware to make a MP driven game. While Anthem will succeed, Nobody was asking for a MP driven game. People may have wanted more SP games with additional MP content like ME3, DAI, and MEA, but not a full out MP game with additional SP content. Again, it is industry driven. If by "industry driven" you mean that BW is following the money to a broader market of gamers that haven't bought their games before, I agree. But isn't that just another way of saying gamers are asking for MP? Not traditional BW gamers, to be sure, but gamers with untapped money?
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