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Post by river82 on Oct 3, 2017 21:55:31 GMT
Reminds me of when NWN2 came out and a 1UP reviewer wrote a review stating how he basically hates isometric games, that they're outdated, and slapped a 5/10 on the thing. Oh how there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and everybody was crying "if you hate isometric games, why are you reviewing them!"
They then pulled the review so the magazine editor could go over it. The review was reposted a few days later ... as a 6/10. Oh how the wailing continued.
At the end of the day people have opinions and those opinions might be different to yours. If you spend your days caring about this, you're going to spend a lot of your days angry
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 23:42:08 GMT
Reminds me of when NWN2 came out and a 1UP reviewer wrote a review stating how he basically hates isometric games, that they're outdated, and slapped a 5/10 on the thing. Oh how there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth, and everybody was crying "if you hate isometric games, why are you reviewing them!" They then pulled the review so the magazine editor could go over it. The review was reposted a few days later ... as a 6/10. Oh how the wailing continued. At the end of the day people have opinions and those opinions might be different to yours. If you spend your days caring about this, you're going to spend a lot of your days angry Who said anything about being angry over this review? I'm certainly not angry. There is a world of difference between being concerned about something and being angry about something... I'm more the former, not the latter. As I've clearly said several times here, my concern originates with comments on the Twitter thread that indicated there was some sort of pattern to this... trashing first... redeeming later. I also said that IF it was a pattern, then I'd ask the question why the gaming media was so adverse to just putting an "average" review for an "average" game, rather than swinging first one way then the other. Now, there have been some commenters on this thread that have clearly said they don't see that sort of pattern happening. I don't see where there's any anger being expressed here. The one thing that does irritate me (defining irritate as mild anger) is that I don't like opinions being shoved in my face when I'm looking for information... so things like having informational videos automatically run onto opinion pieces on YouTube does irritate me... because I know they get credit for another viewing of the video even though that isn't what I was remotely interested in seeing even the beginning of it for the 10th time. I generally try to avoid reading opinion pieces of any type... what the "run-on" videos do is take away my option of avoiding them completely... and as I said, gives the video credit for a view that I never intended to give it.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 4, 2017 0:04:31 GMT
But the game is far from the trash people call it, is in fact a very good and fun game. Do people actually say that it's trash? The worst thing I ever hear is that ME1 is the worst game in the series. Of course, if ME2 had advanced the Reaper plot line more, that would have placed even more limitations on ME3's writers than the version of ME2 we actually got did. All the evidence points to the entire Leviathan concept as having been invented after ME3 was already in feature lock, if not shipped. There was never any decision to leave this material out. Though of course, that just means that they should have thought about Reaper origins earlier in the process Only three? More endings would have made a sequel harder, not easier.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2017 0:30:51 GMT
But the game is far from the trash people call it, is in fact a very good and fun game. Do people actually say that it's trash? The worst thing I ever hear is that ME1 is the worst game in the series. Of course, if ME2 had advanced the Reaper plot line more, that would have placed even more limitations on ME3's writers than the version of ME2 we actually got did. All the evidence points to the entire Leviathan concept as having been invented after ME3 was already in feature lock. There was never any decision to leave this material out. Though of course, that just means that they should have thought about Reaper origins earlier in the process Only three? More endings would have made a sequel harder, not easier. I can see where you're coming from but I really have to disagree on point 2. ME2 could have been written to advance the Reaper plot without necessarily putting any more limitations on ME3. Certainly, ME3's story would have been different; but not necessarily any more limited than it was. No one can really predict what might have been though... it went down how it went down... and there are several story related issues in ALL four games.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 4, 2017 1:04:55 GMT
Good point. I'm not convinced that limiting a sequel's possible designs is an issue in itself anyway. You're only going to release one version of ME3 whether or not its design was constrained by ME2.
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Post by brfritos on Oct 4, 2017 7:24:18 GMT
But the game is far from the trash people call it, is in fact a very good and fun game. Do people actually say that it's trash? The worst thing I ever hear is that ME1 is the worst game in the series. Of course, if ME2 had advanced the Reaper plot line more, that would have placed even more limitations on ME3's writers than the version of ME2 we actually got did. We should be fair here. Yes, I was upset too with ME3 endings, but the idea was simply THAT ONE all along. The leaked scripts of the game confirmed, even the Cathalyst was planned ahead (although in a different fashion, the result would be the same).
I think we say this sometimes to feel better about ourselves. The death of KayAsh in the coup arc if Shepard wanted was better in my opinion in the leaked script, though. LOL
Actually no, is the opposite.
With more content options you can create the variation you want about the future, with only three at best you can't do much about it. You have only one scenario available: since every race was pretty much f*** after ME3 ending, with countless deaths and having to rebuilt everything, no one has the advantage above the other. It's like a cold war in space or peace with everyone. And that's it.
The only way to avoid this is if you retcon or contradict the past games.
Take the new Star Trek, the so called Kelvin timeline. I didn't liked the way they rebooted the frenchise and think the movies are shit to be honest.
But Paramount never lied or hide what the series would be: an alternate timeline in which everything goes.
Even don't liking the reboot, at least I can respect it.
That's why MEA disppointed me, they could've done whatever they wanted with the frenchise. It's a new galaxy for heavens sake!
Instead we have the same thing over and over again, even the problems in the present game are the same of past games. Heck, this time at least it was even faster, I can give you that: the original writer left the boat before the game's release, instead of after.
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2017 14:39:25 GMT
Of course, if ME2 had advanced the Reaper plot line more, that would have placed even more limitations on ME3's writers than the version of ME2 we actually got did. Having a clue where they were taking the story to begin with might have led to such problems being anticipated and hopefully avoided. Having such huge galaxy-altering divergences in the game was stupid to begin with. Should have gone with smaller, but more immediately felt consequences that altered the fate of Shepard and his/her companions and leave the bigger consequences more vague. That way you can continue the franchise with new characters and little to no baggage. Going to Andromeda to escape the consequences only emphasized the poor design decisions of the trilogy.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 4, 2017 15:44:38 GMT
Only three? More endings would have made a sequel harder, not easier. Actually no, is the opposite. With more content options you can create the variation you want about the future, with only three at best you can't do much about it. You have only one scenario available: since every race was pretty much f*** after ME3 ending, with countless deaths and having to rebuilt everything, no one has the advantage above the other. It's like a cold war in space or peace with everyone. And that's it.
This argument only works if the problem with making a sequel is not having an existing ending you want to continue with. There's no reason to think that's true with ME3 as written. It's pretty easy to write a Destroy- or Control-based sequel. We had a lot of practice doing that on the old boards before ME:A was announced. But if the problem with writing the sequel was the divergence of the endings, as Iakus says above, then more endings can't make this better. OTOH, they probably can't really make it worse for ME3 as written, since that difficulty level was already infinite. It's not clear why you think the italed is an issue. The various races will recover given enough time. There's no reason the game can't jump forward however many decades or centuries the new plot would require. You might have the salarians be relatively stronger in the future since their systems don't seem to have been as thoroughly trashed as the other major races, but that isn't a problem; it's just a different balance of power.
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Post by guanxi on Oct 4, 2017 18:21:59 GMT
While BioWare have always towed the official party line ad nauseam that *wink* there is no canon ending to ME3 *wink* I always took this to be incredibly disingenuous. Mainstream audiences would never accept synthesis as the ending to the mass effect story that's a given but it's how they wanted to end the story that's patently obvious.
There is very clearly one ending to ME3... the "good ending". The Joker/EDI Adam and Eve allusion makes absolutely no sense otherwise in any other context. The writing strongly implies the other two options merely postpone the "inevitability" of synthesis and I suspect are there simply to provide the illusion of choice for people who don't subscribe to BioWare's 'bold artistic choice' for the ending in an attempt to mitigate controversy.
It's really a moot point if all roads lead to synthesis eventually regardless: the very idea of there being 3 possible divergent paths post ME3 from the beginning was always uninformed nonsense.
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Post by abedsbrother on Oct 4, 2017 19:07:12 GMT
Of course, if ME2 had advanced the Reaper plot line more, that would have placed even more limitations on ME3's writers than the version of ME2 we actually got did. Having a clue where they were taking the story to begin with might have led to such problems being anticipated and hopefully avoided. I'd argue that the writers had a clue where they were taking the story. The shape of the Citadel Tower floorplan in ME1 indicates as much.
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Post by brfritos on Oct 4, 2017 20:38:58 GMT
Actually no, is the opposite. With more content options you can create the variation you want about the future, with only three at best you can't do much about it. You have only one scenario available: since every race was pretty much f*** after ME3 ending, with countless deaths and having to rebuilt everything, no one has the advantage above the other. It's like a cold war in space or peace with everyone. And that's it.
This argument only works if the problem with making a sequel is not having an existing ending you want to continue with. There's no reason to think that's true with ME3 as written. It's pretty easy to write a Destroy- or Control-based sequel. We had a lot of practice doing that on the old boards before ME:A was announced. But if the problem with writing the sequel was the divergence of the endings, as Iakus says above, then more endings can't make this better. OTOH, they probably can't really make it worse for ME3 as written, since that difficulty level was already infinite. It's not clear why you think the italed is an issue. The various races will recover given enough time. There's no reason the game can't jump forward however many decades or centuries the new plot would require. You might have the salarians be relatively stronger in the future since their systems don't seem to have been as thoroughly trashed as the other major races, but that isn't a problem; it's just a different balance of power.
Oh, I don't have a single problem with a "default" decision, for example the destroy ending. In fact I would love to see the game advancing 20 years after the war and then starting from there.
The galaxy would have rebuilded, but the races would still suffereing the effects of the war. After all, some worlds were utterly destroyed and in others at least half of the population was snuffed. I'd like Shepard to be dead also, regarded by some as hero/heroine and others as a bastard/bitch.
The writers can start from there and do whatever they want.
My point was you don't have too much devianting from this, unless you advance the timeline too much into the future. But then you have the risk to alianate the players by creating something not believable. Yes, I know, in sci-fi the timeline serve the purpose of story, not the other way around.
But in my opinion one of the greatest achievements of the ME frenchise is making the timeline believable (and the worlds and characters).
Yes, I know that eezo don't exist and the science part of the game a lot of times is make belive, but it's well crafted. We even could join some MEA ideas into the mix, like Alec developing AI and implanting them in people, something the other races would be worry about.
Alas, is one thing I don't see in MEA: my Sara says she has an AI implanted in her head and everyone is like "oh, ok".
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Post by Iakus on Oct 4, 2017 20:57:12 GMT
Having a clue where they were taking the story to begin with might have led to such problems being anticipated and hopefully avoided. I'd argue that the writers had a clue where they were taking the story. The shape of the Citadel Tower floorplan in ME1 indicates as much. What that it's shaped like a Reaper? We've known since ME1 that the Reapers built the Citadel. That's not really long-term planning.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 5, 2017 1:31:46 GMT
My point was you don't have too much devianting from this, unless you advance the timeline too much into the future. But then you have the risk to alianate the players by creating something not believable. Yes, I know, in sci-fi the timeline serve the purpose of story, not the other way around. But in my opinion one of the greatest achievements of the ME frenchise is making the timeline believable (and the worlds and characters). Yes, I know that eezo don't exist and the science part of the game a lot of times is make belive, but it's well crafted. We even could join some MEA ideas into the mix, like Alec developing AI and implanting them in people, something the other races would be worry about. Alas, is one thing I don't see in MEA: my Sara says she has an AI implanted in her head and everyone is like "oh, ok". Well, anybody who didn't like the AI using AIs would just not go to Heleus, right? It's not like anyone was hiding what Pathfinders were. And there's only a short period before it becomes clear that Ryder's AI enhancement is precisely what's making the difference for the mission. Eos happens right away. I suppose they could have added a few more dimwits and fanatics besides the ones in the Firefighters mission, though. I'm still not really following your concern with believability. When and how would this come up, and how does moving into the setting's future make this issue worse? Hey, how are you writing your posts? They're coming up with div tags instead of paragraph breaks, and it blows up formatting when I reply to them.
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Post by Daft Arbiter on Oct 5, 2017 3:05:12 GMT
Of course, if ME2 had advanced the Reaper plot line more, that would have placed even more limitations on ME3's writers than the version of ME2 we actually got did. Having a clue where they were taking the story to begin with might have led to such problems being anticipated and hopefully avoided. Having such huge galaxy-altering divergences in the game was stupid to begin with. Should have gone with smaller, but more immediately felt consequences that altered the fate of Shepard and his/her companions and leave the bigger consequences more vague. That way you can continue the franchise with new characters and little to no baggage. Going to Andromeda to escape the consequences only emphasized the poor design decisions of the trilogy. Agreed. Can you imagine if Dragon Age: Origins had endings like Mass Effect 3?
Red: Warden & Friends kill the Archdemon, same basic ending line Blue: The Warden uses his/her tainted blood to take control of the Archdemon and, by proxy, the entire Darkspawn horde. Green: The Warden uses his/her tainted blood to nullify the potency of the taint, forever breaking the Veil yet rendering the Archdemon and Darkspawn non-hostile to all of Thedas. Refuse: The Archdemon wins, and all of Thedas is consumed by the Blight!
Such a thing would've been a clusterfuck. How would you write a sequel that isn't an utter mess from the get-go, when you're basing it on nonsense like that? Keeping the big picture simple while making the smaller details unusual would be a better route.
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Post by abedsbrother on Oct 5, 2017 5:17:08 GMT
I'd argue that the writers had a clue where they were taking the story. The shape of the Citadel Tower floorplan in ME1 indicates as much. What that it's shaped like a Reaper? We've known since ME1 that the Reapers built the Citadel. That's not really long-term planning. Though the Reapers built the Citadel, the mere fact they did is not a reason to make the Citadel Tower in their image. It's as indicative as anything else that there was more to the Citadel Tower than met the eye. Given that Hudson planned OT as a trilogy - he said as much - I wouldn't be surprised if the Catalyst existed in some form on the franchise road map from quite early in the planning stages.
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Post by brfritos on Oct 5, 2017 17:43:46 GMT
My point was you don't have too much devianting from this, unless you advance the timeline too much into the future. But then you have the risk to alianate the players by creating something not believable. Yes, I know, in sci-fi the timeline serve the purpose of story, not the other way around. But in my opinion one of the greatest achievements of the ME frenchise is making the timeline believable (and the worlds and characters). Yes, I know that eezo don't exist and the science part of the game a lot of times is make belive, but it's well crafted. We even could join some MEA ideas into the mix, like Alec developing AI and implanting them in people, something the other races would be worry about. Alas, is one thing I don't see in MEA: my Sara says she has an AI implanted in her head and everyone is like "oh, ok". Well, anybody who didn't like the AI using AIs would just not go to Heleus, right? It's not like anyone was hiding what Pathfinders were. And there's only a short period before it becomes clear that Ryder's AI enhancement is precisely what's making the difference for the mission. Eos happens right away. I suppose they could have added a few more dimwits and fanatics besides the ones in the Firefighters mission, though. I'm still not really following your concern with believability. When and how would this come up, and how does moving into the setting's future make this issue worse? Hey, how are you writing your posts? They're coming up with div tags instead of paragraph breaks, and it blows up formatting when I reply to them.
My concern is the way the ends were implemented in ME3, because they don't leave too much room for creating a plot with believability unless is a galaxy rebuilding itself or advancing too much into the future. Like all we saw regarding the war with the reapers didn't happened.
My question regarding SAM is the races don't seem to much to care about having a AI in Ryder's mind. And given how the races were prejudice about AIs, I was expecting more questioning about this. I think the only one who express concern is Drack or Cora, I think is Drack. The rest is ok with the issue.
I think the devs are trying to convey the message about differences and social acceptance, is not bad being difference. Plus, we are starting in a newer galaxy with a newer life, so it makes sense to leave the old grudges behind. But I liked the issue to be explored a little more, the way is presented is a little strange. The Codex state that cryo-sleep works like "freezing time" for the people, you go to sleep in 2185 and wake 600 years later but with the same knowledge you had.
As the writing, I don't know how to break the quotations in parts in the real time editor, so I go to the BBCode section and manually introduce the quote code. I think that's why the formatting is being messed up.
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Post by vallixas on Oct 9, 2017 13:20:12 GMT
She mentions Earth Defense Force and Deadly Premonition. I just don't see Andromeda making it to the place those have. Again, I like Andromeda, but I think it's in ugly stepchild territory. Really, ME1 has more of a cult feel than Andromeda. Before that, It was DA2 that was the ugly stepchild, the ME3 then DAI. Be a matter of time before the next Bioware game takes the role of the ugly stepchild. Seems like revisionism to me. ME3 was criticized mostly for it's ending. DAI was criticized for some of it's less than stellar aspects like the bland open world but still it was received well. DA2 and Andromeda are universally considered trash. Huge difference. People atleast finished ME3. Andromeda was one of the first triple A games i've seen most streamers on twitch quit after 3-4 hours in the first location lol. Cult status is out of the question, a piece of art actually requires a strong point in an area for that. Andromeda doesn't stand strong in any category compared with it's contemporaries. The fact of the matter is it was a bad game that also had the misfortune of being released next to it's contemporaries that were much better games in all regards and just highlighted it's problems further. Witcher 3 and hell even Fallout 4 as troubled as it was had a stronger plot, characters, conflict and more depth in it's choices. Andromeda's close release to better rpgs only ensured that people would forget about it faster. Of course there will always be people who defend mediocre content. There are still fans of BvS today trying to convince the masses they ''were too dumb to understand the movie'.
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Post by linksocarina on Oct 9, 2017 17:12:40 GMT
Before that, It was DA2 that was the ugly stepchild, the ME3 then DAI. Be a matter of time before the next Bioware game takes the role of the ugly stepchild. Seems like revisionism to me. ME3 was criticized mostly for it's ending. DAI was criticized for some of it's less than stellar aspects like the bland open world but still it was received well. DA2 and Andromeda are universally considered trash. Huge difference. People atleast finished ME3. Andromeda was one of the first triple A games i've seen most streamers on twitch quit after 3-4 hours in the first location lol. Cult status is out of the question, a piece of art actually requires a strong point in an area for that. Andromeda doesn't stand strong in any category compared with it's contemporaries. The fact of the matter is it was a bad game that also had the misfortune of being released next to it's contemporaries that were much better games in all regards and just highlighted it's problems further. Witcher 3 and hell even Fallout 4 as troubled as it was had a stronger plot, characters, conflict and more depth in it's choices. Andromeda's close release to better rpgs only ensured that people would forget about it faster. Of course there will always be people who defend mediocre content. There are still fans of BvS today trying to convince the masses they ''were too dumb to understand the movie'. If streamers are our barometer of what makes a game good or bad, I kind of worry for the future when we see a lot of people playing Fortnite and Player Unknown Battle Grounds, which were more subjectively flawed games.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 9, 2017 17:52:54 GMT
ME3 was criticized mostly for it's ending. DAI was criticized for some of it's less than stellar aspects like the bland open world but still it was received well. DA2 and Andromeda are universally considered trash. Huge difference. We're talking about early streamers, right? I thought that DA2's consensus had eventually come aroun to something far more positive. I don't have the patience to watch this stuff. What's the common problem with the first few hours? That gets you to, what, landing on Eos? It's not very typical of the bulk of the game
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Post by mannyray on Oct 9, 2017 18:53:27 GMT
Seems like revisionism to me. ME3 was criticized mostly for it's ending. DAI was criticized for some of it's less than stellar aspects like the bland open world but still it was received well. DA2 and Andromeda are universally considered trash. Huge difference. People atleast finished ME3. Andromeda was one of the first triple A games i've seen most streamers on twitch quit after 3-4 hours in the first location lol. Cult status is out of the question, a piece of art actually requires a strong point in an area for that. Andromeda doesn't stand strong in any category compared with it's contemporaries. The fact of the matter is it was a bad game that also had the misfortune of being released next to it's contemporaries that were much better games in all regards and just highlighted it's problems further. Witcher 3 and hell even Fallout 4 as troubled as it was had a stronger plot, characters, conflict and more depth in it's choices. Andromeda's close release to better rpgs only ensured that people would forget about it faster. Of course there will always be people who defend mediocre content. There are still fans of BvS today trying to convince the masses they ''were too dumb to understand the movie'. If streamers are our barometer of what makes a game good or bad, I kind of worry for the future when we see a lot of people playing Fortnite and Player Unknown Battle Grounds, which were more subjectively flawed games. I noticed that some people place a nonexistent value on streamers and memes. It's childlike. Don't think for yourself, let Pewdiepie do it for you.
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Feb 25, 2021 11:56:07 GMT
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Andrew Lucas
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andrewlucas
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Oct 9, 2017 20:33:10 GMT
Same ol' people "discussing" same ol' endings again. Thread hijacked.
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