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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 29, 2017 23:27:16 GMT
First of all, gain some reading comprehension. I never said Rivaini was a race, I said that there were various "races and ethnicities" in Thedas. Races referring to the Dwarves, Qunari, Humans and Elves. Ethnicities referring to the people belonging to various ethnic backgrounds across Thedas, along with various skin colours and tones being present in the population from the same country or general region as each other. Any comparison between Thedas and our world is a tad moot however when discussing ethnicities, given that there are black Elves and black humans, but they clearly don't belong to the same ethnic groups or races as each other. Second of all, you're the one who seems wholly uncomfortable with race related issues. Especially given how often you constantly bring up the subject of race, regardless of whether it's warranted, applicable or even the subject of the conversation being discussed. Not everything happens to be race-related, y'know. That you constantly feel the need to make it about the most innocuous things, actually only serves to undermine any criticism of actual race-issues being mishandled in film, television and gaming. Crying wolf by accusing things of racism all the time, makes valid concerns and complaints about racism fall on deaf ears or be taken less seriously. (Also derailing threads by invoking the race card is a pain to sit through, please kindly stop) You the one is uncomfortable by telling me to stop talking about it because you are embarrassed and uncomfortable when it comes to controversial topics like race. Again that's your problem if you can't handle it. So is Rivain supposed to be "black people" with typical African facial features (like Vivi) or just people with darker skin?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 29, 2017 23:37:08 GMT
You the one is uncomfortable by telling me to stop talking about it because you are embarrassed and uncomfortable when it comes to controversial topics like race. Again that's your problem if you can't handle it. So is Rivain supposed to be "black people" with typical African facial features (like Vivi) or just people with darker skin? It is the former. The ancestors of the Rivaini came to Thedas from a different place than the ancestors of the humans of the other nations. Bioware has talked about if they decide to add in other races not currently in the game, for example people who are like East Asians, they would do a similar thing where they come from a different place.
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Post by Sifr on Oct 30, 2017 0:25:43 GMT
You the one is uncomfortable by telling me to stop talking about it because you are embarrassed and uncomfortable when it comes to controversial topics like race. Again that's your problem if you can't handle it. I'm perfectly comfortable discussing race when it's applicable, appropriate and being mishandled or mispresented in some way. I do however take a dim view on those who seek to use race as an excuse to air their personal grievances, validate any chip on their shoulder or spew negativity. Forgive me for saying, but we already have enough people in this world like that... and they often tend to be the same people who wish to maintain racial division by building walls, rather than wanting to tear pre-existing ones down. Race issues can be discussed in media in a constructive and open manner, no-one is saying they can't. But when it's neither warranted nor related to the actual subjects at hand, then it only ends up being counterproductive to any future conversations about race going forward. By bogging down the conversation with unnecessary race-baiting, that only impedes progress being made when racial issues that do need to be addressed or resolved actually arise. That's why pointless race baiting comes across as a huge disservice. All it does is detract from the conversation and often undermines the very position people supposedly wish to advocate/champion in the first play, nay?
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 30, 2017 1:32:44 GMT
So is Rivain supposed to be "black people" with typical African facial features (like Vivi) or just people with darker skin? It is the former. The ancestors of the Rivaini came to Thedas from a different place than the ancestors of the humans of the other nations. Bioware has talked about if they decide to add in other races not currently in the game, for example people who are like East Asians, they would do a similar thing where they come from a different place. So Rivain is supposed to be "Africa"?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 30, 2017 1:51:49 GMT
It is the former. The ancestors of the Rivaini came to Thedas from a different place than the ancestors of the humans of the other nations. Bioware has talked about if they decide to add in other races not currently in the game, for example people who are like East Asians, they would do a similar thing where they come from a different place. So Rivain is supposed to be "Africa"? Kind of. The place the Rivaini came from is the Africa-equivalent. The closest comparison to Rivain on Earth would be Spain when it was under Moorish occupation.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 30, 2017 3:01:39 GMT
So Rivain is supposed to be "Africa"? Kind of. The place the Rivaini came from is the Africa-equivalent. The closest comparison to Rivain on Earth would be Spain when it was under Moorish occupation. Spain is not Africa. And I always thought Antiva was the Spain/Italy of Dragon Age.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 30, 2017 3:55:10 GMT
Kind of. The place the Rivaini came from is the Africa-equivalent. The closest comparison to Rivain on Earth would be Spain when it was under Moorish occupation. Spain is not Africa. And I always thought Antiva was the Spain/Italy of Dragon Age. I never said it was. I said the homeland the Rivaini came from before immigrating to Rivain was the Africa-equivalent. Antiva is inspired by Venician Italy.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 30, 2017 7:02:42 GMT
I'm perfectly comfortable discussing race when it's applicable, appropriate and being mishandled or mispresented in some way. I do however take a dim view on those who seek to use race as an excuse to air their personal grievances, validate any chip on their shoulder or spew negativity. Forgive me for saying, but we already have enough people in this world like that... and they often tend to be the same people who wish to maintain racial division by building walls, rather than wanting to tear pre-existing ones down. Race issues can be discussed in media in a constructive and open manner, no-one is saying they can't. But when it's neither warranted nor related to the actual subjects at hand, then it only ends up being counterproductive to any future conversations about race going forward. By bogging down the conversation with unnecessary race-baiting, that only impedes progress being made when racial issues that do need to be addressed or resolved actually arise. That's why pointless race baiting comes across as a huge disservice. All it does is detract from the conversation and often undermines the very position people supposedly wish to advocate/champion in the first play, nay? Translation: "Would you pretty please shut up about race? You are making me uncomfortable by talking about race in games. Shut up and get over it." I'm not the one with the problem. You are the one who has a problem by telling me to shut up simply because my controversial beliefs doesn't suit you. If you can't take it too bad. I'm not here to make you comfortable or to bow down to belittle myself to you because you are mad. If you can't handle the heat then get off the kitchen.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 30, 2017 8:10:42 GMT
Come on - it's not that simple. Sure it is. He's an idiot. Nothing he's done has worked out. He would be better off forgetting about trying to help his people and just go to the beach and drink pina coladas. Everything he touches turns to crap. He's thinned skinned. He lets Sera get on his nerves. Why? She means nothing. The Inquisitor makes decisions that get him bent out of shape. He gets frustrated. That's his achilles' heel and most likely why he's failed every time. I can see in the next game a campaign to belittle the dud wolf. Or as Josephine says, a whisper campaign. False lies about him. His people hear about them and start wondering if they're true. Just need a few to have doubts. That will get the elf calling himself Solas mad. Because of that, his plan will backfire, like always, leading to him banishing himself. If not, doing something that not only messes up the world, but hurts his people as well. That will get him even more frustrated , so he decides to go to bed for a thousand years to think of another way to help his people. Another way to get him is when he's in doggy form, throw him a steak laced with poison. He eats it. He dies. Game over. I like it. excellent That's what I thought too. The writers obviously did not think this through but they just want to roll with it and shrug their shoulders. How pathetic of them.
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Post by shinary on Oct 30, 2017 9:17:06 GMT
I can see your point. I would say it might be because we have only been in southern Thedas this far and maybe it's more of a regional thing? Then again Vivienne was from Ostwick(I think?). But there aren't really any male LI of colour either - not even semi dusky kind like Isabella and Josephine. And no, Jacob doesn't count for the reason of him being an ass My point still stands. Vivienne is obviously a woman of African descent and Isabella does not look like one of us. I know what my peeps are. 🙄😑 ....................................I was agreeing with you.
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Post by shinary on Oct 30, 2017 9:25:35 GMT
Vivienne's Rivain as Isabela. Aye, N7Phantom (Cloud9) is simply playing the "No True Scotsman" race card again. According to him, Isabela doesn't count as "Black" enough to count as a non-white love interest. However she does somehow count enough to moan about Bioware making a darker-skinned woman a stereotypical "Jezebel", even though there are a number of other sexually liberated characters (Zevran, Leliana, Iron Bull) in DA from various races and ethnicities. Isabela is as Rivaini as Vivienne.People need to deal with it and stop race-baiting already. Oh, that makes sense! Thanks for clearing this up
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 30, 2017 11:56:37 GMT
I never seen Isabella as black. She came across as Middle Eastern, maybe Irani. Or perhaps even Portuguese, but the first thought when I saw her wasnt a black women.
To me, Vivi is the only black female squadmate Bioware has created.
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Post by jaison1986 on Oct 30, 2017 12:03:03 GMT
I don't even know why some people are debating about Isabela's race. Her facial features are obviously not of an african decent person. Maybe indian or middle eastern? Tbh, if Rivain is suppose to be a country of people with black heritage, it would have made more sense for Isabela to come from Antifa.
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Post by cloud9 on Oct 30, 2017 16:00:10 GMT
You the one is uncomfortable by telling me to stop talking about it because you are embarrassed and uncomfortable when it comes to controversial topics like race. Again that's your problem if you can't handle it. So is Rivain supposed to be "black people" with typical African facial features (like Vivi) or just people with darker skin? You know, I'm glad you asked that. David Gaider was at the crib last week, sipping brews, playing dominoes, listening to Parliament, and barbecuing. You know how we do it. I asked him that same question. He said, "You know Cloud, I never really thought that one out. I really hadn't taken black folks into consideration, to be truthful. Vivienne was just a token negro. Just to appease the liberals." I just sort of threw her in at the last minute. If it were up to me, I would have just made everyone white and be done with it. Haha. Make Thedas Great Again. Am I right?" I frowned and said,"Man, take your beer and get the fuck out, Dave. And no, you can't take a plate with you!" How am I supposed to know what race Rivaini is supposed to be man? Think!
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nvanfleet
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 273 Likes: 583
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 30, 2017 16:05:45 GMT
Many Brazilians have african and latin heritage; I could see Isabella as a Brazilian easy. Not so hard to be from Rivain if that's how it is. Also, every country in Thedas so far has seemed to have a pretty good mix and spread of skin color, and we've only seen 2 people from Rivain fwiw.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 30, 2017 19:33:37 GMT
Many Brazilians have african and latin heritage; I could see Isabella as a Brazilian easy. Not so hard to be from Rivain if that's how it is. Also, every country in Thedas so far has seemed to have a pretty good mix and spread of skin color, and we've only seen 2 people from Rivain fwiw. Being of African heritage and being African are two different things. Many African Americans have white in them due to the relationships between slave and slave master generations ago. This means that someone like Denzel Washington has white/European heritage in him, but he isnt white/Caucasian. So again, to me Vivi is black, Isabella is not.
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Post by rras1994 on Oct 30, 2017 19:42:13 GMT
Many Brazilians have african and latin heritage; I could see Isabella as a Brazilian easy. Not so hard to be from Rivain if that's how it is. Also, every country in Thedas so far has seemed to have a pretty good mix and spread of skin color, and we've only seen 2 people from Rivain fwiw. Being of African heritage and being African are two different things. Many African Americans have white in them due to the relationships between slave and slave master generations ago. This means that someone like Denzel Washington has white/European heritage in him, but he isnt white/Caucasian. So again, to me Vivi is black, Isabella is not. When they are talking about Brazil having people both latin and African heritage, they mean the same thing as your example, as Brazil had a lot of slaves that were imported from Africa and if I remember history correctly slavery was actually outlawed in Brazil alot latter than it was in the US? So there are people who might have a fairly latin look about them but could very well have a African heritage due to the inevitable mixing that would occur. Afterall, that is the reason in the US there can be pale African Americans who are still considered African Americans.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 30, 2017 19:44:55 GMT
Didn't Bioware explain that the reason Isabela didn't have African facial features was because of the limitations in the Eclipse Engine they used for DAO and DA2?
The fact is though that Isabela is Rivaini, and the Rivaini are the equivalent of being black in Dragon Age. Thus, Isabela is ethnically black.
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nvanfleet
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 273 Likes: 583
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 30, 2017 19:53:39 GMT
Many Brazilians have african and latin heritage; I could see Isabella as a Brazilian easy. Not so hard to be from Rivain if that's how it is. Also, every country in Thedas so far has seemed to have a pretty good mix and spread of skin color, and we've only seen 2 people from Rivain fwiw. Being of African heritage and being African are two different things. Many African Americans have white in them due to the relationships between slave and slave master generations ago. This means that someone like Denzel Washington has white/European heritage in him, but he isnt white/Caucasian. So again, to me Vivi is black, Isabella is not. In the end, I would love more black companions. I'd love an *Asian* companion or two, because there don't seem to be *any* in DA (Kasumi in ME, but even that's a question mark, her nationality seemed pretty nebulous). I am not disputing your assertion that Isabella isn't black; merely stating that if they're making Rivaini the DA version of Redguards from DnD or whatever then there's real-world analogues that don't discount her. Not to mention the fact that every game has had black/characters or color in the background (I dunno about DA:A, it's been a loooong time since I played that expansion), so it doesn't necessarily stand to reason that someone's physical appearance decisively marks where they come from. Except Qunari, but they're a different case. Humanity in Dragon Age is hardly homogeneous. They can do better (seriously, amen, give us more Companions of Color, I CANNOT endorse that enough) but they aren't total shit at it.
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Post by rras1994 on Oct 30, 2017 19:54:41 GMT
Didn't Bioware explain that the reason Isabela didn't have African facial features was because of the limitations in the Eclipse Engine they used for DAO and DA2? The fact is though that Isabela is Rivaini, and the Rivaini are the equivalent of being black in Dragon Age. Thus, Isabela is ethnically black. The wiki says "The Rivaini have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony" so pretty much, yeah. However, Antiva is literally shares a border and is literally just across the bay, and considering Antiva is a sea-faring nation there would likely be some "inter-mingling" going on, that could result in some Rivaini having more latin features. That would be a reasonable explanation but it would also not change the fact Isabella would be considered Rivaini/Black even if she did have some Antivan/Latin blood in her. Afterall, we don't say a person can't be considered black just cus they have a white parent/grandparent.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 30, 2017 20:03:16 GMT
Didn't Bioware explain that the reason Isabela didn't have African facial features was because of the limitations in the Eclipse Engine they used for DAO and DA2? The fact is though that Isabela is Rivaini, and the Rivaini are the equivalent of being black in Dragon Age. Thus, Isabela is ethnically black. The wiki says "The Rivaini have skin tones ranging from dark tan to ebony" so pretty much, yeah. However, Antiva is literally shares a border and is literally just across the bay, and considering Antiva is a sea-faring nation there would likely be some "inter-mingling" going on, that could result in some Rivaini having more latin features. That would be a reasonable explanation but it would also not change the fact Isabella would be considered Rivaini/Black even if she did have some Antivan/Latin blood in her. Afterall, we don't say a person can't be considered black just cus they have a white parent/grandparent. True. After all we never see Isabela's father or even hear anything about him so as you said he could have been of Antivan descent while her mother is of Rivaini descent thus leading her to be a black woman that has some Latin features.
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nvanfleet
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 273 Likes: 583
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Post by nvanfleet on Oct 30, 2017 20:05:25 GMT
Considering Isabella, it's entirely likely that she doesn't even know who her father is. It's not difficult to imagine her mother answering that question with a shrug, honestly.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 30, 2017 20:05:41 GMT
Being of African heritage and being African are two different things. Many African Americans have white in them due to the relationships between slave and slave master generations ago. This means that someone like Denzel Washington has white/European heritage in him, but he isnt white/Caucasian. So again, to me Vivi is black, Isabella is not. In the end, I would love more black companions. I'd love an *Asian* companion or two, because there don't seem to be *any* in DA (Kasumi in ME, but even that's a question mark, her nationality seemed pretty nebulous). I am not disputing your assertion that Isabella isn't black; merely stating that if they're making Rivaini the DA version of Redguards from DnD or whatever then there's real-world analogues that don't discount her. Not to mention the fact that every game has had black/characters or color in the background (I dunno about DA:A, it's been a loooong time since I played that expansion), so it doesn't necessarily stand to reason that someone's physical appearance decisively marks where they come from. Except Qunari, but they're a different case. Humanity in Dragon Age is hardly homogeneous. They can do better (seriously, amen, give us more Companions of Color, I CANNOT endorse that enough) but they aren't total shit at it. I would love if Dragon Age started to have Asian characters in the games. I understand why they don't exist in Thedas so far, but they could easily do it by having there be a ship coming from some unknown land and the humans from that land are the equivalent of Asians.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 30, 2017 20:06:47 GMT
Considering Isabella, it's entirely likely that she doesn't even know who her father is. It's not difficult to imagine her mother answering that question with a shrug, honestly. According to the wiki: Isabela's father Much less is known about Isabela's father as she never knew him. Isabela does say to Hawke that, "Well, I think your father sounds like someone worth knowing. According to my mother, my father wasn't. Not even for one night." According to Hari, he was "large, hairy, and good with his hands."
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midnight tea
Twitter Guru
gateway beverage
Posts: 7,095 Likes: 16,598
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 30, 2017 20:07:47 GMT
Many Brazilians have african and latin heritage; I could see Isabella as a Brazilian easy. Not so hard to be from Rivain if that's how it is. Also, every country in Thedas so far has seemed to have a pretty good mix and spread of skin color, and we've only seen 2 people from Rivain fwiw. She could fairly easily pass as Ethiopian. Anyway, I'm not sure why people are discussing 'african' or 'latin' or 'caucasian' heritage. None of races in DA are ethnically like ours, even if they look like us. They have different distribution, different migratory patterns, potentially different environmental pressures aside from those known to us or even perhaps different genetic makeup or what can influence it (*cough*magic*cough*spirits*cough*).
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