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Post by alanc9 on Oct 5, 2017 15:51:54 GMT
Blinded? People have a different opinion than yours, get over it. But it is a fact that DAI is nowhere near the level of grotesque of DA2 and DAO. I mean DAI has its moments, but nowhere near the level of the previous two games. Hell, even Patrick Weekes made reference to this and how it shapes their writing. Anyone got a link to that? A dev's statements on the subject would go a long way towards clarifying the stakes here.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 5, 2017 15:53:28 GMT
Blinded? People have a different opinion than yours, get over it. But it is a fact that DAI is nowhere near the level of grotesque of DA2 and DAO. I mean DAI has its moments, but nowhere near the level of the previous two games. Hell, even Patrick Weekes made reference to this and how it shapes their writing. So? I prefer DAI tackle mature themes like faith, doubt and identity and finding the truth rather than shock value.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 5, 2017 15:55:06 GMT
It's clear this thread boils down to two camps. The people who are disappointed that BW lost their edge and willingness to go where they needed to tell a good story.... and the people so blinded by their agenda that they can't even see the degradation over the course of 3 games. BW needs to step up, because CDPR is wiping the floor with them because they're willing to go where BW won't.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 5, 2017 16:04:46 GMT
Also who said Bioware didnt have time to make DAI and round it out? Bioware had approximately the same amount of time to make DAI as CDPR did with TW3. Note that we don't have really good data on relative staffing levels for the two games. Can't even do a straight-up cost comparison since CDPR has a different cost structure. As noted below, there are good reasons to think that DAI had obstacles which TW3 didn't. (ME:A too, though those had more to do with a poor initial vision.) But this doesn't matter. The games go into the same market no matter what the back end looks like.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 5, 2017 16:22:22 GMT
It's clear this thread boils down to two camps. The people who are disappointed that BW lost their edge and willingness to go where they needed to tell a good story.... and the people so blinded by their agenda that they can't even see the degradation over the course of 3 games. BW needs to step up, because CDPR is wiping the floor with them because they're willing to go where BW won't. While I’m one of the pro-darkness proponents, I absolutely despise The Witcher series, so I’ll have to disagree.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 5, 2017 16:22:54 GMT
It's clear this thread boils down to two camps. The people who are disappointed that BW lost their edge and willingness to go where they needed to tell a good story.... and the people so blinded by their agenda that they can't even see the degradation over the course of 3 games. BW needs to step up, because CDPR is wiping the floor with them because they're willing to go where BW won't. The inevitable abmission of defeat: posting gif due to an inability to form a coherent rebuttal.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 5, 2017 16:28:02 GMT
Someone says that the existence of gay and trans people in a game is proof of some "agenda", then claims everyone else is blinded by their agenda.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2017 16:28:25 GMT
We have, excessively, for the past three years. We get it, you don't like that DA:I had FedEx fetch quests, and Witcher ended up having the time and resources to round out their product in a way that was more satisfying for many people. DA:I and Witcher 3 are still both great games. I will never play Witcher though, because I can't stand Geralt or the goddamn way they do FOV. I can play DA:I for hours without my eyes wanting to murder me. Both companies still have my money. It isnt just me who didnt like the fetch quest but a whole lot of people. DAI was praised and got high review scores. However the one area it was hit hard on WAS the fetch quest and how a lot of the side content didnt tie into the main story like TW3 did. Even MEA was hit hard on this. Also who said Bioware didnt have time to make DAI and round it out? Bioware had approximately the same amount of time to make DAI as CDPR did with TW3. You are just trying to make excusea for them. I like Bioware but I am not a Bioware apologist. I can see when and where Bioware dropped the ball and call them out on it. It doesnt make me any less of a fan. Bioware has had 2 games now in a open worldish setting. They have 2 games to draw feedback from and if DA4 repeats the side quest mistakes as DAI and MEA, then the gaming media will not be kind to them which could affect the review score which in return could affect sales and overall reception. Anthem will get a pass cause it is a new type of game and their 1st crack at it. But DA4 will be seen in a much intense lens. You may not care but if DA4 is a dud, especially after MEA, EA could decide to restructure things and make Bioware EA Edmonton/EA Austin and just focus on Anthem. If I didn't care, I certainly wouldn't be here fucking around with randos after 35 months of pure agony waiting for the next game. I liked what they did with Descent, JoH, and Trespasser, muchly, none of which had the same level of pointless fetch questing (platforming for gears in the Descent was actually pretty fun) and I had even more fun with the base game, despite its flaws, once they instituted things like the Trials and the Golden Nug. Sigils are still pointless though. By all reports, a good chunk of the time making Inquisition was spent fighting with the game engine and building new tools for it from the ground up, then teaching all the devs to use it. Look at the contrast between Base Game DA:I and Trespasser. It is night and day. No wasted space, tight writing, fun mini-games, and exciting, well-populated dungeons. CDPR had their same engine/tools collection from Witcher 2 to build upon and expand and upgrade. MEA was done by a different team, under different leadership, and also had to scrap the entire core of the game three years into production. It was life-ruining for a lot of people, no exaggeration. I'm not seeing that sort of flailing with the Edmonton team doing the yet-to-be announced DA4. The people at the heart of it all seem pretty excited about the work they are doing, though needing liberal applications of chocolate and fried chicken to keep their engines running. I don't think DA4 is going to be a dud, honestly. It has a lot going for it, including not having to account for less powerful technology, some of the best writers and artists in the industry, and a team full of long-term employees that want to grow from where they left off. The gaming media is a meat grinder, which cannot be sated with love or money. It's really sad for people who just want to know what's actually good out there.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 5, 2017 16:33:44 GMT
Someone says that the existence of gay and trans people in a game is proof of some "agenda", then claims everyone else is blinded by their agenda. Expect I never said that. Good luck with that strawman, Donald Trump.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 5, 2017 16:38:09 GMT
Someone says that the existence of gay and trans people in a game is proof of some "agenda", then claims everyone else is blinded by their agenda. Expect I never said that. Good luck with that strawman, Donald Trump. No, you quite explicitly listed those as "proof" that the games were becoming too "PC". Thank you, come again.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 5, 2017 16:41:44 GMT
We have, excessively, for the past three years. We get it, you don't like that DA:I had FedEx fetch quests, and Witcher ended up having the time and resources to round out their product in a way that was more satisfying for many people. DA:I and Witcher 3 are still both great games. I will never play Witcher though, because I can't stand Geralt or the goddamn way they do FOV. I can play DA:I for hours without my eyes wanting to murder me. Both companies still have my money. It isnt just me who didnt like the fetch quest but a whole lot of people. DAI was praised and got high review scores. However the one area it was hit hard on WAS the fetch quest and how a lot of the side content didnt tie into the main story like TW3 did. Even MEA was hit hard on this. Also who said Bioware didnt have time to make DAI and round it out? Bioware had approximately the same amount of time to make DAI as CDPR did with TW3. You are just trying to make excusea for them. I like Bioware but I am not a Bioware apologist. I can see when and where Bioware dropped the ball and call them out on it. It doesnt make me any less of a fan. BIOWARE said that they didn't have time to make DAI and round it out as well as they wished it to. I myself am - right now - reading a book with a chapter detailing their woes and it's not pretty, what with them basically having to build all the tools for the engine that nobody's done RPGs yet. It's not news though. It's been known for years that DAI was the very first game of its kind on Frostbite, while at the same time making the game on 5 platforms, and that it came with challenges. Plus, Mike Laidlaw, in recent interview, compared DAI not to Witcher 3, but Witcher 2. Why? Because Witcher 2 had similar production to DAI, in a sense that it was the very first game on CPDRs new engine, when they were still working out its kinks. I'd like to point out that Witcher 2 got very high praise, but not as much of a praise as TW3, and actually minimally lower scores than DAI. Mr. Laidlaw pointed out that it was that experience - the production of Witcher 2 and having a tested, robust engine and all the tools and assets (AND not having to produce game on 5 platforms) they didn't have to make from the scratch - that let them create TW3 and make it what it is. There's no going around it. You can't compare relatively similar time of production and 'tsk' at Bioware for dropping the ball, when one team has all/most tools ready at their disposal, while others have to spend at least half of production time not just building a game, but tools that actually let them create it. That's literally like saying "oh, you're just trying to excuse the fact that CDPR had a racing car primed and ready, while Bioware had only chassis and steering wheel and had to build the car WHILE they're racing". That's not a perfect analogy, because this is not really a race between companies - each franchise flows in its own production timeline. The only reason I formulate it that way is because, sadly, some people are too short-sighted and think that it IS a competition and a competition where "minor details" like the one above supposedly don't matter, and anybody who points that out is an 'apologist' instead someone who actually has enough respect for development process to know something about it.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 5, 2017 16:51:04 GMT
But it is a fact that DAI is nowhere near the level of grotesque of DA2 and DAO. I mean DAI has its moments, but nowhere near the level of the previous two games. Hell, even Patrick Weekes made reference to this and how it shapes their writing. Anyone got a link to that? A dev's statements on the subject would go a long way towards clarifying the stakes here. I am in the process of looking for said link. But basically it stated that before (during DAO developmemt) Bioware was still in a way not mainstream. But now that they are bigger, they are more self conscious about the content they put in a game and if they cant stand in front of a audience and justify why they put said content in a game, then they wont put it in there. This could explain the desire demon and brothel stuff.
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Post by kino on Oct 5, 2017 16:54:53 GMT
So? I prefer DAI tackle mature themes like faith, doubt and identity and finding the truth rather than shock value. Same here. I'd rather the game tackle some weightier subjects than add in a brothel just to tick off a box to be "edgy". If DA4 takes place in Tevinter that opens up some great story lines.
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Post by rras1994 on Oct 5, 2017 17:07:27 GMT
So? I prefer DAI tackle mature themes like faith, doubt and identity and finding the truth rather than shock value. Same here. I'd rather the game tackle some weightier subjects than add in a brothel just to tick off a box to be "edgy". If DA4 takes place in Tevinter that opens up some great story lines. I don't really see how adding a Brothel would necessary make the game darker, as in previous games the Brothel was used as more a comic relief than anything. And I suspect the people who want a Brothel would be annoyed if Bioware actually did go into the darker themes of exploitation or violance that is heavily connected with the sex trade. And if they aren't going to add to the story, is it really worth the resources? Like, I wouldn't mind if they put one in, I just don't really feel it would add much to the game for me. It didn't add much in the previous games and was actually probably the least mature part of the games
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 5, 2017 17:57:13 GMT
But it is a fact that DAI is nowhere near the level of grotesque of DA2 and DAO. I mean DAI has its moments, but nowhere near the level of the previous two games. Hell, even Patrick Weekes made reference to this and how it shapes their writing. So? I prefer DAI tackle mature themes like faith, doubt and identity and finding the truth rather than shock value. What you are missing is the horrors of war. DAI was a war game. A war between the mages and templars....the Orlesian Civil War, and the whole demons coming from the veil. War includes famine, poverty, genocide, displacement, human trafficing and much more.....all of which was not shown in DAI. It may have been mentioned in dialog or in a codex, but not seen by the player. This is what set TW3 apart because it SHOWED all these aspects. In DAO and DA2 these were all shown. Take the city elves being sold into slavery in DAO or Lowtown in DA2. With DAI all this was referenced but never shown. Why is it that DAO and DA2 went as far to show such horrors and content while DAI didnt? Redcliffe Village in DAI should have looked more like Velen in TW3....
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 5, 2017 18:05:06 GMT
Also who said Bioware didnt have time to make DAI and round it out? Bioware had approximately the same amount of time to make DAI as CDPR did with TW3. Note that we don't have really good data on relative staffing levels for the two games. Can't even do a straight-up cost comparison since CDPR has a different cost structure. As noted below, there are good reasons to think that DAI had obstacles which TW3 didn't. (ME:A too, though those had more to do with a poor initial vision.) But this doesn't matter. The games go into the same market no matter what the back end looks like. Or perhaps Bioware had similar resources as CDPR and it just happened that CDPR can better execute side missions and open world design than Bioware? I mean, wasnt that the whole rationale by Bioware to join forces with EA? That they would have better funding and resources to draw from to create their games?
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Post by smilesja on Oct 5, 2017 18:06:41 GMT
So? I prefer DAI tackle mature themes like faith, doubt and identity and finding the truth rather than shock value. What you are missing is the horrors of war. DAI was a war game. A war between the mages and templars....the Orlesian Civil War, and the whole demons coming from the veil. War includes famine, poverty, genocide, displacement, human trafficing and much more.....all of which was not shown in DAI. It may have been mentioned in dialog or in a codex, but not seen by the player. This is what set TW3 apart because it SHOWED all these aspects. In DAO and DA2 these were all shown. Take the city elves being sold into slavery in DAO or Lowtown in DA2. With DAI all this was referenced but never shown. Why is it that DAO and DA2 went as far to show such horrors and content while DAI didnt? Redcliffe Village in DAI should have looked more like Velen in TW3.... We've seen the war against the mages and the templars from the beginning of the game in the Hinterlands. You can do quests to help the people there. We've seen the devestation of the demon attacks from Crestwood as you see spirits floating around the ruins. DAI was not a war game, but a game that had war.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 5, 2017 18:12:41 GMT
It isnt just me who didnt like the fetch quest but a whole lot of people. DAI was praised and got high review scores. However the one area it was hit hard on WAS the fetch quest and how a lot of the side content didnt tie into the main story like TW3 did. Even MEA was hit hard on this. Also who said Bioware didnt have time to make DAI and round it out? Bioware had approximately the same amount of time to make DAI as CDPR did with TW3. You are just trying to make excusea for them. I like Bioware but I am not a Bioware apologist. I can see when and where Bioware dropped the ball and call them out on it. It doesnt make me any less of a fan. Bioware has had 2 games now in a open worldish setting. They have 2 games to draw feedback from and if DA4 repeats the side quest mistakes as DAI and MEA, then the gaming media will not be kind to them which could affect the review score which in return could affect sales and overall reception. Anthem will get a pass cause it is a new type of game and their 1st crack at it. But DA4 will be seen in a much intense lens. You may not care but if DA4 is a dud, especially after MEA, EA could decide to restructure things and make Bioware EA Edmonton/EA Austin and just focus on Anthem. If I didn't care, I certainly wouldn't be here fucking around with randos after 35 months of pure agony waiting for the next game. I liked what they did with Descent, JoH, and Trespasser, muchly, none of which had the same level of pointless fetch questing (platforming for gears in the Descent was actually pretty fun) and I had even more fun with the base game, despite its flaws, once they instituted things like the Trials and the Golden Nug. Sigils are still pointless though. By all reports, a good chunk of the time making Inquisition was spent fighting with the game engine and building new tools for it from the ground up, then teaching all the devs to use it. Look at the contrast between Base Game DA:I and Trespasser. It is night and day. No wasted space, tight writing, fun mini-games, and exciting, well-populated dungeons. CDPR had their same engine/tools collection from Witcher 2 to build upon and expand and upgrade. MEA was done by a different team, under different leadership, and also had to scrap the entire core of the game three years into production. It was life-ruining for a lot of people, no exaggeration. I'm not seeing that sort of flailing with the Edmonton team doing the yet-to-be announced DA4. The people at the heart of it all seem pretty excited about the work they are doing, though needing liberal applications of chocolate and fried chicken to keep their engines running. I don't think DA4 is going to be a dud, honestly. It has a lot going for it, including not having to account for less powerful technology, some of the best writers and artists in the industry, and a team full of long-term employees that want to grow from where they left off. The gaming media is a meat grinder, which cannot be sated with love or money. It's really sad for people who just want to know what's actually good out there. With that being said, DA4 should have far superior side quest design and open world design than DAI and more inline with TW3 correct? Or what would the excuse be then?
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 5, 2017 18:21:28 GMT
What you are missing is the horrors of war. DAI was a war game. A war between the mages and templars....the Orlesian Civil War, and the whole demons coming from the veil. War includes famine, poverty, genocide, displacement, human trafficing and much more.....all of which was not shown in DAI. It may have been mentioned in dialog or in a codex, but not seen by the player. This is what set TW3 apart because it SHOWED all these aspects. In DAO and DA2 these were all shown. Take the city elves being sold into slavery in DAO or Lowtown in DA2. With DAI all this was referenced but never shown. Why is it that DAO and DA2 went as far to show such horrors and content while DAI didnt? Redcliffe Village in DAI should have looked more like Velen in TW3.... We've seen the war against the mages and the templars from the beginning of the game in the Hinterlands. You can do quests to help the people there. We've seen the devestation of the demon attacks from Crestwood as you see spirits floating around the ruins. DAI was not a war game, but a game that had war. 1) We only see a few scattered groups of templars and mages fighting but we do not see the collateral damage of war. In WWII you see the Japanese fighting in the Pacific. But the collateral damage was rape, famine, genocide, population displacement, poverty and so on. Again, if you played TW3 then use Velen as a reference. You read about it in notes, journals, and diaries in DAI, but never witnessed it. 2) My mistake, DAI was not a war game but the setting took place in the backdrop of war, like TW3. 3) Lol, seeing spooky ghost floating around ruins does not show the devastation of war. Again, look at point #1 to see the devastation of war. 4) The quest I remember was finding a widow's ring and hunting druffalo. Not the same level of quest that I did in TW3's Velen.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 5, 2017 18:34:16 GMT
With that being said, DA4 should have far superior side quest design and open world design than DAI and more inline with TW3 correct? Or what would the excuse be then? We haven't seen DA4 or know anything about the game yet, so wondering about excuses for side quests or whatever people would choose to complain about is super-weird.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 5, 2017 18:39:59 GMT
With that being said, DA4 should have far superior side quest design and open world design than DAI and more inline with TW3 correct? Or what would the excuse be then? We haven't seen DA4 or know anything about the game yet, so wondering about excuses for side quests or whatever people would choose to complain about is super-weird. I am just using your own logic. You say that DAI had lousy side quest and open world design due to not being familiar with Frostbite and a large portion of dev time was used for just getting familiar with the system. Well with DA4 they already worked on it so they should be more familiar than they were back in 2011 when development first started for DAI. That means the open world design and side quest design should be superior than what we got in DAI.
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Post by rras1994 on Oct 5, 2017 18:45:46 GMT
We haven't seen DA4 or know anything about the game yet, so wondering about excuses for side quests or whatever people would choose to complain about is super-weird. I am just using your own logic. You say that DAI had lousy side quest and open world design due to not being familiar with Frostbite and a large portion of dev time was used for just getting familiar with the system. Well with DA4 they already worked on it so they should be more familiar than they were back in 2011 when development first started for DAI. That means the open world design and side quest design should be superior than what we got in DAI. Just going to point out that nowhere did midnight tea say that DAI had lousy quest and open world design. You said that.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 5, 2017 18:50:57 GMT
We've seen the war against the mages and the templars from the beginning of the game in the Hinterlands. You can do quests to help the people there. We've seen the devestation of the demon attacks from Crestwood as you see spirits floating around the ruins. DAI was not a war game, but a game that had war. 1) We only see a few scattered groups of templars and mages fighting but we do not see the collateral damage of war. In WWII you see the Japanese fighting in the Pacific. But the collateral damage was rape, famine, genocide, population displacement, poverty and so on. Again, if you played TW3 then use Velen as a reference. You read about it in notes, journals, and diaries in DAI, but never witnessed it. 2) My mistake, DAI was not a war game but the setting took place in the backdrop of war, like TW3. 3) Lol, seeing spooky ghost floating around ruins does not show the devastation of war. Again, look at point #1 to see the devastation of war. 4) The quest I remember was finding a widow's ring and hunting druffalo. Not the same level of quest that I did in TW3's Velen. I think seeing famine and genocide as a result of the war of mages and templars is collateral enough. The spirits and demons are often attracted to devastation as Crestwood shows. Also the quests requries you to help provide food and blankets for people affected by the mages and templars again how does that not show collateral damage of the war?
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 5, 2017 18:51:50 GMT
We haven't seen DA4 or know anything about the game yet, so wondering about excuses for side quests or whatever people would choose to complain about is super-weird. I am just using your own logic. You say that DAI had lousy side quest and open world design due to not being familiar with Frostbite and a large portion of dev time was used for just getting familiar with the system. Well with DA4 they already worked on it so they should be more familiar than they were back in 2011 when development first started for DAI. That means the open world design and side quest design should be superior than what we got in DAI. I'm not the one presupposing stuff and already imagining excuses for the game we don't yet know a title of, much less its content. This is not logic - this is just being a negative nancy, plain and simple. We know what kind of situation they were in when they were designing DAI - we don't know what is going on now. But in the interview I linked Mike Laidlaw seems confident that they should have easier time designing many aspects of the game and address many issues people had. To what extent we don't know. We have no idea how DA4 will look like and what aspects people will like and which they will pick apart.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion, KOTOR, Jade Empire
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 5, 2017 18:52:20 GMT
I am just using your own logic. You say that DAI had lousy side quest and open world design due to not being familiar with Frostbite and a large portion of dev time was used for just getting familiar with the system. Well with DA4 they already worked on it so they should be more familiar than they were back in 2011 when development first started for DAI. That means the open world design and side quest design should be superior than what we got in DAI. Just going to point out that nowhere did midnight tea say that DAI had lousy quest and open world design. You said that. Ok ok but my point stands as is. That he uses the fact that Bioware couldn't properly address open world and side quest stuff because they were just trying to learn Frostbite. However that isnt the case with DA4 so that means side quest and open world should be superior to that of what we got in DAI.
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