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Post by midnight tea on Oct 6, 2017 0:48:44 GMT
I can't use the quote function so this will have to do. I'm in a rush so this will sound somewhat terse but it's just me limiting what I say to a couple of sentences each, but I'll be more than happy to elaborate on all these points when I get back: 1- A siege takes over an entire city, an invading army would affect the entire country, a magical cataclysm may or may not plunge a whole country into chaos. But you are correct that select districts can be rioting, but this doesn't change that showing these districts in chaos before showing them normally detracts from the impact of that chaos and lessens the worldbuilding opportunities available. Bioware COULD do this, but I really doubt they SHOULD. Your idea about Qunari fueling dissent would be much more effective if the player could see that gradual plunge from everyday to dissent. Actually, Minrathous withstood all the sieges Thedas has thrown at it, including that one time where Qunari conquered all of Tevinter... except Minrathous. So the siege doesn't have to take over entire city, nor the invasion has to be at stages where all country is conquered (the Blight didn't immediately swarm all of Ferelden) nor the magical cataclysm means plunging whole of country in chaos (the Breach didn't). As for gradual plunge from every day dissent - such narrative doesn't require telling it in one place. We can arrive and see some of the districts already rioting and see the process happening in other. Or perhaps for the process to start in another city, if we happen to visit them. People don't stop behaving or having ideas when at war or during crisis. True, it can change, but like I said - it's not black-and-white issue. It's not 'total chaos' and 'peace' - in fact Thedas hardly know any peace, at least at times when we visit it through game chapters. Barring two origins (where we see fragments of a city rather than explore it), DAO didn't introduce city near the beginning of the game. This doesn't really affect my argument. Like I said, this is not a black and white issue and I was certainly not arguing for 'it's all just chaos!' at any time during this discussion, so obviously there's enough room for comparisons, even in a country - or a city - that is already being affected by instability, war, revolt or else. You know... kinda like it always was when we visited Thedas.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 6, 2017 1:24:40 GMT
Nowhere there exists a rule that says that we can learn about culture during time of peace and prosperity. Most of the franchise happens during times of utter chaos and unrest - so much in fact that Inquisitor can vigorously rant about things in Thedas never staying fixed for very long. That doesn't mean of course that there shouldn't be times where we take a breather and see how the country is, but that can be done in multiple different ways. Tevinter ain't exactly the size of Monako after all. I'm back from the dentist (ugh) so I'm going to expand on this point right here. I assume people are familiar with the Maslow pyramid? The Maslow pyramid depicts the hierarchy of needs people go through in daily life. At the bottom you have the most important aspects, like food and security and at the top are things like creativity and art. Once people satisfy their food and security needs they turn their attention to things like creativity, friends, and art. Part of what makes a town interesting is that you have a whole group of people all on different places of that chart interacting with one another and with the city. You will have poor people just trying to survive, and you will have rich people trying to “maximise their potential”. They do this on the backdrop of a city that has been created and constrained partly by history and tradition, and so the people will have to go about attaining what they need while navigating this history or tradition. I have to ask... what does it have to do with the crux of my argument? I can't say I'm not happy with the notion that you think that I don't understand the basics of what makes an interesting town, or - because it seems like it - that you think that I am arguing for a city and country in complete chaos. I do not. At best I'm pointing out that the city or setting won't exist in a vacuum. All the things you said are correct - what you fail to mention is that this part of the world can't exist outside of the story. And the story is that the Imperium is unstable and there's a hostile invasion on the horizon. For it to not be reflected in the capital of Tevinter would be bizarre, to say the least. In fact, we already know from Calpernia's short story that years of Qunari biting Tevinter's ankles has affected the city. None of what you've said I'm not acutely aware of. But AGAIN - I am not arguing for complete or near-complete chaos We already know that Tevinter is not in a peaceful state. It is also awfully segregated to classes, so whole districts can be affected without rest of the city either noticing or pretending they do. You know... just like the nobles in Winter Palace didn't notice that the entire wing of elf servants is being slaughtered - all about that culture! Or the nobles not really caring about the whereabouts of commoners or peasants. Again - culture. Then, of course, there's fact that you're only giving potential scenarios of riots and invading armies and chaos all around. But that's just some of potential scenarios. What if it is a revolt and streets are alight and full of rousing revolutionary songs, pamphlets or secret meetings? It will still be part of culture. Conflict and rise of tensions can be a catalyst for it as well, as well as making some of the long-held traditions or biases more pronounced, or the breaking with themmore stark. Culture is not just something that can be successfully depicted during times of peace, in fact many times it isn't. Most of DA isn't depicted in time of peace in fact and our protagonists break many of the societal rules because of that, while learning about accrued cultural norms and status quo in the result. Oh sure, whether it's peace or conflict will affect all of it, but this is exactly why I'm pointing out that we may not see the city or Tevinter not affected by tensions and unrest, since it's already established in DAI that they're already there.
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Post by kino on Oct 6, 2017 1:42:47 GMT
Same here. I'd rather the game tackle some weightier subjects than add in a brothel just to tick off a box to be "edgy". If DA4 takes place in Tevinter that opens up some great story lines. I don't really see how adding a Brothel would necessary make the game darker, as in previous games the Brothel was used as more a comic relief than anything. And I suspect the people who want a Brothel would be annoyed if Bioware actually did go into the darker themes of exploitation or violance that is heavily connected with the sex trade. And if they aren't going to add to the story, is it really worth the resources? Like, I wouldn't mind if they put one in, I just don't really feel it would add much to the game for me. It didn't add much in the previous games and was actually probably the least mature part of the games Make it an S&M dungeon, I guess? Chips, dips, chains and whips with Kelly LeBrock MC'ing? In all seriousness, I agree. If it doesn't add to the story or push the narrative why have it?
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Post by cmoe on Oct 6, 2017 1:52:30 GMT
I don't really see how adding a Brothel would necessary make the game darker, as in previous games the Brothel was used as more a comic relief than anything. And I suspect the people who want a Brothel would be annoyed if Bioware actually did go into the darker themes of exploitation or violance that is heavily connected with the sex trade. And if they aren't going to add to the story, is it really worth the resources? Like, I wouldn't mind if they put one in, I just don't really feel it would add much to the game for me. It didn't add much in the previous games and was actually probably the least mature part of the games Make it an S&M dungeon, I guess? Chips, dips, chains and whips with Kelly LeBrock MC'ing?
In all seriousness, I agree. If it doesn't add to the story or push the narrative why have it? If this becomes a thing, you have only yourself to blame... or pat on the back?
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Post by river82 on Oct 6, 2017 1:55:59 GMT
I have to ask... what does it have to do with the crux of my argument? I can't say I'm not happy with the notion that you think that I don't understand the basics of what makes an interesting town, or - because it seems like it - that you think that I am arguing for a city and country in complete chaos. I do not. At best I'm pointing out that the city or setting won't exist in a vacuum. All the things you said are correct - what you fail to mention is that this part of the world can't exist outside of the story. And the story is that the Imperium is unstable and there's a hostile invasion on the horizon. For it to not be reflected in the capital of Tevinter would be bizarre, to say the least. In fact, we already know from Calpernia's short story that years of Qunari biting Tevinter's ankles has affected the city. None of what you've said I'm not acutely aware of. But AGAIN - I am not arguing for complete or near-complete chaos We already know that Tevinter is not in a peaceful state. It is also awfully segregated to classes, so whole districts can be affected without rest of the city either noticing or pretending they do. You know... just like the nobles in Winter Palace didn't notice that the entire wing of elf servants is being slaughtered - all about that culture! Or the nobles not really caring about the whereabouts of commoners or peasants. Again - culture. Then, of course, there's fact that you're only giving potential scenarios of riots and invading armies and chaos all around. But that's just some of potential scenarios. What if it is a revolt and streets are alight and full of rousing revolutionary songs, pamphlets or secret meetings? It will still be part of culture. Conflict and rise of tensions can be a catalyst for it as well, as well as making some of the long-held traditions or biases more pronounced, or the breaking with themmore stark. Culture is not just something that can be successfully depicted during times of peace, in fact many times it isn't. Most of DA isn't depicted in time of peace in fact and our protagonists break many of the societal rules because of that, while learning about accrued cultural norms and status quo in the result. Oh sure, whether it's peace or conflict will affect all of it, but this is exactly why I'm pointing out that we may not see the city or Tevinter not affected by tensions and unrest, since it's already established in DAI that they're already there. This is a public forum for everybody to read, and so I make my posts understandable for people who may not have that knowledge. It’s something I won’t be changing, sorry to say. It has never been my argument that there is complete chaos, I’m saying that the more chaos you introduce (needlessly) to a city, the less culture (unique to the history of that place and the traditions of those people) will be displayed. And that this sliding scale will continue until there’s complete chaos which will resemble almost every other place that is in complete chaos. Thus more chaos = less Tevinter culture. "Instability" is a vague and quite useless descriptor, TBH. It doesn’t matter whether the riots are confined to one portion of the city, the entire city will be affected because of this. Classes do not restrict fallout of actions to one section of the city because a city is reliant on ALL classes to run. With regards to narrative needs, the impending threat of an invasion doesn’t disrupt the daily lives of the people there too much, and that the Imperium is unstable ultimately means little. Neither of these are compelling narrative reasons to have riots in the city upon arrival, it is optional and if pursued by Bioware a rather BAD option, narrative wise. The nobles not noticing the slaughter of the elven servants is called convenient storytelling. If it wasn’t in a game it would be called bad writing. Nobles are entirely reliant on servants, pack their bags, make their food, wipe their arse, be human shields, do pretty much everything for them. So yeah, the slaughter of their servants (their PROPERTY) would be noticed, not because they care for those servants but because they are their property and essential to the estate. To say that nobles don't care about peasants so they won't notice an entire wing of servants being slaughtered is just so convenient for a story ... I wouldn’t imagine Tevinter would stomach rousing revolutionary songs in the street. Secret meetings could happen but that doesn’t affect the limiting of certain parts of the city or disruptions of normal services, which was the original point you were making I believe. At the end of the day culture is the way people behave and interact, and during times of peace the way people interact and behave are limited and moulded by the constraints specific societies and cities place on them. These differ from place to place which is where you get the differences in culture from. Secret meetings and pamphlets are still fairly peaceful activities and doesn't disrupt the every day life, limits, and constraints people will need to experience so it doesn't really lessen the Tevinter culture that much. However as that peace breaks down those limits are broken down and people’s behaviours become more and more the same. If you want to know about the culture specific to Tevinter, then yes you need to visit during times of relative peace.
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Post by kino on Oct 6, 2017 2:00:19 GMT
Make it an S&M dungeon, I guess? Chips, dips, chains and whips with Kelly LeBrock MC'ing?
In all seriousness, I agree. If it doesn't add to the story or push the narrative why have it? If this becomes a thing, you have only yourself to blame... or pat on the back? C'mon, a Weird Science easter egg in a fantasy game? That'd be awesome! Now maybe not the whole S&M thing if it weren't done right. That'd just be fucking weird then.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 6, 2017 2:08:54 GMT
No, you quite explicitly listed those as "proof" that the games were becoming too "PC". Thank you, come again. Wrong again. I used them as examples to show how the game is becoming MORE PC. How does it feel to be so easily triggered that you end up making a fool of yourself? You tell me since you're the one raving about "PC" just because gay and trans people aren't being hidden away.
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 6, 2017 2:13:30 GMT
Or BDSM themes. Or Iron Bull hiring a prostitute to take Cole's virginity. Or asking Imshael to give Inky all the virgins ... and Imshael complaining that he can't find one (except Cole). Or asking Solas about sex with spirits... or dominating indomitable focus. Or shaving pubes to funny shapes for Sera. Or admiring Dorian's naked butt. Or sex on the desk with Cullen. Or in the barn with Blackwall. Or in a cave with Cass. And so on... It is kinda funny that the first BioWare game with nudity is getting shamed for not having enough balls to include the brothels even though the brothels in DA0/2 were both incredibly tame and silly. Who can forget Morrigan putting on underwear just to have sex.
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Post by river82 on Oct 6, 2017 2:36:15 GMT
Actually, Minrathous withstood all the sieges Thedas has thrown at it, including that one time where Qunari conquered all of Tevinter... except Minrathous. So the siege doesn't have to take over entire city, nor the invasion has to be at stages where all country is conquered (the Blight didn't immediately swarm all of Ferelden) nor the magical cataclysm means plunging whole of country in chaos (the Breach didn't). As for gradual plunge from every day dissent - such narrative doesn't require telling it in one place. We can arrive and see some of the districts already rioting and see the process happening in other. Or perhaps for the process to start in another city, if we happen to visit them. Barring two origins (where we see fragments of a city rather than explore it), DAO didn't introduce city near the beginning of the game. This doesn't really affect my argument. Like I said, this is not a black and white issue and I was certainly not arguing for 'it's all just chaos!' at any time during this discussion, so obviously there's enough room for comparisons, even in a country - or a city - that is already being affected by instability, war, revolt or else. You know... kinda like it always was when we visited Thedas. By "takes over" I meant it engulfs the whole city, I didn't mean that the city would lose A siege would be such a horrible way to arrive in the city. Generally speaking sieges are the same and the way people respond is similar, and the city would be a poor reflection of Tevinter culture Cities by their very nature consume more resources than they produce. You will have food shortages and rationing, beer shortages (you’d better hope your water supply is up to scratch and pollution free … which London’s famously wasn’t back in the day.) Where will the food go? How is it rationed? The powerful would consume most, but now there's a shortage for the poor, how would that work out? Common siege tactic -> fire flaming things over the top of the walls. Now all wooden structures are burning down and people can't escape the city. Common siege tactic -> throw rotting corpses and carcasses over the walls. Uh oh, disease and pestilence running rampant, however will they cope? Guards and police and pretty much everyone that can fight are needed on the walls, how does that affect law and order in the town? Trading disrupted, what now? Generally speaking everyone just concentrates on survival, customs get thrown out the window, the way a city operates get thrown out the window ... It is true that Origins didn't start in a city, so maybe. I just hope we don't start the game in the wilderness That's usually boring My original argument is that the lack of a brothel could very well lessen the Tevinter culture conveyed in whatever city we're going to experience, but that also has to do with how they depict the sex trade over there. I disagree with you that the narrative concerns mean that disruptions and upheaval should be already happening in grandish and public ways when we enter the city. Yes the city is decaying, that should only expand the sex trade not confine it btw, but the way the city operates is still upheld. Grand shows of unrest could place the city under equivalences of martial law and conflicts start to arise and that's when culture really starts to go out the window. I would like to know how Tevinter operates before things start to boil over, and I don't think that's an unreasonable thought.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 6, 2017 2:48:33 GMT
Wrong again. I used them as examples to show how the game is becoming MORE PC. How does it feel to be so easily triggered that you end up making a fool of yourself? You tell me since you're the one raving about "PC" just because gay and trans people aren't being hidden away. Do you actually know how to debate without making strawman arguments and trying to misrepresent what the opposibg side says, or have you been following Trump too closely?
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 6, 2017 2:58:36 GMT
You tell me since you're the one raving about "PC" just because gay and trans people aren't being hidden away. Do you actually know how to debate without making strawman arguments and trying to misrepresent what the opposibg side says, or have you been following Trump too closely? This is what people refer to as projection.
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Post by xeternalxdreams on Oct 6, 2017 2:59:26 GMT
No answers as to why?
I have two guesses..
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 6, 2017 3:02:01 GMT
Do you actually know how to debate without making strawman arguments and trying to misrepresent what the opposibg side says, or have you been following Trump too closely? This is what people refer to as projection. You really are blind, aren't you? Hey, if it's the only may you can lend credibility to your argument, go for it. Just know that the rest of us see through it and regonize the true idiocy.
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Post by majesticjazz on Oct 6, 2017 3:03:10 GMT
Most mature games have sexual themes you know, and games like Witcher and God of War sex is optional to have the player to decide whether to have sex or not. Again, that is factually incorrect. There are more M games that do not involve sexual themes or content than those that do. Also, last I checked the Witcher games involve mandatory sex or suggest sex even without player input so you are incorrect there as well. Name a scenario in TW3 when I the player was forced into sex with another character?
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 6, 2017 3:06:13 GMT
This is what people refer to as projection. You really are blind, aren't you? Hey, if it's the only may you can lend credibility to your argument, go for it. Just know that the rest of us see through it and regonize the true idiocy. Thank you for proving my point.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 6, 2017 3:16:51 GMT
You really are blind, aren't you? Hey, if it's the only may you can lend credibility to your argument, go for it. Just know that the rest of us see through it and regonize the true idiocy. Thank you for proving my point. Have you hit China yet?
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 6, 2017 3:22:04 GMT
Thank you for proving my point. Have you hit China yet? Why would I? I'm not the one claiming that the existence of gay and trans people is evidence of some nefarious "agenda".
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 6, 2017 3:24:53 GMT
Why would I? I'm not the one claiming that the existence of gay and trans people is evidence of some nefarious "agenda".
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 6, 2017 3:27:43 GMT
Why would I? I'm not the one claiming that the existence of gay and trans people is evidence of some nefarious "agenda". What did I misrepresent? In your inane list of "proof" that the game's are becoming more "PC", you listed "ugly women" and the existence of gay and trans people.
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Post by naughtynomad on Oct 6, 2017 3:30:12 GMT
What did I misrepresent? In your inane list of "proof" that the game's are becoming more "PC", you listed "ugly women" and the existence of gay and trans people. "po·lit·i·cal cor·rect·ness pəˈlidəkəl kəˈrek(t)nəs/Submit noun the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against." Are you beginning to understand how stupid your argument is yet? Or do I have to explicitly spell it out for you?
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Post by sageoflife on Oct 6, 2017 3:39:36 GMT
What did I misrepresent? In your inane list of "proof" that the game's are becoming more "PC", you listed "ugly women" and the existence of gay and trans people. "po·lit·i·cal cor·rect·ness pəˈlidəkəl kəˈrek(t)nəs/Submit noun the avoidance, often considered as taken to extremes, of forms of expression or action that are perceived to exclude, marginalize, or insult groups of people who are socially disadvantaged or discriminated against." Are you beginning to understand how stupid your argument is yet? Or do I have to explicitly spell it out for you? So, acknowledging the existence of gay and trans people is extreme? Designing female characters who aren't pornstars is extreme?
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 6, 2017 3:44:02 GMT
Again, that is factually incorrect. There are more M games that do not involve sexual themes or content than those that do. Also, last I checked the Witcher games involve mandatory sex or suggest sex even without player input so you are incorrect there as well. Name a scenario in TW3 when I the player was forced into sex with another character? Note what I said, "or suggest sex". And alright, I'll give you an example. Both TW2 and TW3 start out with Geralt and either Triss or Yennefer after they have had sex. That's one of several instances throughout the game since by the time of the games Geralt is already in that kind of relationship with them.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 6, 2017 4:53:40 GMT
Name a scenario in TW3 when I the player was forced into sex with another character? Note what I said, "or suggest sex". And alright, I'll give you an example. Both TW2 and TW3 start out with Geralt and either Triss or Yennefer after they have had sex. That's one of several instances throughout the game since by the time of the games Geralt is already in that kind of relationship with them. In TW2 they did railroad you into a relationship with Triss even though you chose Shani.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Oct 6, 2017 4:58:01 GMT
I guess the question must be asked: why were they so comfortable with this kind of content before, and why shrink away from it now? Iron Bull's 'He's the one who's taking it' quip notwithstanding.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 6, 2017 5:13:12 GMT
I guess the question must be asked: why were they so comfortable with this kind of content before, and why shrink away from it now? They're just trying to be more socially progressive and inclusive. An admirable goal, though it does result in story content being rather toothless and preachy.
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