pinkjellybeans
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Oct 3, 2017 16:49:52 GMT
Heh, luckily there is no hard and fast rule that only games that include brothels are dark and/or good, interesting, etc. There is really no correlation, let alone causation. I mean brothels didn’t even play a major role in the first two games. You can make a dark and interesting game without them. You're missing the point though. It's not about the possibility of there not being brothels in future games anymore, it's about the developers constantly cutting content that seems to be inclined towards a more darker/controversial theme. It's not the first time they also speak of these things (torture, rape, etc.) like it's something horrible to have in games. I mean, obviously it is horrible in real life, but video games are not reality and they seem to be going into a more lighter path because they don't want to offend a certain group of people or simply because they don't think it's politically correct. That's what's worrying me. But hey, maybe Mark didn't even mean anything with his tweet.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 3, 2017 16:53:13 GMT
Heh, luckily there is no hard and fast rule that only games that include brothels are dark and/or good, interesting, etc. There is really no correlation, let alone causation. I mean brothels didn’t even play a major role in the first two games. You can make a dark and interesting game without them. You're missing the point though. It's not about the possibility of there not being brothels in future games anymore, it's about the developers constantly cutting content that seems to be inclined towards a more darker theme. It's not the first time they also speak of these things (torture, rape, etc.) like it's bad thing. Obviously it is a bad thing, but video games are not reality and they seem to be going into a more lighter path because they don't want to offend a certain group of people or simply because they don't think it's politically correct themselves. That's what's worrying me. But hey, maybe Mark didn't even mean anything with his tweet. Oh please, removal of brothels is not a sign that Bioware is going PC. This a game where an Elf is going to commit genocide to undo his mistakes and create a world for the elves. That’s far from PC.
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Post by Psychevore on Oct 3, 2017 16:53:20 GMT
So it's not a true RPG, right?
Cause in true RPGs you can murder everyone and fuck for money. Or something.
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luketrevelyan
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Post by luketrevelyan on Oct 3, 2017 16:56:24 GMT
You're missing the point though. It's not about the possibility of there not being brothels in future games anymore, it's about the developers constantly cutting content that seems to be inclined towards a more darker theme. It's not the first time they also speak of these things (torture, rape, etc.) like it's bad thing. Obviously it is a bad thing, but video games are not reality and they seem to be going into a more lighter path because they don't want to offend a certain group of people or simply because they don't think it's politically correct themselves. That's what's worrying me. But hey, maybe Mark didn't even mean anything with his tweet. Oh please, removal of brothels is not a sign that Bioware is going PC. This a game where an Elf is going to commit genocide to undo his mistakes and create a world for the elves. That’s far from PC. I don't feel like that is a very good example because villains are always allowed to do horrible things, even in Disney movies. We can't join Solas. If we could, then you would have a point. In Kotor, you could be truly evil.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 3, 2017 16:56:38 GMT
Good. I'm glad they are continuing to not include brothels in the games. Especially in Tevinter where it would be using sex slaves. It's a waste of resources anyway that could go to countless better things.
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pinkjellybeans
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Oct 3, 2017 16:58:00 GMT
You're missing the point though. It's not about the possibility of there not being brothels in future games anymore, it's about the developers constantly cutting content that seems to be inclined towards a more darker theme. It's not the first time they also speak of these things (torture, rape, etc.) like it's bad thing. Obviously it is a bad thing, but video games are not reality and they seem to be going into a more lighter path because they don't want to offend a certain group of people or simply because they don't think it's politically correct themselves. That's what's worrying me. But hey, maybe Mark didn't even mean anything with his tweet. Oh please, removal of brothels is not a sign that Bioware is going PC. This a game where an Elf is going to commit genocide to undo his mistakes and create a world for the elves. That’s far from PC. *sigh* Can we please stop with the brothels for a second? It's more than that. Did you even read my comment? And what you described isn't dark, that's just a regular plot for a video game, lol. In every game there's a villain who murders people because whatever reason. Next thing you know you're going to tell me DAI is dark because you kill hundreds of people in combat.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 17:02:45 GMT
It had everything to do with Solas being an elven apostate or - more importantly - it being later used as potential leverage against Inquisitor or worse: put their lovers in even more of a harm's way. And I've given it as an example, because it was explicitly stated in the game, though I'm fairly sure similar reasons were why Inquisitor chose to save the dance out of sight of everyone. And I do like to point out that people indeed have concerns when it comes to image, especially if Inky hooks up with Dorian. Heck, even being friends with the Vint produces concerned comments from Mother Giselle and Cassandra. IMO this just doesn't hold up when you consider the fact that NONE of the DAI LIs have a public dance, even the "respectable" ones like Cullen, Josephine, and Cassandra. All of them dance at the end, when the trouble is over, and all of them are on the balcony. To me, it actually comes across as more of an intimate moment with the LI than it would if they had gone into the ballroom. Problem is, that it is an intimate moment that is separate from Inquisitor's invitation of Solas to dance in the ballroom. I understand gameplay limitations, but that still doesn't change the fact that we can still ask Solas to dance and he declines by bringing up that it wouldn't be well received. If it wasn't a concern in the story, we could've talked about something else. After all, Solas just revealed that he revels in atmosphere of the Game, so that in itself opens a whole plethora of potential dialogue options, yet the thing they've decided to bring up is that dancing with elven apostate where everyone can see it would be an issue (which, even disregarding Solas's potentially considerable experience with court intrigue, is still sort of a no-brainer, really).
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formerfiend
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 17:10:38 GMT
Yeah, my issue isn't about them making the games more PC. It's about them giving us fewer options to define our protagonists' personality and fitting us into a very narrow view of what they think the protagonist should be. We have less options to play our character as a hedonist, or a sleeze, or even a noble lech.
There are options but it's scatttershot. A lesbian Inquisitor can fuck Sera on the roof of the tavern - a roof that's slanted down and visible to pretty much everyone in the courtyard of Skyhold. So a lesbian Inquisitor romancing Sera can fuck in front of the whole of Skyhold but is still so bound by social perception that they can't step foot in a brothel.
And I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about straight men getting ripped off because that isn't what this is, but there is the fact that a straight male Inquisitor's options are Cassandra and Josephine, who, while very different characters, have very similar romance arcs that are based on romantic ideals that do not lend themselves to playing a hedonist character. If I want to play a hedonistic male character my option is essentially, flirt with Harding and headcannon that he sneaks into the Blooming Rose off screen every time I make a trip to the Black Emporium.
I want more options to define my character's personality and not be pidgeonholed into this ideal. In several respects - not all, by any means, but several - Witcher 3 gives me more options to define the personality of Geralt even though he's a set, pre-existing character with a predefined history and no customization options other than hair and beard styling.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 17:11:28 GMT
Oh please, removal of brothels is not a sign that Bioware is going PC. This a game where an Elf is going to commit genocide to undo his mistakes and create a world for the elves. That’s far from PC. *sigh* Can we please stop with the brothels for a second? It's more than that. Did you even read my comment? And what you described isn't dark, that's just a regular plot for a video game, lol. In every game there's a villain who murders people because whatever reason. Next thing you know you're going to tell me DAI is dark because you kill hundreds of people in combat. "Dark" seems to be a very arbitrary label. Because I can't really see how DAI's story is not full of stuff that's not just dark, but bleak. Every organization, no mater how noble, getting corrupted and its intentions twisted and warped, us fighting the faction that was presented in first game as heroes, treading the thin line between truth and lies that ensure that people join our cause, saving the world and the world slowly turning against us and so on... And no - a regular plot for video game doesn't usually gives you a companion to get to know and perhaps even befriend or romance only to reveal that he's on a mission that he may destroy the world. And we don't even know what we'd have to do in order to stop him... or whether we even want to stop him?
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 17:15:46 GMT
Good. I'm glad they are continuing to not include brothels in the games. Especially in Tevinter where it would be using sex slaves. It's a waste of resources anyway that could go to countless better things. Okay, to be fair, that's a point. I'm certainly of the opinion that if there is to be a line - and there should be - it should be drawn at our character not being allowed to commit rape, and sleeping with a sex slave is rape. Full stop, that is something we shouldn't be allowed to do, however evil the game allows us to be in other respects. That being said, the brothel could be in Rivain.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2017 17:18:51 GMT
How could Hawke have survived the first three (or more) years without the Blooming Rose?
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formerfiend
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 17:22:25 GMT
How could Hawke have survived the first three (or more) years without the Blooming Rose? I mean, aside from not waiting 3+ years to take Isabela up on the invitation she gave the night they met? But yeah, no, aside from that I got nothing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 3, 2017 17:23:30 GMT
How could Hawke have survived the first three (or more) years without the Blooming Rose? My Hawkes never used the services provided by the Rose and they did just fine.
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midnight tea
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 17:24:17 GMT
I want more options to define my character's personality and not be pidgeonholed into this ideal. In several respects - not all, by any means, but several - Witcher 3 gives me more options to define the personality of Geralt even though he's a set, pre-existing character with a predefined history and no customization options other than hair and beard styling. You're not given options to define Geralt but refine him. You can never play Geralt as anything other than Geralt - the Witcher with fixed back story and mostly fixed relationships. Ironically, that's what gives Geralt more options for refinement - because the game can only concern itself with Geralt. It doesn't have to contain all that content for all the other potential races, sexual orientations, way more romance options and companions (and the fact that we can befriend them or not) and so on. In other words, it's comparing apples to oranges. Fixed characters will naturally have more options to define their personality, because they already come in pre-defined package - unlike games with deeply customizable characters.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 17:27:00 GMT
Heh, luckily there is no hard and fast rule that only games that include brothels are dark and/or good, interesting, etc. There is really no correlation, let alone causation. I mean brothels didn’t even play a major role in the first two games. You can make a dark and interesting game without them. You're missing the point though. It's not about the possibility of there not being brothels in future games anymore, it's about the developers constantly cutting content that seems to be inclined towards a more darker theme. It's not the first time they also speak of these things (torture, rape, etc.) like it's something bad. I mean, obviously it's bad, but video games are not reality and they seem to be going into a more lighter path because they don't want to offend a certain group of people or simply because they don't think it's politically correct. That's what's worrying me. But hey, maybe Mark didn't even mean anything with his tweet. I am not missing this point, no. For me it depends on what we are getting, not on what we are not getting.
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formerfiend
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 17:27:27 GMT
I've never understood that phrase. They're both fruit; why can't I compare one fruit to another?
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2017 17:30:05 GMT
Good. I'm glad they are continuing to not include brothels in the games. Especially in Tevinter where it would be using sex slaves. It's a waste of resources anyway that could go to countless better things. 1. A slave-holder society without slaves would very interesting... (No.) 2. Not only slaves can be prostitutes. 3. Not a waste of resources: may be a mood element of a corrupt city/society. +1 NOT mandatory...
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 17:30:41 GMT
I've never understood that phrase. They're both fruit; why can't I compare one fruit to another? Because while both are categorized as fruit, they're not the same thing.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2017 17:36:46 GMT
How could Hawke have survived the first three (or more) years without the Blooming Rose? My Hawkes never used the services provided by the Rose and they did just fine. Don't be judgemental! Carver used as well... Isabela: I saw you at the Blooming Rose the other night. Carver: What? No you didn't. Isabela: I suppose someone else stole your chin to romance Faith? Carver: (Scoffs) That's unlikely. She wasn't even working. Isabela: Mm-hmm. Got you. (The next line changes depending on your third party member) Aveline: Carver! Varric: Oh ho! Nicely done. Merrill: I don't get it. (If one of the previous lines didn't trigger, and Hawke has not slept with anyone in the Blooming Rose) Hawke: Carver, what would Mother say? Carver: You're just... that's not what I... shit!
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Oct 3, 2017 17:38:56 GMT
My Hawkes never used the services provided by the Rose and they did just fine. Don't be judgemental! Carver used as well... Isabela: I saw you at the Blooming Rose the other night. Carver: What? No you didn't. Isabela: I suppose someone else stole your chin to romance Faith? Carver: (Scoffs) That's unlikely. She wasn't even working. Isabela: Mm-hmm. Got you. (The next line changes depending on your third party member) Aveline: Carver! Varric: Oh ho! Nicely done. Merrill: I don't get it. (If one of the previous lines didn't trigger, and Hawke has not slept with anyone in the Blooming Rose) Hawke: Carver, what would Mother say? Carver: You're just... that's not what I... shit! Where was I judgmental in my post? All I said was my Hawkes didn't use prostitutes. I don't care if Carver used them or not. That's up to him, not me.
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theascendent
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Post by theascendent on Oct 3, 2017 17:40:33 GMT
Hmmm. I suppose it makes a certain degree of sense. It's a rare privilege for the wealthy elite, makes sense in an extremely patriarchal and conservative society as Tevinter, not available for the rabble. So I support their reasoning and so long as it makes sense lore wise I can live visiting Tevinter and not have an option to visit a brothel.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 17:41:16 GMT
I've never understood that phrase. They're both fruit; why can't I compare one fruit to another? Because while both are categorized as fruit, they're not the same thing. That's why the full scope of what one does is not simply and solely to compare but to compare and contrast. We as human beings are perfectly capable of examining both the similarities and differences of two things that fall under one category but are not the same. The fact that the review industry exists is proof enough of that. Saying that one thing cannot be compared to another thing because they are not the same thing is a cop out only used when one doesn't think that one of those things can hold up to the scrutiny of being compared to a different but similar thing. Now I am sure that you and I are perfectly capable of carrying on a tangent debate on this subject for another five fucking pages but I'd appreciate it if we could not get distracted being that you and I absolutely incapable of convincing each other of anything, and move on from my minor example about how as Geralt, a predefined character, I'm given the option of partaking in or abstaining from brothels where as as the Inquisitor I am not so much given the option to express the desire to visit a brothel only to be lectured by Josephine as to why that's unacceptable for someone in my position and to be reluctantly cowed into acceptance of that fact.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 17:55:14 GMT
Yeah, my issue isn't about them making the games more PC. It's about them giving us fewer options to define our protagonists' personality and fitting us into a very narrow view of what they think the protagonist should be. We have less options to play our character as a hedonist, or a sleeze, or even a noble lech. There are options but it's scatttershot. A lesbian Inquisitor can fuck Sera on the roof of the tavern - a roof that's slanted down and visible to pretty much everyone in the courtyard of Skyhold. So a lesbian Inquisitor romancing Sera can fuck in front of the whole of Skyhold but is still so bound by social perception that they can't step foot in a brothel. And I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about straight men getting ripped off because that isn't what this is, but there is the fact that a straight male Inquisitor's options are Cassandra and Josephine, who, while very different characters, have very similar romance arcs that are based on romantic ideals that do not lend themselves to playing a hedonist character. If I want to play a hedonistic male character my option is essentially, flirt with Harding and headcannon that he sneaks into the Blooming Rose off screen every time I make a trip to the Black Emporium. I want more options to define my character's personality and not be pidgeonholed into this ideal. In several respects - not all, by any means, but several - Witcher 3 gives me more options to define the personality of Geralt even though he's a set, pre-existing character with a predefined history and no customization options other than hair and beard styling. SWTOR is still the best game for me in this respect in some stories, because it allows you to play what you wish from a variety of encounters ranging from a casual smile/wave at someone attractive, infatuation to serious love story with someone who is not your designated future spouse. Trooper story in particular makes a complex moral choice around someone who might have been your lover, or, in case of my Trooper someone he had feelings for but stayed loyal to his One True love, and her life was weighed against the life of multiple people he did not know, and his orders.... On another character, I did not like my designated LI, so I played through a long and awesome planetary story like with Reyes instead. Replicating feelings of attraction and lighter side of the character is not a bad thing. It does not have to involve frequent brothel visits, you do not have to hit every flirt in existence, etc. Also brothel on its own does not contribute to dark atmosphere. In DA2, brothel scenes are comic if anything, while dark murders happen in the confines of the family homes, or within a proper courtship ritual. I am going to leave the topic of romances for a male PC and how satisfying they maybe alone, because I frankly felt that the male options were far, far more satisfying than the female PC ones thanks to Dorian (so I basically just like you liked the option reserved for the same sex romance more than the ones available to my gender), but they all pale in comparison to DA2 romances, and Swtor options for male Smuggler and Agent imo. Again, it is not what specifically will not be included, it is what will be.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 17:56:21 GMT
1. A slave-holder society without slaves would very interesting... (No.) 2. Not only slaves can be prostitutes. 3. Not a waste of resources: may be a mood element of a corrupt city/society. +1 NOT mandatory... In all likelihood, there probably would be slave prostitutes in the brothels because they'd be cheaper to employ. Even a freeman paid little is still paid something.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2017 17:58:42 GMT
Hmmm. I suppose it makes a certain degree of sense. It's a rare privilege for the wealthy elite, makes sense in an extremely patriarchal and conservative society as Tevinter, not available for the rabble. So I support their reasoning and so long as it makes sense lore wise I can live visiting Tevinter and not have an option to visit a brothel. No. The brothels were never privileges. It depends on the level of the "institute".
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