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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 17:59:53 GMT
1. A slave-holder society without slaves would very interesting... (No.) 2. Not only slaves can be prostitutes. 3. Not a waste of resources: may be a mood element of a corrupt city/society. +1 NOT mandatory... In all likelihood, there probably would be slave prostitutes in the brothels because they'd be cheaper to employ. Even a freeman paid little is still paid something. Not if the owner is required by law to care well for the slaves he owns, while the free women are nobody's responsibility.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2017 18:01:08 GMT
1. A slave-holder society without slaves would very interesting... (No.) 2. Not only slaves can be prostitutes. 3. Not a waste of resources: may be a mood element of a corrupt city/society. +1 NOT mandatory... In all likelihood, there probably would be slave prostitutes in the brothels because they'd be cheaper to employ. Even a freeman paid little is still paid something. Not all likelihood. In Ancient Rome, for example, not only the slaves were prostitutes.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 18:01:12 GMT
I mean brothels didn’t even play a major role in the first two games. You can make a dark and interesting game without them. I'd argue that the brothels in the previous game were primarily used for comedy and not to reflect something dark in their respective societies.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 18:02:19 GMT
Not if the owner is required by law to care well for the slaves he owns, while the free women are nobody's responsibility. Tevinter's a seat for corruption. There may be such laws but I doubt they're paid anything but lip service to. I may be mistaken but I don't recall anything that suggested that such laws existed, however.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 18:04:44 GMT
Not if the owner is required by law to care well for the slaves he owns, while the free women are nobody's responsibility. Tevinter's a seat for corruption. There may be such pays but I doubt they're paid anything but lip service to. Corruption takes efforts and is pricey, so what's easier/more profitable will always win. Honestly, I just want choices like in SWTOR, and interesting content in Tevinter.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 18:07:15 GMT
In all likelihood, there probably would be slave prostitutes in the brothels because they'd be cheaper to employ. Even a freeman paid little is still paid something. Not all likelihood. In Ancient Rome, for example, not only the slaves were prostitutes. Weren't the prostitute in ancient Rome precluded from certain civil rights on account of their profession? It's been a while since I last looked at life in Rome.
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Post by Fredward on Oct 3, 2017 18:07:42 GMT
Soon we'll no longer kill enemies, we'll gently knock them unconscious in a way that leaves no threat for brain damage. Or talking them through their troubled childhood.
I don't really care all that much about the presence of a brothel but we've been hearing about how terrible Tevinter is for three games now. I'm expecting dark decadence, it's going to be extremely disappointing if the only place that version of Tevinter exists is if you read between the lines of Codex entries.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 18:09:47 GMT
Because while both are categorized as fruit, they're not the same thing. That's why the full scope of what one does is not simply and solely to compare but to compare and contrast. We as human beings are perfectly capable of examining both the similarities and differences of two things that fall under one category but are not the same. The fact that the review industry exists is proof enough of that. Saying that one thing cannot be compared to another thing because they are not the same thing is a cop out only used when one doesn't think that one of those things can hold up to the scrutiny of being compared to a different but similar thing. But you were not comparing and contrasting. You brought a different game to the mix to compare it to the other and ignored the differences between them to try and make your point. That's sort of the epitome of apples and oranges - or, to put it in less informal terms, false equivalence. I... heh, another false equivalence. You're talking about a different thing now that is irrelevant to the game being about fixed/customizable characters. And before you dismiss it as something minor - I actually made it a significant point in the discussion with other people and on my own to bring why there are differences between Geralt and characters like Inky. Nobody really cares what Geralt does in his spare time. As far as regular populace is concerned, Geralt can shag people left and right without it being a fuel for political be-or-not-to-be. That's not the same with Inquisitor, who is in a different position within the world - a position that is also different to that of HoF and Hawke, at least through major portion of games about them.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 3, 2017 18:11:27 GMT
Not all likelihood. In Ancient Rome, for example, not only the slaves were prostitutes. Weren't the prostitute in ancient Rome precluded from certain civil rights on account of their profession? It's been a while since I last looked at life in Rome. They may not have been Roman citizens, but not all were slaves.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 18:12:23 GMT
Yeah, my issue isn't about them making the games more PC. It's about them giving us fewer options to define our protagonists' personality and fitting us into a very narrow view of what they think the protagonist should be. We have less options to play our character as a hedonist, or a sleeze, or even a noble lech. There are options but it's scatttershot. A lesbian Inquisitor can fuck Sera on the roof of the tavern - a roof that's slanted down and visible to pretty much everyone in the courtyard of Skyhold. So a lesbian Inquisitor romancing Sera can fuck in front of the whole of Skyhold but is still so bound by social perception that they can't step foot in a brothel. And I don't want to sound like I'm complaining about straight men getting ripped off because that isn't what this is, but there is the fact that a straight male Inquisitor's options are Cassandra and Josephine, who, while very different characters, have very similar romance arcs that are based on romantic ideals that do not lend themselves to playing a hedonist character. If I want to play a hedonistic male character my option is essentially, flirt with Harding and headcannon that he sneaks into the Blooming Rose off screen every time I make a trip to the Black Emporium. I want more options to define my character's personality and not be pidgeonholed into this ideal. In several respects - not all, by any means, but several - Witcher 3 gives me more options to define the personality of Geralt even though he's a set, pre-existing character with a predefined history and no customization options other than hair and beard styling. SWTOR is still the best game for me in this respect in some stories, because it allows you to play what you wish from a variety of encounters ranging from a casual smile/wave at someone attractive, infatuation to serious love story with someone who is not your designated future spouse. Trooper story in particular makes a complex moral choice around someone who might have been your lover, or, in case of my Trooper someone he had feelings for but stayed loyal to his One True love, and her life was weighed against the life of multiple people he did not know, and his orders.... On another character, I did not like my designated LI, so I played through a long and awesome planetary story like with Reyes instead. Replicating feelings of attraction and lighter side of the character is not a bad thing. It does not have to involve frequent brothel visits, you do not have to hit every flirt in existence, etc. Also brothel on its own does not contribute to dark atmosphere. In DA2, brothel scenes are comic if anything, while dark murders happen in the confines of the family homes, or within a proper courtship ritual. I am going to leave the topic of romances for a male PC and how satisfying they maybe alone, because I frankly felt that the male options were far, far more satisfying than the female PC ones thanks to Dorian (so I basically just like you liked the option reserved for the same sex romance more than the ones available to my gender), but they all pale in comparison to DA2 romances, and Swtor options for male Smuggler and Agent imo. Again, it is not what specifically will not be included, it is what will be. I do want to be clear that I do enjoy Cassandra's romance and find it satisfying and while Josephine's doesn't personally appeal to me I don't think there's anything wrong with it; my issue isn't that the two aren't satisfying but that I don't think they're significantly different in tone and theme and therefore lack variety. Cassandra's has explicit nudity and is explicitly sexual where as Josephine's is deliberately vague on that issue and is up to the player's interpretation, but that's a stylistic decision more so than a thematic one. Both are based on ideals of high romance and while that's fine and enjoyable, I do feel short changed in not having an option like Sera or Iron Bull or going back to previous games, like Morrigan or Isabela.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 18:15:48 GMT
SWTOR is still the best game for me in this respect in some stories, because it allows you to play what you wish from a variety of encounters ranging from a casual smile/wave at someone attractive, infatuation to serious love story with someone who is not your designated future spouse. Trooper story in particular makes a complex moral choice around someone who might have been your lover, or, in case of my Trooper someone he had feelings for but stayed loyal to his One True love, and her life was weighed against the life of multiple people he did not know, and his orders.... On another character, I did not like my designated LI, so I played through a long and awesome planetary story like with Reyes instead. Replicating feelings of attraction and lighter side of the character is not a bad thing. It does not have to involve frequent brothel visits, you do not have to hit every flirt in existence, etc. Also brothel on its own does not contribute to dark atmosphere. In DA2, brothel scenes are comic if anything, while dark murders happen in the confines of the family homes, or within a proper courtship ritual. I am going to leave the topic of romances for a male PC and how satisfying they maybe alone, because I frankly felt that the male options were far, far more satisfying than the female PC ones thanks to Dorian (so I basically just like you liked the option reserved for the same sex romance more than the ones available to my gender), but they all pale in comparison to DA2 romances, and Swtor options for male Smuggler and Agent imo. Again, it is not what specifically will not be included, it is what will be. I do want to be clear that I do enjoy Cassandra's romance and find it satisfying and while Josephine's doesn't personally appeal to me I don't think there's anything wrong with it; my issue isn't that the two aren't satisfying but that I don't think they're significantly different in tone and theme and therefore lack variety. Cassandra's has explicit nudity and is explicitly sexual where as Josephine's is deliberately vague on that issue and is up to the player's interpretation, but that's a stylistic decision more so than a thematic one. Both are based on ideals of high romance and while that's fine and enjoyable, I do feel short changed in not having an option like Sera or Iron Bull or going back to previous games, like Morrigan or Isabela. Well, I feel shortchanged after Anders, Alistair, Sebastian and Fenris when I look at Iron Bull and Blackwall. No fun, no drama, no plot relevance, no good looks. Dorian and Cassandra got all that. I guess I will also headcanon visits to an un-named lover in Kirkwall.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 18:21:43 GMT
In all likelihood, there probably would be slave prostitutes in the brothels because they'd be cheaper to employ. Even a freeman paid little is still paid something. Not all likelihood. In Ancient Rome, for example, not only the slaves were prostitutes. Well if we're talking about prostitution, we can't forget about courtesans - the exclusive kind of prostitutes for wealthy or upper-class clients that don't just sell sex, but oftentimes companionship and other forms of entertainment like dance, playing instrument or educated conversation, and whow also not that rarely manage to secure some measure of power or influence. Greek Hetairai come to mind. I'd say that given the Tevinter upper class is portrayed as decadent and it's possible we're going to interact with members of upper-class (aside from Dorian, Mae or other Lucerni) it's not entirely impossible to meet or see some courtesans among them too.
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Post by vonuber on Oct 3, 2017 18:24:45 GMT
I'd have no issue with a brothel, as long as it caters to all sexes.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 18:26:50 GMT
Well, I feel shortchanged after Anders, Alistair, Sebastian and Fenris when I look at Iron Bull and Blackwall. No fun, no drama, no plot relevance, no good looks. Dorian and Cassandra got all that. I'd hardly consider there to be no drama concerning Blackwall. He lies about his identity and I remember there've been threads about the lies and his crimes. The latter especially inspired discussions and strong opinions including from people whose characters romanced him.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 3, 2017 18:29:10 GMT
OK, here I go.
So I've been pretty vocal about my criticism of the brothels in Dragon Age. I don't have an objection to the idea of sex work , though I recognize there's a lot of women forced in prostitution and the ethics have always troubled me a little.
But putting aside the ethical concerns, the brothels in Dragon Age were a bit, well, boring. Oh, I appreciated the novelty, and I don't mind saying that my Warden and Hawke paid for a bit of dip n' stir prior to starting a romance. (Post-romance, it felt wrong.) But they weren't very titillating, and the jokes about special services were wearing a bit thin.
So what's the point, if they're not entertaining in a very base manner? Resources better spent elsewhere, in my opinion. We also have actual nudity in the romances now.
Having said that, I've expressed concerns about the tone of DA4 based on the direction I'm seeing Dragon Age going in. I see Bioware as increasingly bending to the will of people who conflate depictions of unfortunate subject matter with endorsements of that subject matter, and who want their video games to be fun and safe and free from any political comment. (That goes for both extremes of the political spectrum.)
Oh, we can't mention rape because it will offend people. We can't have scantily-dressed desire demons because it will offend people. We can't depict anyone who isn't white and straight as evil because it will offend people.
Can Bioware depict slavery in all of its ugliness? Can it show people being sold? Can it show both good and evil people in Tevinter owning slaves? I have my doubts.
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Post by Syv on Oct 3, 2017 18:30:06 GMT
Good. I'm glad they are continuing to not include brothels in the games. Especially in Tevinter where it would be using sex slaves. It's a waste of resources anyway that could go to countless better things. And ? You are saying it shouldn't be done, because, bouhou, it's bad, a reason that has nothing to do with building a story and a RP video game ? If you didn't say that, forget the rest of my post. However I do have strong feelings about this subject, and it's one of the rare topics potential enough to make me feel angry. It is a RP game, it's a video game. Players should keep their political correctness and politics where it should belong. Your character doesn't want to use sex slaves, cool then don't do it, don't pick that option. As simple as that. Have a quest to help them for example, on the opposite. There is no reason to not developp such thing simply because that would make you - the player - uncomfortable. Actually that is very helpful for building a strong emotional story, and a strong RP, where it could be shown how much slavery is not a joke. it's a game for adults. I'm tired of all these folks that ruin the entertainement and potential strong stories with their ridiculous complaints that have nothing to do with video games and where the game developpers don't dare anymore to do things they would like ( or not ) just because it would offend an annoying, authoritarian and noisy minority. I don't remember being punched in the gut with DA:I, as it was the case with DAO and DA2, even if I liked that game. Did you see all we can do or that happens in DAO and DAII ? Did you play the dwarf origins, with the carta ? Did you play the elven origin ? It's very dark, it's also into the dragon age universe. There is no reason that DA4 should avoid a few things because of a ridiculous political correctness ( boooohoo sex slaves, it's baaad ) that has so much invaded the media nowaday, corrupted by the leftist and authoritarian ideologies or SJW like Anita ( boohouu rape, baaaad, no mooore . Yeah no it's a story, if we start removing everything that makes us uncomfortable, time to get used to only having boring stories). For god's sake we were able to sell Fenris as a slave to Danarius in DAII, we could let Vaughan rape the girls in DAO, we could kill Connor. DAO was still a materpiece and people loved that game for what it was. It wasn't an issue before, why it could be suddenly now ? Rp your character as you wish, stop requiring that some content should disappear, geez. Anyways I hope Bioware won't fall even into that dumb political corectness. They better not spoil Tevinter. This country has definitely a dark side. I won't forgive them if they turn it into something, sort of lovely place that doesn't really fit the lore. They cannot spoil the most fascinating country of Thedas. That city better not be sanitized and absolutely clean, where we see nothing dark, while in the lore, Tevinter has definitely a dark side. Show it. Don't just talk about it. I replayed DAO today, the dwarf origins and the elven origins, and yeah I definitely agree with all those who complained about DA:I that felt sanitized compared to the previous episodes. Impressing how just playing the dAO origins made me reallize the difference between the last episode and the two previous ones. Also, claiming that a brothel would be a wast of resources doesn't mean anything. It helps giving life and immersion, you could have characters, quests built around that building, etc etc. I didn't feel at all it was useless in DAO and DAII anyways. PS : To be clear, I don't really care if we have brothels or not.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 18:31:28 GMT
I'd have no issue with a brothel, as long as it caters to all sexes. So far they have. Actually, come to think of it, I'm wondering if the decision to excise brothels from the series is less to do with them deliberately dictating the protagonist's morality and personality and more to do with them distancing themselves from the whole, playing transgender/drag queen prostitutes for comedy thing that they did in both the Pearl and the Blooming Rose.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 3, 2017 18:34:21 GMT
Well, I feel shortchanged after Anders, Alistair, Sebastian and Fenris when I look at Iron Bull and Blackwall. No fun, no drama, no plot relevance, no good looks. Dorian and Cassandra got all that. Did you seriously just use "no drama" after a list that included Blackwall? If you discount Solas, because his romance doesn't go belly-up until the end, and neither do we know about the Dread Wolf until Trespasser, Blackwall is the most dramatic LI in the entire game. It turns out in the end that Solas is the most plot relevant LI of them all. While you may not find Cullen attractive, he is the most "traditionally" attractive of the f/m options.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Oct 3, 2017 18:34:29 GMT
Yeah, my issue isn't about them making the games more PC. It's about them giving us fewer options to define our protagonists' personality and fitting us into a very narrow view of what they think the protagonist should be. Both those things can be connected though. If they cut content because they don't think it's PC then you have fewer options to roleplay how you want. My issue with this isn't that my character won't be allow to go to brothels. I want dark, gripping storylines about murder, poverty, slavery, etc. but I fear we will get none of that, or we might get it but it will be very tamed or just a slight mention, because God forbid if a handful of players get triggered while playing a freaking video game. If people get offended so easily, then perhaps they should be better off watching some Disney movies or play games like The Sims. Besides, I don't know where they get this notion that people won't like that sort of content when it was there in past games and it's present in other popular games as well. I honestly think it's more about how the writers feel about such themes and how they mirror those beliefs in the writing and presentation, which is even worse because they're making a game for millions of people and not for themselves. But well, I guess it's a bit early to be panicking about such things. We'll see how it goes. *sigh* Can we please stop with the brothels for a second? It's more than that. Did you even read my comment? And what you described isn't dark, that's just a regular plot for a video game, lol. In every game there's a villain who murders people because whatever reason. Next thing you know you're going to tell me DAI is dark because you kill hundreds of people in combat. "Dark" seems to be a very arbitrary label. Because I can't really see how DAI's story is not full of stuff that's not just dark, but bleak. Every organization, no mater how noble, getting corrupted and its intentions twisted and warped, us fighting the faction that was presented in first game as heroes, treading the thin line between truth and lies that ensure that people join our cause, saving the world and the world slowly turning against us and so on... And no - a regular plot for video game doesn't usually gives you a companion to get to know and perhaps even befriend or romance only to reveal that he's on a mission that he may destroy the world. And we don't even know what we'd have to do in order to stop him... or whether we even want to stop him? But then compare that to DAO or DA2. Name something in DAI that is as traumatizing as the Broodmother or Leandra's death. There are a lot of things in DAI that are dark in theory but I feel like most of the times they failed on the execution, so it ends up not being as impactful as it should be. But I think that's probably subjective anyway, so.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Oct 3, 2017 18:35:35 GMT
Brothels are too racist or sexist or something...
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 3, 2017 18:36:21 GMT
So far they have. Actually, come to think of it, I'm wondering if the decision to excise brothels from the series is less to do with them deliberately dictating the protagonist's morality and personality and more to do with them distancing themselves from the whole, playing transgender/drag queen prostitutes for comedy thing that they did in both the Pearl and the Blooming Rose. I don't remember that person in the Pearl. Or do you actually have to partake in order to see them?
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 18:39:54 GMT
So far they have. Actually, come to think of it, I'm wondering if the decision to excise brothels from the series is less to do with them deliberately dictating the protagonist's morality and personality and more to do with them distancing themselves from the whole, playing transgender/drag queen prostitutes for comedy thing that they did in both the Pearl and the Blooming Rose. I don't remember that person in the Pearl. Or do you actually have to partake in order to see them? You have to ask to see both some of the men and some of the women and in between them you'll have a couple of elven prostitutes with female bodies but male heads and faces with very masculine voices, with lines like, "you have to slay the dragon if you want to rescue the princess" and things like that.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 3, 2017 18:40:10 GMT
We don’t even know why they’re not going to appear. To call it as an act of political correctness is overblown.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Oct 3, 2017 18:40:25 GMT
brothels are demeaning to men moreso than women, I thought Bioware wanted that?
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Oct 3, 2017 18:41:21 GMT
Witcher 3 had brothels.
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