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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 18:41:25 GMT
I don't remember that person in the Pearl. Or do you actually have to partake in order to see them? In addition to what formerfiend has said, in one of the "Surprise Me" scenarios, the Warden can wake up to a dwarf dressed in women's clothes.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 3, 2017 18:42:23 GMT
Aside from the Tevinter whitewashing and general Western hypocrisies over sex in general, there's something about this decision that feels false. The devs want to appear progressive by avoiding brothels and sex workers, but that can just as easily seem smug, patronizing and judgmental. Prostitution usually attracts broken and desperate people, no one can deny that. But to claim the entire trade is an irredeemable horror show is narrow minded and disingenuous. Some view it as a job like any other, and some *gasp!* actually enjoy it, who genuinely see it as a way to help others relieve stress and loneliness and have fun. Indeed, there are sex therapists and surrogates who have used prostitution to aid in individual and couples counseling, and to promote health education and sex positivity. Such people are obviously rare, but they do exist. Instead of exploring the creative possibilities of much needed pro-sex portrayals, Bioware took the clichéd and lazy "sex outside of loving monogamy is bad" trope.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 18:44:44 GMT
Aside from the Tevinter whitewashing and general Western hypocrisies over sex in general, there's something about this decision that feels false. The devs want to appear progressive by avoiding brothels and sex workers, but that can just as easily seem smug, patronizing and judgmental. Prostitution usually attracts broken and desperate people, no one can deny that. But to claim the entire trade is an irredeemable horror show is narrow minded and disingenuous. Some view it as a job like any other, and some *gasp!* actually enjoy it, who genuinely see it as a way to help others relieve stress and loneliness and have fun. Indeed, there are sex therapists and surrogates who have used prostitution to aid in individual and couples counseling, and to promote health education and sex positivity. Such people are obviously rare, but they do exist. Instead of exploring the creative possibilities of much needed pro-sex portrayals, Bioware took the clichéd and lazy "sex outside of loving monogamy is bad" trope. Once again, the brothels in the previous games were mainly used for comedy and the prostitution profession primarily portrayed only positively. There was little nuance to be found in the presentation and little exploration of prostitution and the people involved in it. It was a very clean portrayal.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 3, 2017 18:45:23 GMT
A response to a Twitter thread post... I think we're looking into it too deep and prob they just would rather focus on the story and use their budget to other things. You don't need to be able to enter a brothel for you to imagine it's there. Also, I wonder if that's sort of frowned upon publicly in Tevinter, like, sure they have sex slaves but maybe it'd be more hush hush or private. Or only something certain members of the castes could afford? Idk. I feel like being open about that might be frowned upon, like blood magic is. Everyone does it just not publicly. Dorian's WOT entry mentions him going to a brothel in the elven slums. Heck, that portion of the entry is a letter written by Alexius, who was going there himself. In a letter to Halward, Dorian's father, he essentially says, "Don't ask what I was doing there..." I hardly think that is the sort of establishment that the lower classes wouldn't be able to afford. If there are brothels, or just prostitutes and their pimps, there will be those that cater to all classes. There's a reason it's called "the world's oldest profession." It will be a service available to everyone. Quality may vary for your money, but access will still be there. However, I think your first point is probably likely true. We might just be reading too much into Darrah's response.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 3, 2017 18:45:55 GMT
Okay, non-sexual examples of what I'm talking about here; judgments.
You don't have the option to execute Ser Ruth. You can sentence her to die via calling ritual but you can't execute her as she asks. Bioware dictates that however you play the Inquisitor, they are not the kind of person who would agree that Ser Ruth's crimes merit public execution to send a message.
Grand Duches Florianne; if you spare her at the Winter Palace you don't get to execute her later when she's handed over to you for judgment. Bioware dictates that if the Inquisitor is not the kind of person who would stab a woman in the middle of a ballroom with no formal trial and having presented no evidence(evidence which they likely possess but simply haven't presented yet) other than their own accusations - which the rest of the court has no particular reason to believe - then they aren't the kind of person who would sentence her to death at a formal trial.
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Post by Walter Black on Oct 3, 2017 18:46:43 GMT
Aside from the Tevinter whitewashing and general Western hypocrisies over sex in general, there's something about this decision that feels false. The devs want to appear progressive by avoiding brothels and sex workers, but that can just as easily seem smug, patronizing and judgmental. Prostitution usually attracts broken and desperate people, no one can deny that. But to claim the entire trade is an irredeemable horror show is narrow minded and disingenuous. Some view it as a job like any other, and some *gasp!* actually enjoy it, who genuinely see it as a way to help others relieve stress and loneliness and have fun. Indeed, there are sex therapists and surrogates who have used prostitution to aid in individual and couples counseling, and to promote health education and sex positivity. Such people are obviously rare, but they do exist. Instead of exploring the creative possibilities of much needed pro-sex portrayals, Bioware took the clichéd and lazy "sex outside of loving monogamy is bad" trope. Once again, the brothels in the previous games were mainly used for comedy and the prostitution profession primarily portrayed only positively. Which is why I commented on Bioware abandoning them.
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Post by Fredward on Oct 3, 2017 18:53:12 GMT
Nvm I no longer want brothels they're so passe.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 18:53:13 GMT
Once again, the brothels in the previous games were mainly used for comedy and the prostitution profession primarily portrayed only positively. Which is why I commented on Bioware abandoning them. Could you rephrase? Your post, to me, seems to interpret Bioware as being anti-sex when so far, the opposite seems true.
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Post by dutchsghost7 on Oct 3, 2017 18:54:22 GMT
Nvm I no longer want brothels they're so passe. no ur passe ;_;
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 18:56:13 GMT
"Dark" seems to be a very arbitrary label. Because I can't really see how DAI's story is not full of stuff that's not just dark, but bleak. Every organization, no mater how noble, getting corrupted and its intentions twisted and warped, us fighting the faction that was presented in first game as heroes, treading the thin line between truth and lies that ensure that people join our cause, saving the world and the world slowly turning against us and so on... And no - a regular plot for video game doesn't usually gives you a companion to get to know and perhaps even befriend or romance only to reveal that he's on a mission that he may destroy the world. And we don't even know what we'd have to do in order to stop him... or whether we even want to stop him? But then compare that to DAO or DA2. Name something in DAI that is as traumatizing as the Broodmother or Leandra's death. There are a lot of things in DAI that are dark in theory but I feel like most of the times they failed on the execution, so it ends up not being as impactful as it should be. But I think that's probably subjective anyway, so. Well, it does seem mostly subjective. I can't say I was very traumatized by Broodmothers, they seemed rather grotesque, gruesome 'production' of them notwithstanding - if not just plain over-the-top. As for traumatizing events in Inquisition - Future Redcliffe. Having our mind messed by Envy demon. Loss of Haven. Giant, ugly demon in the Fade warping minds of Wardens. Watching Cory face melt till we see his skull only to turn enslave mage Warden to bloody pulp and emerge from it (talk about over the top, lol). You know, stuff like that.
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Post by shechinah on Oct 3, 2017 19:00:32 GMT
Okay, non-sexual examples of what I'm talking about here; judgments. You don't have the option to execute Ser Ruth. You can sentence her to die via calling ritual but you can't execute her as she asks. Bioware dictates that however you play the Inquisitor, they are not the kind of person who would agree that Ser Ruth's crimes merit public execution to send a message. Grand Duches Florianne; if you spare her at the Winter Palace you don't get to execute her later when she's handed over to you for judgment. Bioware dictates that if the Inquisitor is not the kind of person who would stab a woman in the middle of a ballroom with no formal trial and having presented no evidence(evidence which they likely possess but simply haven't presented yet) other than their own accusations - which the rest of the court has no particular reason to believe - then they aren't the kind of person who would sentence her to death at a formal trial. To be fair, that's a case of you having the option of killing those people but you wanting the option to kill them in a specific way. I'm not knocking on you for wanting more options that allow that but I don't see that as Bioware deliberately dictating morality upon the player. To exemplify: in Dragon Age: Origins, the player had the option of killing the Warden's companions but the player did not have the option of killing the Warden's companions until their relationship has lowered significantly enough to trigger a confrontation or the Warden had performed an act that triggered a confrontation. Basically, the Warden can have shown themselves capable of murdering people in a whim, such as seen with the prisoner at Ostagar, yet are unable to do so to their companions.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 19:14:00 GMT
Well, I feel shortchanged after Anders, Alistair, Sebastian and Fenris when I look at Iron Bull and Blackwall. No fun, no drama, no plot relevance, no good looks. Dorian and Cassandra got all that. I'd hardly consider there to be no drama concerning Blackwall. He lies about his identity and I remember there've been threads about the lies and his crimes. The latter especially inspired discussions and strong opinions including from people whose characters romanced him. It's tacked on the back end of the relationship after you spent two acts looking at him scratch one feet with another by the stables in that wool-padded jacket of his. Luckily not his bum, and he'd stopped shoveling manure to talk to you.... Not exactly stuff romantic dreams are made of.
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Post by thats1evildude on Oct 3, 2017 19:16:44 GMT
I'd hardly consider there to be no drama concerning Blackwall. He lies about his identity and I remember there've been threads about the lies and his crimes. The latter especially inspired discussions and strong opinions including from people whose characters romanced him. It's tacked on the back end of the relationship. It's the culmination of his entire character arc! You see him give himself up, you visit him in prison, you judge him in the throne room and you talk to him about it afterwards! What version of Dragon Age: Inquisition did you play? I'm starting to think you were wearing a blindfold through half of it.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Oct 3, 2017 19:18:18 GMT
But then compare that to DAO or DA2. Name something in DAI that is as traumatizing as the Broodmother or Leandra's death. There are a lot of things in DAI that are dark in theory but I feel like most of the times they failed on the execution, so it ends up not being as impactful as it should be. But I think that's probably subjective anyway, so. Well, it does seem mostly subjective. I can't say I was very traumatized by Broodmothers, they seemed rather grotesque, gruesome 'production' of them notwithstanding - if not just plain over-the-top. As for traumatizing events in Inquisition - Future Redcliffe. Having our mind messed by Envy demon. Loss of Haven. Giant, ugly demon in the Fade warping minds of Wardens. Watching Cory face melt till we see his skull only to turn enslave mage Warden to bloody pulp and emerge from it (talk about over the top, lol). You know, stuff like that. I'm not talking about the visuals of the Broodmother but the actual story behind it. You weren't not even a bit troubled? Specially with Hespith describing how Broodmothers are created? Come on now.... In Hushed Whispers and Champions of the Just are probably my two favorite quests in DAI, but they weren't traumatizing. They were dark indeed and I think overall they did a good job with them (and how they incorporated a companion in the story as well) but I wasn't that distressed by it. Leliana's face isn't even explained unless you read the codex, so the first time I've played that quest and I saw Leliana, I was super confused why her face looked old and why her armor was completely clean and perfect when supposedly she was being tortured. Actually, why would she be in armor at all is beyond me. Again, the execution made a lot of these moments lose its impact on me. And I've said this on another thread about Haven. Haven falls but right after that you get a bigger and better place. And the way it's presented it's just super convenient and it removes any impact the destruction of Haven could ever have. It wasn't a loss, not really. Most people see the transition of Haven to Skyhold as a good thing, something they look forward to, and the fact that Haven got destroyed and supposedly people died is completely forgotten and often ignored. While some characters may talk about how it was horrible, I didn't feel a damn thing about those supposed deaths that I didn't see (assuming you save everyone on that quest on Haven). But again, all subjective.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 19:19:21 GMT
It's tacked on the back end of the relationship. It's the culmination of his entire character arc! You see him give himself up, you visit him in prison, you judge him in the throne room and you talk to him about it afterwards! You still have to spend two acts watching him scratch one foot with another in front of the stables and tell you insipidly boring stories how he used to be young and hot knight at tournaments years and years ago... before he took up to hanging around the stables with a big beard and wearing that old wool-padded jacket. Again, not the stuff the dreams are made of.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 3, 2017 19:22:46 GMT
Well, it does seem mostly subjective. I can't say I was very traumatized by Broodmothers, they seemed rather grotesque, gruesome 'production' of them notwithstanding - if not just plain over-the-top. As for traumatizing events in Inquisition - Future Redcliffe. Having our mind messed by Envy demon. Loss of Haven. Giant, ugly demon in the Fade warping minds of Wardens. Watching Cory face melt till we see his skull only to turn enslave mage Warden to bloody pulp and emerge from it (talk about over the top, lol). You know, stuff like that. I'm not talking about the visuals of the Broodmother but the actual story behind it. You weren't not even a bit troubled? Specially with Hespith describing how Broodmothers are created? Come on now.... In Hushed Whispers and Champions of the Just are probably my two favorite quests in DAI, but they weren't traumatizing. They were dark indeed and I think overall they did a good job with them (and how they incorporated a companion in the story as well) but I wasn't that distressed by it. Leliana's face isn't even explained unless you read the codex, so the first time I've played that quest and I saw Leliana, I was super confused why her face looked old and why her armor was completely clean and perfect when supposedly she was being tortured. Actually, why would she be in armor at all is beyond me. Again, the execution made a lot of these moments lose its impact on me. And I've said this on another thread about Haven. Haven falls but right after that you get a bigger and better place. And the way it's presented it's just super convenient and it removes any impact the destruction of Haven could ever have. It wasn't a loss, not really. Most people see the transition of Haven to Skyhold as a good thing, something they look forward to, and the fact that Haven got destroyed and supposedly people died is completely forgotten and often ignored. While some characters may talk about how it was horrible, I didn't feel a damn thing about those supposed deaths that I didn't see (assuming you save everyone on that quest on Haven). But again, all subjective. What about the religious themes of Inquistion? About faith and preserving it in the times of need or the themes about identity. Those themes ranged from uplifting to dark to me.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 3, 2017 19:24:47 GMT
It's tacked on the back end of the relationship. What version of Dragon Age: Inquisition did you play? I'm starting to think you were wearing a blindfold through half of it. Game of the Year edition with Trespasser, Descent and Jaws of Hakkon included. And I found the story and the characters for the most part boring and unappealing to me, particularly the romantic interests for female PCs. I really liked Alistair, Nathaniel, Anders and Sebastian in the previous games, and Dorian - in DA3. I loved the story in both DAO and DA2. DA3 is just not my game & male characters that would romance a female PC & their stories or how they delivered did not appeal to me. I tried very diligently to get to like DA3, and to fall in love with one of the chars allocated for the female PC (I started a female PC twice, and tried to start a relationship with Solas, Blackwall and Cullen, and almost got to the end of the game with Cullen's romance still active), but I did not. In the end I just told Dorian that I would like to continue to flirt with him and did. And, yes, yes, I did go to Orlais to see Blackwall volunteering to be executed, did the Wartable mission to press Orlais into freeing him, and judged him back in the keep. The said sequence failed to tag on my heartstrings and get me emotionally involved/wanting to romance the guy & I managed to be emotionally involved with Altair and Barik, and Zu, Bao, Zenith and Kivan way before that who don't have romantic content, lol. Frankly, I don't think I am the only person who finds Blackwall underwhelming and boring, but even if I were... that's how it is. So, no, it was not my eyes that were closed, it was my heart that never skipped a bit the way it does in most games, the sensation that I do enjoy. That's why Flirts with a bunch of characters in and around the game like SWTOR, in brothels and with interesting characters, would be great for me. It doesn't take me much to start building head canon if the character captures my imagination, but if he does not, no amount of nekkid cutscenes gonna do anything.
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Post by Nightscrawl on Oct 3, 2017 19:36:55 GMT
I'm not talking about the visuals of the Broodmother but the actual story behind it. You weren't not even a bit troubled? Specially with Hespith describing how Broodmothers are created? Come on now.... I know this wasn't to me, but while I did find the facts of the broodmothers' creation disturbing, the whole reveal with Hespith chanting that poem just never had that big an effect on me. To me, that scene was overdone and melodramatic, verging on campy horror movie territory. It would have felt more real and traumatic, to me, had we discovered her cowering in a corner, tried to talk to her, and eventually got out a jumbled explanation of what went on. I've seen remarks from players who count Hespith's poem as one of the scariest moments in their gaming history that they still remember to this day. But it's never struck me that way, even as I think the reality of the situation is horrific. In terms of interaction with a person who was similarly afflicted by the darkspawn taint, I found more of an emotional connection with Ruck than with Hespith. In Hushed Whispers and Champions of the Just are probably my two favorite quests in DAI, but they weren't traumatizing. They were dark indeed and I think overall they did a good job with them (and how they incorporated a companion in the story as well) but I wasn't that distressed by it. This is one of those moments where roleplay helps shape my view of the game. My Inquisitor is greatly disturbed by the events in the future time, and even moreso by the events in the Fade at Adamant (the elements that impact his faith and also personally from Nightmare). Because of that roleplay, I'm able to look on those things and think them distressing and even traumatic.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 19:49:21 GMT
Well, it does seem mostly subjective. I can't say I was very traumatized by Broodmothers, they seemed rather grotesque, gruesome 'production' of them notwithstanding - if not just plain over-the-top. As for traumatizing events in Inquisition - Future Redcliffe. Having our mind messed by Envy demon. Loss of Haven. Giant, ugly demon in the Fade warping minds of Wardens. Watching Cory face melt till we see his skull only to turn enslave mage Warden to bloody pulp and emerge from it (talk about over the top, lol). You know, stuff like that. I'm not talking about the visuals of the Broodmother but the actual story behind it. You weren't not even a bit troubled? Specially with Hespith describing how Broodmothers are created? Come on now.... I wasn't talking just about visuals. And I'm not saying that I'm not 'a bit troubled', but in does indeed strikes me as over-the-top, if not predictable. Like... evil monsters doing evil stuff... What else is new? In fact it's almost copied form Tolkien and orc production, with additional stuff included seemingly for shock factor rather than anything else. I think out of whole DAO I was most upset over the fate of the Casteless, because it was not a product of hive-minded monsters, but caste system and blind adherence to tradition. I think this is where real trauma lies. And Blight itself will likely become more 'traumatic' the more we learn about what it is, other than 'evil power' that warps anything that touches it. What kind of tragedies led to either its release or creation? Why does Flemeth says that men's heart hold shadows darker than any blighted creature? This isn't just about Future Redliffe, but just how close the world was to turning to it and in fact is risking of turning to it at a moment we stumble. Not only that, it would seem that all of it is for naught - without the Anchor, all Cory can do is destroy the world further till it's a bleak desert overgrown with red lyrium and demons feeding on the remains and warping the world further. At a time we first lost Haven we didn't know we're going tu stumble on Skyhold, and it's not like it's 'bigger and better' from the start. We have to work to restore it. And it isn't just about the loss of Heaven it's like... okay - we just dealt with the Breach, and now we have to deal with darkspawn magister and his pet Archdemon... like what? This isn't just about what Inquisition lost at Haven and this isn't just another crisis for Thedas. The Fifth Blight was awful, but it was the Fifth one and people found how to roughly deal with those - now we just keep being assaulted by new problems and they only give way to even more complicated new problems. Thedas being a place where we have this never-ending cycle of crisis, where people can hardly go a decade without the world going to sh*t again is possibly the darkest and bleakest aspect of the whole thing.
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Post by pinkjellybeans on Oct 3, 2017 20:17:24 GMT
All I can say is, there are two different types of players, I guess. The ones who can roleplay in their minds and come up with likely scenarios to what we don't see in the game and the ones who need exposure to feel immersed, therefore feel the impact of certain moments. It's not that I can't use my imagination or put myself on my character's shoes and imagine what it would be like if I was in that situation, but for me as a player, what I see and witness is a key aspect in making me feel invested in something. I really like the quest In Hushed Whispers but I don't find it to be dark to the point of being super distressing. We only experience that dark future for a while in a closed castle. Leliana's situation was more funny to me than anything because of what I mentioned above (confusion as to why her face looks like that without any explanation unless you read the codex, the fact that she's in full shiny armor while being tortured for a year and then suddenly she is fine and strong enough to beat a horde of demons and Venatori with a freaking bow - talk about over the top). What about the religious themes of Inquistion? About faith and preserving it in the times of need or the themes about identity. Those themes ranged from uplifting to dark to me. Well, I'm not a religious person myself so maybe that's why that didn't really speak to me.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 3, 2017 20:23:03 GMT
I personally am not concerned about being dark rather than tackling mature themes. Darkness can become cartoony if used excessively.
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Post by tacsear on Oct 3, 2017 20:57:07 GMT
This piece of news has definitely made me lose my enthusiasm for DA4. It's not about brothels though. This really shows Bioware lost their edge. They could've erased the controversy regarding them being under SJW influence by putting a few sex slaves out there, but the fact that they don't do it proves the point.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 20:59:12 GMT
I personally am not concerned about being dark rather than tackling mature themes. Darkness can become cartoony if used excessively. Which is why I've found DAO more on grotesque side than dark per se. Like, some of the stuff was just over the top for me.
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Twitter Guru
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 3, 2017 21:09:13 GMT
This piece of news has definitely made me lose my enthusiasm for DA4. It's not about brothels though. This really shows Bioware lost their edge. They could've erased the controversy regarding them being under SJW influence by putting a few sex slaves out there, but the fact that they don't do it proves the point. How did we travel from potential lack of brothels to putting sex slaves in the game??? And how do you know what they will or won't do in DA4? Do you have access to Bioware and know what's going to be in the game? And seriously, this whole 'SJWs! SJWs everywhere!' needs to die in a fire. It's seriously getting out of hand when supposed solution to 'erasing controversy with being under SJW influence' means they HAVE TO put sex slaves in for no reason than to... do what exactly? Pander to edgelords? Holy cow on a stick.
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FireAndBlood
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
Prime Posts: 454
Prime Likes: 350
Posts: 584 Likes: 1,664
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Nov 24, 2024 20:07:30 GMT
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FireAndBlood
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fireandblood
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by FireAndBlood on Oct 3, 2017 21:12:36 GMT
Of all the things I want to see in Tevinter,a brothel isn't even on the damn list.
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