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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2017 6:13:01 GMT
Huh? If I'm going to be driving the Nomad a bunch, it damn well better be a good driving experience. If you thought the Mako sucked in ME1, you could just blow off the UNC worlds, which I'd recommend on the merits anyway. But f the Nomad sucked it would blow up the entire ME:A experience.
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Post by river82 on Oct 21, 2017 6:17:30 GMT
Huh? If I'm going to be driving the Nomad a bunch, it damn well better be a good driving experience. If you thought the Mako sucked in ME1, you could just blow off the UNC worlds, which I'd recommend on the merits anyway. But f the Nomad sucked it would blow up the entire ME:A experience. There's a difference between "good" and "great simulated arcadey racing". Why don't you just bring in the Gran Turismo team to make sure damage of the vehicle is reflected accurately in accordance to real world physics? Despite having early builds commented on by the Need for Speed team, I didn't have any more fun driving the Nomad in Andromeda than I did driving the Mako in ME1
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 21, 2017 6:31:02 GMT
EA benefits from having all of their studios move to Frostbite, it benefits long term from moving to Frostbite, it benefits from having a story oriented studio like Bioware under their umbrella, but Bioware doesn't benefit from having to develop RPGs on an engine unsuited for RPGs. From what I know no modern engine is built under specific type of game - they are built to be flexible. And yes, now that BW and others have developed tools and modules it is indeed suitable to build RPGs and will become even more suitable with time. The Nomad is way more core to the experience of game like MEA than brothels in DA ever were, lol. We spend a lot of time in the damn thing, exploring and getting to places, even listening to banter - it makes the experience more enjoyable when the ride is fun and the car doesn't drive like a three-wheeled horse carriage. Besides - I gave Nomad as an example, because I know the devs mentioned NfS team helping them working out the kinks for the ride, but we have no idea in what other areas other devs from other studios have helped them with their games. To my knowledge there are no 'highly specialized' engines on the market tailored specifically for someone's needs, unless a studio builds it for themselves - something you yourself said the Western gamedevs have advantage over Japanese for NOT doing. According to gamedevs like those sharing insider knowledge on Extra Credits channel, the power of modern engines lies not in their specialization, but on exact opposite: their flexibility. Of course, each engine has its quirks and some are more powerful than others, but none is designed to be tailored to someone's needs... well, unless those needs are 'to create a game'. And yes - managing 8 different engines over a host of different studios does indeed seems to be problematic. Bioware had experience with it themselves, looked at the problems brought with using a host of different engines in their own studio, then at Frostbite... and chose Frostbite. And honestly, regardless of BW's choices, if I happened to own EA then picking and sticking to one engine I owned and could shape however I liked without worrying for external licenses and agreements, would be my very first choice, worth all the years of implementing its usage across all my studios and developing the tools. With all the shortcomings EA can be easily accused of, I consider this to be a very sensible move.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2017 16:20:04 GMT
And yes - managing 8 different engines over a host of different studios does indeed seems to be problematic. Bioware had experience with it themselves, looked at the problems brought with using a host of different engines in their own studio, then at Frostbite... and chose Frostbite. I'm not convinced that Bio actually had a choice there. I once worked for a sort of publishing equivalent of EA -- a whole bunch of different business units cobbled together. My unit had traditionally outsourced composition and manufacturing, but we were eventually forced to send this work to other units of the conglomerate which had the capabilities in-house. Manufacturing was good, but the in-house composition was bad. More expensive for us, and lower quality. But since that money stayed within the corporation instead of going outside the corporation, using the worse system was the rational move for corporate, and my unit just had to suck it up. (In fairness, the in-house system was technically good. It was the operators who were less than optimal; when we had access to the system ourselves the results were good. My main takeaway from the experience is that average intelligence was substantially higher in the New York office than in the Midwestern ones, which I feel kind of bad about.)
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2017 16:42:37 GMT
Huh? If I'm going to be driving the Nomad a bunch, it damn well better be a good driving experience. If you thought the Mako sucked in ME1, you could just blow off the UNC worlds, which I'd recommend on the merits anyway. But f the Nomad sucked it would blow up the entire ME:A experience. There's a difference between "good" and "great simulated arcadey racing". Why don't you just bring in the Gran Turismo team to make sure damage of the vehicle is reflected accurately in accordance to real world physics? Despite having early builds commented on by the Need for Speed team, I didn't have any more fun driving the Nomad in Andromeda than I did driving the Mako in ME1 I thought the Mako was awful and the Nomad was pretty good. (Didn't help that the ME1 vehicle combat system was a crashing bore.) I suppose if you didn't get any added value from the work done on the Nomad, you wouldn't see the point of the work.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 21, 2017 16:47:49 GMT
And yes - managing 8 different engines over a host of different studios does indeed seems to be problematic. Bioware had experience with it themselves, looked at the problems brought with using a host of different engines in their own studio, then at Frostbite... and chose Frostbite. I'm not convinced that Bio actually had a choice there. I once worked for a sort of publishing equivalent of EA -- a whole bunch of different business units cobbled together. My unit had traditionally outsourced composition and manufacturing, but we were eventually forced to send this work to other units of the conglomerate which had the capabilities in-house. Manufacturing was good, but the in-house composition was bad. More expensive for us, and lower quality. But since that money stayed within the corporation instead of going outside the corporation, using the worse system was the rational move for corporate, and my unit just had to suck it up. (In fairness, the in-house system was technically good. It was the operators who were less than optimal; when we had access to the system ourselves the results were good. My main takeaway from the experience is that average intelligence was substantially higher in the New York office than in the Midwestern ones, which I feel kind of bad about.) Judging from what I heard from interviews with Aaryn Flynn and Mike Laidlaw they were never really that happy with their choice of past engines to begin with. Aaryn was especially honest (I gotta find that interview and link it) when he said that - finally - their games can actually look how they want them to look, as before they were unable to achieve effects they wanted. Bioware stories excel on narrative and world-building level, but I don't think that it can be claimed that their games were pushing boundaries in terms of visual presentation or gameplay, and a lot of it was because of engine limitations and age, if I recall. DAO especially looked dated - a 2009 game that couldn't compete with 2006 TES Oblivion. So whether EA would ultimately enforce Frostbite on Bioware anyhow, I did read interviews and excerpts of a book with Darrah and Laidlaw (and some of his tweets) where they state that they were actually given a chance to decide if they want to switch and pioneer the engine for RPGs - which is actually the reason they've decided to cancel expansion for DA2 and begin work on DAI earlier.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 21, 2017 16:49:32 GMT
There's a difference between "good" and "great simulated arcadey racing". Why don't you just bring in the Gran Turismo team to make sure damage of the vehicle is reflected accurately in accordance to real world physics? Despite having early builds commented on by the Need for Speed team, I didn't have any more fun driving the Nomad in Andromeda than I did driving the Mako in ME1 I thought the Mako was awful and the Nomad was pretty good. (Didn't help that the ME1 vehicle combat system was a crashing bore.) I suppose if you didn't get any added value from the work done on the Nomad, you wouldn't see the point of the work. Which is ironic given time some spent on arguing how even minute details put into far less significant piece of content (like brothels) can enrich the world and game.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2017 17:09:27 GMT
Judging from what I heard from interviews with Aaryn Flynn and Mike Laidlaw they were never really that happy with their choice of past engines to begin with. Aaryn was especially honest (I gotta find that interview and link it) when he said that - finally - their games can actually look how they want them to look, as before they were unable to achieve effects they wanted. Bioware stories excel on narrative and world-building level, but I don't think that it can be claimed that their games were pushing boundaries in terms of visual presentation or gameplay, and a lot of it was because of engine limitations and age, if I recall. DAO especially looked dated - a 2009 game that couldn't compete with 2006 TES Oblivion. Makes sense. DA:O not only didn't look all that great on release, it had serious technical problems. (Even at the recommended level of RAM, a big battle can cause event threading to fail; a character will play the health poultice animation but will fail to actually use the poultice, for instance.)
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Post by river82 on Oct 21, 2017 20:21:43 GMT
I thought the Mako was awful and the Nomad was pretty good. (Didn't help that the ME1 vehicle combat system was a crashing bore.) I suppose if you didn't get any added value from the work done on the Nomad, you wouldn't see the point of the work. Which is ironic given time some spent on arguing how even minute details put into far less significant piece of content (like brothels) can enrich the world and game. Brothels have to do with worldbuilding and story*, the Nomad is merely a tool to funnel people from fetch quest 83 to fetch quest 84. Worldbuilding and story are more important (in my biased opinion.) The Nomad is important in that you spend a god awful amount of time in the thing, but if they didn't have the dodgy idea in the first place of building large worlds populated with "find 9 ancient artifact" quests it wouldn't be needed. It adds little to the game of Mass Effect, it's important to be functional but it doesn't have to excel. And speaking of not excelling, a quick glance around the internet will reveal that despite the Need for Speed team working on the Nomad, it still annoyed a large number of people. Me included. The Nomad experience shitted me up the wall as much as the Mako experience did, which leads to a fascinating point. Apparently the core concept of Andromeda was tapping into the untold potential of ME1, which basically means they took one of the aspects that royally irritated the bejeezus out of almost everyone in ME1 and they thought "lets make that aspect 100 times bigger". Everybody cheered when the Mako didn't make an appearance in ME2 (and sighed when we got planetary scanning) but hey I'm sure everyone'll love the Nomad, right? Right? Regarding engines, we'll just have to see how their next RPG plays. If they get the engine working gangbusters then I'll gladly eat my words. *It of course depends on how they're implemented.
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Post by river82 on Oct 21, 2017 20:46:59 GMT
PS: Someone should rename this topic the "let's talk about anything" thread xD
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2017 21:37:07 GMT
Brothels have to do with worldbuilding and story*, the Nomad is merely a tool to funnel people from fetch quest 83 to fetch quest 84. Worldbuilding and story are more important (in my biased opinion.) The Nomad is important in that you spend a god awful amount of time in the thing, but if they didn't have the dodgy idea in the first place of building large worlds populated with "find 9 ancient artifact" quests it wouldn't be needed. It adds little to the game of Mass Effect, it's important to be functional but it doesn't have to excel. And speaking of not excelling, a quick glance around the internet will reveal that despite the Need for Speed team working on the Nomad, it still annoyed a large number of people. Me included. The Nomad experience shitted me up the wall as much as the Mako experience did, which leads to a fascinating point. Apparently the core concept of Andromeda was tapping into the untold potential of ME1, which basically means they took one of the aspects that royally irritated the bejeezus out of almost everyone in ME1 and they thought "lets make that aspect 100 times bigger". Everybody cheered when the Mako didn't make an appearance in ME2 (and sighed when we got planetary scanning) but hey I'm sure everyone'll love the Nomad, right? Right? This argument doesn't really work -- unless your intent was to just slip away from the topic of whether cross-studio expertise can be useful because you realize that it's a loser. (I appreciate a good dodge, but you can't seriously think that midnight tea would let you get away with that.) I'm sympathetic to the idea that a design vision based on ME1 wasn't a good idea -- as I've said before, why base a successor game on the worst game in the trilogy? -- but the production process for parts of the game that you don't want in the first place can't be important to you personally. And once the designers are going with a Nomad, or whatever, it needs to work well. Unless your argument is that the NfS guys didn't and couldn't improve the Nomad for anyone, you aren't saying anything useful.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 21, 2017 22:17:35 GMT
I always looked at Orzammar dwarves as being closest thing Dragon Age has to dark elves, myself. Really? Orzammar dwarves are very... dwarfy for me. Qunari on the other hand? Gray skin that they like to expose, oftentimes paired with white flowy hair, pointy ears, and more on bellicose side. Looks don't matter. It's all about the politics, and Orzammar dwarves are all about the literal backstabbing, high stakes murderous squabbling that goes on between rival houses vying for power in an underground city.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 21, 2017 22:18:20 GMT
Which is ironic given time some spent on arguing how even minute details put into far less significant piece of content (like brothels) can enrich the world and game. Brothels have to do with worldbuilding and story*, the Nomad is merely a tool to funnel people from fetch quest 83 to fetch quest 84. Worldbuilding and story are more important (in my biased opinion.) The Nomad is important in that you spend a god awful amount of time in the thing, but if they didn't have the dodgy idea in the first place of building large worlds populated with "find 9 ancient artifact" quests it wouldn't be needed. It adds little to the game of Mass Effect, it's important to be functional but it doesn't have to excel. And speaking of not excelling, a quick glance around the internet will reveal that despite the Need for Speed team working on the Nomad, it still annoyed a large number of people. Me included. The Nomad experience shitted me up the wall as much as the Mako experience did, which leads to a fascinating point. Apparently the core concept of Andromeda was tapping into the untold potential of ME1, which basically means they took one of the aspects that royally irritated the bejeezus out of almost everyone in ME1 and they thought "lets make that aspect 100 times bigger". Everybody cheered when the Mako didn't make an appearance in ME2 (and sighed when we got planetary scanning) but hey I'm sure everyone'll love the Nomad, right? Right? Regarding engines, we'll just have to see how their next RPG plays. If they get the engine working gangbusters then I'll gladly eat my words. *It of course depends on how they're implemented. The Nomad has as much to do with the story as brothels do, and it's as much a gameplay tool as it's a worldbuilding tool. We're pioneers and explorers of worlds that are largely uninhabited or, as we found out, decimated by a catastrophe - giving us vast spaces which we scour for resources and slowly make them viable as we travel in a hardy ride acts as an apt illustration of the theme they were going for, regardless of what people think of its implementation. The fact that Nomad leads to what you deem as dozens of fetch quests is irrelevant - after all, the brothel can be a hub that will make us run fetchquesty errands too, which is something of a separate issue from it telling us something about the story or its themes from its design alone. Hence Nomad is as important as any story element (especially given the amount of time we can spend in it) - and if it's annoyed you, imagine how annoying it would be without NfS team's help. After all, we do have a direct comparison of implementation of similar mode of transport in earlier Mass Effect and, from what I've seen, consensus seems to be largely on the side that it was indeed way worse. But like I said - it was just an example of something they could get help for from a different studio that I know they shared with us. We don't know what other things may have been helped with, or how other teams can help Dragon Age or Anthem team or whatever else there is or will be. Point is that with EA working on a single engine now, they can and here's hoping that it allows them to build better or more robust games.
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Post by midnight tea on Oct 21, 2017 22:23:54 GMT
Really? Orzammar dwarves are very... dwarfy for me. Qunari on the other hand? Gray skin that they like to expose, oftentimes paired with white flowy hair, pointy ears, and more on bellicose side. Looks don't matter. It's all about the politics, and Orzammar dwarves are all about the literal backstabbing, high stakes murderous squabbling that goes on between rival houses vying for power in an underground city. So basically like Orlais or Tevinter? And I'm not sure if Orzammar is so much about backstabbing, but its blind adherence to tradition. The person who does the most backstabbing after all happens to also have the most revolutionary ideas (compared to competition).
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 21, 2017 22:27:46 GMT
Orlais & Tevinter both have deadly, decadent courts - as does Nevarra from the way Cassandra tells it. But none of them have felt as drow-like to me as playing through the dwarf noble origin.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 21, 2017 22:40:40 GMT
As for qunari, they're a real hodgepodge of a lot of things. Elements from a lot of different fantasy tropes put together to make a really unique creation. I can see some dark elf elements in there with the matriarchy, but in the qun that is separate from the priest-hood. Their look always reminded me more of Blizzard's draenei without the hooves than it did of dark elves. There are definitely some orc tropes there as well; Bioware kind of divided up the orc tropes between qunari & darkspawn, though they did a lot of playing with & twisting of the tropes in both cases. And of course this is mixed with the real world parallels of the Qun representing the nation of Islam in it's role as rival, challenger, and opposition to European Christianity/Theodosian Andrastism.
Point being that the qunari are too complex to apply simple labels to as "bulky drow" or "heroic orcs".
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Post by Gwydden on Oct 21, 2017 23:03:43 GMT
If I may, formerfiend : if we could get flings back, instead of brothels, would you be satisfied? Flings were a thing back in DA:O, though I don't remember them having much of a presence in any other Bioware game. I would much rather they returned, perhaps even with more depth and reactivity. I don't care to have flings all that much either, to be honest, but I would consider it a good opportunity to roleplay, one way or the other. It's certainly far more Conan-like than going to a brothel. In the stories I've read, the man never once pays for sex. The question also goes to everyone else who's been arguing for a brothel, if you want to answer it.
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Post by formerfiend on Oct 21, 2017 23:12:59 GMT
If I may, formerfiend : if we could get flings back, instead of brothels, would you be satisfied? Flings were a thing back in DA:O, though I don't remember them having much of a presence in any other Bioware game. I would much rather they returned, perhaps even with more depth and reactivity. I don't care to have flings all that much either, to be honest, but I would consider it a good opportunity to roleplay, one way or the other. It's certainly far more Conan-like than going to a brothel. In the stories I've read, the man never once pays for sex. The question also goes to everyone else who's been arguing for a brothel, if you want to answer it. Given that either/or I'd probably take the flings. Make them something of a middle ground between what Origins presented and Andromeda had.
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 1, 2017 9:01:59 GMT
My whole point is that I don't see the big deal. I'm not arguing that brothels and sex inherently make games worse. They're just not something I think needs to be a high priority. And was never high priority in DA games, or any BW game for that matter, in the first place. Nobody plays Bioware games for their brothels. How would you know?
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Post by cloud9 on Nov 1, 2017 9:05:22 GMT
I still disagree on this point. I dont think so many people would be asking for them to be included if they added nothing. Lol, can you really not think of any other reason for why people would want prostitutes in a game? Why not? I want to make money by giving women pleasure. It's a lifetime dream come true.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Nov 1, 2017 9:20:33 GMT
Lol, can you really not think of any other reason for why people would want prostitutes in a game? Why not? I want to make money by giving women pleasure. It's a lifetime dream come true. This reply was worth the two week wait.
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Post by thats1evildude on Nov 1, 2017 17:19:54 GMT
Lol, can you really not think of any other reason for why people would want prostitutes in a game? Why not? I want to make money by giving women pleasure. It's a lifetime dream come true. I don’t think you have a good grasp of the mechanics of prostitution. You see, you pay them money for pleasuring you, not the other way around.
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 1, 2017 17:50:22 GMT
It's a game, the NPCs don't care. There's no need to take stuff away from the game, but add to it. Don't like whoring in games? Then don't fucking do it. It's so simple.
But I suppose it's Bioware's way of "Disneying" what once was a gritty and immersive franchise for this new generation of offended by anything Tumblr style fans, shame DAI, shame.
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Post by gervaise21 on Nov 1, 2017 17:54:54 GMT
Not in DA2. There was a male prostitute (Jehann?) who was offering his services and seemed to enjoy the work. Isabella also paid a subscription to the brothel so she could drop by whenever she liked. Since she was bisexual, I assume she was using both men and women.
So maybe Cloud9 wants the opportunity to actual work in a brothel as a way of making money.
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Post by thats1evildude on Nov 1, 2017 18:43:35 GMT
Not in DA2. There was a male prostitute (Jehann?) who was offering his services and seemed to enjoy the work. Isabella also paid a subscription to the brothel so she could drop by whenever she liked. Since she was bisexual, I assume she was using both men and women. Yes, yes, I get that. But cloud9's statement implied that the prostitutes would pay him.
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