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Post by Zatche on Nov 3, 2017 0:36:45 GMT
Cassandra is a romantic there can be sweet moments in a dark fantasy. Wich would be a totally valid point if Inquisition darkest moments weren't pretty much the game over screen. No really. Other then the here lies the abyss questline, in hushed whispers (that culminates like a jolly disney movie) and Leliana personal quest, if you go through the hardened path anyway, this game has no elements of a dark fantasy. Other than what you mentioned. Other than servants getting slaughtered in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts (and Vivienne's total dispassion towards it). Other than templars being murdered or force fed Red Lyrium and turned into abominations in Champions of the Just. Other than the slaves in Hissing Wastes and forced laborers in Emprise Du Lion.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 3, 2017 0:46:30 GMT
Wich would be a totally valid point if Inquisition darkest moments weren't pretty much the game over screen. No really. Other then the here lies the abyss questline, in hushed whispers (that culminates like a jolly disney movie) and Leliana personal quest, if you go through the hardened path anyway, this game has no elements of a dark fantasy. Other than what you mentioned. Other than servants getting slaughtered in Wicked Eyes and Wicked Hearts (and Vivienne's total dispassion towards it). Other than templars being murdered or force fed Red Lyrium and turned into abominations in Champions of the Just. Other than the slaves in Hissing Wastes and forced laborers in Emprise Du Lion. It's a dopey argument anyway. Let's posit that jaison1986 was actually right. It still doesn't follow that Cassandra's romance track shouldn't involve flowers. A few flowers in a plot line that won't even come up in more than a fraction of playthroughs can't change the overall tone of the game. We shouldn't take arguments seriously when their premises are silly. It's not like Andrew Lucas seriously believed what he was saying when he brought this up.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 3, 2017 1:04:16 GMT
Cassandra is a romantic there can be sweet moments in a dark fantasy. Wich would be a totally valid point if Inquisition darkest moments weren't pretty much the game over screen. No really. Other then the here lies the abyss questline, in hushed whispers (that culminates like a jolly disney movie) and Leliana personal quest, if you go through the hardened path anyway, this game has no elements of a dark fantasy. The whole world falling apart and continuing to fall apart even with all we accompished just ain't dark enough, huh?
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Post by jaison1986 on Nov 3, 2017 1:32:27 GMT
Wich would be a totally valid point if Inquisition darkest moments weren't pretty much the game over screen. No really. Other then the here lies the abyss questline, in hushed whispers (that culminates like a jolly disney movie) and Leliana personal quest, if you go through the hardened path anyway, this game has no elements of a dark fantasy. The whole world falling apart and continuing to fall apart even with all we accompished just ain't dark enough, huh? Too bad we never see it. Too busy watching NPCs standing idle around every map. Unlike say, the witcher, were we witness hanged people, burned down villages, crying peseants mourning the loss of everything, etc.
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Post by midnight tea on Nov 3, 2017 1:38:13 GMT
The whole world falling apart and continuing to fall apart even with all we accompished just ain't dark enough, huh? Too bad we never see it. Too busy watching NPCs standing idle around every map. Unlike say, the witcher, were we witness hanged people, burned down villages, crying peseants mourning the loss of everything, etc. Yes, the NPCs were definitely standing idly as demons, red templars or bears or rogue mages/templars burned and fought and attacked, kidnapped peasants to be shipped to Red Lyrium mine to conduct experiments on or be food for blighted lyrium or toys for demons or slaves we saved from Venatori...
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Post by melbella on Nov 3, 2017 2:02:06 GMT
Actually, they do kind of just sit there. After you tell the slaves in Hissing Wastes that they're free, what do they do? Continue to just sit there. You only get a follow up about them later via WT. We never get to SEE them experience freedom, only read about it. And have you been at a camp during a bear (or any other various thing) attack? Nobody from the camp does a damn thing to help, ever. They just wander around as if nothing is going on and the Inquisitor isn't getting mauled but 2 feet away. This is the concern many have with DA4: that we'll only hear/read about how bad and evil Tevinter is but never actually SEE it in game.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 3, 2017 2:26:09 GMT
So when you look at the glide path projectory, it is obvious that the tone has shifted to the more ligther side in recent Bioware games. Not to say that DAI and even MEA didn't have it's depressing and dark moments cause they both did and both Ryder and the IQ had opportunities to cross the line, but when you compare their limited opportunities to skirt/cross the line and compare that to the opportunities that Shepard, Warden, Spirt Monk, Revan, and Hawke all had, it is clearly obvious that Ryder/IQ are more tame. There's an obvious problem with an argument that relies on only the two most recent data points. In 2012 someone could have claimed -- people did claim -- that Bio was obviously going full-on into grimdark, based on DA2 and ME3. How would this argument be different from the one you're proposing? Or is "argument" the wrong concept? Are you just expressing fear? Well maybe I worded it wrong but clearly since DAI and with MEA, there seems to have been a slow shift in the tone of their games. Again, compare how ruthless Shepard, Hawke, Spirit Monk, and Warden are compared to the IQ and Ryder. With Anthem and DA4 we will clearly see if this continues.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 3, 2017 2:30:28 GMT
It's a complicated issue, but a stupid one. Look how DA started and how it is now, a gritty, dark, medieval, somewhat grounded to its setting and GoT inspired turned into an obsessed weird sex fest where you have to pick flowers in order to pursue a romance. Cringe, I know. DA wasn't that dark in the first place. And the sort of darkness that a hypothetical brothel might provide in some other game was never present; Bio brothels have always been places of relative sweetness and light. And that picking flowers line is just silly. Flowers show up in Cassandra's romance track, sure. In Josephine's you have to fight a duel. In the Iron Bull's you have to kill a dragon. Perhaps in the larger scheme of things compared to other games (Like The Witcher series) yes, DA was never all that dark. However when you take DAI and then compare it to DA2 and DAO, it is clear that DA2 and DAO were bold in areas that DAI stayes clear of. Use MEA as an example as well. MEA is largely and obviously lighter in tone than the rest of the MET; in the MET a companion can die whereas that doesnt happen in MEA. Everyone lives and is all jolly.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 3, 2017 2:34:38 GMT
Blackwall's and Iron Bull's personal quests were pretty dark. If you go through the choice BW emotionally manipulates you into NOT taking. Sure. I'll concede with Blackwall. Though the darkest part about his quest is a tale you never witness, wich kind of takes away from the "bleakness" of the situation. Thats the thing with Bioware games, they give you good/bad choices but always fixes it in a way that the paragon choice generally yields the best outcome and renegade yields the worse outcome. Compare this to Witcher where the good choice can have a bad outcome, the bad choice can have a good outcome, or sometimes you choose between to bad choices that both leads to bad outcomes.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 3, 2017 2:37:35 GMT
DA wasn't that dark in the first place. And the sort of darkness that a hypothetical brothel might provide in some other game was never present; Bio brothels have always been places of relative sweetness and light. And that picking flowers line is just silly. Flowers show up in Cassandra's romance track, sure. In Josephine's you have to fight a duel. In the Iron Bull's you have to kill a dragon. Perhaps in the larger scheme of things compared to other games (Like The Witcher series) yes, DA was never all that dark. However when you take DAI and then compare it to DA2 and DAO, it is clear that DA2 and DAO were bold in areas that DAI stayes clear of. Use MEA as an example as well. MEA is largely and obviously lighter in tone than the rest of the MET; in the MET a companion can die whereas that doesnt happen in MEA. Everyone lives and is all jolly. Considering that they planned on having multiple games and how big a headache squad/crew fates gave them in the past, it could be the reason that nobody could die in MEA was not so much a lighter tone but more just for story(like all characters will have a part to play in sequels) and/or programming reasons.
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Post by heathenoxman on Nov 3, 2017 2:39:32 GMT
DA wasn't that dark in the first place. And the sort of darkness that a hypothetical brothel might provide in some other game was never present; Bio brothels have always been places of relative sweetness and light. And that picking flowers line is just silly. Flowers show up in Cassandra's romance track, sure. In Josephine's you have to fight a duel. In the Iron Bull's you have to kill a dragon. Perhaps in the larger scheme of things compared to other games (Like The Witcher series) yes, DA was never all that dark. However when you take DAI and then compare it to DA2 and DAO, it is clear that DA2 and DAO were bold in areas that DAI stayes clear of. Use MEA as an example as well. MEA is largely and obviously lighter in tone than the rest of the MET; in the MET a companion can die whereas that doesnt happen in MEA. Everyone lives and is all jolly. Anyone who thinks DAO is "dark" needs to read more fantasy/sci-fi.
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Post by smilesja on Nov 3, 2017 2:43:58 GMT
Perhaps in the larger scheme of things compared to other games (Like The Witcher series) yes, DA was never all that dark. However when you take DAI and then compare it to DA2 and DAO, it is clear that DA2 and DAO were bold in areas that DAI stayes clear of. Use MEA as an example as well. MEA is largely and obviously lighter in tone than the rest of the MET; in the MET a companion can die whereas that doesnt happen in MEA. Everyone lives and is all jolly. Anyone who thinks DAO is "dark" needs to read more fantasy/sci-fi. Or just read A Song of Ice and Fire.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 3, 2017 2:45:55 GMT
Actually, they do kind of just sit there. After you tell the slaves in Hissing Wastes that they're free, what do they do? Continue to just sit there. You only get a follow up about them later via WT. We never get to SEE them experience freedom, only read about it. And have you been at a camp during a bear (or any other various thing) attack? Nobody from the camp does a damn thing to help, ever. They just wander around as if nothing is going on and the Inquisitor isn't getting mauled but 2 feet away. This is the concern many have with DA4: that we'll only hear/read about how bad and evil Tevinter is but never actually SEE it in game. And thus a large problem with DAI. The world isnt as emergent as The Witcher 3. NPCs are just static. You react to the world and so does your companions, but not the NPCs. Example: The window quest in Hinterlands. Had this been in TW3, we would have gotten close up cutscenes with the widow crying hard with emotional music playing in the background. When you finally see the body, the camera would have a zoomed in shot of the body with it being in a very bad condition with sounds of flies flying over the decomposing body. That is how TW3 would have done it. With DAI, none of what I explained happened in that quest. Again, an example of how far TW3 would go and Bioware shys away from.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 3, 2017 2:47:13 GMT
*sees game compared to the almighty Witcher franchise*
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Post by river82 on Nov 3, 2017 2:50:07 GMT
Anyone who thinks DAO is "dark" needs to read more fantasy/sci-fi. Or just read A Song of Ice and Fire. Considering the 6 year wait between novels, only if they wish to learn the true meaning of frustration
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 3, 2017 2:54:07 GMT
*sees game compared to the almighty Witcher franchise* Over 25 million units sold, numerous GOTY awards, high review scores, and general praise within the industry....I wouldn't say it is almighty but it definitely has a positive presence. And besides, the comparison was relevant to the topic. You may not like it but it is a solid comparison between how 2 games handles similar situations.
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Post by DragonKingReborn on Nov 3, 2017 3:07:35 GMT
Or just read A Song of Ice and Fire. Considering the 6 year wait between novels, only if they wish to learn the true meaning of frustration The pain is real.
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Post by isaidlunch on Nov 3, 2017 3:33:52 GMT
Perhaps in the larger scheme of things compared to other games (Like The Witcher series) yes, DA was never all that dark. However when you take DAI and then compare it to DA2 and DAO, it is clear that DA2 and DAO were bold in areas that DAI stayes clear of. Use MEA as an example as well. MEA is largely and obviously lighter in tone than the rest of the MET; in the MET a companion can die whereas that doesnt happen in MEA. Everyone lives and is all jolly. Anyone who thinks DAO is "dark" needs to read more fantasy/sci-fi. I haven't read much fantasy that gets darker than If that's not dark, what is?
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 3, 2017 3:38:24 GMT
DA wasn't that dark in the first place. And the sort of darkness that a hypothetical brothel might provide in some other game was never present; Bio brothels have always been places of relative sweetness and light. And that picking flowers line is just silly. Flowers show up in Cassandra's romance track, sure. In Josephine's you have to fight a duel. In the Iron Bull's you have to kill a dragon. Perhaps in the larger scheme of things compared to other games (Like The Witcher series) yes, DA was never all that dark. However when you take DAI and then compare it to DA2 and DAO, it is clear that DA2 and DAO were bold in areas that DAI stayes clear of. Use MEA as an example as well. MEA is largely and obviously lighter in tone than the rest of the MET; in the MET a companion can die whereas that doesnt happen in MEA. Everyone lives and is all jolly. You're going to have to work a bit more to sell "bold" there. I don't have any fantasy of being persecuted by feminists, so what's the evidence that "boldness" had anything to to with it? Yep, ME:A is lighter in tone. So what? DA2 was darker, DAI was lighter. Why shouldn't different games have different tones? Remember, nobody's actually saying that DAI had the exact same tone as DA:O or DA2. The argument is that the differences are not very significant, that such differences as exist are not caused by what you're saying they're caused by, and that brothels, in specific, are not really relevant because any darkness (or whatever) a brothel could provide would require attitudes towards the presentation of sexuality which were never present, by design, in any DA game. Thedas isn't about sexism; it just isn't. There's economic exploitation aplenty, but that's not something you need a brothel for. Discussion question : were the revelations about qunari culture in DAI controversial because people wanted sexism in Thedas, and the qunari were the last hope for that?
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Post by river82 on Nov 3, 2017 4:03:21 GMT
Discussion question : were the revelations about qunari culture in DAI controversial because people wanted sexism in Thedas, and the qunari were the last hope for that? Perceived as a retcon promoting inconsistency within the game solely to be less offensive ... as opposed to their horns which was a retcon to make them look less like frogs, I'm guessing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 3, 2017 4:04:31 GMT
*sees game compared to the almighty Witcher franchise* *snip* Over 25 million units sold, numerous GOTY awards, high review scores, and general praise within the industry....I wouldn't say it is almighty but it definitely has a positive presence. And besides, the comparison was relevant to the topic. You may not like it but it is a solid comparison between how 2 games handles similar situations. The Witcher fans in here certainly act like it is infallible. As for sale numbers and reviews, that's meaningless. Justin Beiber sold millions of records and got a lot of awards as well, doesn't make his music any less garbage. I'm just tired of it always being the great and powerful Witcher being held up as the example, hence the drinking game. There are plenty of other and better RPGs than the Witcher games to use, just to mix up the conversation if nothing else.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 3, 2017 4:06:07 GMT
Discussion question : were the revelations about qunari culture in DAI controversial because people wanted sexism in Thedas, and the qunari were the last hope for that? Perceived as a retcon promoting inconsistency within the game solely to be less offensive ... as opposed to their horns which was a retcon to make them look less like frogs, I'm guessing. Bioware always wanted the qunari to have horns, they just couldn't make it work in Origins thus Sten is a hornless qunari. No retcon there.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 3, 2017 4:49:53 GMT
Over 25 million units sold, numerous GOTY awards, high review scores, and general praise within the industry....I wouldn't say it is almighty but it definitely has a positive presence. And besides, the comparison was relevant to the topic. You may not like it but it is a solid comparison between how 2 games handles similar situations. The Witcher fans in here certainly act like it is infallible. As for sale numbers and reviews, that's meaningless. Justin Beiber sold millions of records and got a lot of awards as well, doesn't make his music any less garbage. I'm just tired of it always being the great and powerful Witcher being held up as the example, hence the drinking game. There are plenty of other and better RPGs than the Witcher games to use, just to mix up the conversation if nothing else. I dont recall the music industry holding Bieber in high regards in terms of quality output. On the other hand, The Witcher series is held in high regard within the industry from devs, gamers, and media in many areas. But that is irrelevant. The point is the comparison of how the Widow quest would have been handled had CDPR been at the helm given how they tackle sidequest and approach many themes in TW series. Exhibit A
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 3, 2017 5:06:09 GMT
The point is the comparison of how the Widow quest would have been handled had CDPR been at the helm given how they tackle sidequest and approach many themes in TW series. Exhibit A
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Post by smilesja on Nov 3, 2017 5:17:33 GMT
The Witcher fans in here certainly act like it is infallible. As for sale numbers and reviews, that's meaningless. Justin Beiber sold millions of records and got a lot of awards as well, doesn't make his music any less garbage. I'm just tired of it always being the great and powerful Witcher being held up as the example, hence the drinking game. There are plenty of other and better RPGs than the Witcher games to use, just to mix up the conversation if nothing else. I dont recall the music industry holding Bieber in high regards in terms of quality output. On the other hand, The Witcher series is held in high regard within the industry from devs, gamers, and media in many areas. But that is irrelevant. The point is the comparison of how the Widow quest would have been handled had CDPR been at the helm given how they tackle sidequest and approach many themes in TW series. Exhibit A Whoreson Junior was a boring generic villain built entirely for shock value.
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