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Post by bossattack on Oct 21, 2017 6:41:05 GMT
If you don't know VICE has a gaming site called Waypoint led by the talented writer/editor-in-chief Austin Walker. They usually put out some pretty great articles and think pieces but also do a weekly podcast. This week they sat down with Manveer Heir who worked for BioWare Montreal for seven years working on Mass Effect 3 and Andromeda. Although, he gained a certain infamy during his time at BioWare on certain forums for his "controversial" tweets. Mainly his attempts to speak about racism and privilege within society and the games industry. Nonetheless I thought he'd be a great guest and he was. I suggest everyone listen to the whole thing as he provides some insight into Andromeda's troubled development and the state of the industry regarding lootboxes and the "death of SP games." Waypoint Radio: We Talk EA Woes, Mass Effect: Andromeda, Race, and Sexism with Manveer HeirHighlights (some of which Jason Schrier's excellent article pointed out already) (I still suggest LISTENING to the whole podcast):
-Andromeda was initially a prequel dubbed "Mass Effect: Contact." Not everyone was happy with changing it to a sequel, though many were. -He was in charge of Gameplay design with Andromeda. In other words, pretty much everything related to how your character moved (jetpack, cover, rolling, dodging, etc.). The decision not to have snap cover wasn't his, but he made it work. -Mass Effect 3's lootboxes alone were INSANELY successful. ME3's MP alone made EA a lot of money, though he couldn't legally give specifics. The success of ME3's MP is why Dragon Age: Inquisition and every other further EA title had MP put into it. Apparently, one person alone dropped $15,000 into ME3's MP lootbox system. -Points to Anthem as the future with EA. It's not exactly a type of game BioWare traditionally makes ie linear, story driven. But, EA wants something similar to Destiny. Couldn't talk too much about Anthem since he knew "way too much." -Confirms that Andromeda was poorly managed. EA has a lot of middle management bloat. They have a really hard time managing their studios hence the reason for so many closures. Confirmed that Montreal was shutdown specifically because of mismanagement, less Andromeda's performance. -Stated that "lead writer at the time" (to me this can only mean Chris Schlerf who left mid-development) didn't really listen to concerns about the story from others. One thing he brought up along with others was that they needed to be careful about "colonialism" aspect of Andromeda. He and others were ignored by the writers. Unclear what this earlier version of the story looked like as in the game we received there is virtually no "colonialist" aspect to the story, the entire issue is side skirted by having the Kett just be villains and the majority of worlds uninhabited. -Confirms that the team didn't have a lot of experience with making open-world games, really struggled putting everything together and making the open world compelling. -Also confirmed earlier report from Jason that the game was basically put together in those last two years, that's when the game finally took shape. Although, he says that's not unusual for AAA games, especially open world ones. AAA, open world games "come in hot." So, when they miss they miss big. Not a lot of room for adjustment by the end. -Many on the team voiced their concerns about the open world design, problem was management thinking their own way. -Team understood there were bugs before launch but figured a Day 1 patch and maybe another a week later would fix all that. No one knew the extent of the bugs, especially the facial animations. "Memes killed Mass Effect: Andromeda." Team was pretty disheartened by all the memes after launch. -Great discussion about diversity, sexism, and racism within video games and how to tackle those subjects. Talked about Manveer's 2014 GDC talk about tackling these issues within the industry and how he gave the talk just before "GamerGate" hit, questioning whether we were too optimistic then. -Lastly, I spoke to him on Twitter and expressed my love of the podcast but also wished he spoke more about Andromeda's development. I specifically asked why NO ONE has ever talked about Gerard Lehiany (Creative Director) leaving the project. He said: "I wouldn't say he left..."Which confirmed my long-lasting suspicion that Lehiany was basically fired from the job. Which again, goes to show how mismanaged Andromeda was when the person they hired to lead the project was fired a year or so after.
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Post by thelonelypoet on Oct 21, 2017 7:08:28 GMT
Thank you for your thorough comment. Will listen.
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Post by ComedicSociopathy on Oct 21, 2017 7:34:05 GMT
So it's basically confirmed then? MEA was made in two years and was totally mismanaged. Good to have that story finally confirmed
EA being the one's responsible for Bioware push towards MP is disheartening but not surprising. EA trying to turn Bioware into some MP finanical giant by blantedly mimicking games like Destiny is just pathetic. Maybe I sound entitled but I play Bioware's for great SP experiences and the idea that resources being taken away from that for some generic cash grab MP is tragic in my eyes.
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Post by colfoley on Oct 21, 2017 7:49:37 GMT
So it's basically confirmed then? MEA was made in two years and was totally mismanaged. Good to have that story finally confirmed EA being the one's responsible for Bioware push towards MP is disheartening but not surprising. EA trying to turn Bioware into some MP finanical giant by blantedly mimicking games like Destiny is just pathetic. Maybe I sound entitled but I play Bioware's for great SP experiences and the idea that resources being taken away from that for some generic cash grab MP is tragic in my eyes. Yes, it was basically confirmed, months ago.
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Post by Jeremiah12LGeek on Oct 21, 2017 9:17:54 GMT
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Post by river82 on Oct 21, 2017 9:28:22 GMT
-Stated that "lead writer at the time" (to me this can only mean Chris Schlerf who left mid-development) didn't really listen to concerns about the story from others. One thing he brought up along with others was that they needed to be careful about "colonialism" aspect of Andromeda. He and others were ignored by the writers. Unclear what this earlier version of the story looked like as in the game we received there is virtually no "colonialist" aspect to the story, the entire issue is side skirted by having the Kett just be villains and the majority of worlds uninhabited. While Manveer's twitter is obnoxious at best, the people stating he was the reason for all the "social justice" problems in Andromeda were always way off base. He was a combat designer, and combat was pretty much the only thing universally regarded as a positive in the game. Anyway the quoted part above is something I'm noticing more and more from Bioware, nothing concrete but just a trend. This isn't the first time rumours circulated that people in charge of the story on Bioware didn't listen to criticisms from the rest of the team, though this time the source is a lot more legit.
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Post by Dukemon on Oct 21, 2017 9:38:45 GMT
The Kett are the product of two years and crappt the whole colonialism plot line? I did not know till this day... Not.
I am wondering, you can find developers and creative heads on Twitter, Facebook and so on. Where you can find that persons who are responsible for this tragic decisions like 'put more attention to multiplayer than to single-player ' or 'be ready in 2 years no day more'?
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Oct 21, 2017 10:21:30 GMT
I'm really worried that if their destiny clone flops EA will just kill Bioware too and we'll never get another DA. Never sell your company to EA.
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Post by Fredward on Oct 21, 2017 10:41:47 GMT
At this stage I'm half expecting DA4 to either be the last DA game or the last SP-focused game. There was a guy (indie game dev person) on Twitter talking about EAs closure of Visceral and apparently the endless free marketing Twitch streamers give MP games combined with loot boxes and etc make them much more appealing than SP games.
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Post by darkway1 on Oct 21, 2017 10:56:39 GMT
I'm really worried that if their destiny clone flops EA will just kill Bioware too and we'll never get another DA. Never sell your company to EA. Even if Anthem is a success,it's ultimately doomed because of it's "online service" nature........a sequel would mean the player base abandoning Anthem in favour of it predecessor,you won't even be able to play the original game due to lack of population or support......it's story,it's lore etc will all be lost. EA's throw away game formula is a good short term investment for FPS,sports and competitive gaming in general.......but for a studio like Bioware with a legacy of story driven RPG's that people still enjoy today,it can't work. Either way Bioware no longer seems able to produce game content it's renowned for.......so in effect,the old Bioware brand is dead.
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Post by natetrace on Oct 21, 2017 11:46:38 GMT
It was an interesting listen. I don't always agree with him using a person being white as a crutch to support his points but there were legitimate issues with Andromeda he addressed. I just hope we see more of the Andromeda galaxy, but I doubt. It would be seen as too risky with too much money at stake. Those investors scare easy. As for the white person being a crutch, he often mentions the white men in charge and how they didn't listen to the colonialism aspect. I doubt that had to do with their race and everything to do with just getting it done and not worrying about adding more to tackle with the game. Pick the Moshae at the end. There solved. Kinda joking, but perhaps a sequel could deal with colony fallout more than the first. I still think an expansion style thirty dollar game might be better than a full on sequel. Also I want Mass Effect Contact.
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Post by bossattack on Oct 21, 2017 12:22:22 GMT
It was an interesting listen. I don't always agree with him using a person being white as a crutch to support his points but there were legitimate issues with Andromeda he addressed. I just hope we see more of the Andromeda galaxy, but I doubt. It would be seen as too risky with too much money at stake. Those investors scare easy. As for the white person being a crutch, he often mentions the white men in charge and how they didn't listen to the colonialism aspect. I doubt that had to do with their race and everything to do with just getting it done and not worrying about adding more to tackle with the game. Pick the Moshae at the end. There solved. Kinda joking, but perhaps a sequel could deal with colony fallout more than the first. I still think an expansion style thirty dollar game might be better than a full on sequel. Also I want Mass Effect Contact. It's hard to talk about the colonialism aspect because we have no idea what that early version of the story looked like. We know that Christopher Sclerf left mid-production and that Gerard Lehiany was basically fired, both of whom were responsible for crafting the early narrative of the game. I'm guessing that whole part of the story was wiped away when Mac Walters finally took over. But, one of the many things that hurts Andromeda's overall narrative, which I will be discussing in my video once I'm done editing it, is how boring and safe everything is. There is no real ethical or moral conflicts at play in Andromeda. We just have a big bad enemy to fight and no interesting philosophical, moral, or ethical concepts to explore or debate with unlike the original trilogy. The entire Krogan plotline from Mass Effect 1 to the end is a direct exploration of many topics including colonialism. And, it's what made those games so much more interesting. A galaxy where everyone just kind of gets along and fights a big bad enemy isn't exactly compelling. Though back to the main "white dude" point, I think he was mainly pointing out how the lack of diversity in games development leads to homogenized games or large blind spots. You don't know, what you don know. So, a white dude is probably going to be totally oblivious to certain racial aspects that someone who is a minority might pick up on. I think BioShock Infinite is a good example, I love me my Ken Levine but I think most agree that Infinite's attempt to tackle race and racism is just really poor and laughable. And, it's precisely because Ken doesn't really have much experience in that area as opposed to Ayn Randian socioeconomic philosophy and the plight of post-WWII Jews which is something he does have personal experience with. Had Irrational had some more diverse individuals helping write that game I doubt it's tackling of those issues would have been so bare bones and thin. Diversity in games development means more view points which typically leads to better games, less diversity means the same viewpoints being regurgitated over and over. Lastly, I'm glad they never did Mass Effect: Contact. Moving to Andromeda was the right call, they just bungled it completely.
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Post by Link"Guess"ski on Oct 21, 2017 12:56:38 GMT
You guys know why I'm here. -Stated that "lead writer at the time" (to me this can only mean Chris Schlerf who left mid-development) didn't really listen to concerns about the story from others. One thing he brought up along with others was that they needed to be careful about "colonialism" aspect of Andromeda. He and others were ignored by the writers. Unclear what this earlier version of the story looked like as in the game we received there is virtually no "colonialist" aspect to the story, the entire issue is side skirted by having the Kett just be villains and the majority of worlds uninhabited. Mac Walters gonna Mac Walters. So much for him "saving the project" huh.
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Post by sil on Oct 21, 2017 12:58:21 GMT
The game could've done with more colonialism, that kind of thing breeds conflict which leads to more exciting stories.
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Post by isaidlunch on Oct 21, 2017 13:34:24 GMT
I came into this thread ready to be triggered, but he said a lot of insightful things. The parts about lootboxes and Anthem are especially concerning but I can't say I'm surprised.
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Post by anarchy65 on Oct 21, 2017 13:40:39 GMT
"-He was in charge of Gameplay design with Andromeda. In other words, pretty much everything related to how your character moved (jetpack, cover, rolling, dodging, etc.). The decision not to have snap cover wasn't his, but he made it work."
Gotta respect this guy, he developed the only thing that works right on this game, LOL.
And at least he's sincere in admiting problems in management and development and not just saying "No, everything was perfect, Andromeda is a great game, haters gonna hate"
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Post by rahavan on Oct 21, 2017 13:57:38 GMT
"-He was in charge of Gameplay design with Andromeda. In other words, pretty much everything related to how your character moved (jetpack, cover, rolling, dodging, etc.). The decision not to have snap cover wasn't his, but he made it work." Gotta respect this guy, he developed the only thing that works right on this game, LOL. And at least he's sincere in admiting problems in management and development and not just saying "No, everything was perfect, Andromeda is a great game, haters gonna hate" I think you mean instead of saying a ambiguous statement that doesn't mean anything ;D. On the topic of story its sad that Defiance has better inter-species relations than MEA. I say its sad because Defiance is a space western while MEA is supposed to mirror true Scifi like star trek. I still feel kinda bad cuz I was one of those people who made ME3MP so popular :x I was young and stupid, forgive me. I mean at least I wasn't the guy who had suck bad completionest syndrome he dropped that 1500 USD. Still I don't understand why EA didn't view that as a one hit wonder.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Oct 21, 2017 14:24:57 GMT
Yeah I can't imagine I'd agree with Manveer on colonialism considering his views but the game did pretty much ignore the subject entirely and the plot most certainly did suffer for it. IDK if what I would want to see is what Manveer would want but shying away from exploring subjects like that too much when that is basically what the entire game is about is an incredibly bad decision.
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Post by rahavan on Oct 21, 2017 15:13:31 GMT
Yeah I can't imagine I'd agree with Manveer on colonialism considering his views but the game did pretty much ignore the subject entirely and the plot most certainly did suffer for it. IDK if what I would want to see is what Manveer would want but shying away from exploring subjects like that too much when that is basically what the entire game is about is an incredibly decision. I agree that it seems confusing to shy away from the subject. The parts of the story I enjoyed the most where setting up settlements AND the quests afterwards. Kadaras story and elaaden were my fav. Even Eos was good with the architect mission where had to basically choose how you were going to deal with a foreign nation. Voeld had things good too smoothly as did Harval. That doesn't make much sense when those two are the planets controlled by the Angara. I quite frankly didn't give a shit about the Kett who in my eyes were borg rip offs.
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Post by mikeymoonshine on Oct 21, 2017 15:21:44 GMT
Yeah I can't imagine I'd agree with Manveer on colonialism considering his views but the game did pretty much ignore the subject entirely and the plot most certainly did suffer for it. IDK if what I would want to see is what Manveer would want but shying away from exploring subjects like that too much when that is basically what the entire game is about is an incredibly decision. I agree that it seems confusing to shy away from the subject. The parts of the story I enjoyed the most where setting up settlements AND the quests afterwards. Kadaras story and elaaden were my fav. Even Eos was good with the architect mission where had to basically choose how you were going to deal with a foreign nation. Voeld had things good too smoothly as did Harval. That doesn't make much sense when those two are the planets controlled by the Angara. I quite frankly didn't give a shit about the Kett who in my eyes were borg rip offs. lol u made me notice that i missed out the word "bad" For me I expected the choice whether or not to shoot the Kett in the first contact situation would have impact but instead of going into the various moral and tactical issues about colonising worlds they just made the Kett the big bad moustache twirling colonisers who yeah were like the borg. That way the plot can mostly ignore that your people are colonisers too other than very minor references to it. Instead of having choices on whether or not to do it in a hostile way or find peaceful ways to co-exist with the Angara it's all about proving that your people are better than the Kett.
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Post by The Biotic Trebuchet on Oct 21, 2017 15:49:55 GMT
ME:A was memed to death? lol
Now, colonialism could have been a good topic/background to the story in ME:A, kinda like the racism from the humans in The witcher.
PS: $15000 IN LOOTBOXES, What the shit? didn't this guy know about the console and -givecredits XXXX
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Post by Cyonan on Oct 21, 2017 15:49:56 GMT
While it's not uncommon for some bugs to slip by unnoticed the fact that something as big as the facial animations did shows just how piss poorly the entire thing was managed.
It's a shame that another entire studio(and now Visceral) had to be shut down because EA can't pull their collective heads out of their asses long enough to see just how rubbish their way of managing studios is.
I'm not about to defend the game as anything but mediocre, but frankly it's impressive that they even managed that given what we're hearing right now. I imagine that it would have actually been a great game had they had the full 5 years to do actual proper development.
It was also a huge missed opportunity to not play on the colonialism angle. That's something that's largely unexplored by video games right now. Though it's something that would have needed more time to be done right.
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Post by Pearl on Oct 21, 2017 16:02:01 GMT
PS: $15000 IN LOOTBOXES, What the shit? didn't this guy know about the console and -givecredits XXXX Whales. 80% of the profit off of microtransactions typically comes from about 20% of the playerbase, so it's not too difficult to imagine that there are more people like that dude out there.
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Post by SofNascimento on Oct 21, 2017 16:02:38 GMT
If Andromeda was a mess of a story with its childish and simplistic tone, imagine how terrible it would be if tried something that needed more naunce.
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 21, 2017 16:08:18 GMT
You guys know why I'm here. -Stated that "lead writer at the time" (to me this can only mean Chris Schlerf who left mid-development) didn't really listen to concerns about the story from others. One thing he brought up along with others was that they needed to be careful about "colonialism" aspect of Andromeda. He and others were ignored by the writers. Unclear what this earlier version of the story looked like as in the game we received there is virtually no "colonialist" aspect to the story, the entire issue is side skirted by having the Kett just be villains and the majority of worlds uninhabited. Mac Walters gonna Mac Walters. So much for him "saving the project" huh. Compared to what they had before he showed up, maybe he did.
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