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Post by warrior on Nov 1, 2017 18:55:50 GMT
Having just replayed the trilogy, I think ME2 is still the most fun. ME1 was still very fun despite its problems with combat. I think you're selling the actual game short because the combat has aged so poorly. ME3 was in some ways the best game of the three because of the 'stakes' and pacing, but ME2 just has a spark. But playing them all so close in time really did accentuate how different the games are from one another for me. You can't really ignore that post-EA the series changed to become less RPG and more streamlined shooter than its first indie installment, and ME3 was a very hard turn away from its roots. Part of it was the short development timeline, maybe. But compare this to TES, for example, where changes to the series happen, but not so drastically. People tend to be welcoming of changes that add options (*cough* except for LGBT romances *cough*), but not so welcoming of changes that subtract options. The difference between ME1 and ME3 is dramatic. So people who jumped on early and were upset to lose certain elements in ME2 were predictably even more upset when ME3 launched because it was practically just a shooter with some dialogue options. So while I like all three games and even MEA (my least favorite), I see why this fandom's original base was so unhappy compared to other fandoms. ME1 didn't "age poorly," it's controls, mechanics, and gameplay were dated from the jump. All I see with this fanbase is entitlement and resistance to change. (And lets leave the political shit outta this one, m'kay?) If that's true and people loved it that much despite being frustrated at every turn -- that it wasn't DOA -- it really only further supports what I said -- the original ME base cared so much about story driven RPG elements and worldbuilding that when the series kept hemorrhaging those things in favor of a more streamlined experience, they only got more disappointed. But I wasn't here for any of that backlash. I'm just saying that ME3 and ME1 are very different in structure, as if produced for two different markets.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 18:57:12 GMT
ME1 didn't "age poorly," it's controls, mechanics, and gameplay were dated from the jump. All I see with this fanbase is entitlement and resistance to change. (And lets leave the political shit outta this one, m'kay?) If that's true and people loved it that much despite being frustrated at every turn -- that it wasn't DOA -- it really only further supports what I said -- the original ME base cared so much about story driven RPG elements and worldbuilding that when the series kept hemorrhaging those things in favor of a more streamlined experience, they only got more disappointed. But I wasn't here for any of that backlash. I'm just saying that ME3 and ME1 are very different in structure, as if produced for two different markets. I can see it and am happy with the direction ME went, but I don't think it ever lost it's story and worldbuilding aspects, just the RPG elements that bogged the first one down so much.
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Post by themikefest on Nov 1, 2017 19:04:00 GMT
I agree if only using ME3, but Jeff beats Kallo in ME1/2 Nope. Chakwas wins. She's human. Human's beat asari, humanity #1 Nope. Traynor wins with the voice and beating Shepard at chess Why comparing with Steve? I would say Ken/Gabby beat Gil
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Nov 1, 2017 19:07:19 GMT
I agree if only using ME3, but Jeff beats Kallo in ME1/2 Nope. Chakwas wins. She's human. Human's beat asari, humanity #1 Nope. Traynor wins with the voice and beating Shepard at chess Why comparing with Steve? I would say Ken/Gabby beat Gil We'll have to agree to disagree. Again, agree to disagree since I don't use a person's race against them. Agree to disagree again, though with you mentioning the chess match I wish we could have actually played the game and the cutscene reacts differently depending on what happens. Gabby perhaps, but I do not like Kenneth at all so if we are putting them together then he drags them both down below Gil.
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Post by abaris on Nov 1, 2017 19:15:02 GMT
Yeah I guess that's kinda what I meant -- the games all feel very similar in structure, even FO4. Fallout 4 changed it up the most by adding a VA pc for a more focused story..... and no one liked it. Ha. The VO isn't that much of a problem though. The shitty story premise is.
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Post by Kroitz on Nov 1, 2017 19:43:25 GMT
Let Anthem arrive and see how open to change y'all are.
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Post by warrior on Nov 1, 2017 20:04:59 GMT
Yeah I guess that's kinda what I meant -- the games all feel very similar in structure, even FO4. Fallout 4 changed it up the most by adding a VA pc for a more focused story..... and no one liked it. Ha. The VO isn't that much of a problem though. The shitty story premise is. I mean, for you. The story was bad, but if the story was good you would have welcomed the change or at least been neutral. But for many fans of the og games in the series, no voiced protag would have been okay no matter the story -- it was a big change in gaming experience because it severely limited dialogue options and messed with roleplay. Actually I remember some of the complainers (before release) saying, Fallout isn't Mass Effect, why are they trying to make it Mass Effect! Most diehard fans of a franchise are resistant to major changes to gaming experience/structure is the point. ETA: also when Bethesda took over FO and revamped it people were huge babies about it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 20:35:46 GMT
For me, despite the ending debacle, ME3 > ME2 > ME1 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MEA. So I obviously disagree with the contention that the latest game is always considered the worst one. I liked each game in the OT better than the previous one, but the OT as a whole was pretty amazing. MEA however, represents a shocking, almost precipitous drop in quality, to the point where it doesn't even feel like a Mass Effect game to me. YMMV. Shocking drop in quality? Did we play the same game or did I get the one "good" copy? Lol. Dude, here's the thing. The enjoyment of a game is subjective. If you liked MEA, I envy you, really. I wish I could look upon the 4 Mass Effect games and not judge MEA to be the worst. But I don't understand the point of starting a thread like this if you have no interest in trying to understand other people's points of view. I thought MEA was the worst of the series because for me, it had none of the storytelling genius that made the OT stand out amongst all other games. It lacked whatever quality the OT had that still makes me want to replay it after all these years, even though ME1 has, admittedly, aged badly. This is not about being objectively right or wrong. That is never going to happen. You are never going to convince people who hated MEA that it was a good game. The best you can hope for is an idea of why people liked or disliked it. If you're not satisfied with that, if you insist upon trying to convince people that MEA is a great game by your arbitrary metrics, then good luck.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 20:40:05 GMT
Shocking drop in quality? Did we play the same game or did I get the one "good" copy? Lol. Dude, here's the thing. The enjoyment of a game is subjective. If you liked MEA, I envy you, really. I wish I could look upon the 4 Mass Effect games and not judge MEA to be the worst. But I don't understand the point of starting a thread like this if you have no interest in trying to understand other people's points of view. I thought MEA was the worst of the series because for me, it had none of the storytelling genius that made the OT stand out amongst all other games. It lacked whatever quality the OT had that still makes me want to replay it after all these years, even though ME1 has, admittedly, aged badly. This is not about being objectively right or wrong. That is never going to happen. You are never going to convince people who hated MEA that it was a good game. The best you can hope for is an idea of why people liked or disliked it. If you're not satisfied with that, if you insist upon trying to convince people that MEA is a great game by your arbitrary metrics, then good luck. Something like quality of the game wouldn't strike me as subjective. Liking a game or not is subjective. ME:A doesn't lack quality, it's just not to everyone's taste. Games like Time Ramesside lack quality. Besides, this thread is about my observation on how the ME fanbase reacts to new games and retroactively reacts to old ones. Not defending my opinion of ME:A or forcing said opinion on others.
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Post by Iakus on Nov 1, 2017 20:59:40 GMT
Then I guess it's true for everybody One could say the same for your statement of "terribly mediocre." One could. But then, that leads to the question of where's the ongoing support?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 1, 2017 21:06:18 GMT
Lol. Dude, here's the thing. The enjoyment of a game is subjective. If you liked MEA, I envy you, really. I wish I could look upon the 4 Mass Effect games and not judge MEA to be the worst. But I don't understand the point of starting a thread like this if you have no interest in trying to understand other people's points of view. I thought MEA was the worst of the series because for me, it had none of the storytelling genius that made the OT stand out amongst all other games. It lacked whatever quality the OT had that still makes me want to replay it after all these years, even though ME1 has, admittedly, aged badly. This is not about being objectively right or wrong. That is never going to happen. You are never going to convince people who hated MEA that it was a good game. The best you can hope for is an idea of why people liked or disliked it. If you're not satisfied with that, if you insist upon trying to convince people that MEA is a great game by your arbitrary metrics, then good luck. Something like quality of the game wouldn't strike me as subjective. Liking a game or not is subjective. ME:A doesn't lack quality, it's just not to everyone's taste. Games like Time Ramesside lack quality. Besides, this thread is about my observation on how the ME fanbase reacts to new games and retroactively reacts to old ones. Not defending my opinion of ME:A or forcing said opinion on others. Really? How is the "quality" of a game like MEA "objective"? Please lay down your criteria. Each game raises a certain set of expectations for the next game. If the first game tells a story, you expect the next game to elaborate upon that story and take you deeper into the universe. How you feel that subjectivity doesn't encroach upon that set of expectations is beyond me. Again, what are your criteria for an "objectively" good game? You have none, because if you had, EA would have hired you long ago. You're just one end user. You're probably the kind of end user EA hopes all of us were modeled after, but unfortunately, we were around when ME1 arrived, when ME2 elevated the ME experience and when ME3 thrilled and disappointed us. If you loved MEA, good for you. For the rest of us, it was a disaster. Deal with it, or don't. We don't really care what you think.
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Post by cypherj on Nov 1, 2017 21:08:34 GMT
Lol. Dude, here's the thing. The enjoyment of a game is subjective. If you liked MEA, I envy you, really. I wish I could look upon the 4 Mass Effect games and not judge MEA to be the worst. But I don't understand the point of starting a thread like this if you have no interest in trying to understand other people's points of view. I thought MEA was the worst of the series because for me, it had none of the storytelling genius that made the OT stand out amongst all other games. It lacked whatever quality the OT had that still makes me want to replay it after all these years, even though ME1 has, admittedly, aged badly. This is not about being objectively right or wrong. That is never going to happen. You are never going to convince people who hated MEA that it was a good game. The best you can hope for is an idea of why people liked or disliked it. If you're not satisfied with that, if you insist upon trying to convince people that MEA is a great game by your arbitrary metrics, then good luck. Something like quality of the game wouldn't strike me as subjective. Liking a game or not is subjective. ME:A doesn't lack quality, it's just not to everyone's taste. Games like Time Ramesside lack quality. Besides, this thread is about my observation on how the ME fanbase reacts to new games and retroactively reacts to old ones. Not defending my opinion of ME:A or forcing said opinion on others. Quality of the game is definitely subjective. Was the writing good quality, the quest design, the level design, etc. It's digital so it's not like you can look at it and say the craftsmanship is excellent. It's all subjective. Also, they spent months after the games release doing nothing but patching it and making improvements due to the shape it was released in. If that's not a quality issue I don't know what is. That's like me saying Arkham night didn't have quality issues when it was released.
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Post by river82 on Nov 1, 2017 21:18:05 GMT
Yeah, I've seen zero evidence of this, in all the time I've been here. Unless the other side of this schism just vanished off the face of BSN. And if you consider me in the "post-ME2 fans" camp, I haven't seen earlier features being reintroduced that were suddenly complained about. Do you have any examples? I've seen plenty of evidence of this, but to see it you'd have to get off BSN.
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Post by river82 on Nov 1, 2017 21:22:08 GMT
But for me: Kallo beats Joker I think I just died. I found Joker hilarious :3
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Post by Andrew Lucas on Nov 1, 2017 22:50:43 GMT
One could say the same for your statement of "terribly mediocre." One could. But then, that leads to the question of where's the ongoing support? It's probably with the Quarian Ark DLC.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 2, 2017 0:34:11 GMT
I don't see how your playstyle in ME2 could change with multiple playthroughs more than it could in ME3. And you're just ignoring power evolutions. I also don't see how ME1 isn't the worst game in the series by your criteria. You'll unlock every ability fast too (unless you're gimping yourself), since that game really does favor rushing for the unlocks. No, I'm taking in to consideration power evolutions. That's why I haven't brought them up. And no, you can't. You can't unlock every skill (even by end game) unlike ME3 and ME:A. Huh? I'm looking at a ME1 Vanguard right now. With Feros, many SQs, and the endgame still to go, this character is at level 39. Every skill is unlocked. Throw is maxed, other skills are at Advanced except for Barrier and First Aid.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 2, 2017 2:16:39 GMT
What you forget is that prior to MEA was DAI, which was the fastest selling Bioware game, high review scores, and multiple GOTY awards. Wait, weren't you one of the people who argued that DAI only won its GOTY because you consider it to have had no real competition? Also, I remember people who believed EA had bought the GOTY, who disbelieved EA's statement about DAI's sales and I believe people who pointed to metacritic scores. DAI had the same kind of reception that I saw DA2 receive and if what I've heard is right, DAO got a similar reception. There is something to this phenomenon of a game being considered the worst and then "vindicated" by the game that came next or by time. Yes, DAI had no competition and MEA had stiff competition in Zelda and Horizon, but at least DAI got deserved nominations (and won many) while MEA has failed to be nominated for anything story/gameplay related. Second, while I do believe that TW3 ultimately sold more than DAI....which is what I always argued, I never argued that EA was lying regarding DAI being the fastest selling Bioware game. Considering that the ME brand is just as popular (if not more than DA) then why couldn't MEA match DAI or surpass DAI? Don't try to use the ME3 ending excuse because DAI was able to rebound from DA2's reception so why couldn't MEA? So my point still remains which is that: 1) MEA is the lowest reviewed ME game 2) MEA is the only ME game not to get SP DLC 3) MEA was made by a B-Team, the same B-Team that just happened to also make the worst (in terms of review scores) SP DLC for ME3 Those are facts and based on those facts, MEA is the worst Mass Effect title based on those above items.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 2, 2017 2:25:52 GMT
Except MEA IS actually the worst when it comes to perception and review scores and it is doubtful that MEA sold more than DAI or ME3. Reception/Sales mean nothing to me. To put it in perspective: 1) MEA is the lowest reviewed Mass Effect title 2) MEA is the only ME title to not receive SP DLC 3) MEA will be the only MEA title to not receive RPG of the Year or GOTY nominations/awards 4) MEA was created by a B-Team who also made one of ME3's worst SP DLCs and one of the worst in the entire MET 1.) Irrelevant 2.) True, but why is still unknown. 3.) Again, irrelevant 4.) B-Team? Sure. Still better than the rest of the AAA swamp? Most definitely. For me it is: ME1 >>> ME2 >>> ME3 I dont list MEA cause I dont see it as a true and serious ME game worthy of being part of the franchise. To me it is a really bad fan fiction. The cannon of the series doesn't care what your opinion is. 1) It is still fact and doesn't have to be relevant to you. 2) If MEA was the fastest selling Bioware game ever, the highest reviewed Bioware game ever, and sold 10 million units the first week.....logic would tell you that EA would be milking the hell out of MEA and we would probably be either on our 2nd SP DLC by now or currently awaiting it's release. So please don't play the whole, "EA Planned it....." card because even if EA planned it.....plans changes all the time based on current conditions and if those conditions dictated that SP DLC is profitable, then they would have adjusted fire. Obviously they didn't do that. You can deny all you want but SP DLC was planned but was canned due to the reception and possibly sales and review scores. 3) It is still fact and doesn't have to be relevant to you. I mention it because it is another example of how MEA is indeed the worst ME game. 4) This isn't about MEA vs the rest of the AAA swamp, it is about MEA vs the rest of the ME games. So the B-Team who made MEA, made MEA the lowest reviewed ME game ever and was the same B-Team who just happened to make.....Omega which was ME3's lowest reviewed SP DLC. So they are 0-2 when it comes to development as both of their products ended up being the lowest reviewed in the given category.
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Post by majesticjazz on Nov 2, 2017 2:27:33 GMT
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Post by flyingovertrout on Nov 2, 2017 2:36:57 GMT
I've particularly enjoyed how Casey Hudson went from Guy Who Destroyed His Own Singular Creation to Our Lord and Savior Has Risen Amen.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 3:28:33 GMT
No, I'm taking in to consideration power evolutions. That's why I haven't brought them up. And no, you can't. You can't unlock every skill (even by end game) unlike ME3 and ME:A. Huh? I'm looking at a ME1 Vanguard right now. With Feros, many SQs, and the endgame still to go, this character is at level 39. Every skill is unlocked. Throw is maxed, other skills are at Advanced except for Barrier and First Aid. You get 80 total talent points by level 60. There are 8+1 talents with the +1 being the added talent with 12 points in each talent. It would take 96 points for 8 or 108 points for 9. You can't max them all. Edit: There are 11 total talents by the end of the game for a total of 132 points Edit: Edit: The old gold standard forum for reference... Gold Standard
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Post by cypherj on Nov 2, 2017 3:36:45 GMT
I've particularly enjoyed how Casey Hudson went from Guy Who Destroyed His Own Singular Creation to Our Lord and Savior Has Risen Amen. After the torch and run he did on the OT, I don't see how so many people just think now that he's GM everything will be fine.
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Post by river82 on Nov 2, 2017 4:08:58 GMT
Casey Hudson copped the blame for the ending of ME3 but the ending was always going to be underwhelming due to ... circumstances. The vast majority of ME3 was really well received. I always thought the uproar over the ending was a little over the top, and Hudson was swept up along with it imo.
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Post by alanc9 on Nov 2, 2017 5:27:16 GMT
Huh? I'm looking at a ME1 Vanguard right now. With Feros, many SQs, and the endgame still to go, this character is at level 39. Every skill is unlocked. Throw is maxed, other skills are at Advanced except for Barrier and First Aid. You get 80 total talent points by level 60. There are 8+1 talents with the +1 being the added talent with 12 points in each talent. It would take 96 points for 8 or 108 points for 9. You can't max them all. Edit: There are 11 total talents by the end of the game for a total of 132 points Edit: Edit: The old gold standard forum for reference... Gold StandardSure, we can't max all talents. But what you actually said was: Unlock doesn't mean max, of course. Leaving your confusion aside, what's the actual problem here, and when does it come up? What level do you have to reach in ME:A to max everything? (I've never managed it myself.) Can it even be done in ME3? How many DLCs do you need? It can't be done in ME2 since you reach the level cap first... or is that a problem too?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2017 9:15:02 GMT
I don't recall any major backlash against Mass Effect 2 on the offical Bioware social network. There was criticism on pretty much every aspect game, yes, but it never seemed to outweigh the games' praise.
Mass Effect 3 obivously got grinded for the ending controversy, though that arguably drew attention away from the game's other issues. The game had a positive response on pretty much all other fronts however.
And about Andromeda, well let's just say that it's status as lowest reviewed Mass Effect entry is wholly deserved. If Andromeda was released back in 2007 as the first Mass Effect game with the technology of it's time, I actually think it might have gotten a similar recepetion as Mass Effect 1. It's not a poorly designed game, it just wasn't smart enough.
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