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Post by xerrai on Oct 9, 2016 21:14:44 GMT
Tough choice between Varric the coward and conniving little shit, and Cole the universe's most boring demon. Voted for the former just because the latter isn't mandatory after CotJ. Not surprised Viv's so unpopular. Most people can't handle an alpha female. IMO she's the best DAI companion. Only mage I can tolerate other than Morrigan. Love her as Divine, cracking down on the indolent rebel scum. [...] I don't get why Vivienne is obsessed with accruing more political power though. The greatest power in Thedas is not politics, it is magic - Even more so if you are a mage. If she truly desires to be at the top, she should focus on honing her magics while keeping political power as a secondary. It is probably why Morrigan ended up ousting her from Celene's side - Morrigan is the more powerful mage. I mean, all the political power and Grand Game mastery in the world is not going to mean anything when you have someone who can petrify others by a mere thought and an eye flash (no hand gestures required) running around trying to bring about an apocalyptic event. I wouldn't' be so sure about that. For all of the might ad power that magic is (and there is no doubt magic is powerful), that hasn't stopped it from being trounced by politics. Politics is what keeps the mages in Circles, politics is what keeps mages out of power in the south, politics is what constantly tries to keep a firm hand on magic. Outside of Tevinter at least, politics is more 'powerful' than magic. They have nations, treaties, numbers and in the Chantry's case, magic countermeasures (Templars). Meanwhile magic has solidarity within the highly regulated Circle and hedge mages that dare not show their faces in society lest they be tracked by Templars or killed by townspeople. As for Morrigan though....I honestly thought it was because of either the eluvians or simply having more mage-mystique than Vivienne. Morrigan simply seems more mystical and interesting than most Circle mages precisely because it is so unorthodox. It's unusual, its exotic, it's exciting. We already know that word around the court is that the Empress is highly interested in the occult and mysticism--something which Morrigan practically specializes in as the daughter of Flemeth obsessed with old knowledge and secrets. Even if Morrigan was simply bland and had no power to speak of, she does still have something that would likely interest the Empress--knowledge of the eluvians. After the fallout in Masked Empire, Celene is probably still interested in the advantage the eluvians could give, but she knows she could no longer rely on Briala to give them to her.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 9, 2016 22:07:31 GMT
I was under the impression that Celene hired Morrigan because she feared that Gaspard and Briala could have used the eluvians against her,so she wanted a mage who knew something about those mirrors,i think if she had knew about Solas or Merril she would have tried to hire them.
As soon as the issue with Gaspard is resolved she immediatly get rid of Morrigan and sent her away into the Inquisition and it seem to me that she did not requested nor asked for her anymore
How Celene contacted Morrigan however i do not know,in fact i don't know how Celine could possibly know about her after WH.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 9, 2016 22:33:48 GMT
Tough choice between Varric the coward and conniving little shit, and Cole the universe's most boring demon. Voted for the former just because the latter isn't mandatory after CotJ. Not surprised Viv's so unpopular. Most people can't handle an alpha female. IMO she's the best DAI companion. Only mage I can tolerate other than Morrigan. Love her as Divine, cracking down on the indolent rebel scum. People dislike Vivienne because she does not walk the talk. Put it simply, she is a hypocrite. She says she wants mages to have restrictions but she is not willing to be constrained by them. To be fair, Vivienne is more politician than she is a mage, so hypocrisy might be par for the course. I don't get why Vivienne is obsessed with accruing more political power though. The greatest power in Thedas is not politics, it is magic - Even more so if you are a mage. If she truly desires to be at the top, she should focus on honing her magics while keeping political power as a secondary. It is probably why Morrigan ended up ousting her from Celene's side - Morrigan is the more powerful mage. I mean, all the political power and Grand Game mastery in the world is not going to mean anything when you have someone who can petrify others by a mere thought and an eye flash (no hand gestures required) running around trying to bring about an apocalyptic event. Because she lives in Orlais. Remember these are people who play The Great Game who put their own gains above others. Titles in Orlais may seem pointless to us along with politics but to Orlesians its just as important if not more then air. Um. What?
Vivienne is by no means an alpha female. I personally don't see the necessity to have such a title but if such a title was needed I'd give it to Cassandra.
You do realize that Vivienne only joined the Inquisition to further her own power, yes? Which is similar to what Lohgain did. In my opinion: taking advantage of a crisis to further your own personal gains is despicable. I could go into further discussion about why Vivienne is a vile piece of shit, but that would be very long. As for her being Divine, well to each their own. I for one do not want a tyrant sitting on the Sunburst Throne. Loghain and Vivienne are much different,i don't see any parallell between these two. (Sighs)
You've missed the point. The actions Loghain did are not at all similar to those of Vivienne. I am well aware of that. The point is: They both took advantage of a crisis to maneuver themselves into a place of power. The actions are not parallels but the goals are the same: power.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 9, 2016 22:38:34 GMT
People dislike Vivienne because she does not walk the talk. Put it simply, she is a hypocrite. She says she wants mages to have restrictions but she is not willing to be constrained by them. To be fair, Vivienne is more politician than she is a mage, so hypocrisy might be par for the course. I don't get why Vivienne is obsessed with accruing more political power though. The greatest power in Thedas is not politics, it is magic - Even more so if you are a mage. If she truly desires to be at the top, she should focus on honing her magics while keeping political power as a secondary. It is probably why Morrigan ended up ousting her from Celene's side - Morrigan is the more powerful mage. I mean, all the political power and Grand Game mastery in the world is not going to mean anything when you have someone who can petrify others by a mere thought and an eye flash (no hand gestures required) running around trying to bring about an apocalyptic event. Because she lives in Orlais. Remember these are people who play The Great Game who put their own gains above others. Titles in Orlais may seem pointless to us along with politics but to Orlesians its just as important if not more then air. Loghain and Vivienne are much different,i don't see any parallell between these two. (Sighs)
You've missed the point. The actions Loghain did are not at all similar to those of Vivienne. I am well aware of that. The point is: They both took advantage of a crisis to maneuver themselves into a place of power. The actions are not parallels but the goals are the same: power. Loghain's goal was not about power in DAO,that's why he and Vivienne don't have anything in common.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 9, 2016 22:52:46 GMT
Because she lives in Orlais. Remember these are people who play The Great Game who put their own gains above others. Titles in Orlais may seem pointless to us along with politics but to Orlesians its just as important if not more then air. (Sighs)
You've missed the point. The actions Loghain did are not at all similar to those of Vivienne. I am well aware of that. The point is: They both took advantage of a crisis to maneuver themselves into a place of power. The actions are not parallels but the goals are the same: power. Loghain's goal was not about power in DAO,that's why he and Vivienne don't have anything in common. Uh yeah it was. Loghain was so obsessed with keeping the Orlesians out he felt the only way that could happen if he was in charge. He felt as though King Calin was not as good a ruler as King Maric.
Of course I could have misinterpreted the whole thing and he simply wanted to be Regnant to you know, build a nug farm.
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Post by oyabun on Oct 9, 2016 23:00:34 GMT
Loghain's goal was not about power in DAO,that's why he and Vivienne don't have anything in common. Uh yeah it was. Loghain was so obsessed with keeping the Orlesians out he felt the only way that could happen if he was in charge. He felt as though King Calin was not as good a ruler as King Maric.
Of course I could have misinterpreted the whole thing and he simply wanted to be Regnant to you know, build a nug farm.
Loghain's goal was not about power itself,he did not wanted to become ruler in Ferelden but he tought to be the only one able to resolve the crisis. Vivienne life is based on gaining more political power ,that is her goal,but she and Loghain are very much different there are no fitting parallells between these two or now i can say that a bird and butterfly are similar just because they can both fly.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 9, 2016 23:18:00 GMT
Uh yeah it was. Loghain was so obsessed with keeping the Orlesians out he felt the only way that could happen if he was in charge. He felt as though King Calin was not as good a ruler as King Maric.
Of course I could have misinterpreted the whole thing and he simply wanted to be Regnant to you know, build a nug farm.
Loghain's goal was not about power itself,he did not wanted to become ruler in Ferelden but he tought to be the only one able to resolve the crisis. Vivienne life is based on gaining more political power ,that is her goal,but she and Loghain are very much different there are no fitting parallells between these two or now i can say that a bird and butterfly are similar just because they can both fly. (Rubs forehead)
A person who places themselves in power has a reason they want to be there. As I have said numerous times, they take advantage of a crisis to place themselves in a higher position then what they currently have. If Loghain did not want to improve his station for the so-called "betterment of Fereldan" then he would not have done what he did and furthermore would not declare himself regent.
You assume that I making a broad comparison- I am not. I would not do such if I did not have all my ducks in a row - as it were.
Apperntly you are not understanding my view point at all and I am not with yours. Thus I suggest we agree to disagree.
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Post by Ms. Noxxy on Oct 10, 2016 4:51:54 GMT
Can't say I hate any of them, but Blackwall gets my vote. He doesn't seem to give much and seems boring overall. While I don't agree on Viv's views, I did keep her with Iron bull quite a lot, they have some funny talks
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 8:57:54 GMT
I've disliked Vivienne since the time that she told me that Kirkwall wasn't as bad as everyone says it was. Wait, what? I could put up with her snotty attitude until then. After that? Nope. She's on my shit list, and I even asked about having her killed off/excluded from the group. Did she say that? I don't remember that bit. Could you give me a quick rundown of the conversation? Ideally including more detail about exactly what she said?
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Post by Patricia on Oct 10, 2016 11:43:21 GMT
Why can't i vote twice there are two turd's who are in need of a vote out from me.
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Post by Tuchanka Love on Oct 10, 2016 12:03:19 GMT
Also another thing that bothers me about Viv is how she constantly looks down on Ferelden. Bitch get out of here. I hate orleaseans and the ones pretending to be orleseans like Viv.
She calls the Marquis in her party a dog lord. She thinks Morrigan is a barbarian. She makes fun of the castle you aquire in Crestwood as being good by "ferelden standards" and chuckle.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 12:10:30 GMT
Also another thing that bothers me about Viv is how she constantly looks down on Ferelden. Bitch get out of here. I hate orleaseans and the ones pretending to be orleseans like Viv. She calls the Marquis in her party a dog lord. She thinks Morrigan is a barbarian. She makes fun of the castle you aquire in Crestwood as being good by "ferelden standards" and chuckle. Do not need more evidence against Vivienne. A person, who uses DARLING, MY DEAR words, such way as she, rarely be a good person.
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Post by goishen on Oct 10, 2016 13:10:40 GMT
I've disliked Vivienne since the time that she told me that Kirkwall wasn't as bad as everyone says it was. Wait, what? I could put up with her snotty attitude until then. After that? Nope. She's on my shit list, and I even asked about having her killed off/excluded from the group. Did she say that? I don't remember that bit. Could you give me a quick rundown of the conversation? Ideally including more detail about exactly what she said? It was just something that she said right after you got her, maybe one or two conversations in. I can't recall all of it, the best thing to do is hit up youtube.
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Post by HYR on Oct 10, 2016 15:59:40 GMT
Did she say that? I don't remember that bit. Could you give me a quick rundown of the conversation? Ideally including more detail about exactly what she said? It was just something that she said right after you got her, maybe one or two conversations in. I can't recall all of it, the best thing to do is hit up youtube. I'm pretty sure she said the Kirkwall Circle *was* that bad, but that it is the exception, not the rule.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 16:02:05 GMT
It was just something that she said right after you got her, maybe one or two conversations in. I can't recall all of it, the best thing to do is hit up youtube. I'm pretty sure she said the Kirkwall Circle *was* that bad, but that it is the exception, not the rule. Rather natural consequence of the wrong system. Anytime, anywhere may occur. And Vivienne support this.
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Post by Reznore on Oct 10, 2016 16:33:59 GMT
I want to strangle Solas so... I kind of enjoy him in vanilla DAI but with Trespassers , urgh. Behind the being nice and feeling guilty I can feel the elitist.Saving slaves but deep down he really doesn't think everyone's equal or worth saving. It's not that the world of Thedas needs saving as much as Solas needs therapy.Tell me where Mythal touched you , Solas.
I'm not fond of The Iron Bull either.Voice acting is meh.He has a couple of funny moment , but mostly he's annoying and BRO.Iron Bull is a cool Bro and with Varric it felt natural for example but with IB it feels forced most of the time.
(also didn't care for advisors and Scout Harding.I don't think they were bad but they also weren't interesting.)
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Post by HYR on Oct 10, 2016 16:42:09 GMT
I'm pretty sure she said the Kirkwall Circle *was* that bad, but that it is the exception, not the rule. (Rather natural consequence of the wrong system.) nahhh.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 10, 2016 20:26:22 GMT
It was just something that she said right after you got her, maybe one or two conversations in. I can't recall all of it, the best thing to do is hit up youtube. I'm pretty sure she said the Kirkwall Circle *was* that bad, but that it is the exception, not the rule. Did she say that? I don't remember that bit. Could you give me a quick rundown of the conversation? Ideally including more detail about exactly what she said? She doesn't. She refers to Kirkwall as lamentable in banter with Cassandra. "By all means, protest Templar abuses", "some Circles do poorly", "[Templars] need better oversight", "[Mages have] more freedom and responsibility than ever before" and people try to force this Meredith 2.0 caricature on her. And to Goishen, if "Kirkwall's Circle isn't that bad" is cause enough to want someone dead, maybe it's best that Bethany dies in your DA2 playthroughs. Ah, that's more in line with what I remember from her.
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Post by Cantina on Oct 10, 2016 20:45:52 GMT
Also another thing that bothers me about Viv is how she constantly looks down on Ferelden. Bitch get out of here. I hate orleaseans and the ones pretending to be orleseans like Viv. She calls the Marquis in her party a dog lord. She thinks Morrigan is a barbarian. She makes fun of the castle you aquire in Crestwood as being good by "ferelden standards" and chuckle. Do not need more evidence against Vivienne. A person, who uses DARLING, MY DEAR words, such way as she, rarely be a good person. Every time she says those two words a Mabari puppy dies.
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Post by Catilina on Oct 10, 2016 20:48:56 GMT
Do not need more evidence against Vivienne. A person, who uses DARLING, MY DEAR words, such way as she, rarely be a good person. Every time she says those two words a Mabari puppy dies. Poor puppies! Vivienne bad! (I like the voice actor! Really help to dislike her!)
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Post by Deleted on Oct 11, 2016 7:04:08 GMT
I want to strangle Solas so... I kind of enjoy him in vanilla DAI but with Trespassers , urgh. Behind the being nice and feeling guilty I can feel the elitist.Saving slaves but deep down he really doesn't think everyone's equal or worth saving. It's not that the world of Thedas needs saving as much as Solas needs therapy.Tell me where Mythal touched you , Solas.Yes, yes he does need therapy along with Anders. They can be in a group therapy session together for extremists who's actions end up killing a bunch of people. Hawke and Lavellan force them to attend and stay in the room with them to ensure they don't try to escape. A therapy session, run by Vivi. In fact, a lot of the DA companion cast could use some therapy. Cullen and Iron Bull for PTSD, Sera for her self hatred issues, Fenris for trauma, ect.
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 11, 2016 7:51:37 GMT
I want to strangle Solas so... I kind of enjoy him in vanilla DAI but with Trespassers , urgh. Behind the being nice and feeling guilty I can feel the elitist.Saving slaves but deep down he really doesn't think everyone's equal or worth saving. It's not that the world of Thedas needs saving as much as Solas needs therapy.Tell me where Mythal touched you , Solas.Yes, yes he does need therapy along with Anders. They can be in a group therapy session together for extremists who's actions end up killing a bunch of people. Hawke and Lavellan force them to attend and stay in the room with them to ensure they don't try to escape. A therapy session, run by Vivi. In fact, a lot of the DA companion cast could use some therapy. Cullen and Iron Bull for PTSD, Sera for her self hatred issues, Fenris for trauma, ect. You can guess that Mhairi is going to die in the Joining because she doesn't have any serious issues.
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Post by fylimar on Oct 11, 2016 8:33:10 GMT
I've disliked Vivienne since the time that she told me that Kirkwall wasn't as bad as everyone says it was. Wait, what? I could put up with her snotty attitude until then. After that? Nope. She's on my shit list, and I even asked about having her killed off/excluded from the group. Strange, I never had that conversation with Viv. She told my characters, that events like in Kirkwall (including the templar abuses) can't happen again. The two characters, that downplay Kirkwall in my conversations are Cullen and Varric. Of course, in Varrics case, he could mean, Kirkwall as a whole, not just the mage situation (Varric:' And despite of what you might have heard - No, Kirkwall wasn't that bad').
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Post by riverdaleswhiteflash on Oct 11, 2016 8:50:32 GMT
I've disliked Vivienne since the time that she told me that Kirkwall wasn't as bad as everyone says it was. Wait, what? I could put up with her snotty attitude until then. After that? Nope. She's on my shit list, and I even asked about having her killed off/excluded from the group. Strange, I never had that conversation with Viv. She told my characters, that events like in Kirkwall (including the templar abuses) can't happen again. The two characters, that downplay Kirkwall in my conversations are Cullen and Varric. Of course, in Varrics case, he could mean, Kirkwall as a whole, not just the mage situation (Varric:' And despite of what you might have heard - No, Kirkwall wasn't that bad'). I'm not sure how much I'd say Cullen downplays Kirkwall. The one conversation I remember from him he noted with some disdain that Meredith was too Tranquility-happy in a conversation with my Human Rogue and my Dalish Mage. (This was when he explained why Maddox was Tranquil during the quest regarding Samson's armor.)
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Post by fylimar on Oct 11, 2016 9:12:51 GMT
Strange, I never had that conversation with Viv. She told my characters, that events like in Kirkwall (including the templar abuses) can't happen again. The two characters, that downplay Kirkwall in my conversations are Cullen and Varric. Of course, in Varrics case, he could mean, Kirkwall as a whole, not just the mage situation (Varric:' And despite of what you might have heard - No, Kirkwall wasn't that bad'). I'm not sure how much I'd say Cullen downplays Kirkwall. The one conversation I remember from him he noted with some disdain that Meredith was too Tranquility-happy in a conversation with my Human Rogue and my Dalish Mage. (This was when he explained why Maddox was Tranquil during the quest regarding Samson's armor.) That's right, but in one conversation he said, that 'Kirkwall was mostly ok' - something like that. I think it was the conversation, where you can ask him about his life amd experience so far. When you ask him about the events in Kirkwall specifically, he comes clean. TBH I think, that Cullen, who had the most insight from most DAI protagonists into the Kirkwall Circle, was traumatised during most of the events in Kirkwall. He should have been released from duty temporarily after what happened to him in the Ferelden Circle to get back on his feet, but obviously, no one does really care about post traumatic stress syndrom in Thedas. So I don't really blame him. I did, during my DA2 playthroughs, but he really seems to regret his actions in DAI and to my experience, he doesn't treat a mage inqui any different than a non mage. So he did overcome his fears at the end - a nice character developement in the end
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