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Post by Giant Ambush Beetle on Jun 2, 2020 14:13:32 GMT
It wouldn't surprise me either honestly. Games like the Witcher and Asssassins Creed has shown you can have RPGs without CCs and still do quite well and be quite popular...and I can just imagine how much money and time it costs to actually implement a proper CC. Honestly though we'll probably see a 'CC' like in games like FC, or Breakpoint, or Anthem, very watered down with a preset face but you can make certain changes to it...like hair and eye color, beard, scars...but that would be pretty much it. Yeah characters like Geralt,Alexios/Kassandra & Bayek have made CC irrelevant to a degree especially Geralt & Bayek who you could change hair/beards. The barber would have to be extremely clumsy with his shaving razor to satisfy my Character Creation needs.
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 2, 2020 16:13:22 GMT
Oh I agree that it would complicate things more and I would also be contend with human and elves (unless they make dwarves more like DAO again). I just think that a lot of people will be annoyed that they are limited, especially if the qunari are going to play a larg(er) role in the plot. Just like people would want an elf to react to Solas, people would want an opportunity to react to the war from the perspective of a qunari PC. I just don’t see how you could do a tal-vasoth background well in Tevinter without a tonne of resource to reflect it uniquely, let alone a real qunari such as a Ben hassrath agent. Just seems the obvious place to cut and they’d a solid rationale as to why they are doing it.
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Post by Felya87 on Jun 2, 2020 18:45:46 GMT
Tevinter have Qunari slaves (see Tevinter Nights). And human and elves. Since one can became a slave through economic problems, I see no reasons for a surface Dwarf to not became one too. So, I see no reason to not have Qunari or dwarves as selectable races in Tevinter. That's always if we are going for the slave background.
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thebobzilla84
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by thebobzilla84 on Jun 2, 2020 19:28:04 GMT
Tevinter have Qunari slaves (see Tevinter Nights). And human and elves. Since one can became a slave through economic problems, I see no reasons for a surface Dwarf to not became one too. So, I see no reason to not have Qunari or dwarves as selectable races in Tevinter. That's always if we are going for the slave background. Yes to this all day every day. Dwarf Lovers represent lol.
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 2, 2020 21:23:05 GMT
Tevinter have Qunari slaves (see Tevinter Nights). And human and elves. Since one can became a slave through economic problems, I see no reasons for a surface Dwarf to not became one too. So, I see no reason to not have Qunari or dwarves as selectable races in Tevinter. That's always if we are going for the slave background. I hope there’s not a slave background personally. I’d prefer less of here’s a green mark that elevates you.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 2, 2020 21:41:50 GMT
Yeah starting out as a slave is a little too Elder Scrolls for my taste.
And that doesn't cancel out how awkward it would be talking to regular Tevinter NPCs to get quests as a Qunari. They do tend to view the Qunari as the mortal enemy.
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Addictress
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: 0bsess
Posts: 741 Likes: 1,236
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Post by Addictress on Jun 2, 2020 21:46:56 GMT
The best solution is to do TRUE ORIGINS where each race = completely different setup.
The dwarf is literally travelling from Orzammar, the Qunari is literally a Ben Hassrath, the human could be a third or whatever.
No standard slave. Every race has a full origin
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Post by colfoley on Jun 2, 2020 22:04:38 GMT
The best solution is to do TRUE ORIGINS where each race = completely different setup. The dwarf is literally travelling from Orzammar, the Qunari is literally a Ben Hassrath, the human could be a third or whatever. No standard slave. Every race has a full origin honestly given this I do wonder if it wouldn't be best to make the origin as vague as possible on the bio end but then give you options via dialogue to help flesh it out.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 2, 2020 22:41:04 GMT
I struggle to see how the "best solution" is for developers to do extra work, establising backstory and motivations for *my* character. And, purely as a personal preference, I would prefer to be thrown into the main story as quickly as possible, rather than fanny about in my place of origin, killing giant rats and humming my 'I Want' song while I wait for an inciting incident to get my life all flip-turned upside-down.
Slave is a great origin. There are lots of reasons for a slave to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. It is frankly extremely too late to worry about DA being too similar to TES, and if you don't like plots where characters are bestowed with a special power, well, good news, the two previous DA games didn't have that, and neither did any TES game prior to Skyrim, so there's no good reason to assume DA4 would have it.
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Post by colfoley on Jun 2, 2020 23:09:23 GMT
I struggle to see how the "best solution" is for developers to do extra work, establising backstory and motivations for *my* character. And, purely as a personal preference, I would prefer to be thrown into the main story as quickly as possible, rather than fanny about in my place of origin, killing giant rats and humming my 'I Want' song while I wait for an inciting incident to get my life all flip-turned upside-down. Slave is a great origin. There are lots of reasons for a slave to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. It is frankly extremely too late to worry about DA being too similar to TES, and if you don't like plots where characters are bestowed with a special power, well, good news, the two previous DA games didn't have that, and neither did any TES game prior to Skyrim, so there's no good reason to assume DA4 would have it. The Origins gimmick was good once but as nice as it was in Origins...but I do can't help but wonder if it was nice for a one time thing. Remember too that Origins also introduced us to the world... I do quibble that the Warden didn't have any special powers though. Granted maybe they weren't *as* special as the Inquisitor's magic hand and more along the lines of Captain America's super soldier serum but then the whole point of Wardens is they had special abilities that made them uniquely equipped to fight the darkspawn.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 2, 2020 23:30:16 GMT
I struggle to see how the "best solution" is for developers to do extra work, establising backstory and motivations for *my* character. And, purely as a personal preference, I would prefer to be thrown into the main story as quickly as possible, rather than fanny about in my place of origin, killing giant rats and humming my 'I Want' song while I wait for an inciting incident to get my life all flip-turned upside-down. Slave is a great origin. There are lots of reasons for a slave to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. It is frankly extremely too late to worry about DA being too similar to TES, and if you don't like plots where characters are bestowed with a special power, well, good news, the two previous DA games didn't have that, and neither did any TES game prior to Skyrim, so there's no good reason to assume DA4 would have it. The Origins gimmick was good once but as nice as it was in Origins...but I do can't help but wonder if it was nice for a one time thing. Remember too that Origins also introduced us to the world... I do quibble that the Warden didn't have any special powers though. Granted maybe they weren't *as* special as the Inquisitor's magic hand and more along the lines of Captain America's super soldier serum but then the whole point of Wardens is they had special abilities that made them uniquely equipped to fight the darkspawn. Eh, personally I prefer to be "introduced to the world" on the fly. One WRPG setting is always much like the next. I have yet to see one where I was like "thank god for this establishing scene, otherwise I'd be completely lost". One of my favourite games of all time, Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King (admittedly a jrpg and not a wrpg), starts with the party already half formed, and the quest well underway. You don't receive details of who you're chasing or why until you're a decent chunk of the way in, in the form of flashback, and in a story that otherwise plays out exactly as you would expect, it works very well. As for special powers, well, yeah, it's relative. I was thinking more in terms of plot specifics. "Bestowed with unique world-saving ability" is, to my mind, a significantly different plot beat from "Joins ancient order of gifted warriors", and both are different again from their brother, "Acquires mystical item through happenstance", even though, ultimately, it all works out pretty typically.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 3, 2020 0:17:31 GMT
I struggle to see how the "best solution" is for developers to do extra work, establising backstory and motivations for *my* character. And, purely as a personal preference, I would prefer to be thrown into the main story as quickly as possible, rather than fanny about in my place of origin, killing giant rats and humming my 'I Want' song while I wait for an inciting incident to get my life all flip-turned upside-down. Slave is a great origin. There are lots of reasons for a slave to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. It is frankly extremely too late to worry about DA being too similar to TES, and if you don't like plots where characters are bestowed with a special power, well, good news, the two previous DA games didn't have that, and neither did any TES game prior to Skyrim, so there's no good reason to assume DA4 would have it. Well I guess we like different things. I've liked how the DA protagonists so far have had some connection to the world around them. The Inquisitor had this the least and I liked him the least. 'No future, no past' protagonists are kinda dull.
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Post by Sartoz on Jun 3, 2020 4:49:17 GMT
I struggle to see how the "best solution" is for developers to do extra work, establising backstory and motivations for *my* character. And, purely as a personal preference, I would prefer to be thrown into the main story as quickly as possible, rather than fanny about in my place of origin, killing giant rats and humming my 'I Want' song while I wait for an inciting incident to get my life all flip-turned upside-down. Slave is a great origin. There are lots of reasons for a slave to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. It is frankly extremely too late to worry about DA being too similar to TES, and if you don't like plots where characters are bestowed with a special power, well, good news, the two previous DA games didn't have that, and neither did any TES game prior to Skyrim, so there's no good reason to assume DA4 would have it. The Origins gimmick was good once but as nice as it was in Origins...but I do can't help but wonder if it was nice for a one time thing. Remember too that Origins also introduced us to the world... I do quibble that the Warden didn't have any special powers though. Granted maybe they weren't *as* special as the Inquisitor's magic hand and more along the lines of Captain America's super soldier serum but then the whole point of Wardens is they had special abilities that made them uniquely equipped to fight the darkspawn.
Interesting enough, Larian Studios went further with the Origins idea and I believe DA4 would benefit.
The idea? We can customize our companions from the CC screen. Not only can we choose the pre-baked ones but create our very own party members with their own backgrounds and modify their stats from a general pool of mercenaries... and the world will react to who they are/come from...
Origins gimmicky? I don't think so. It does offer re-play potential and that's not a bad thing.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 3, 2020 6:25:29 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if BW just completely removed the CC all together and instead had each race have a default Face/Name for both sex's.I don't support that but I could totally see BW pulling that. I highly doubt it. BioWare prides themselves on letting players play as themselves. Having a default face only would prevent you from making them other ethnicities.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 3, 2020 6:30:34 GMT
Still hoping the Inquisitor is the protagonist, so hoping the CC is at least DAI’s level but maybe with even more options (like ME3 added yo ME1 and 2). Plus maybe we can customize the cosmetics of the prosthetic hand.
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wright1978
N4
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Prime Posts: 8,116
Prime Likes: 2073
Posts: 1,815 Likes: 2,879
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0
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by wright1978 on Jun 3, 2020 9:13:46 GMT
The best solution is to do TRUE ORIGINS where each race = completely different setup. The dwarf is literally travelling from Orzammar, the Qunari is literally a Ben Hassrath, the human could be a third or whatever. No standard slave. Every race has a full origin If there’s going to be a Ben hassrath background it would make more sense for them to be an elf, rather than a massive conspicuous horned figure in Tevinter.
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Addictress
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquistion
Origin: 0bsess
Posts: 741 Likes: 1,236
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Post by Addictress on Jun 3, 2020 10:43:38 GMT
The Origins gimmick was good once but as nice as it was in Origins...but I do can't help but wonder if it was nice for a one time thing. Remember too that Origins also introduced us to the world... I do quibble that the Warden didn't have any special powers though. Granted maybe they weren't *as* special as the Inquisitor's magic hand and more along the lines of Captain America's super soldier serum but then the whole point of Wardens is they had special abilities that made them uniquely equipped to fight the darkspawn.
Interesting enough, Larian Studios went further with the Origins idea and I believe DA4 would benefit.
The idea? We can customize our companions from the CC screen. Not only can we choose the pre-baked ones but create our very own party members with their own backgrounds and modify their stats from a general pool of mercenaries... and the world will react to who they are/come from...
Origins gimmicky? I don't think so. It does offer re-play potential and that's not a bad thing.
Whao, what game did this?
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mousestalker
Inactive Moderator
ღ The Untitled
Just here for the cosplay
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Mousestalker
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 12,116 Likes: 30,355
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Post by mousestalker on Jun 3, 2020 12:58:43 GMT
Here's the thing. The best approach is for the developers to have a story they want to tell, decide on the themes they want and then have the character creation fir that. If what they want is to re-tell the Witcher then I probably will not play the game. But if they find a fresh approach or at least one that looks fresh after a paint job, I probably will, if it sounds interesting. I love character creators. I have spent more time creating characters in DAO than in actually playing it. But the character creator makes sense given the nature of the game. The lack of character creation options actually makes sense for DA2, but that also made the game less interesting and much less re=playable for me. DAI has a robust character creator but lacks a story that makes me want to create new characters.
I want it all. I want a character creator that allows me to play with new and different options and I want a story that makes me want to play with my characters. DAO had that. It may be that re-capturing the magic is impossible. Which will be sad.
But most importantly the character creator needs to be subject to the needs of the game.
That being said, I was hooked into DAO when they released the character creator ahead of the game. A brilliant, brilliant move on Bioware's part. And unfortunately the piece of the puzzle that is likely permanently missing now is how moddable Origins was. Modding added so much to replayability.
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 3, 2020 14:39:36 GMT
I struggle to see how the "best solution" is for developers to do extra work, establising backstory and motivations for *my* character. And, purely as a personal preference, I would prefer to be thrown into the main story as quickly as possible, rather than fanny about in my place of origin, killing giant rats and humming my 'I Want' song while I wait for an inciting incident to get my life all flip-turned upside-down. Slave is a great origin. There are lots of reasons for a slave to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. It is frankly extremely too late to worry about DA being too similar to TES, and if you don't like plots where characters are bestowed with a special power, well, good news, the two previous DA games didn't have that, and neither did any TES game prior to Skyrim, so there's no good reason to assume DA4 would have it. The Origins gimmick was good once but as nice as it was in Origins...but I do can't help but wonder if it was nice for a one time thing. Remember too that Origins also introduced us to the world... I do quibble that the Warden didn't have any special powers though. Granted maybe they weren't *as* special as the Inquisitor's magic hand and more along the lines of Captain America's super soldier serum but then the whole point of Wardens is they had special abilities that made them uniquely equipped to fight the darkspawn. But in a way the origins thing fits with the Tevinter premise of this game as well. We're in a completely different part of the continent with different rules and hierarchies. It would make sense to ease us into this especially if we're going for a new protagonist.
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Heimdall
N6
∯ Interjector in Chief
Staff Mini-Profile Theme: Heimdall
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, Anthem, Mass Effect Legendary Edition, Dragon Age The Veilguard
Origin: HeimdallX
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Post by Heimdall on Jun 3, 2020 23:47:48 GMT
I’m in favor of having two ‘origin paths’ through the prologue with unique origins per race. We could have a ‘high’ path for humans from a high ranking Tevinter family and a dwarf of the ambassadoria. A ‘low’ path for a Qunari slave to an Altus family and an elven liberati (maybe an agent of the siccari?). Both paths would be basically alternate perspectives on the same inciting incident. That’s how I would like to kick off DA4 and my hope is that it would be a less resource intensive way of handling the Origins concept by letting the devs reuse content between paths.
Ideally, I’d like each of those racial origins to have a subplot quest line in the game related to their personal history. The Qunari might explore the circumstances of their being captured from a qunari settlement on Seheron as a child, for example.
All probably a pipe dream, but that’s the ideal DA4 in my head.
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Post by alanc9 on Jun 4, 2020 0:11:09 GMT
"Slave" doesn't have to be a background. It can just be a cover story.
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Post by xerrai on Jun 4, 2020 1:37:46 GMT
I wouldn't be surprised if BW just completely removed the CC all together and instead had each race have a default Face/Name for both sex's.I don't support that but I could totally see BW pulling that. I highly doubt it. BioWare prides themselves on letting players play as themselves. Having a default face only would prevent you from making them other ethnicities. I had similar thoughts. Although....I wouldn't put is past them to limit our race options. Hopefully they won't take it as far as they did with DA2's human only option, but I can easily see them cutting out dwarves and/or qunari as race options for the next game. Even if they know it will peeve a significant portion of the fanbase.
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Post by Absafraginlootly on Jun 4, 2020 2:37:50 GMT
I mean we've seen qunari in the slave markets up for sale in the comics right?
Presumably those slaves have to be allowed to go about their jobs unmolested or else they have no value. So presumably they aren't so long as they're wearing the suitable slave adornments.
Most qunari slaves are probably in positions that are watched by guards since they're captured enemies, and tal vashoth probably aren't anymore trusted what with the potential for Ben hassrath infiltrators.
But I'm sure any slave bearing the mark of an Altus is allowed freedom of movement to carry out their tasks (and it wouldn't surprise me if more than one of them had made breaking an oxman into a trophy slave a goal). Maevaris Tilani, Dorian Pavus, or Francesca Invidus could give the pc their symbol of ownership to allow the pc freedom of movement.
My point is if the devs wants the ex-inquisitor vashoth or a new qunari/vashoth pc to walk around Tevinter they can do it.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 4, 2020 3:09:01 GMT
I mean we've seen qunari in the slave markets up for sale in the comics right? Presumably those slaves have to be allowed to go about their jobs unmolested or else they have no value. So presumably they aren't so long as they're wearing the suitable slave adornments. Most qunari slaves are probably in positions that are watched by guards since they're captured enemies, and tal vashoth probably aren't anymore trusted what with the potential for Ben hassrath infiltrators. But I'm sure any slave bearing the mark of an Altus is allowed freedom of movement to carry out their tasks (and it wouldn't surprise me if more than one of them had made breaking an oxman into a trophy slave a goal). Maevaris Tilani, Dorian Pavus, or Francesca Invidus could give the pc their symbol of ownership to allow the pc freedom of movement. My point is if the devs wants the ex-inquisitor vashoth or a new qunari/vashoth pc to walk around Tevinter they can do it. Yeah, it would be trivial to justify it in the narrative. A single line of dialogue is all you need. They justify Leliana's recurring appearances with less.
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Oct 31, 2020 23:57:02 GMT
8,073
pessimistpanda
3,804
Apr 18, 2017 15:57:34 GMT
April 2017
pessimistpanda
Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jun 4, 2020 4:12:10 GMT
I struggle to see how the "best solution" is for developers to do extra work, establising backstory and motivations for *my* character. And, purely as a personal preference, I would prefer to be thrown into the main story as quickly as possible, rather than fanny about in my place of origin, killing giant rats and humming my 'I Want' song while I wait for an inciting incident to get my life all flip-turned upside-down. Slave is a great origin. There are lots of reasons for a slave to be in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time. It is frankly extremely too late to worry about DA being too similar to TES, and if you don't like plots where characters are bestowed with a special power, well, good news, the two previous DA games didn't have that, and neither did any TES game prior to Skyrim, so there's no good reason to assume DA4 would have it. Well I guess we like different things. I've liked how the DA protagonists so far have had some connection to the world around them. The Inquisitor had this the least and I liked him the least. 'No future, no past' protagonists are kinda dull. To be clear, I'm not advocating for a protagonist who has no connection to the world around them, I'm simply saying I prefer stories that trust me to hit the ground running, and figure out the world and the plot through context clues, rather than through a "prologue" that exists to dump a lot of info on me at once, and makes the opening act of the game drag very painfully. There are other ways it can be done. In... ugh... *Witcher 3*, you can make world-altering choices early on, when you are interrogated about the events of previous games, even if you haven't played the previous games. Instead of building your character, being told your history, and then starting the narrative, you can build your character through the opening of the narrative. Say DA4 opens with you waking up in a cell (I know, I know, TES did it, but so what?). You pick your race and customise your appearance, then someone comes to collect you, you're fresh meat for the Tevinter arena. You're questioned about your history and combat skills, the questions can differ to accomodate for what makes sense in your race choice, eg humans might say "I was trained in magic at the xyz circle", dalish elves might say "I was first of my clan", this establishes your Class. It could even set up the flag for a relevant quest later on, not to mention the flags for specialisation quests. Then you get to choose your weapon (why should class limit weapon choice?). This opens up your chosen weapon skills tree. You should probably be allowed to change this later. You have your test match, you win handily, you're going to the arena tomorrow, for a real fight. Cut to the next day, being carted with a few other new gladiators, one is talkative "so what are you in for?" "I was sold" >who by? >what did you do before? "I was kidnapped" > when? Is your family/clan alive? Do you want to find them? "I was sentenced" >theft/murder? >falsely accused? > want revenge? These questions set up the flags for your personal sidequest, or even, potentially, alter the main story (because the protagonist should always be linked to the main story). Sure, it's still an infodump prologue, but YOU'RE doing the dumping, you're building your character and making important story decisions from the start, opening up some quest chains and closing off others. And the game could continue to ask YOU who you are and where you belong in the world throughout, rather than making those decisions for you. That's just one option. Another would be a playable flashback sequence, possibly in a fade sequence, based on the backstory BioWare gives you at the start. I'm sure there are other ways I could think of, given time.
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