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Post by Gwydden on Aug 4, 2021 13:08:48 GMT
Well, the show looks pretty, at least:
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Post by Heimdall on Aug 4, 2021 13:55:17 GMT
And I can see the Two Trees I did not expect to feel so excited by that
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 4, 2021 16:44:55 GMT
Well, when I heard that they were making a "Lord of the Rings" series, my first reaction was "that's not a good idea" because the movies are pretty much perfect IMO. But when I learned that they were taking content from the Silmarilion, I got very excited. I think that's a wonderful idea and I am now very much looking forward to it. The teaser image looks great IMO!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 13:54:29 GMT
Well, when I heard that they were making a "Lord of the Rings" series, my first reaction was "that's not a good idea" because the movies are pretty much perfect IMO. But when I learned that they were taking content from the Silmarilion, I got very excited. I think that's a wonderful idea and I am now very much looking forward to it. The teaser image looks great IMO! Hehe, I had the same reaction for the opposite reasons I think the movies are awful. I much prefer this being in a less well-defined setting, before the fall of Numenor. Much easier to not butcher things for consistency/simplicity as they did far too many times in the films.
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 5, 2021 15:09:02 GMT
As someone who's read The Silmarillion at fifteen and found myself absolutely enthralled with the myth J.R.R Tolkien created I am wary of this with the awful Hobbit adaptation still fresh in my mind.
But it's pretty much a fact in my mind that Peter Jackson's adaption of LOTR's as good as it gets.
And the changes people take issue with I more often than not consider to be outright improvements to the story, especially the organisation of the main dual narratives pacing in the Two Towers and Return of the King, the forging of Andúril, and chiefly Aragorn and Faramir being dynamic characters instead of static ones.
I do miss the barrow downs and the more nuanced version of Denethor but it's a small price to pay for what's largely perfection.
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 5, 2021 15:35:56 GMT
Well, when I heard that they were making a "Lord of the Rings" series, my first reaction was "that's not a good idea" because the movies are pretty much perfect IMO. But when I learned that they were taking content from the Silmarilion, I got very excited. I think that's a wonderful idea and I am now very much looking forward to it. The teaser image looks great IMO! Hehe, I had the same reaction for the opposite reasons I think the movies are awful. I much prefer this being in a less well-defined setting, before the fall of Numenor. Much easier to not butcher things for consistency/simplicity as they did far too many times in the films. Yea, I kinda get that.
For me it was different though. I had read the book 3 or 4 times as a kid/teenager long before the movies came out. But the way I see it, a book is a book and a movie is a movie. IMO PJ did a perfect job of still creating movies that capture a lot of the essence of the book but work as movies as well. Quite the achievement if you ask me. The Hobbit was different then but that's a whole other story.
As for the series, I only read the Silmarilion once, a long time ago. Barely remember any of it. So I am really looking forward to the series as I can kinda rediscover all that stuff.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 15:52:12 GMT
Hehe, I had the same reaction for the opposite reasons I think the movies are awful. I much prefer this being in a less well-defined setting, before the fall of Numenor. Much easier to not butcher things for consistency/simplicity as they did far too many times in the films. Yea, I kinda get that.
For me it was different though. I had read the book 3 or 4 times as a kid/teenager long before the movies came out. But the way I see it, a book is a book and a movie is a movie. IMO PJ did a perfect job of still creating movies that capture a lot of the essence of the book but work as movies as well. Quite the achievement if you ask me. The Hobbit was different then but that a whole other story.
As for the series, I only read the Silmarilion once, a long time ago. Barely remember any of it. So I am really looking forward to the series as I can kinda rediscover all that stuff.
You'll need to revisit the Silmarillion, at least briefly, before watching the show. Why? It is not a linear telling, it jumps around a lot, and goes deep into several characters, probably way too deep in the case of Old Tom and the River Daughter, but for hardcore fans it is worth it. The span of time the book covers is massive, it would be nigh impossible to make in film; a trilogy would never be enough time to tell the tale. So, TV is a better fit in some regards. Feanor... what an asshole.
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Post by AnDromedary on Aug 5, 2021 15:57:23 GMT
Yea, I kinda get that.
For me it was different though. I had read the book 3 or 4 times as a kid/teenager long before the movies came out. But the way I see it, a book is a book and a movie is a movie. IMO PJ did a perfect job of still creating movies that capture a lot of the essence of the book but work as movies as well. Quite the achievement if you ask me. The Hobbit was different then but that a whole other story.
As for the series, I only read the Silmarilion once, a long time ago. Barely remember any of it. So I am really looking forward to the series as I can kinda rediscover all that stuff.
You'll need to revisit the Silmarillion, at least briefly, before watching the show. Why? It is not a linear telling, it jumps around a lot, and goes deep into several characters, probably way too deep in the case of Old Tom and the River Daughter, but for hardcore fans it is worth it. The span of time the book covers is massive, it would be nigh impossible to make in film; a trilogy would never be enough time to tell the tale. So, TV is a better fit in some regards. Feanor... what an asshole. Yea, I do remember that much.
I think I am gonna watch the show first though, just to get a good sense on how well it works if you are not already that familiar with the background material (which, let's face it, is gonna be most of the audience). If I like it, I might go back to the book for a second watching or something like that. We'll see.
BTW, Lot's of cool SciFi and fantasy stuff coming out in the coming year. What a time to be a fan of that sort of stuff.
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 5, 2021 16:05:07 GMT
Tolkien's legendarium makes for some of my favorite books and Peter Jackson's trilogy for some of my favorite movies, but they're quite different. Not so much plot-wise but more along the lines of structure, pacing, tone, and characterization. It's not surprising Christopher Tolkien didn't care for them.
In fact, what puts me strangely at ease regarding adaptations of Tolkien is the thought that he would probably have hated them all. Despite some youthful comments about creating a mythology to which others could also contribute, in his later years the professor was extremely protective and punctilious of his stuff and balked at anyone trying to tamper with it.
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Post by cribbian on Aug 5, 2021 17:00:24 GMT
Wait, it's going to be silmarillion? Didn't they say before that it was going to take place during the second age?
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Aug 5, 2021 17:51:23 GMT
I'll give this a chance but as of yet I have no hope for it, with the last bit of news I've read about the show I don't trust Amazon to do it any justice, Jeff Bezos asked them to give him GOT....and that troubles me. As far as I understand the Tolkien estate is only allowing Amazon to use what's in the second age and from the different articles I've read it sounds like it's leaning heavily into fan fiction territory. To be quite honest, as interesting as Númenor and the second age is, I'm also a much bigger fan of the first age and earlier but at least the picture teaser is pretty. This isn't the only article I've read on it, maybe I'll find the others when I have more time. www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/09/amazons-new-lord-of-the-rings-cannot-use-much-of-tolkiens-plotAlso Fëanor is amazing in every way, fight me. @illusivechad
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 18:11:51 GMT
I'll give this a chance but as of yet I have no hope for it, with the last bit of news I've read about the show I don't trust Amazon to do it any justice, Jeff Bezos asked them to give him GOT....and that troubles me. As far as I understand the Tolkien estate is only allowing Amazon to use what's in the second age and from the different articles I've read it sounds like it's leaning heavily into fan fiction territory. To be quite honest, as interesting as Númenor and the second age is, I'm also a much bigger fan of the first age and earlier but at least the picture teaser is pretty. This isn't the only article I've read on it, maybe I'll find the others when I have more time. www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/09/amazons-new-lord-of-the-rings-cannot-use-much-of-tolkiens-plotAlso Fëanor is amazing in every way, fight me. @illusivechad Don't get me wrong, I remain in awe of him and he has some redeeming moments. But the hubris and the ego... he is responsible for how things went nearly as much as Melkor. He is a brilliantly flawed character, and I lovehate him all day. But he is an asshole, ding ding round 1
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 5, 2021 18:27:37 GMT
I'll give this a chance but as of yet I have no hope for it, with the last bit of news I've read about the show I don't trust Amazon to do it any justice, Jeff Bezos asked them to give him GOT....and that troubles me. As far as I understand the Tolkien estate is only allowing Amazon to use what's in the second age and from the different articles I've read it sounds like it's leaning heavily into fan fiction territory. To be quite honest, as interesting as Númenor and the second age is, I'm also a much bigger fan of the first age and earlier but at least the picture teaser is pretty. I won't be terribly broken up if it turns out terrible. The books are not going anywhere and you need to risk awful adaptations to get good ones. I do have some hope they will do something interesting with the premise—a fool's hope, one might say
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Aug 5, 2021 18:46:26 GMT
I'll give this a chance but as of yet I have no hope for it, with the last bit of news I've read about the show I don't trust Amazon to do it any justice, Jeff Bezos asked them to give him GOT....and that troubles me. As far as I understand the Tolkien estate is only allowing Amazon to use what's in the second age and from the different articles I've read it sounds like it's leaning heavily into fan fiction territory. To be quite honest, as interesting as Númenor and the second age is, I'm also a much bigger fan of the first age and earlier but at least the picture teaser is pretty. This isn't the only article I've read on it, maybe I'll find the others when I have more time. www.theguardian.com/books/2019/aug/09/amazons-new-lord-of-the-rings-cannot-use-much-of-tolkiens-plotAlso Fëanor is amazing in every way, fight me. @illusivechad Don't get me wrong, I remain in awe of him and he has some redeeming moments. But the hubris and the ego... he is responsible for how things went nearly as much as Melkor. He is a brilliantly flawed character, and I lovehate him all day. But he is an asshole, ding ding round 1 Oh I agree that he's done asshole things but I also feel like he gets way too much blame sometimes. There was so much that led to the tragedy in Arda marred making a perfect storm of shit. The Valor releasing Melkor, letting him wander and sow discord among the elves, Fëanor's mother giving up early and scaring his fëa, to Olwë himself being a bit of a fair weather friend with the Noldor imo. Actually I believe Ulmo opposed summoning the elves to Aman from the beginning and I agree with that view, wise dude Ulmo, one of the few Vala I actually liked. I'll admit I'm a tiny bit biased because I've always loved how interesting Fëanor's character was, especially with such a short part of the book. I would've liked to see him live a little longer and have a smackdown with Fingolfin. Thanks for reading my rambles.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 5, 2021 19:03:09 GMT
Don't get me wrong, I remain in awe of him and he has some redeeming moments. But the hubris and the ego... he is responsible for how things went nearly as much as Melkor. He is a brilliantly flawed character, and I lovehate him all day. But he is an asshole, ding ding round 1 Oh I agree that he's done asshole things but I also feel like he gets way too much blame sometimes. There was so much that led to the tragedy in Arda marred making a perfect storm of shit. The Valor releasing Melkor, letting him wander and sow discord among the elves, Fëanor's mother giving up early and scaring his fëa, to Olwë himself being a bit of a fair weather friend with the Noldor imo. Actually I believe Ulmo opposed summoning the elves to Aman from the beginning and I agree with that view, wise dude Ulmo, one of the few Vala I actually liked. I'll admit I'm a tiny bit biased because I've always loved how interesting Fëanor's character was, especially with such a short part of the book. I would've liked to see him live a little longer and have a smackdown with Fingolfin. Thanks for reading my rambles. It is a pleasure to read them
I need to read all of it again, it has been too long and there are more broken bits of memory than there are working ones at this point. Need to defrag the hard drive and install a new read, hopefully I can ramble on with you then in greater detail.
I just always think to the unintended collateral damage down the road that it all caused. Beren, poor Beren, and Luthien Tinuviel. Despite my damaged arm, I still have my arm, hand included. Hand works just fine actually, and I am glad to have both of mine!!
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Post by FiendishlyInventive on Aug 5, 2021 20:00:15 GMT
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Post by Gwydden on Aug 6, 2021 1:20:38 GMT
I came across this video, which is pretty relevant in light of what I said earlier: Some commentary below the cut, which got longer than I anticipated: The final point there is interesting because despite Tolkien's massive influence on the fantasy genre, a lot of features absent from his work that later became tropes are often retroactively attributed to him, rather than having a basis in fact. If you actually look at Tolkien's fiction, he never says that elves have pointy ears or lack beards. There's a couple scribbles that get used as rather flimsy evidence of the former but which doesn't matter anyway as LotR's original audience wouldn't have had access to Tolkien's notes and letters. And at least one elf in LotR is explicitly described as having a beard.
Dwarves are interesting as well. The rowdy, hard-drinking Scottish dwarves are not Tolkien at all. Not a single dwarf in his works fits that mold. That trope actually appears to come from Poul Anderson's Three Heart and Three Lions (1961) by way of D&D. And yet, it's so pervasive that in the movies they turned Gimli into basically that, though it is at odds with his character in the books.
Other things that are not Tolkienian but get blamed on him anyway: multivolume sagas (LotR is a standalone novel the publishers chose to print as a trilogy), farmboy protagonists (not a single one of Tolkien's protagonists is a farmboy), chosen ones (also no such thing), magic systems (ugh), happy endings (LotR's is rather bittersweet), and I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting.
Anyway, forgive the lengthy and random musings. I'm very interested in genre history and I think the flipside of "Tolkien didn't invent fantasy" is "so-called Tolkien Clones don't actually resemble him very much at all."
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Post by Iakus on Aug 8, 2021 17:29:27 GMT
Well, the show looks pretty, at least:
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Post by q5tyhj on Aug 12, 2021 0:42:05 GMT
Well, when I heard that they were making a "Lord of the Rings" series, my first reaction was "that's not a good idea" because the movies are pretty much perfect IMO. But when I learned that they were taking content from the Silmarilion, I got very excited. I think that's a wonderful idea and I am now very much looking forward to it. The teaser image looks great IMO! I have to admit, I had basically the opposite reaction. The Silmarillion is probably my favorite part of the Tolkien/Middle-Earth stuff, and after that absurd cash-grab dumpster fire that they made out of the Hobbit... I'm not especially optimistic, I'm afraid they're going to ruin yet another fantasy classic. Would love to be proven wrong tho, and the original LotR film trilogy was very solid.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 11, 2021 13:12:57 GMT
Well, when I heard that they were making a "Lord of the Rings" series, my first reaction was "that's not a good idea" because the movies are pretty much perfect IMO. But when I learned that they were taking content from the Silmarilion, I got very excited. I think that's a wonderful idea and I am now very much looking forward to it. The teaser image looks great IMO! I have to admit, I had basically the opposite reaction. The Silmarillion is probably my favorite part of the Tolkien/Middle-Earth stuff, and after that absurd cash-grab dumpster fire that they made out of the Hobbit... I'm not especially optimistic, I'm afraid they're going to ruin yet another fantasy classic. Would love to be proven wrong tho, and the original LotR film trilogy was very solid. What has me especially convinced that this will be a travesty of Tolkien's legacy is the fact that the show has hired " intimacy coordinators" to help in the direction of certain scenes. Because that's how you pay respect to the work of a person who's work; based heavily on Christian mythology & ideals mind you; as well as established the whole genre of fantasy as we know it is by throwing tits and ass on the screen like an HBO or Netflix adaptation
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 11, 2021 15:49:25 GMT
I have to admit, I had basically the opposite reaction. The Silmarillion is probably my favorite part of the Tolkien/Middle-Earth stuff, and after that absurd cash-grab dumpster fire that they made out of the Hobbit... I'm not especially optimistic, I'm afraid they're going to ruin yet another fantasy classic. Would love to be proven wrong tho, and the original LotR film trilogy was very solid. What has me especially convinced that this will be a travesty of Tolkien's legacy is the fact that the show has hired " intimacy coordinators" to help in the direction of certain scenes. Because that's how you pay respect to the work of a person who's work; based heavily on Christian mythology & ideals mind you; as well as established the whole genre of fantasy as we know it is by throwing tits and ass on the screen like an HBO or Netflix adaptation Yeah... that's a bad sign. Guess they felt that the Beren and Luthien story needs an explicit sex scene, because, you know, Game of Thrones or something. What a fucking joke.
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Post by Vortex13 on Oct 11, 2021 15:58:33 GMT
What has me especially convinced that this will be a travesty of Tolkien's legacy is the fact that the show has hired " intimacy coordinators" to help in the direction of certain scenes. Because that's how you pay respect to the work of a person who's work; based heavily on Christian mythology & ideals mind you; as well as established the whole genre of fantasy as we know it is by throwing tits and ass on the screen like an HBO or Netflix adaptation Yeah... that's a bad sign. Guess they felt that the Beren and Luthien story needs an explicit sex scene, because, you know, Game of Thrones or something. What a fucking joke. Yeah love or hate the movies but it's obvious that they were incredibly popular and you know what none of those films had? Gratuitous nudity for the sake of seeing flesh on the screen. It's pathetic to see how dumbed down film writers have become over the years to the point that naked bodies have to be shoved on the screen in order to get the audience to ignore the shoddy script.
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Post by q5tyhj on Oct 11, 2021 16:02:10 GMT
Yeah... that's a bad sign. Guess they felt that the Beren and Luthien story needs an explicit sex scene, because, you know, Game of Thrones or something. What a fucking joke. Yeah love or hate the movies but it's obvious that they were incredibly popular and you know what none of those films had? Gratuitous nudity for the sake of seeing flesh on the screen. It's pathetic to see how dumbed down film writers have become over the years to the point that naked bodies have to be shoved on the screen in order to get the audience to ignore the shoddy script. Yeah I mean the additional Arwen/Aragorn stuff they added in the original trilogy was slightly eye-rolling, but predictable (they feel like every major movie release has to have a romance arc) and fairly minor and innocuous, but explicit sex scenes in the Silmarillion? C'mon, that's fucking ridiculous. And after the ludicrous cash-grab that they turned the Hobbit into, I don't have much confidence in the amount of oversight/control the Tolkien estate is able to exercise over these adaptations. Just depressing, these people have no shame whatsoever.
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Post by smilesja on Oct 18, 2021 21:24:59 GMT
I have to admit, I had basically the opposite reaction. The Silmarillion is probably my favorite part of the Tolkien/Middle-Earth stuff, and after that absurd cash-grab dumpster fire that they made out of the Hobbit... I'm not especially optimistic, I'm afraid they're going to ruin yet another fantasy classic. Would love to be proven wrong tho, and the original LotR film trilogy was very solid. What has me especially convinced that this will be a travesty of Tolkien's legacy is the fact that the show has hired " intimacy coordinators" to help in the direction of certain scenes. Because that's how you pay respect to the work of a person who's work; based heavily on Christian mythology & ideals mind you; as well as established the whole genre of fantasy as we know it is by throwing tits and ass on the screen like an HBO or Netflix adaptation And to think recently we've been told that "boobs are bad" but they're going to use these intimacy coordinators on a work that draws heavily on Christian morals. This is LOTR not ASOIAF.
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