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Post by Iakus on Feb 17, 2022 16:17:45 GMT
Also it has been pointed out the the symbol on Galadriel's armor resembles the Star of Feanor. If that's true, that's a hilariously bad lore fail.
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 17, 2022 17:35:20 GMT
If you want to split hairs, Gandalf isn't really a wizard either. He's a n angel/minor deity that has taken the form of an old man He is a wizard in the sense that he is a learned sage (the words wizard and wise are cognates, as Tolkien would have known), not the D&D kind. Which is exactly my point: magic in Tolkien tends to be subtler than D&D spells, so it doesn't follow that a sorcerer wouldn't need a conventional weapon, as evidenced not just by Gandalf but the Witch-king as well. We know Galadriel was involved in the siege of Dol Guldur, in that she "threw down its walls and laid bare its pits." That's rather vague. Some people take this to mean that she personally did it, which would only be possible by magic. But as I mentioned earlier, magic in Tolkien is rarely that bombastic. EDIT: I would like to say that at this point, I'm continuing the discussion less because of the show and more because of its own sake. Unbridled Tolkien geekery is always fun EDIT 2: In the interest of fair and honest discussion, I just remembered this passage from The Silmarillion: "Then Luthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and captives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moonlight, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron." Emphasis added. The similar wording doesn't strike me as accidental, so you've convinced me that Galadriel used magic to destroy Dol Guldur without even trying Impressive of Galadriel as well, since Luthien is pretty much a demigoddess and performs the grandest magical feats of any non-Ainu.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Feb 17, 2022 17:55:24 GMT
If you want to split hairs, Gandalf isn't really a wizard either. He's a n angel/minor deity that has taken the form of an old man EDIT 2: In the interest of fair and honest discussion, I just remembered this passage from The Silmarillion: "Then Luthien stood upon the bridge, and declared her power: and the spell was loosed that bound stone to stone, and the gates were thrown down, and the walls opened, and the pits laid bare; and many thralls and captives came forth in wonder and dismay, shielding their eyes against the pale moonlight, for they had lain long in the darkness of Sauron." Emphasis added. The similar wording doesn't strike me as accidental, so you've convinced me that Galadriel used magic to destroy Dol Guldur without even trying Impressive of Galadriel as well, since Luthien is pretty much a demigoddess and performs the grandest magical feats of any non-Ainu. Glad you brought this up, I was always reminded of the scene you mentioned with Luthien when thinking of Galadriel throwing down the walls of Dol Goldur, or even Galadriel's brother Finrod's epic song battle with Sauron. That would be one interesting looking fight.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2022 18:08:35 GMT
Also it has been pointed out the the symbol on Galadriel's armor resembles the Star of Feanor. If that's true, that's a hilariously bad lore fail. Yeah, people keep trying to defend the design by saying Finarfin uses an eight sided star too, but Amazon's design looks more like Feanor's symbol than Finfin's. Feanor: Finarfin:
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Post by AnDromedary on Feb 18, 2022 19:52:45 GMT
Also it has been pointed out the the symbol on Galadriel's armor resembles the Star of Feanor. If that's true, that's a hilariously bad lore fail. Yeah, people keep trying to defend the design by saying Finarfin uses an eight sided star too, but Amazon's design looks more like Feanor's symbol than Finfin's. Still better than the Nilfguard armor.
Isn't it possible that Celebrimbor crafted some armor for Galadriel at some point? Maybe he likes to put the star of his house on the stuff he makes.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 18, 2022 21:45:40 GMT
Yeah, people keep trying to defend the design by saying Finarfin uses an eight sided star too, but Amazon's design looks more like Feanor's symbol than Finfin's. Still better than the Nilfguard armor.
Isn't it possible that Celebrimbor crafted some armor for Galadriel at some point? Maybe he likes to put the star of his house on the stuff he makes. The legendary ballsack armor. A frustrated Hissrich had fiddlesticks on the brain. I think Galadriel would sooner fight naked than wear armor sporting Feanor's heraldry, and Celembrimbor knowing her would have enough foresight to inscribe Finarfin's star on it instead.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 19, 2022 0:58:01 GMT
Yeah, people keep trying to defend the design by saying Finarfin uses an eight sided star too, but Amazon's design looks more like Feanor's symbol than Finfin's. Still better than the Nilfguard armor.
Isn't it possible that Celebrimbor crafted some armor for Galadriel at some point? Maybe he likes to put the star of his house on the stuff he makes. For Fëanor beheld the hair of Galadriel with wonder and delight. He begged three times for a tress, but Galadriel would not give him even one hair. These two kinsfolk, the greatest of the Eldar of Valinor, were unfriends forever.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 19, 2022 6:04:31 GMT
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Post by smilesja on Feb 19, 2022 18:16:46 GMT
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Post by Gwydden on Feb 19, 2022 19:06:02 GMT
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Feb 20, 2022 20:14:36 GMT
Gandalf is not a warrior, he is a wizard. He doesn't need a sw... oh, wait If you want to split hairs, Gandalf isn't really a wizard either. He's a n angel/minor deity that has taken the form of an old man he's a wizard as in "a new angel form that greatly limits angel's powers". In his wizard appearance he's weaker than his original self so it's fair to simply describe him as a wizard without invoking his maia origin (he doesn't use maia powers anyway and we don't even know whether he can use them while he's in a body of an old man). Yes, Gandalf is surprisingly strong for an old man and he's definitely more potent than an average human. But he's still can be killed, he's still highly vulnerable to normal weapons and thus he has to carry a sword. Tolkien's world is a low-magic world and pretty much everyone has to carry weapons when they go to war, wizards included. most of us simply work on our own preconceptions on what character A would do or wouldn't do because Tolkien wasn't really that great at describing minor characters (and Galadhriel or Elrond are minor characters) and because Tolkien haven't left any detailed description of most characters' deeds. for example, we know that Lothlorien went to war against Dol Guldur in the end of the 3rd Age. We know that Galadhriel participated in that war. We know basically nothing else so we're free to make some assumptions about that war. Would it be blasphemous to think that she wore some armor during that trip to DG? Would it be blasphemous to think that she actually participated in some battles? No, because Tolkien never really said anything against that. And the same can be applied to the events and people of the 2nd Age because we know even less about them. The "fanfiction" accusation is meaningless at this point, any story about 2nd Age would be fanfiction given how little we know about that.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 20, 2022 22:17:28 GMT
If you want to split hairs, Gandalf isn't really a wizard either. He's a n angel/minor deity that has taken the form of an old man he's a wizard as in "a new angel form that greatly limits angel's powers". In his wizard appearance he's weaker than his original self so it's fair to simply describe him as a wizard without invoking his maia origin (he doesn't use maia powers anyway and we don't even know whether he can use them while he's in a body of an old man). Yes, Gandalf is surprisingly strong for an old man and he's definitely more potent than an average human. But he's still can be killed, he's still highly vulnerable to normal weapons and thus he has to carry a sword. Tolkien's world is a low-magic world and pretty much everyone has to carry weapons when they go to war, wizards included. most of us simply work on our own preconceptions on what character A would do or wouldn't do because Tolkien wasn't really that great at describing minor characters (and Galadhriel or Elrond are minor characters) and because Tolkien haven't left any detailed description of most characters' deeds. for example, we know that Lothlorien went to war against Dol Guldur in the end of the 3rd Age. We know that Galadhriel participated in that war. We know basically nothing else so we're free to make some assumptions about that war. Would it be blasphemous to think that she wore some armor during that trip to DG? Would it be blasphemous to think that she actually participated in some battles? No, because Tolkien never really said anything against that. And the same can be applied to the events and people of the 2nd Age because we know even less about them. The "fanfiction" accusation is meaningless at this point, any story about 2nd Age would be fanfiction given how little we know about that. Gandalf is FAR more powerful than any mortal Man. Any constraints on his power are his vow to not use them in direct contention against Sauron or his minions. But given he SOLOED A BALROG, a feat only matched by other Maiar/Valar or the most renowned of Noldor warriors of the First Age, he is a lot more than "a conjurer of cheap tricks" Yes, Tolkien left a lot of things vague. But Galadriel (and Elrond, for that matter) are described as being famous for their wisdom, lore mastery, healing skills, NOT their swordsmanship. The famous warriors have signature weapons, often with names of their own. Or are known for slaying this or that nasty creature. Or participated in some huge battle, not simply "participated in a war" Middle Earth reflects a time when heroes of renown have tales told of their prowess. Such as Hurin at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Luthien Tinuviel and her rescue of Beren from Morgoth's prison. Tuor at the Fall of Gondolin. What battles did Galadriel fight in? What enemies did she defeat? Not to trivialize her own deeds, for she was a wise and able leader. But there is NO evidence she was a warrior.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 20, 2022 22:53:33 GMT
Seems like a dumpster fire in similar vein to unpratchett version of night watch. Don’t have the creativity to come up with their own verse so have to piggyback off the name of something else while distorting beyond recognition
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Feb 21, 2022 22:02:26 GMT
Gandalf is FAR more powerful than any mortal Man. Any constraints on his power are his vow to not use them in direct contention against Sauron or his minions. But given he SOLOED A BALROG, a feat only matched by other Maiar/Valar or the most renowned of Noldor warriors of the First Age, he is a lot more than "a conjurer of cheap tricks" i said somewhere he's a conjuerer of cheap tricks or that he's merely a human? I only said that no matter how powerful in magic he is, he still needs a sword. Because in Tolkien world there's no clear distinction between "classes" D&D-style. You go to war, you grab a sword, it is THAT simple. Any logic a-la "Galadriel is a sorceress so she can't have heavy armor and a sword" reeks of modern RPG experience and is fundamentally flawed and less-truetolkien than any Hollywood logic. Gandalf's also definitely constrained in his mortal body, otherwise he wouldn't throw pinecones at the orcs while sitting on a tree. also, he "soloed" a balrog while dying in the process. Yes, Tolkien left a lot of things vague. But Galadriel (and Elrond, for that matter) are descried as being famous for their wisdom, lore mastery, healing skills, NOT their swordsmanship. The famous warriors have signature weapons, often with names of their own. Or are known for slaying this or that nasty creature. Or participated in some huge battle, not simply "participated in a war" Middle Earth reflects a time when heroes of renown have tales told of their prowess. Such as Hurin at the Battle of Unnumbered Tears. Luthien Tinuviel and her rescue of Beren from Morgoth's prison. Tuor at the Fall of Gondolin. What battles did Galadriel fight in? What enemies did she defeat? Not to trivialize her own deeds, for she was a wise and able leader. But there is NO evidence she was a warrior. Galadriel is not only described as wise and gentle. She's also described as fierce and proud. We know that she's the former in the 3rd Age and the latter in the 1st Age. We know nothing what kind of a person she was in the 2nd Age. to wear armor and wield a sword you need to be famous? What kind of logic is that? Galadriel can't simply, y'know, put armor so as to not get hit by an orc arrow? She can't simply take a sword like Gandalf did? besides, even if Galadriel really is a great warrior in this new show, she's neither a major nor even a support character in the Tolkienverse. She is a minor character. She literally has like 10 lines in the whole LOTR and maybe one A4 list of description and actions in both the LOTR and the Silm. Changing her somewhat (or Elrond or Arwen or Gil Galad) is fine.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 22, 2022 14:14:29 GMT
Because in Tolkien world there's no clear distinction between "classes" D&D-style. This is true but there do seem hints that you don't necessarily need to wield a sword to fight a battle. The female elves do seem to be depicted as utilising something other than pure martial skills. For example, Luthien's greatest power was that of her voice when raised in song but she also had other enchantments she could use, including the ability to shapeshift, but when assailed directly she needed the hound, Huan, to protect her. So it would be fair to say that female elves use the power of their minds rather than physical prowess in battle. Galadriel's power does seem to manifest as the ability to protect from harm and provide inspiration rather than strength of arms. In the last alliance of Elves and Men against Sauron at the end of the second, the elven leader is Gil-galad and Elrond is also part of the elven army but there is no mention of Galadriel. She is described as being one of three greatest of the eldar in Middle Earth and that is why she received one of the elven rings. Surely, if she was a renowned warrior and leader of elves, she would have been part of the united forces? Unless, of course, it was felt that it was more important that she should stay out of the battle and reserve her power to heal and restore in the aftermath. As you say, though, the precedent was set in the LoTR films by having Arwen rescue Frodo from the Black Riders instead of Glorfindel and in some ways she did become combined with the persona of her two brothers, who don't appear at all in the films. In the original book, having lost his wife to the orcs, it is hardly likely that Elrond would willingly let Arwen leave the protection of Rivendell without an escort, much less let her go looking for the hobbits alone with the Black Riders on the loose.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 22, 2022 16:32:01 GMT
After taking Galadriel's family into consideration i don't think it's too far of a stretch for her character to be depicted as wielding a sword, or being a competent fencer. I'll only take issue if the writers decide to wank her character by comparing her martial talent to guys like Fingolfin or Turin for cheap Yass Queen *finger snaps* points. Hopefully the choreography for Galadriel's potential fight scenes don't look cringey like WoT's pregnant fight scene.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Feb 22, 2022 17:16:52 GMT
This is true but there do seem hints that you don't necessarily need to wield a sword to fight a battle. The female elves do seem to be depicted as utilising something other than pure martial skills. For example, Luthien's greatest power was that of her voice when raised in song but she also had other enchantments she could use, including the ability to shapeshift, but when assailed directly she needed the hound, Huan, to protect her. So it would be fair to say that female elves use the power of their minds rather than physical prowess in battle. no it wouldn't because Luthien is literally just one person (and an exceptional one) and we have no mention of her being physical-minded. But Galadriel? We know that she was very physically developed and great at athletic feats and she was fierce in her youth. So making her penetrate some fools with a pointy stick isn't really some super tainting of the original. actually, i just found some vague mention of Galadriel fighting: So it came to pass that when the light of Valinor failed, for ever as the Noldor thought, she joined the rebellion against the Valar who commanded them to stay; and once she had set foot upon that road of exile, she would not relent, but rejected the last message of the Valar, and came under the Doom of Mandos. Even after the merciless assault upon the Teleri and the rape of their ships, though she fought fiercely against Feanor in defence of her mother's kin, she did not turn back. Her pride was unwilling to return, a defeated suppliant for pardon; but now she burned with desire to follow Feanor with her anger to whatever lands he might come, and to thwart him in all ways that she could. Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth. granted, this might simply mean that she just objected fiercely against the Kinslaying. But quick search through the History of Middle Earth (where I found the quote) shows that Tolkien uses these exact words - "to fight fiercely" on four more occasions, all of them to describe an actual fight: 1. Huan vs Tevildo 2. Celegorm and Curufin vs orc forces in 456 F.A. 3. Frodo vs Gollum inside the Orodruin 4. describing the Dwarves: A warlike race of old were all the Naugrim, and they would fight fiercely with whomsoever aggrieved them: folk of Melkor, or Eldar, or Avari, or wild beasts, or not seldom with their own kin, Dwarves of other mansions and lordships
so it's fair to assume that Galadriel might've actually fought at the Kinslaying. P.S. from the quote above, we also know that she was not a gentle soul at the start of the Second Age like she was at the end of the 3rd. As you say, though, the precedent was set in the LoTR films by having Arwen rescue Frodo from the Black Riders instead of Glorfindel and in some ways she did become combined with the persona of her two brothers, who don't appear at all in the films. In the original book, having lost his wife to the orcs, it is hardly likely that Elrond would willingly let Arwen leave the protection of Rivendell without an escort, much less let her go looking for the hobbits alone with the Black Riders on the loose. whats cool about the LOTR movies is that despite having quite a number of things that differed from the books, those were still good movies, universally praised and everything (meaning that you can make a movie different or contradicting the source and it still can be a good movie). Not only Arwen was turned into an action girl, Gandalf too was turned into an action grandpa (for instance, there was never any magical fight between him and Saruman in Isengard when Gandalf was captured). Gandalf being a sword-wielding martial sensei didn't make the movies worse, why would Galadriel? mind you, i dont personally like turning Galadriel into an action girl because from my perspective, the "strong woman is always a strong action heroine" formula is oversimplifying the matter so it's not even that good for the feminist agenda nowadays (and it's an overused cliche that needs some rest). I just think this uproar is unwarranted so far, we know pretty much nothing about the show and we often criticize any new Tolkien-based work simply out of our own prejudices and misconceptions or misunderstanding of Tolkien.
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Post by ScumbagShepurd on Feb 22, 2022 17:21:17 GMT
This is true but there do seem hints that you don't necessarily need to wield a sword to fight a battle. The female elves do seem to be depicted as utilising something other than pure martial skills. forgot this part. Not all female elves are like Luthien. I already found the quote about Galadriel but there's also another elven woman, Idril at the Fall of Gondolin: At length she had sped the most part of her guard down the secret way with Eärendel, constraining them to depart with imperious words, yet was her grief great at that sundering. She herself would bide, said she, nor seek to live after her lord; and then she fared about gathering womenfolk and wanderers and speeding them down the tunnel, and smiting marauders with her small band; nor might they dissuade her from bearing a swordnot only she wields a sword, she also uses it to kill some morgoth scum.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Feb 22, 2022 19:45:10 GMT
I wish most of my books weren't packed up right now sadly, but I found this quote for anyone who is interested. All this talk really reminded me of how much I love Tolkien, I can't recommend the HomE enough, especially for the laws and customs of the Eldar and Athrabeth Finrod ah Andreth.
From HoME v. 10, Morgoth's Ring
In all such things, not concerned with the bringing forth of children, the neri and nissi (that is, the men and women) of the Eldar are equal - unless it be in this (as they themselves say) that for the nissi the making of things new is for the most part shown in the forming of their children, so that invention and change is otherwise mostly brought about by the neri. There are, however, no matters which among the Eldar only a ner can think or do, or others with which only a nis is concerned. There are indeed some differences between the natural inclinations of neri and nissi, and other differences that have been established by custom (varying in place and in time, and in the several races of the Eldar). For instance, the arts of healing, and all that touches on the care of the body, are among all the Eldar most practiced by the nissi; whereas it was the elven-men who bore arms at need. And the Eldar deemed that the dealing of death, even when lawful or under necessity, diminished the power of healing, and that the virtue of the nissi in this matter was due rather to their abstaining from hunting or war than to any special power that went with their womanhood. Indeed in dire straits or desperate defense, the nissi fought valiantly, and there was less difference in strength and speed between elven-men and elven-women that had not borne child than is seen among mortals. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need.
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Post by wright1978 on Feb 22, 2022 20:10:54 GMT
Could Galadriel be handled with due care and reverance for the source material and still appear in armor, perhaps. Will that happen, i don't think there's a chance in hell. This lot don't care about Tolkien barring cynical use of the brand.
If they wanted to create a diverse/equalism fantasy story there's plenty of options they could have used on top of the option of innovating their own IP. They deserve all the criticism they are getting imo.
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 22, 2022 21:41:04 GMT
P.S. from the quote above, we also know that she was not a gentle soul at the start of the Second Age like she was at the end of the 3rd. On the other hand many elven-men were great healers and skilled in the lore of living bodies, though such men abstained from hunting, and went not to war until the last need. You could be right about Galadriel because Elrond was also a fighter in his youth and yet by the 3rd Age was a renowned healer, so she could have been the same. Of course, they both had the elven rings as well to aid them and since their power lay in healing and restoration that could account for the change in these characters from their youth because, as Tolkien states, the Eldar believed that dealing in death diminished the power of healing and so they wouldn't want to reduce the efficacy of the rings.
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Post by smilesja on Feb 23, 2022 6:49:54 GMT
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Post by gervaise21 on Feb 24, 2022 8:51:01 GMT
Honestly, after the dog's dinner that was the Hobbit trilogy, I am surprised that anyone still has faith in the prospect of Tolkien's world being done faithfully to his vision. To my mind people should either watch the Rings of Power as simply a fantasy epic that happens to be set in Middle Earth with some familiar characters included (in other words a piece of fan fiction) or just not watch it at all. I shall opt for the latter.
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Post by Hier0phant on Feb 24, 2022 19:37:01 GMT
Honestly, after the dog's dinner that was the Hobbit trilogy, I am surprised that anyone still has faith in the prospect of Tolkien's world being done faithfully to his vision. To my mind people should either watch the Rings of Power as simply a fantasy epic that happens to be set in Middle Earth with some familiar characters included (in other words a piece of fan fiction) or just not watch it at all. I shall opt for the latter. Tbh i think i developed a masochist fetish where i like to watch, with dark glee, my favorite fantasy stories being dragged through the mud by mediocre writers who suffer from delusions of grandeur.
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Post by Iakus on Feb 24, 2022 20:40:17 GMT
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