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Post by linksocarina on Jan 2, 2018 23:29:53 GMT
Also changed the original point. I did? Maybe you can explain what you meant. Also, I don't see much connection to the discussion here, the "hit pieces" you are referring to probably focused on the animations, and while that focus magnified the problem, I'd say that on release it had merit. ME:A shouldn't have been released in that state, consumers shouldn't be punished if they decide to actually trust you and buy your product on release. I changed my original point...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 2, 2018 23:36:49 GMT
(Shrug) does one need to be chained and sold on the market place then to form an opinion on slavery? Internet has plenty of information to select games. You cannot really say that the opinion is legitimate, and then call it halfassed and unfair in the next sentence.
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Post by linksocarina on Jan 3, 2018 0:38:13 GMT
(Shrug) does one need to be chained and sold on the market place then to form an opinion on slavery? Internet has plenty of information to select games. You cannot really say that the opinion is legitimate, and then call it halfassed and unfair in the next sentence. Well, he is talking about two different opinions ultimately. The video stuff and graphical issues are easy pickings to make fun of, its another thing to write off dialogue and character delivery and story beats through cherry picking, for example.
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Post by Scathane on Jan 3, 2018 3:30:58 GMT
(Shrug) does one need to be chained and sold on the market place then to form an opinion on slavery? Internet has plenty of information to select games. Yet I bet you wouldn't value someone's opinion on a book s/he didn't read...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 3, 2018 4:14:26 GMT
(Shrug) does one need to be chained and sold on the market place then to form an opinion on slavery? Internet has plenty of information to select games. Yet I bet you wouldn't value someone's opinion on a book s/he didn't read... But if you read the review of the book and a few passages you can form the opinion on wether you are going to like it or not, whether you like the character in the quote or not. I would not argue with those impressions, and won’t expect someone to read the book from cover to cover or watch the entire movie....
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Post by melbella on Jan 3, 2018 4:47:49 GMT
Reviewers have presumably read the book though, before writing a review, and not just skimmed it? There's kind of a difference.
Still, the problem with getting info on which to base an opinion from reviews or clips is that it's a very limited pool, often only focusing on one or two things the author/reviewer likes/doesn't like. It's hard for me to judge if a book is something I will like or not based on whatever biases the reviewer may have. They may love it and rave about it, but I get into it and realize they failed to mention it involved something I absolutely hate in a book, or whatever. Likewise, I can't form an opinion on a game by watching someone else play it. Sure, I can see what it looks like and maybe how mechanics work, but I have no context for what is going on. They may pick dialogue options I wouldn't based on what they know and I don't, and the result of the dialogue may give me a wrong impression of what the character is like, or could be like if a different option is picked. Especially in large rpgs, one snippet of a cutscene isn't going to tell the whole story.
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Post by Superhik on Jan 4, 2018 13:59:35 GMT
Not to be an asshole about it, but I think it needs to be said anyway, specifically because this is a BW forum and many people here see TW franchise as an attack on BW (or something):
As always when it comes to TW and TW3 in particular, there are many people here who didn't play the game and yet are very anxious to give their opinions on it.
It's entirely legitimate to not like the game / the idea of the game or to not want to play it, but basing character assessment on some half-assed impressions based on things others said or snippets one saw on social media / playing half an hour of the game - is hardly fair, and usually tends to be completely inaccurate.
Personally I find the "Mary Sue" question to be much less interesting and relevant than whether a character makes sense, both as a character, and from the PoV of in-universe realism, because from my experience it is entirely possible to make a character who is technically a "Mary Sue" that still makes for a very interesting protagonist / NPC / etc. (though admittedly somewhat rare) And my main distaste for Mary Sue characters usually comes anyway from that direction - meaning them not really making sense in the context of the world, etc.
Noticed similar, here and on other sites. By any measurable metric game was enormous success... great sales, highest number of GOTY awards, number one rated ( by user score) on MC, right at the top by Steam Reviews, independent YTube reviewers, DLC's receiving same reception, etc, etc...hell, even it's expansion beats full blown games in it's year, something you don't see often. But check out forums, or articles commenting on it, and there's always find a very small ( and consistent) number people, that seem infuriated and rant the similar ( "Overrated! Boring! Sucks!). Imo, non-gamer forums tend to be far more rational and mature in these types of discussions."True gamers" are (often) too much emotionally attached to company or IP and turn everything into My favorite toy is better than yours! silly hysterics.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 14:02:44 GMT
So, if I pay down the 60$ and spend a minimum of ... how many hours? 10? 20? 30? I will have the luxury to express the negative opinion without that prompting the public statements doubting my intellectual capacity and reasoning abilities as well as virility?
If I meet the satisfactory pre-requisite to criticize people would then respectfully disagree with me? Heh. As if.
I have played Andromeda twice, beginning to end and played MP, and my opinion is contrary to other people, and I was "called out" on it, and called "delusional" and a "liar" etc just as much on my very informed opinion as I am "called out" and called a liar as I am when I express opinion on the Witcher that I do not own.
No matter what you do, if your opinion is contrary to that of the other guy, you have to be prepared to be insulted for disagreeing.
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Post by Superhik on Jan 4, 2018 14:07:12 GMT
So, if I pay down the 60$ and spend a minimum of ... how many hours? 10? 20? 30? I will have the ability to express the negative opinion? If I meet the satisfactory pre-requisite to criticize people would then respectfully disagree with me? Heh. As if. That's up to you to decide. My point is some people are not interested in criticizing or trying to look at the game, how it does what it does, on it's own merits. It more turns into one vs. other childish tantrum, like with Zelda/Horizon, BDO/ESO, etc.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 14:11:56 GMT
So, if I pay down the 60$ and spend a minimum of ... how many hours? 10? 20? 30? I will have the ability to express the negative opinion? If I meet the satisfactory pre-requisite to criticize people would then respectfully disagree with me? Heh. As if. That's up to you to decide. My point is some people are not interested in criticizing or trying to look at the game, how it does what it does, on it's own merits. It more turns into one vs. other childish tantrum, like with Zelda/Horizon, BDO/ESO, etc. My point is that if people are willing to have a conversation in a civil manner they can have it independently of anything else. people do not go on the net in the mindset of respecting others' positions and opinions, they go on the net to find their tribe and fight the other, preferably smaller, tribe, and nothing at all will be good enough, and no sentiment you do not share is "valid". "If it is not important to me, it should not be important to you" and "I do it this way, why can't you do it this way?" and "anyone who disagrees with my logic has no logic" is the standard reasoning.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 15:59:32 GMT
Nothing I say is going to change the fact that many Bioware fans hold a deep grudge towards CDPR - which I suppose I even understand to a degree, but don't really care about, possibly because I lost any love or respect I ever had to Bioware as a brand name, right now I only look at the products themselves. I have no grudge against the CDPR. They simply did not produce a game that I want to play yet. I have a grudge against people that say "what you feel and want is irrelevant and pointless in videogames & nobody needs it, if you only play the Witcher, you will understand that what you feel and want is irrelevant, and it is a great game." My opinion will change if they produce Cyberpunk with a fixed male protagonist. Then I will form a grudge against the CDPR. I do not know if Hamlet was Shakespear's wish fulfillment character, but I am pretty certain Geralt's is that for the novels' writer, as certain as I am that some polychromatic eyed, silver-haired maiden whose only flaw is that she cares to deeply about her friends and that gets her in terrible trouble who faces an impossible choice between three men who are crushingly in love with her is the young teenage author's wet dream. The wish fulfillment characters are not necessarily bad, or unloved by others. My gaming preferences do run against the games where someone else's character is given you to play with, particularly when it is very clear who it belongs to & whose wet dream it is. I want the games to be about my wet dream characters.
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Post by Ocelot on Jan 4, 2018 16:52:43 GMT
Geralt could have been considered a mary sue, if the games started out at the beginning of his life as a witcher and then have everything happen for him with ease. Like learning all the signs in one day, while other witchers would take a month etc. Or being able to kill two Striga's during his first year at the same time. You get my point.
However the games start around quite a few years after Geralt became a Witcher. He has earned so much experience that whatevever thing he does in the game, can generally be justified through experience.
And while he generally kicks monster ass, and can sleep with pretty much any woman he comes across (Though I fail to see how that would make him a Mary Sue, since I know plenty of guys that can do that as well) he still doesn't always saves the day without any casualties.
Geralt often has to make choices where there is no happy ending for both parties (A trait of a Mary Sue is that they can generally have their cake and eat it too). However he generally tries to do the best he can.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 16:52:58 GMT
Thank you for proving my point. Your assessment of both characters is incredibly shallow. What do you mean, "both" characters? I am not assessing Hamlet at all??? So, which two chars?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 17:44:09 GMT
What do you mean, "both" characters? I am not assessing Hamlet at all??? So, which two chars? I thought you were referring to Geralt and Ciri, if not, my bad. no, Geralt, and I threw together a kindda typical amalgamation of a self-insert you'd find on fan-fiction.net, Crystal Star or whatever, what we traditionally expect as a Mary Sue girl-teen self-fulfillment character (I read a lot of fanfiction back in BG times). I have never really looked at Ciri, because most of the 3 games is Geralt, I just know she is his adopted daughter and playable for a bit in the third game. Lol... is she... actually superficially recognizable from this? Oh, gods...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 19:59:16 GMT
no, Geralt, and I threw together a kindda typical amalgamation of a self-insert you'd find on fan-fiction.net, Crystal Star or whatever, what we traditionally expect as a Mary Sue girl-teen self-fulfillment character (I read a lot of fanfiction back in BG times). I have never really looked at Ciri, because most of the 3 games is Geralt, I just know she is his adopted daughter and playable for a bit in the third game. Lol... is she... actually superficially recognizable from this? Oh, gods... My point was that by being disingenuous or simply due to ignorance, many characters can be stripped down into that archetype you are describing, and my argument is that it's simply not a correct interpretation of either character.
As for Ciri, I can't speak too much in regards to her, but with her at least the Mary Sue interpertation isn't as far fetched (though I'd still say not applicable in the end), because she's very much the "chosen one". But her status aside, I'd say that she's also too brash, hotheaded, impatient, and irrational, to fit that archetype you were talking about.
And yes, she's good-looking, though not exactly in a traditional super-model sense.
Actually, most of the Mary Sues in those teenage fictions will be pretty darn dare, brush and outright rude to those characters they do not like, and expect all the characters that they like to applauded when they act that way. Teenage girls' fiction tend to alternate between them being uber-awesome and having long angsty sessions of feels and self-exposition. Which usually prepares them to regretfully sleeping with the nice beta male who will continue to be hopelessly in love... They can also be subdivided into two distinctive groups, that were (nearly) raped or otherwise tortured and became hardened by it through suffering and that are virgins.... Heh, am I the only one who'd actually read classic Mary Sue fictions? Because following the logic that you need to play Geralt to know Geralt, you do need to read Mary Sues to know one...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 21:24:57 GMT
Actually, most of the Mary Sues in those teenage fictions will be pretty darn dare, brush and outright rude to those characters they do not like, and expect all the characters that they like to applauded when they act that way. Teenage girls' fiction tend to alternate between them being uber-awesome and having long angsty sessions of feels and self-exposition. Which usually prepares them to regretfully sleeping with the nice beta male who will continue to be hopelessly in love... They can also be subdivided into two distinctive groups, that were (nearly) raped or otherwise tortured and became hardened by it through suffering and that are virgins.... Heh, am I the only one who'd actually read classic Mary Sue fictions? Because following the logic that you need to play Geralt to know Geralt, you do need to read Mary Sues to know one...
To my understanding, a Mary Sue is a very unlikely character, meaning they usually have everything handed to them, they are perfect in most ways, and if they flaws, they are usually flaws which are rather convenient (or circumvented, say a blind character which isn't really hampered by it because of awesome magical sense, etc.), they also tend to be very sympathetic, etc. If such character has a problem, it is usually resolved in the optimal way for her/him.
One traditional objection to the concept if Mary Sue is that there are historical figures which can be described as Mary Sue on a technical level, so that makes the idea that every such character is unrealistic - rather questionable. Which is one reason why I prefer to focus on the realism aspect, whether the character makes sense in the context of the world, etc.
As for Ciri, I'd say that she isn't a Mary Sue because she hardly got anything handed to her from what I know of her history. And her potential is in many ways wasted (in theory she is supposed to be extremely powerful, but in practice she's good with a sword and has a teleportation skill that she can barely control). The point is, she is very human, and she has more than her share of character flaws.
To me, a Mary Sue is a character that is fairily easily to see is the author’s wistful wish-fulfilling dream to the point that it becomes uncomfortable to read. The specific components of that dream vary, so I do not really bullet point them, and scratch them out to prove MS or not MS.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 4, 2018 22:13:24 GMT
Mary Sue is an idealized and seemingly perfect fictional character. Often, this character is recognized as an author insert or wish fulfillment.[1] They can usually perform better at tasks than should be possible given the amount of training or experience. Well, the first part of the definition (self-insert/wish fulfillment) is predicated by "often", and the, second, the over-aptitude, is predicated by "usually". So, either is possible, but not a must, and you chose to focus on one, and I chose to focus on another when talking about it.
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Post by Gandalf the Fabulous on Jan 4, 2018 22:25:54 GMT
So, if I pay down the 60$ and spend a minimum of ... how many hours? 10? 20? 30? I will have the luxury to express the negative opinion without that prompting the public statements doubting my intellectual capacity and reasoning abilities as well as virility? Is it really that important to you to share your opinion on a game you haven't played and have no intention of playing? I mean this is the internet and you can do whatever you want however unless you actually play the games it is pretty much impossible to be able to speak on them with any sort of authority or be taken seriously on the subject, while I am sure even if you had played the games and found that you still did not enjoy them there would still be people who would call you an idiot and tell you to kill yourself (as is the nature of the internet) I am sure for the most part people would be more willing to respectfully disagree (or agree depending on their experiences with the games) but allow you the right to your opinion. But that said do you really desperately need to give your opinion and assumptions about a game series you have never played and have no interest in playing? I mean what happened to the option of just deciding that maybe this game is not for you and just ignoring it and any conversations about it? I mean it would be like me going into Twilight discussions and telling everyone how dumb it is and how wrong they are for liking it, personally from what I have heard about the books and the movies I think they sound dumb and have no interest in reading or watching them (well I tried watching the first one but got to the part where they were making constipated faces at each other and decided that was enough for me) however having not watched the movies or read the books I really don't get to form an informed opinion on the series. Is it dumb? Maybe, thing is I will never know, hell maybe it has a really clever narrative that explores deep themes about our own existence and the relationships between hunter and cattle, perhaps I am missing out on something great and will never know unless I read the book or watch the movies, that is a risk I am willing to take. There is nothing wrong with hearing about something and deciding that you have no interest in it, however to assume you know everything about something based on second hand info you heard in a gossip circle would be ill-advised.
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Post by boxofscreaming on Jan 4, 2018 22:39:58 GMT
No, Mary Sues are only in fan fiction.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 4, 2018 23:22:50 GMT
I hope to be able to weigh on this soon.
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Post by Serza on Jan 9, 2018 0:34:38 GMT
No, Mary Sues are only in fan fiction. Unless you consider the Sequel trilogy of Star Wars a poor fanfic, there's two movies that would like a word with you. And now, see, this is the weird thing that really makes Geralt identifying as Gary Stu hard. He has decades upon decades of experience, and before that he has significant training. Yet he performs everything without error in the games. I put him in the grey, middle area.
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Post by melbella on Jan 9, 2018 1:28:43 GMT
Well, maybe in your game he made 0 errors but not in mine. The only way he could be this "Gary Stu/Mary Sue" thing is if it was impossible for him to mess up. It isn't. Things can go very badly if you make the wrong choices.
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Post by melbella on Jan 9, 2018 1:46:03 GMT
Ok, my Geralt was at least smart enough to NOT unleash a plague.
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Post by dmc1001 on Jan 9, 2018 2:08:50 GMT
I did learn that if you don't do as the Crones ask that a certain other [non-important] character will suffer repercussions. Now, your Geralt could be a "Renegade" (sorry, I'm a major Mass Effect fan) and not give a shit, but you could easily do this trying to do the RIGHT thing. I do find it refreshing because, like in the real world, we don't necessarily know the repercussions of our actions.
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Post by Gwydden on Jan 9, 2018 4:27:16 GMT
Mary Sue is one of those terms in danger of becoming meaningless because of sheer overuse. I would say it takes more than a character being highly competent. The whole universe must rotate around the character in question. They must be the unfailing moral center. The world is divided between people who worship the ground they tread on and villains.
Geralt isn't even close to any of this, and while somewhat of a power fantasy at times he is tamer than most similar characters. If we put him up against the Bioware chart, he is way below Shepard and the Inquisitor in the Mary Sue scale.
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