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Post by Serza on Jan 9, 2018 12:01:23 GMT
Ooh. You're talking about W1, the proto-SPMMORPG. I get it now...
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Post by bizantura on Jan 9, 2018 14:12:48 GMT
For a digital game, the witcher with Geralt made a very versatile protagonist to play with. That makes the series strength and is why I like playing Geralt. Geralt is not "one dimensional" like many protagonists in various other games.
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Post by Serza on Jan 9, 2018 15:47:25 GMT
"Hurr durr kill monsters and screw women."
I suppose those are already two dimensions...
I think I'm finally getting my hand on why Witcher is so bad. Unfortunately, what's the point of sharing in this world we live in?
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Post by cmoe on Jan 9, 2018 16:10:37 GMT
"Hurr durr kill monsters and screw women." I suppose those are already two dimensions... I think I'm finally getting my hand on why Witcher is so bad. Unfortunately, what's the point of sharing in this world we live in? Aw, Serza I really like you but sometimes you make me wanna take a few shots. Though a kill monsters and screw women mentality still doesn't make him a Mary Sue(whatever that even means nowadays). Personally I do feel there is a lot more depth to the character, just to throw that out there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 16:16:13 GMT
"Hurr durr kill monsters and screw women." I suppose those are already two dimensions... I think I'm finally getting my hand on why Witcher is so bad. Unfortunately, what's the point of sharing in this world we live in? Aw, Serza I really like you but sometimes you make me wanna take a few shots. Though a kill monsters and screw women mentality still doesn't make him a Mary Sue(whatever that even means nowadays). Personally I do feel there is a lot more depth to the character, just to throw that out there. Is that the depth of character though, or is it the good quest design when the player can pick multiple quest resolutions and see what happens. In other words, if you make all quests linear, will Geralt still be complex?
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Post by Serza on Jan 9, 2018 16:29:55 GMT
"Hurr durr kill monsters and screw women." I suppose those are already two dimensions... I think I'm finally getting my hand on why Witcher is so bad. Unfortunately, what's the point of sharing in this world we live in? Aw, Serza I really like you but sometimes you make me wanna take a few shots. Though a kill monsters and screw women mentality still doesn't make him a Mary Sue(whatever that even means nowadays). Personally I do feel there is a lot more depth to the character, just to throw that out there. I can't really remember much more to him. But you are right, this is not the most correct of threads...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 16:48:49 GMT
Is that the depth of character though, or is it the good quest design when the player can pick multiple quest resolutions and see what happens. In other words, if you make all quests linear, will Geralt still be complex? There is a depth to Geralt in the game. One would most likely know that if they played the game. He is also written that way in the books. And the example would be?
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Post by cmoe on Jan 9, 2018 16:53:05 GMT
Aw, Serza I really like you but sometimes you make me wanna take a few shots. Though a kill monsters and screw women mentality still doesn't make him a Mary Sue(whatever that even means nowadays). Personally I do feel there is a lot more depth to the character, just to throw that out there. Is that the depth of character though, or is it the good quest design when the player can pick multiple quest resolutions and see what happens. In other words, if you make all quests linear, will Geralt still be complex? I really suck at trying to formulate my thoughts on character depth... but to try and answer, I think like a lot of RPG's it depends on how you play your game. Even though he is a set protag, there is room to play him differently than others would. Some may play a Geralt who kills and screws and that's the end of it. When I played, I felt there was more to him than that. I haven't read the books so what I know of him is mostly through the games. But it felt like he grew as a character in the games. I rarely chose the neutral path throughout the trilogy, because my Geralt did feel for others and wanted to try and help in a world where it didn't seem to make a difference. Even though witchers are supposed to have their emotions dulled because of the mutations, I think it actually just dulls the observable response. Not the actual emotion. So the changes or reactions in him can be subtle.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 16:58:17 GMT
Is that the depth of character though, or is it the good quest design when the player can pick multiple quest resolutions and see what happens. In other words, if you make all quests linear, will Geralt still be complex? I really suck at trying to formulate my thoughts on character depth... but to try and answer, I think like a lot of RPG's it depends on how you play your game. Even though he is a set protag, there is room to play him differently than others would. Some may play a Geralt who kills and screws and that's the end of it. When I played, I felt there was more to him than that. I haven't read the books so what I know of him is mostly through the games. But it felt like he grew as a character in the games. I rarely chose the neutral path throughout the trilogy, because my Geralt did feel for others and wanted to try and help in a world where it didn't seem to make a difference. Even though witchers are supposed to have their emotions dulled because of the mutations, I think it actually just dulls the observable response. Not the actual emotion. So the changes or reactions in him can be subtle. But that's normal for any game's protagonist, that it can be infused with the player's emotions and motivations. Where does Geralt show as much or as little depth than any other VG protagonist independently of the game's quest design? In the games with the custom protagonist, it is up to the player to create a Mary or not by bringing in whatever features into the character. The more fixed the protagonist is, the more the writers's intent shows through and overpowers the player's decisions. So, the question is, did Spakowski wrote up his own power fantasy in Geralt, and does it come to the fore in the game's Geralt.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 9, 2018 17:04:26 GMT
I'd say it's questionable whether Geralt "wins" in W2. He certainly didn't at the beginning, when the guy he's supposed to protect is killed right in front of him. Sure, his name is cleared with the people who have the authority to execute him or keep him in prison forever (namely, Roche, etc.) but it's not exactly made public that he was cleared of killing Foltest. Certainly not to the extent it was publicized he was wanted for the murder. I don't know how many times in W3 random people made snide comments about it - they still thought he did it. It seems more accurate to say he survived; he didn't win. I was going to say, I'd actually consider W2 a downer ending. I tend to play Geralt as "knight in sour armor," so I wasn't willing to let Saskia and what she stood for die just to save Triss. But then Loc Muinne turned into a bloodbath and Letho's plan - which, if I understood it correctly, was to cause as much chaos in the North as possible to soften it for a Nilfgaardian invasion - did pretty much succeed, especially when you consider the context of W3. Sure, Geralt gets out alive, but it's not like he actually solved any of the underlying problems that caused all the chaos in the first place. And for the most part, he probably couldn't. I think one of the big differences between Geralt and most Bioware protagonists is that he has very little political clout, and the leaders feel perfectly free to ignore his opinion if it suits them. (As for "choices not mattering" because Triss survives anyway, I suspect that's partly because CDPR wanted her to be still alive for W3. And I don't blame them for that.)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 17:05:16 GMT
My advice is to play the games and or read the books then come back with an opinion. No, thank you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 17:07:26 GMT
In w3 alone play the Barons quest in total and you will see his character. Sometimes it is a look or the way he says something or acts. You obviously played it, so you can explain how Geralt comes across as a deep person in the Baron's Quest. My understanding is that the set up of the quest is that a tyrannical brutal man is beating on his wife and daughter, kills his wife's lover, and the wife decides to take a revenge on him by turning to the black magic to transform the unborn fetus of his child into a monster to slay his father. So, how does Geralt react to it in a deep way?
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Post by Kroitz on Jan 9, 2018 17:11:25 GMT
 Yare Yare Daze.
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Post by cmoe on Jan 9, 2018 17:14:26 GMT
I really suck at trying to formulate my thoughts on character depth... but to try and answer, I think like a lot of RPG's it depends on how you play your game. Even though he is a set protag, there is room to play him differently than others would. Some may play a Geralt who kills and screws and that's the end of it. When I played, I felt there was more to him than that. I haven't read the books so what I know of him is mostly through the games. But it felt like he grew as a character in the games. I rarely chose the neutral path throughout the trilogy, because my Geralt did feel for others and wanted to try and help in a world where it didn't seem to make a difference. Even though witchers are supposed to have their emotions dulled because of the mutations, I think it actually just dulls the observable response. Not the actual emotion. So the changes or reactions in him can be subtle. But that's normal for any game's protagonist, that it can be infused with the player's emotions and motivations. Where does Geralt show as much or as little depth than any other VG protagonist independently of the game's quest design? In the games with the custom protagonist, it is up to the player to create a Mary or not by bringing in whatever features into the character. The more fixed the protagonist is, the more the writers's intent shows through and overpowers the player's decisions. So, the question is, did Spakowski wrote up his own power fantasy in Geralt, and does it come to the fore in the game's Geralt. I feel like this thread has answered the question quite well of whether he is a Mary Sue. For me, it would never occur to me to even consider that label for him regardless of how the person plays the game. I also don't understand the power-fantasy argument for Geralt anymore than any other potential character in an RPG I've played.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 17:31:58 GMT
You obviously played it, so you can explain how Geralt comes across as a deep person in the Baron's Quest. My understanding is that the set up of the quest is that a tyrannical brutal man is beating on his wife and daughter, kills his wife's lover, and the wife decides to take a revenge on him by turning to the black magic to transform the unborn fetus of his child into a monster to slay his father. So, how does Geralt react to it in a deep way? That’s one way to look at I suppose but shallow interpretation at best. What’s the point in explaining to someone who has no frame of reference and refuses to play the game. And with such a shallow understanding of the relationships in that quest. Well, I figure there is a way for people to describe the impact the quest and characters have on them emotionally without making the other person to go experience it for themselves and form their own opinion.
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Post by cmoe on Jan 9, 2018 17:35:41 GMT
That’s one way to look at I suppose but shallow interpretation at best. What’s the point in explaining to someone who has no frame of reference and refuses to play the game. And with such a shallow understanding of the relationships in that quest. Well, I figure there is a way for people to describe the impact the quest and characters have on them emotionally without making the other person to go experience it for themselves and form their own opinion. Would explaining that the quest made me cry and rethink my decision, reload and replay it 3 times before finally settling with my first choice, make any difference in your opinion on Geralt? Wouldn't you just say that was design of the quest, not the depth of character?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 17:41:25 GMT
Well, I figure there is a way for people to describe the impact the quest and characters have on them emotionally without making the other person to go experience it for themselves and form their own opinion. Would explaining that the quest made me cry and rethink my decision, reload and replay it 3 times before finally settling with my first choice, make any difference in your opinion on Geralt? Wouldn't you just say that was design of the quest, not the depth of character? Actually, yes. My main problem with the Witcher fans is that they are not normally conversant and do not try to show what is so great about the game they love by sharing their own impressions in details. Instead, they adopt the militant stand and their one and only thesis is "it is great because it is better than everything else, certainly better than < insert trashing of your favorite game >, < insert trashing of you personally >." If I saw the selling pitch that appealed to me, I'd have bought it.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 17:46:46 GMT
Well, I figure there is a way for people to describe the impact the quest and characters have on them emotionally without making the other person to go experience it for themselves and form their own opinion. Oh there is but what is the point. Jade it is similar to when I asked you about Swotor I think it was. You told me about it and what you liked about. I have no frame of reference except to say looks kind of interesting. Now you want me to go into depth to explain a long complicated questline and then give you my interpretation of it. Without you knowing anything about the character or the story in the games? For what purpose? For you to try to prove you are right. If you want to think Geralt is a Mary Sue with out playing the games go ahead. This is tiresome Jade. I always read/listen. I might not get convinced, but I do think about stuff others say & I changed my opinion on at least one game based on the opinion of others (Mass Effect).
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 17:50:15 GMT
Actually, yes. My main problem with the Witcher fans is that they are not normally conversant and do not try to show what is so great about the game they love by sharing their own impressions in details. Instead, they adopt the militant stand and their one and only thesis is "it is great because it is better than everything else, certainly better than < insert trashing of your favorite game >, < insert trashing of you personally >." If I saw the selling pitch that appealed to me, I'd have bought it. Should qualify that with, witcher fans don’t tell you what is so great to your satisfaction. There are threads here and post explaining that why they think the games are great. So that’s it you want to know if the games have emotion in them and then you would play them. Yes The Witcher has plenty of emotion and Geralt gets teary eyed at times so does the player. So go play the games and find out you might change your opinion of him. I do not read the PT thread, because that's for the folks hanging out, that's the last thread I would go to. I am more interested in sort of expanded player impact reviews, more than simply "go buy the game and then you will see".
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Post by cmoe on Jan 9, 2018 17:54:42 GMT
Should qualify that with, witcher fans don’t tell you what is so great to your satisfaction. There are threads here and post explaining that why they think the games are great. So that’s it you want to know if the games have emotion in them and then you would play them. Yes The Witcher has plenty of emotion and Geralt gets teary eyed at times so does the player. So go play the games and find out you might change your opinion of him. I do not read the PT thread, because that's for the folks hanging out, I am more interested in sort of expanded player impact reviews, more than simply "go buy the game". I think Phoray's text-based tends to cover the player impact. I haven't read the TW3 one, I know her TW2 one did. Though it has a lot of spoilers too. But if you are sure they aren't for you... I am now starting to wonder if there has been a poll about who loves all ME and DA games and Witcher games. I'm wondering if I'm a misfit.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2018 18:05:15 GMT
I do not read the PT thread, because that's for the folks hanging out, that's the last thread I would go to. I am more interested in sort of expanded player impact reviews, more than simply "go buy the game and then you will see". Really? You were interested in buying Technomancer after I said it was a good game. I didn’t go into depth about any quests or what made the character, story or lore interesting.basically I said it was fun and I liked it. There is a thread that isn’t a read me play the Witcher games on the board. That's because Technomancer checked out all the boxes of what I like about the video games save for the main character being a male called Zach. I need a lot more to get into the game that does not go well with my laundry list of a: customized lead, party-based, unusual non-medieval setting, artistic graphics with a flare, linear/hub, limited length of a PT, quest choices, many cool male characters, no debasing of female characters. So, yeah, getting into technomancer was easy, heck, they even let me romance a male. I do play games that are not like that, but I have to be sold on the game by something really cool/special about it.
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Post by melbella on Jan 9, 2018 20:40:22 GMT
I don't feel the need to "sell" the Witcher to anyone. I, on my own, bought and played all 3 games so I would know what the hell everyone was talking about and be able to contribute meaningfully to any discussions about the games. If that alone doesn't motivate you, I don't think anything will.
If you aren't interested, so be it, but don't criticize based on what you "heard" or "read" someplace else. Until you're there, in the game, making the decisions based on what you know (or think you know) an opinion doesn't mean much. Same can be said for any game: if you haven't played it, you really don't know what you're talking about.
I liked all three games, despite some gameplay issues/mechanics and what was at times shoe-horning. Every game has that though. I like Geralt as a character, think he's extremely funny in a subtle sort of way, and he's fun to play and make fun of at the same time. The lack of a party didn't really bother me since the games are constructed around it. It's not like you're at a disadvantage by not having other people with you and there are plenty of people to talk to everywhere you go.
Edit: one quick addition before lunch is over.... the main theme from all 3 games, to me, is what is the difference (and is there a difference?) between a man and a monster? This theme is explored from the beginning of W1 through the end of W3 Blood & Wine expansion. Steel and silver - they're both for monsters.
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Post by Melra on Jan 9, 2018 20:59:45 GMT
Geralt may have left bit shallow image after the first two games, second to a lesser degree, but the studio's ability to portray the characters and bring out more sides soared to great heights with the third game. I must admit that while I enjoyed Witcher 2 in the end and learned to enjoy it despite early struggles with the combat system, the third game and its characters completely blew me away.
Finally introducing Ciri and Yennefer in the TW3 brought even more layers to Geralt, at least to my Geralt. Playing through the game for first time was possibly my fondest gaming experience so far. I wouldn't call Geralt Gary Sue in really any sense of the word, even in the books (at least what I've read), while he was capable he wasn't flawless. Nor is he so in the games.
I always saw the way I played Geralt to be at times slipping bit close to an antihero, not quite, but pretty close.
Anyway, how you play the game may influence the way the character comes across for many. The woman you have him end up with ( or neither) and how you play the relationship with Ciri are big factors in the game, at least for myself. I didn't have a very strong reaction to the previously mentioned Baron quest line, I did like it though. As someone who's always had a weakness towards stories of protective fathers and their daughters ("adopted" or not) it made the Ciri aspect my primary focus.
I used to kinda hate the Witcher games at least the second one, I played the first one quite long time ago, when I got my hands on the second one I had hard time getting into the gameplay. I didn't make it past the first mission/area it just felt weird to me and a lot of people calling it a great game rubbed me off the wrong way. I am really glad I was able to figure things out, when I did I completed the second one two or three times before I was happy with my save for the third one. If I had let my initial troubles keep me from finishing the second and especially the third game, I would've robbed myself from an amazing story and a great gaming experience.
Nobody owes it to anyone else to change their minds into giving the game(s) a try, if you don't want to, it's your loss. When it comes to strangers I don't really care whether they like it or not, but I would think anyone who's played them and generally enjoys fantasy games/stories and doesn't like the game(s) at all has really weird ass standards or is simply bit wrong in the head.
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Post by melbella on Jan 10, 2018 1:30:35 GMT
There are a lot of ways you can play Geralt, from bleeding heart to merciless mercenary. I probably won't ever do the latter because, like my Hawke who sided with the Templars (for the achievement) I would most likely end up hating him. I don't like hating my game characters - it isn't fun and makes the game not fun either. I couldn't finish that DA2 run fast enough.
Also, the man vs monster thing isn't just about the world. It's also about Geralt himself. How many times can you be called a freak before you start to act like one? Some Witchers break and others resist. What would you do?
Finally, this was one of my favorites side quests in W3. This is pretty much how I see Geralt and the witchers. They're not unlike the Grey Wardens in DA, actually.
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jan 10, 2018 3:02:58 GMT
lol at the "huur durr kill monsters and screw women" comment. I made my Geralt loyal to Shani in 1, turn away from Triss in 2 and stay completely faithful to yen in 3. Sure you can play Geralt like a complete man whore but that's up to the player. Anyway the witcher 3 has one of the most poignant scenes in gaming history for me. To have Geralt a badass monster slayer, not afraid of death itself look so completely shaken because he might've failed at saving his daughter's life, masterful. GAME SPOILER
who can watch this and not find it beautiful or think that there's no depth to Geralt? As for the whole gary stu thing, he has too many flaws and can greatly fuck up too many situations to be one. All outcomes are not always ideal depending on the quest, just shit with a different color. Geralt can be great at fighting (although there are characters that he can't beat no matter what) and he can be good with the ladies but that's it. To constantly be broke and reviled, go through a painful process as a child that could cause death and even if you survive it only leads you on a path of death anyway? no thanks not something I'd want.
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