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Post by melbella on Jan 10, 2018 3:19:25 GMT
Yeah, in my games he was a big softie with people he cared about but often a hardass with those who pushed him too far. He really tore into that guy pretending to be a Witcher, for instance. And he reeeally didn't like being manipulated, though it happened a lot. A pic from that scene you're talking about. No heartless killer here.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jan 10, 2018 3:31:11 GMT
He was more hard-edged in TW2, or at least I recall seeing more asshole responses in that game. The best one being the intimidation option in Troll Trouble where Geralt basically threatens to cut off a quest giver's fingers when he gets stingy. The guy tells Geralt to choke on the reward and that was that. I couldn't stop laughing.
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Post by Arijon van Goyen on Jan 10, 2018 6:11:42 GMT
Geralt is a sexist racist misogynist islamophobe xenophobe and homophobe. Witcher games must be collected all of the world and be burned! 
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Post by Melra on Jan 10, 2018 12:12:26 GMT
lol at the "huur durr kill monsters and screw women" comment. I made my Geralt loyal to Shani in 1, turn away from Triss in 2 and stay completely faithful to yen in 3. Sure you can play Geralt like a complete man whore but that's up to the player. Anyway the witcher 3 has one of the most poignant scenes in gaming history for me. To have Geralt a badass monster slayer, not afraid of death itself look so completely shaken because he might've failed at saving his daughter's life, masterful. GAME SPOILER
who can watch this and not find it beautiful or think that there's no depth to Geralt? As for the whole gary stu thing, he has too many flaws and can greatly fuck up too many situations to be one. All outcomes are not always ideal depending on the quest, just shit with a different color. Geralt can be great at fighting (although there are characters that he can't beat no matter what) and he can be good with the ladies but that's it. To constantly be broke and reviled, go through a painful process as a child that could cause death and even if you survive it only leads you on a path of death anyway? no thanks not something I'd want. It's a great scene and causes some strong reactions in a lot of people. Enjoyed watching this.
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Post by Superhik on Jan 10, 2018 17:55:55 GMT
Kind of weird seeing people flipping out over this on Bioware forum. Take a look at MET and Shepard's role in it. The game opens up with stroking player's ego...You're the best humanity has to offer. You can act like complete dick to most powerful people in the galaxy ( the Council) without consequences ( compare Geralt/Emhyr dialogue). Hell, you can even joke about exterminating his race right in front of Turian councilor. You get to decide what happens to council ( even without any real experience as admiral). You get to decide who becomes Humanity's councilor( even without any political experience). And the list goes on with Cerberus, Reapers, etc, etc...all the way until the final choice. Same is with Dragon Age ( sure, let's have Elf Warden decide who runs the country), and other games.
Aside from some cheesy scenes with women, Geralt is very much a flawed individual. Games numerous time show he's clumsy with courtship, diplomacy, politics, rulers use and donwnplay him, he's surrounded by more intelligent people, he can make wrong decisions and this can bite him in the ass, etc, etc.
In short, he's attractive to women and great at his profession...outside of it, his flaws are apparent and easily demonstrated.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 18:04:39 GMT
Nobody argues that Shepard is created as a perfect vehicle for a wish-fulfillment self-insert.
The question of this thread was if Geralt is a wish-fulfillment self-insert. He is not a vehicle for it, because he is not customizable. The question is a. did Spakowski created a character that was his own power-dream of a Man, and b. is it really clearly visible in the 3 Witcher games.
After all, the whole argument in favor of the fixed protagonists that they make for better characters, because they defy the player's wishes to turn them into Mary Sues. In other words, we postulate that a professional writer is better capable than an average player to breathe life and personality into the main character. However, if you are instead handed over another guy's Mary Sue, it negates the advantage.
At least that is how I interpret the OP.
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Post by melbella on Jan 10, 2018 20:44:44 GMT
The only person in this thread talking about self-inserts is you, @carefull , and I have to wonder where you are getting the idea that Geralt IS one? It seems like you are assuming that is the case, or are just simply stating it as fact, and then are using your assumption/"fact" to prove the claim that Geralt is a Mary Sue perfect character. My question is, what evidence do you have that Geralt is a self insert of the book author? And, even if he is on some level, what makes you think he's a perfect character as a result? Most of the posts in this thread demonstrate pretty clearly that Geralt is far from perfect. Those posts are based on playing the games, however. Your opinion is based on ??? I'm not sure what?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2018 22:06:13 GMT
The only person in this thread talking about self-inserts is you, @carefull , and I have to wonder where you are getting the idea that Geralt IS one? It seems like you are assuming that is the case, or are just simply stating it as fact, and then are using your assumption/"fact" to prove the claim that Geralt is a Mary Sue perfect character. My question is, what evidence do you have that Geralt is a self insert of the book author? And, even if he is on some level, what makes you think he's a perfect character as a result? Most of the posts in this thread demonstrate pretty clearly that Geralt is far from perfect. Those posts are based on playing the games, however. Your opinion is based on ??? I'm not sure what? I am not trying to prove it, I am asking questions. It is incorrect to say that I consider a Mary Sue a bad thing. In fact, I think all customized protagonists are free for all Mary Sue vehicle. So, I am not picking on Geralt as being terrible because he is a Mary Sue, I am more curious the same way as the OP "is he?". My superficial assumptions are based on how much Geralt feels like a power-fantasy character someone might self-insert as from the plot descriptions and peeps talking about the quests and pictures review. He seems to have that angsty quality about him: a good man at heart, that was forced by fate to become an unfairly hated and loathed Monster Hunter. His is a proud loner that take the scorn in a manly way. And he outlives them all. As scarred as he is, women flok to him, because no other man in the Realm measures up, or at least no man he comes across. Even a woman that seems to have feelings for another man will fall for Geralt if he so wishes. A sorceress of great power would expend her magic to rip him away from another woman. He cannot experience emotions by definition, yet he feels deep down, so much that at times a manly tear will slip down his cheek. His appearance improves from game to game, and the one thing that seemed to be implied in the books, that he was supposed to be ugly like TNO is negated. In other words, to me he feels as much a power fantasy MS as Shepard, Hawke, Revan and Exile, but not mitigated for me as a player by the "sure, she is, but she is my Mary Sue!"
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jan 10, 2018 23:25:28 GMT
He's sterile and as a witcher can't contract sexually transmitted diseases, so if any women flock to him it's more out of convenience than anything else. There are plenty of other males in the game (or books) that measure up and are just as attractive or powerful if not more so; Iorveth, Avallach, Dettlaff and Vilgefortz come to mind....at least imo. One of the women I wanted Geralt to desperately end up with in one play-through basically makes it clear she is moving on from you and there is nothing you can do about it. There is also the fact that Yennefer was torn between Geralt and a sorcerer in the books, so not everything is peachy for Geralt in this respect. I've always found the "can't experience emotions or the trial of the grasses greatly diminishes them" bullshit to a certain extent. This could just be a defense mechanism because of how the world treats witchers. I see it time and again and it's not just Geralt, but I would hazard a guess that most witchers that say they don't feel emotions are lying to themselves. his appearance improved from game to game because the graphics improved, call me crazy but I think he looks remarkably similar between games, even to the potato graphics of witcher 1. While Geralt may refer to himself as ugly, does it actually mean he's ugly and just how much of that is a lack of self confidence? I've met plenty of attractive people with attractive qualities that think of themselves as hideous beasts and I've even struggled with my own self confidence over the years. When people refer to him as a mutant and ugly freak, I've always thought their actions were based on fear rather than truth. It all comes down to interpretation I guess but I never once considered Geralt ugly in the books or the games, just different. So I'm curious as to what would make him not a gary stu in your opinion? I mean he fights well and can get laid. If that makes a character a gary stu then I guess no one wants to play a losing simulator. Also if he is a self insert by the author then Sapkowski must have some masochistic tendencies.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 0:00:48 GMT
I want to emphasize that I don’t mind Mary Sue characters, but what would have made me feel like he is not one are:
Mainly Being able to clearly see that he is one of many. Other Witcher’s participating in the plot, lots of other attractive and cool male characters evident in the game, and they also achieve important things. Situations were he is treated fairily and open minded lay by other characters, as commonly as the undeserved scorn A villain, antagonist or opponent that makes you feel that there is an actual doubt in your heart as to who you want to win, your guy or the other guy No pretending that he does not feel emotions while he does. One way or another, without the coy game about it. The dilution of every beautiful girl jumps out of her dress when she sees Geralt elimination of the subplot where a sorceress makes him fall in love with her and then he goes on to explore if his feelings are real or magical... The ability for him to engage in romantic relationships with other men
What I totally approve of is that he does not have a wolf familiar or a special connection with some other cool animal.
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Post by Psychedelic on Jan 11, 2018 0:21:37 GMT
He's sterile and as a witcher can't contract sexually transmitted diseases, so if any women flock to him it's more out of convenience than anything else. I see you have thought that through :amirite: ... Sorry, what was the topic, Mary Sue something?
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Post by Onecrazymonkey1 on Jan 11, 2018 0:49:14 GMT
I want to emphasize that I don’t mind Mary Sue characters, but what would have made me feel like he is not one are: Mainly Being able to clearly see that he is one of many. Other Witcher’s participating in the plot, lots of other attractive and cool male characters evident in the game, and they also achieve important things. Situations were he is treated fairily and open minded lay by other characters, as commonly as the undeserved scorn A villain, antagonist or opponent that makes you feel that there is an actual doubt in your heart as to who you want to win, your guy or the other guy No pretending that he does not feel emotions while he does. One way or another, without the coy game about it. The dilution of every beautiful girl jumps out of her dress when she sees Geralt elimination of the subplot where a sorceress makes him fall in love with her and then he goes on to explore if his feelings are real or magical... The ability for him to engage in romantic relationships with other men What I totally approve of is that he does not have a wolf familiar or a special connection with some other cool animal. it's perfectly fine if you don't mind mary sue characters even if I always found them a little negative myself. Just a couple of things I would like to point out though. There are other attractive male characters in the game but I will concede that beauty is subjective anyway so maybe they're just not to your taste. One thing I felt was a disservice was the lack of development for Eredin and the wild hunt altogether. As genocidal as Eredin was in the books, I would of liked more character development for him, however his character wouldn't change Geralt either way. The tricky thing with this situation is that it wouldn't matter how much doubt the villain made you feel and question yourself. Geralt was always going kill him no matter what because Geralt was always going to protect his daughter. Honestly it would be pretty out of character for Geralt to question whether stopping the villain was the right thing because in the end Geralt doesn't really care about saving the world, just the people he cares about. Actually I find that the exact opposite of a mary sue but to each their own. EDIT: Also I just wanted to add that there is a villain in the blood and wine expansion that I let go every time because he made me feel doubt for killing him. Same for witcher 2. As for the Yennefer plot, his feelings for Yennefer are very real and she never made him fall in love with her. The author has even clarified in interviews that Geralt's magical wish wasn't for love but destiny and it was all Geralt's doing anyway. I believe the games changed this aspect a bit in order to give people the ability to choose Triss without breaking Geralt's character, which I don't mind at all because I like options for people. Still a beautiful scene though. He's sterile and as a witcher can't contract sexually transmitted diseases, so if any women flock to him it's more out of convenience than anything else. I see you have thought that through  ... Sorry, what was the topic, Mary Sue something? 
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 1:30:25 GMT
I want to emphasize that I don’t mind Mary Sue characters, but what would have made me feel like he is not one are: Mainly Being able to clearly see that he is one of many. Other Witcher’s participating in the plot, lots of other attractive and cool male characters evident in the game, and they also achieve important things. It would really be beneficial for you to play the games or read the books before attempting to discuss them. There are other Witchers in the games that Geralt meets and there are quests with other witchers. Cool or good looking males: Iorweth, Lambert, Roche, Letho, Cedric, Avallach to name a few. Yes, there are quests where he is treated fairly and is help is appreciated. Still not sure if Geralt won his encounter with the Man of Glass. Many fights not sure if he could win and indeed he can't for a long time. There are some fights I wish Geralt didn't have to do, just did one the other night not sure who was in the right but Geralt did what he was contract to do, kinda wish he failed it. He does not pretend to not feel emotions. It is part the mutation process and part teaching to not be emotional. There is no coy about it. My thinking is that they all feel but it comes from the hard life, which is realistic as some people who have had difficult and/or traumatic early lives do. Not every pretty girls jumps his bones or wants to. Understanding that plot and why Yenn did that would help in your understanding. Play the game, read the books. Oh yay? If you are really interested Jade, here is an interesting interview from 2015 Sugarpulp.it Interview with Andrzej Sapowski: sugarpulp.it/en/26893/There are other long ones you can find on You Tube where the author explains his character and the story. Cedric is the only remotely attractive guy on your list imo, and even he looks too sinister to be considered attractive. The rest on your list look plain terrible and offputting. Anyway, I picked up the first two games on sale for $6, so if I will let you know when I get there. I am still trying to deal with Ezio.
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Post by melbella on Jan 11, 2018 1:45:16 GMT
Roche is attractive because of his voice.  I want to see him without the hood though.  They really went overboard with the bad headgear in W2. Not as bad as DAI but close.
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Post by melbella on Jan 11, 2018 4:14:39 GMT
Anyway, I picked up the first two games on sale for $6, so if I will let you know when I get there. I am still trying to deal with Ezio. Hope you enjoy them. You may disagree, but I got a lot of DA2 vibes from the first game. 
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Post by cmoe on Jan 11, 2018 7:51:17 GMT
Anyway, I picked up the first two games on sale for $6, so if I will let you know when I get there. I am still trying to deal with Ezio. I'm glad you picked them up and I hope you give them an open minded chance. The Witcher games may not be your thing but they could also surprise you.
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Post by Melra on Jan 11, 2018 12:10:33 GMT
Roche is attractive because of his voice.  I want to see him without the hood though.  They really went overboard with the bad headgear in W2. Not as bad as DAI but close. Pretty sure most people go through the "Hats sure look good on me phase", only to realize the truth later on. 
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 12:41:32 GMT
Anyway, I picked up the first two games on sale for $6, so if I will let you know when I get there. I am still trying to deal with Ezio. Hope you enjoy them. You may disagree, but I got a lot of DA2 vibes from the first game.  Eh, we’ll see. Frankly, I expect Assassin’s Creed with dialogue choices, but no historic background and a very crappy combat with endless obligatory gathering/crafting.
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Post by cmoe on Jan 11, 2018 13:46:53 GMT
Hope you enjoy them. You may disagree, but I got a lot of DA2 vibes from the first game.  Eh, we’ll see. Frankly, I expect Assassin’s Creed with dialogue choices, but no historic background and a very crappy combat with endless obligatory gathering/crafting. Well at least you're going in with an open mind.
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Post by melbella on Jan 11, 2018 13:49:01 GMT
I installed mods for both 1 and 2 to boost my health/stamina so I didn't have to worry much about combat. Another mod I used for 1 was to have all skills unlocked right away so when I got to the level up screen I could add as many abilities as I wanted. It allowed me to concentrate on the game and not have to worry about dying all the time if I couldn't click fast enough. The only thing you need to craft are potions, which help greatly in combat. You can upgrade weapons or craft a few select armors, but that's it. Truth is, by the time I got around to upgrading a weapon in 1, I was at a point in the story where I got a better one anyway, so my effort was wasted. 
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Post by Deleted on Jan 11, 2018 14:00:09 GMT
I installed mods for both 1 and 2 to boost my health/stamina so I didn't have to worry much about combat. Another mod I used for 1 was to have all skills unlocked right away so when I got to the level up screen I could add as many abilities as I wanted. It allowed me to concentrate on the game and not have to worry about dying all the time if I couldn't click fast enough. The only thing you need to craft are potions, which help greatly in combat. You can upgrade weapons or craft a few select armors, but that's it. Truth is, by the time I got around to upgrading a weapon in 1, I was at a point in the story where I got a better one anyway, so my effort was wasted.  I mean crafting potions. Everything I read indicates that combat is handled by first preparing your weapon to kill a specific thing by using a crafted oil, then going to kill that specific thing. I will try vanilla first, and if I can’t play it, I will grab the mods you mention cmoe well, I like the AC, despite not liking Ezio personally and straining to play as him, and I just don’t see where a resemblance to what DA2 means for me could come from. DA2 for me is an epitome of giving me as a player the reigns in terms of the protagonist, and a fun, fast adventure romp with gorgeous light characters and no frustration combat. The only way Witcher could be resembling DA2 is in its story about a pretend medieval city power struggles with double-Crossing. Not sure why it’s closed-minded. I am going to put a pin in it till I play it, guys. You can help me by not directly quoting me b/c I do tend to respond, and I think w have been through all that many times, heh.
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Post by flyingsquirrel on Jan 12, 2018 16:25:11 GMT
I installed mods for both 1 and 2 to boost my health/stamina so I didn't have to worry much about combat. Another mod I used for 1 was to have all skills unlocked right away so when I got to the level up screen I could add as many abilities as I wanted. It allowed me to concentrate on the game and not have to worry about dying all the time if I couldn't click fast enough. The only thing you need to craft are potions, which help greatly in combat. You can upgrade weapons or craft a few select armors, but that's it. Truth is, by the time I got around to upgrading a weapon in 1, I was at a point in the story where I got a better one anyway, so my effort was wasted.  I mean crafting potions. Everything I read indicates that combat is handled by first preparing your weapon to kill a specific thing by using a crafted oil, then going to kill that specific thing. I will try vanilla first, and if I can’t play it, I will grab the mods you mention cmoe well, I like the AC, despite not liking Ezio personally and straining to play as him, and I just don’t see where a resemblance to what DA2 means for me could come from. DA2 for me is an epitome of giving me as a player the reigns in terms of the protagonist, and a fun, fast adventure romp with gorgeous light characters and no frustration combat. The only way Witcher could be resembling DA2 is in its story about a pretend medieval city power struggles with double-Crossing. Not sure why it’s closed-minded. I am going to put a pin in it till I play it, guys. You can help me by not directly quoting me b/c I do tend to respond, and I think w have been through all that many times, heh. . . . . . . . . . . . (Well, somebody had to do it.)
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Zikade
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Zikade on Jan 13, 2018 2:17:34 GMT
My personal definition of a Mary Sue: An over-idealized character, sort of a writer's pet, who shatters your suspension of disbelief by, for example, performing amazing tasks without believable base for them or by being able to walk away with stuff that would get any other person in trouble. They usually have no flaws and those which they do are used for endearment and don't actually hinder their ability to perform at all. They usually hold the moral high ground by always being right. If a character disagrees with him/her, that character gets an unsympathetic portrayal. In fanfiction they have the power to make every canon character around them act out of character.
Geralt a Mary Sue? Nope. Sure, Geralt is strong and more talented in combat than many others but for good and established reasons. He's practically been built to fight monsters. It's not like "I'm the smartest, strongest, prettiest because I just am." He has cool cat eyes? So does all the other Witchers. White hair? Side effect of mutations. It's not like he's a special snowflake who just happened to have all these features. Also, his profession as a Witcher comes with a price. He's not exactly welcomed by most people, his life is dirty and dangerous, he's struggling to get enough money, and he sure as hell doesn't succeed in everything he does and even when he does, there might still be negative repercussions. The choices you make as him, you're often just choosing between two non-ideal ones. Also, while he's a major player, because duh, he's the protagonist, there are bigger things going on than him. He's not the center of the world and often gets swept up to major events against his will. He doesn't get to do everything without consequences. The life he has had actually affects him. He's definitely a flawed character and his strengths have proper reason to exist.
I guess the way you play him can influence how he comes across but I really, really enjoyed my Geralt. Especially in the Witcher 3 where the presence of Ciri and Yennefer brought even more layers.
Gosh, this talk about Geralt... excuse me when I go and continue my NG+.
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Post by flyingovertrout on Jan 13, 2018 18:48:25 GMT
"Every character I don't like is a Mary Sue." -internet
PS. TW1 and 2>TW3
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Noxluxe
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Noxluxe on Jul 26, 2019 23:45:06 GMT
To me, the thing that keeps him from feeling like a Gary Stu is actually the fact that he's perceived as larger-than-life in the setting itself. Right from the first game, you hear about "Geralt of Rivia, the White Wolf". The greatest swordsman in the Northern Kingdowms. Beloved by the most powerful and fickle and beautiful women in the world. Rescuer of princesses. Hero of song and legend. Except Geralt doesn't live up to any of that, at any point. He's easily overwhelmed by a handful of bandits if he isn't careful. He spends most of the story running errands for weirdos and creeps, wading through sewers and swamps and cemeteries fighting things he constantly has to prepare and ingest disgusting poisons to even have a chance against, collecting scars with every contract. The only princess he rescues almost kills him in the process, and grows up to be a spoiled, spiteful bitch who marries a psychopath if he doesn't have to put her down first. He has no power or standing, and gets no respect in daily life. People thumb their noses at him all the time and all he can do is shrug and look for other employers. He's constantly manipulated and used for other people's purposes, and his usual recourse when faced with complicated scenarios - hacking his way out - always leaves collateral damage to stain his conscience even though he was manipulated into that position in the first place. And epic romances worthy of song my ass. His relationships are all clumsy and dysfunctional somehow and fraught with tension because the women he falls for are all too smart and determined for him to keep up with them. He spends most of his time walking around like a beaten dog, moody and miserable and feeling unworthy of affection. ...Until an angry racist stablehand stabs him in the back with a pitchfork. And he dies. Yay. I installed mods for both 1 and 2 to boost my health/stamina so I didn't have to worry much about combat. Another mod I used for 1 was to have all skills unlocked right away so when I got to the level up screen I could add as many abilities as I wanted. It allowed me to concentrate on the game and not have to worry about dying all the time if I couldn't click fast enough. The only thing you need to craft are potions, which help greatly in combat. You can upgrade weapons or craft a few select armors, but that's it. Truth is, by the time I got around to upgrading a weapon in 1, I was at a point in the story where I got a better one anyway, so my effort was wasted.  Heh, that was pretty much my strategy too, once upon a time. It's hard to "get good" at a game if you don't have loads of time to consistently invest in it, or you're so busy with all kinds of different genres that getting bogged down in some of the more intense mechanics of one game just interrupts your fun, so turning down all the difficulty sliders and enabling cheat codes or whatever lets you immerse yourself when you want to without having to worry about all that. After years playing and replaying all our favorite RPGs like that I started experimenting though. It turned out that turning the difficulty up to max and throwing myself into having to plan and strategize made me more invested in the stories, because the worlds they inhabited suddenly actually seemed dangerous and difficult, making the characters' woes and fears ring truer and more worthy of my efforts. Suddenly the darkspawn truly seemed savage and bloodthirsty horrors, and the Geth Snipers became terrifying cold killers, and Krogan mercenaries turned into powder kegs that would tear me apart if I got too close, and needed to be put down fast and hard. And barghests and graviers and fleders and kikimore warriors all needed such diverse tactics and preparations that every victory became a real triumph of Geralt's training and ingenuity. And yeah, the alchemy system really, really shines in 1. I'll be interested to see if it performs equally well in 2 if you keep investing in it. Thinking about it, the Geralt who will gracefully cut my head off isn't nearly as scary as the one who will do the exact same thing... after blinding, stunning, poisoning and laying me flat on my back while setting me on fire to keep me out of the way while he deals with my friends. And I want my witchers scary. 
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