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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 13, 2018 22:38:05 GMT
To me, the whole GW2 fiasco just reinforces the point I made before. Devs are just as guilty of this so called "toxic" environment, because apparently anything that isn't blatant brown nosing is now being a "toxic" person. Any form of criticism, no matter how respectful, is now labeled as harassment, and a company that has the GALL to defend it's fanbase from delusional developers who clearly live in an alternate universe, are now lambasted for harboring and breeding "hateful work environments" and being "sexist" and what ever other ridiculous, inflammatory word they can think of to hurl out. Incidents like this, truly reinforces the point many currently hold also about video game "journalists". Because it is abundantly clear that these groups are on the side of devs and the companies who bribe them for good review scores (what a shocker...) and how none of these groups think of the consumer or go to bat for them. Only people like Jim Sterling and other Youtube personalities, who are constantly mocked for being "inflammatory" and promoting anger ever go to bat for the consumer, the same consumers who for reasons unknown to me, decide to argue against their own self interest in defense of corporations who don't give a single F about them.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 15, 2018 5:42:56 GMT
Developers aren't customer service. They aren't being paid to be nice to fans, they're being paid to make a game. If they're making the work environment toxic, then that's good reason to fire them, but how they choose to interact when people make unsolicited contact with them on social media shouldn't be relevant.
That said, I think it's good advice in general to simply not announce who you work for on social media. Don't act as a representative of the company when you aren't being paid to do that, and don't create problems for your employer by saying things they might not like.
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Post by Pounce de León on Jul 20, 2018 9:06:45 GMT
Zuckerberg refused to moderate people denying Holocaust existed. If you want to expose yourself to such shit it's basically on yourself. You use social media at your own risk. You want a moderated environment, get a proper forum with mods.
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Post by hivemind on Jul 20, 2018 13:33:37 GMT
Developers aren't customer service. They aren't being paid to be nice to fans, they're being paid to make a game. Gamers aren't being paid to be nice either. They actually are the ones who pay for everything to begin with.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 20, 2018 13:51:25 GMT
Developers aren't customer service. They aren't being paid to be nice to fans, they're being paid to make a game. Gamers aren't being paid to be nice either. They actually are the ones who pay for everything to begin with. No, apparently "gamers" are being paid to go out of their way to track down developers on social media and harass them, cause I can't think of any other reason why someone would bother. And enough with this "we pay their salaries!" nonsense. You don't. You never have. That's never been true in any industry or context ever. Development studios don't even receive the full amount of money that gets spent on a game, the bulk of a game's profit goes to the publishers who funded the development and arranged the distribution of that game. Just like in the book and film industries, publishers are the ones who control what games do or do not get made, because they control the money, not the developers. Developers have to do what publishers want, and publishers don't give a fuck about whiny twitter screeds, they only care about maximising profits. If someone is disappointed by a game, the best thing they can do is simply resolve not to spend any money on microtransactions, DLC or sequels, and direct their energy into some sort of constructive hobby, since anyone who has time to waste on tracking down individuals for targeted abuse obviously needs one.
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Post by hivemind on Jul 20, 2018 14:16:00 GMT
Gamers aren't being paid to be nice either. They actually are the ones who pay for everything to begin with. No, apparently "gamers" are being paid to go out of their way to track down developers on social media and harass them, cause I can't think of any other reason why someone would bother. And enough with this "we pay their salaries!" nonsense. You don't. You never have. That's never been true in any industry or context ever. Development studios don't even receive the full amount of money that gets spent on a game, the bulk of a game's profit goes to the publishers who funded the development and arranged the distribution of that game. Just like in the book and film industries, publishers are the ones who control what games do or do not get made, because they control the money, not the developers. Developers have to do what publishers want, and publishers don't give a fuck about whiny twitter screeds, they only care about maximising profits. If someone is disappointed by a game, the best thing they can do is simply resolve not to spend any money on microtransactions, DLC or sequels, and direct their energy into some sort of constructive hobby, since anyone who has time to waste on tracking down individuals for targeted abuse obviously needs one. The point of my reply to you was to show you that "im not being paid to be nice" isn't an argument. If it was, then customers would have more right to be jerks than developers. Civility is a requirement in any form of social interactions. There is simply no justification for being an ass. The way you presented your argument was that it's fine for developers to behave like assholes, but it's totally wrong for players to do the same. It's either fine for everyone or wrong for everyone. I don't care if your boss don't pay you ennough - if you don't respect your customers, don't expect them to respect you either.
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simit
N3
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
XBL Gamertag: Chris2k30
PSN: Simit2k30
Posts: 790 Likes: 1,042
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Post by simit on Jul 20, 2018 17:24:38 GMT
Out of curiosity as someone who doesn't have twitter, facebook etc etc but as someone who has read the twitter comments in the twitter threads, why do devs deliberately put "my views dont represent my employer" then go on to advertise for said employer, if said devs dont want there views to represent there company or game why post publicly at same time as promoting your work? if you dont want to represent your company or deal with the fanbase shouldn't you just make your account private an only add ppl you know?
If say Robert Downey Jr said some nasty shit on twitter im pretty sure Marvel/Disney would say bye, Developers are the face of there product much like RDJ is, to alot of ppl, the face of marvel, if developers dont want that sort of recognition then they should put there social media on private an direct fans to say EA or BioWare twitter feeds for answers, does it excuse some of the remarks by so called fans? hell no just like it doesn't excuse devs either
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 20, 2018 17:31:38 GMT
Out of curiosity as someone who doesn't have twitter, facebook etc etc but as someone who has read the twitter comments in the twitter threads, why do devs deliberately put "my views dont represent my employer" Most people who tweet, tweet about their lives. If they are proud of their work, they will tweet about that too, in senior positions often moreso. The 'these are my views' line is an attempt to separate and/or protect themselves and their company if something dumb is said. It can only be partially effective because life has consequences. The case of the ex-BioWare developer sharpening his axes to dance on TotalBiscuits grave being a case in point. Tweeting is fun (I enjoy doing it with the BSN Twitter account). But it is best to never to forget that it is public statements that are being shared.
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 20, 2018 22:45:07 GMT
No, apparently "gamers" are being paid to go out of their way to track down developers on social media and harass them, cause I can't think of any other reason why someone would bother. And enough with this "we pay their salaries!" nonsense. You don't. You never have. That's never been true in any industry or context ever. Development studios don't even receive the full amount of money that gets spent on a game, the bulk of a game's profit goes to the publishers who funded the development and arranged the distribution of that game. Just like in the book and film industries, publishers are the ones who control what games do or do not get made, because they control the money, not the developers. Developers have to do what publishers want, and publishers don't give a fuck about whiny twitter screeds, they only care about maximising profits. If someone is disappointed by a game, the best thing they can do is simply resolve not to spend any money on microtransactions, DLC or sequels, and direct their energy into some sort of constructive hobby, since anyone who has time to waste on tracking down individuals for targeted abuse obviously needs one. The point of my reply to you was to show you that "im not being paid to be nice" isn't an argument. If it was, then customers would have more right to be jerks than developers. Civility is a requirement in any form of social interactions. There is simply no justification for being an ass. The way you presented your argument was that it's fine for developers to behave like assholes, but it's totally wrong for players to do the same. It's either fine for everyone or wrong for everyone. I don't care if your boss don't pay you ennough - if you don't respect your customers, don't expect them to respect you either. Gamers are the ones being disrespectful when they go to a developer's private social media. You haven't been invited, and more to the point, it's not a work space, it's their private space, and they don't have to let you in AT ALL, let alone engage with you in a manner you feel you deserve. If you have complaints, seek out an official feedback channel. Development studios and publishers often have company twitter and facebook accounts you can go to. If you come to the store where I work with a complaint, I will deal with it there. If you come to my house, or track down my personal social media accounts, I am well within my rights to tell you to fuck off, and I will do so.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 20, 2018 23:40:03 GMT
Gamers are the ones being disrespectful when they go to a developer's private social media. You haven't been invited, and more to the point, it's not a work space, it's their private space, and they don't have to let you in AT ALL, let alone engage with you in a manner you feel you deserve. Twitter isn't a "private space". The recent cofvefe with ArenaNet Started as an extremely polite interaction, and only degenerated after the developer felt that it would be a good idea to start ranting about "sexism" out of nowhere. And of course, no developer "has" to interact with anyone, but when they do, it behooves them to do it in a professional manner. Whether they like it or not, they represent the company on social media, especially when they talk about their work. Though it's heartwarming to see such strong support for free speech from unlikely sources... I do wonder, would you see it differently if a game developer supported Trump openly, and due to his rants on Twitter got fired? Is the protection extends only with those with opinions you agree with, or is the principle important enough to be upheld even when the beneficiary is someone you see as... disagreeable? "Private" may be the wrong word, but Twitter is personal, for sure, and it gives you the power to block communication from people you don't want to engage with. As far as I can see, Price was absolutely in the right, until she went out of her way to publicly shame what's-his-face. I don't see his initial comments as "respectful". She didn't ask for his commentary. I see it more as choosing to butt into a conversation you are not a part of. But she actively sought to create further drama, and the consequences from that are hers to bear. Unfortunately, yes, this protection should also extend to cover Trump supporters, that is only fair. But again, this protection only extend to the point that it starts interfering with your work or professional relationships. If you publicly express a distaste for women or minorities, for example, your coworkers are within their rights to say that they no longer feel comfortable working with you. And like I said in an earlier post, most of these problems can be easily be avoided by simply NOT publicly declaring who you work for.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
Posts: 21,290 Likes: 50,647
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Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda, SWTOR
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Post by Iakus on Jul 20, 2018 23:41:13 GMT
The point of my reply to you was to show you that "im not being paid to be nice" isn't an argument. If it was, then customers would have more right to be jerks than developers. Civility is a requirement in any form of social interactions. There is simply no justification for being an ass. The way you presented your argument was that it's fine for developers to behave like assholes, but it's totally wrong for players to do the same. It's either fine for everyone or wrong for everyone. I don't care if your boss don't pay you ennough - if you don't respect your customers, don't expect them to respect you either. Gamers are the ones being disrespectful when they go to a developer's private social media. You haven't been invited, and more to the point, it's not a work space, it's their private space, and they don't have to let you in AT ALL, let alone engage with you in a manner you feel you deserve. If you have complaints, seek out an official feedback channel. Development studios and publishers often have company twitter and facebook accounts you can go to. If you come to the store where I work with a complaint, I will deal with it there. If you come to my house, or track down my personal social media accounts, I am well within my rights to tell you to fuck off, and I will do so. Unless you set your account to private, Twitter isn't. Nor is most other social media. And as noted, many other people have been harassed and persecuted for wrongthink on social media (Rosanne, anyone?) So yeah, right or wrong the lesson is: don't post anything on social media you wouldn't want making its way back to your friends, family, boss, or otherwise be known by the general population of Planet Earth.
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Post by river82 on Jul 20, 2018 23:45:01 GMT
Gamers are the ones being disrespectful when they go to a developer's private social media. You haven't been invited, and more to the point, it's not a work space, it's their private space, and they don't have to let you in AT ALL, let alone engage with you in a manner you feel you deserve. Twitter isn't a "private space". Small, no-name developers will attach their place of work on their twitter bio to increase followers. They're happy to do this because it means more people are listening to them. Then they become offensive and oh "twitter is my private place" - bullshit it is. If you want a private place create an account without advertising your place of work and run your mouth to the 60 or 70 people who choose to listen. These developers want to pretend that even though they latch onto their place of work to increase their followers that they intend their twitter to be a private place and these developers are lying.
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I don't stir, I work the material.
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Post by slimgrin727 on Jul 21, 2018 0:08:18 GMT
The point of my reply to you was to show you that "im not being paid to be nice" isn't an argument. If it was, then customers would have more right to be jerks than developers. Civility is a requirement in any form of social interactions. There is simply no justification for being an ass. The way you presented your argument was that it's fine for developers to behave like assholes, but it's totally wrong for players to do the same. It's either fine for everyone or wrong for everyone. I don't care if your boss don't pay you ennough - if you don't respect your customers, don't expect them to respect you either. Gamers are the ones being disrespectful when they go to a developer's private social media. You haven't been invited, and more to the point, it's not a work space, it's their private space, and they don't have to let you in AT ALL, let alone engage with you in a manner you feel you deserve. If you have complaints, seek out an official feedback channel. Development studios and publishers often have company twitter and facebook accounts you can go to. If you come to the store where I work with a complaint, I will deal with it there. If you come to my house, or track down my personal social media accounts, I am well within my rights to tell you to fuck off, and I will do so. Please tell me when I have permission to comment on said public account. Also, I'll send proof of my gender and skin color to clear up any manspainling/patriarchy confusion. I wouldn't want to be part of that. Oh, and I'm sorry if I'm mansplaining here? I should have asked permission to respond to this post, of course, lest I offend.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 25, 2018 10:27:28 GMT
Gamers are the ones being disrespectful when they go to a developer's private social media. You haven't been invited, and more to the point, it's not a work space, it's their private space, and they don't have to let you in AT ALL, let alone engage with you in a manner you feel you deserve. If you have complaints, seek out an official feedback channel. Development studios and publishers often have company twitter and facebook accounts you can go to. If you come to the store where I work with a complaint, I will deal with it there. If you come to my house, or track down my personal social media accounts, I am well within my rights to tell you to fuck off, and I will do so. Please tell me when I have permission to comment on said public account. Also, I'll send proof of my gender and skin color to clear up any manspainling/patriarchy confusion. I wouldn't want to be part of that. Oh, and I'm sorry if I'm mansplaining here? I should have asked permission to respond to this post, of course, lest I offend.
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In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 26, 2018 23:47:11 GMT
And enough with this "we pay their salaries!" nonsense. You don't. You never have. That's never been true in any industry or context ever. Holy wow. Do you believe the crap you just posted? A product is made. For it to be profitable, it must be sold. If it is not sold, no one makes any money. That is exactly how commerce works ffs. We do not have a situation where no developer gets paid until the current game they've been working is completed, because the industry has matured and in many cases profits from the previous product's sales support the creation of the next product. Do you think people buy games with money? Do you think developers get paid with money? Pretty strong relation there.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 1:40:56 GMT
And enough with this "we pay their salaries!" nonsense. You don't. You never have. That's never been true in any industry or context ever. Holy wow. Do you believe the crap you just posted? A product is made. For it to be profitable, it must be sold. If it is not sold, no one makes any money. That is exactly how commerce works ffs. We do not have a situation where no developer gets paid until the current game they've been working is completed, because the industry has matured and in many cases profits from the previous product's sales support the creation of the next product. Do you think people buy games with money? Do you think developers get paid with money? Pretty strong relation there. Holy wow, do you actually read entire posts, or do you just take one sentence out of context so you can avoid addressing any actual facts?
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 27, 2018 2:22:42 GMT
Holy wow. Do you believe the crap you just posted? A product is made. For it to be profitable, it must be sold. If it is not sold, no one makes any money. That is exactly how commerce works ffs. We do not have a situation where no developer gets paid until the current game they've been working is completed, because the industry has matured and in many cases profits from the previous product's sales support the creation of the next product. Do you think people buy games with money? Do you think developers get paid with money? Pretty strong relation there. Holy wow, do you actually read entire posts, or do you just take one sentence out of context so you can avoid addressing any actual facts? I read your entire fluff-piece of a post, and chose the part I found most blatantly ignorant and dissected it. You put forth zero facts, only a very poorly informed opinion.
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Post by pessimistpanda on Jul 27, 2018 2:26:00 GMT
Holy wow, do you actually read entire posts, or do you just take one sentence out of context so you can avoid addressing any actual facts? I read your entire fluff-piece of a post, and chose the part I found most blatantly ignorant and dissected it. You put forth zero facts, only a very poorly informed opinion. Well, I can dissect posts just like you do. Watch this! ahemhemThat is stupid, and also wrong, because I say so. And my opinion is more correct-er than yours, despite having the exact same amount of supporting evidence, which is zero. Ta-da!
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 27, 2018 11:04:04 GMT
I read your entire fluff-piece of a post, and chose the part I found most blatantly ignorant and dissected it. You put forth zero facts, only a very poorly informed opinion. Well, I can dissect posts just like you do. Watch this! ahemhemThat is stupid, and also wrong, because I say so. And my opinion is more correct-er than yours, despite having the exact same amount of supporting evidence, which is zero. Ta-da! Congratulations. You have defeated my argument by crushing my sources. Oh wait.... You're the one making shit up. As for your opinion on how commerce works - no, I don't have to prove that to you. That you even think that you have an argument is pretty sad.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 27, 2018 11:57:37 GMT
Well, I can dissect posts just like you do. Watch this! ahemhemThat is stupid, and also wrong, because I say so. And my opinion is more correct-er than yours, despite having the exact same amount of supporting evidence, which is zero. Ta-da! Congratulations. You have defeated my argument by crushing my sources. Oh wait.... You're the one making shit up. As for your opinion on how commerce works - no, I don't have to prove that to you. That you even think that you have an argument is pretty sad. It is okay, they clearly skipped the 10th Grade, or else would have taken the same economics class the other 99.99% of people takes.
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Post by Qui-Gon GlenN7 on Jul 27, 2018 13:04:47 GMT
Congratulations. You have defeated my argument by crushing my sources. Oh wait.... You're the one making shit up. As for your opinion on how commerce works - no, I don't have to prove that to you. That you even think that you have an argument is pretty sad. It is okay, they clearly skipped the 10th Grade, or else would have taken the same economics class the other 99.99% of people takes. Yeah... Cost of Goods Sold, 101 shit. You can try to deflect with corporate structure, shareholders, merchants... In the end, people buy stuff.
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 27, 2018 13:37:03 GMT
Setting economics aside.
I can exercise my frustration to a railway employee if a train is late, they are a 'face' of the organization after all. But if I start to scream at them and abuse them, I have crossed the line.
Surely?
Is not how we treat game devs to be judged on the same basis?
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 27, 2018 15:03:07 GMT
Setting economics aside. I can exercise my frustration to a railway employee if a train is late, they are a 'face' of the organization after all. But if I start to scream at them and abuse them, I have crossed the line. Surely? Is not how we treat game devs to be judged on the same basis? Of course. I for example never yell at my waiter/waitress for food not prepared to my liking. They had no part in it's preparation. I personally, never hurl personal attacks of a cruel and vindictive nature at people, regardless of the situation. However surely even you must realize, with a situation like the GW fiasco, what is being defined as "cruel vindictive abuse" is anything but, and when people wrongly proclaim such atrocities, it negatively impacts the perception such statements receive in the future, warranted or otherwise. The same phenomenon is happening with things like Social Justice as a very concept. Most problems of such a nature mentioned in western media these days, are frankly, the very definition of First World Problems. What pronoun to address someone by, trying to convince me there are more than two genders, what bathrooms someone with a sex change should be allowed to use, why female athletes make less money than male ones. These are issues, that some people seriously try to act like, are just as serious, and just as important, as poor women in the Middle East being stoned to death for being sexually violated against their will, for just one example. The concept of Social Justice of course has merit, but it has been so watered down, and reduced to what I can only describe as cartoonish levels of short sighted buffoonery over issues that are anything but serious, that now we have "that group of people". The group of the people that fly off into a frothing rage at the mere mentioning of Social Justice, because they've had ridiculous non issues shoved down their throats for so long, and been told so many times how dire and oppressing these issues are, than when actual examples of oppression and vileness are presented, it is met with the same veneer of disdain, so numb have many become to the concept, and it is unfair, for everyone involved. The same situation I feel, is now seeping into how fans and devs interact. This woman created a giant S@$% Storm over absolutely nothing, because someone, who was a huge fan of hers, decided to -slightly- disagree, on a public platform. I also have no doubt that if said fan was female, the dev in question would have taken no issue with the comment at all, such is a sad, toxic reality of western social discourse at this time. The lines in the concrete are drawn, you either agree with X, or you are wrong. There is no more debate, there is no more discussion. There is only absolutes, and after all... "Only a Sith deals in absolutes".
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Post by SofaJockey on Jul 27, 2018 15:13:37 GMT
This woman created a giant S@$% Storm over absolutely nothing, because someone, who was a huge fan of hers, decided to -slightly- disagree, on a public platform. Was Jessica Price behaving like an ass? Yes, I think so. Did she deserve to be fired? No, I disagree with that. I'm not comfortable with words (as opposed to actions) being enough to kill your career.
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Post by therevanchist25 on Jul 27, 2018 15:57:16 GMT
This woman created a giant S@$% Storm over absolutely nothing, because someone, who was a huge fan of hers, decided to -slightly- disagree, on a public platform. Was Jessica Price behaving like an ass? Yes, I think so. Did she deserve to be fired? No, I disagree with that. I'm not comfortable with words (as opposed to actions) being enough to kill your career. So it's only abuse if the language used is of a more crass, less subtle nature? What this woman did, was verbally abuse an innocent customer who did nothing wrong, make no mistake. I never want anyone to get fired, I never celebrate someone losing their methods of supporting themselves. But that belief does not shield someone from consequences of their actions. The reality is, if you work at a company that deals with the public, and you decide to scream and rant at a customer for basically no reason, you're fired. Period. And I have a hard time understanding a mind-set that thinks such a person should remain employed.
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