Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 31, 2021 19:15:15 GMT
Indeed. As I said in another post, a returning protagonist has both pros and cons, and Ryder's mixed reception is definitely a con. You can be sure, 100%, that the returning Ryder, would be nothing like the Ryder we know. Which begs the question, if the fans of Ryder are OK with that, did they even care about the character to begin with, or did they just care about the name? Because the person simply won't be the same. Like having Alden Ehrenreich be Han Solo. The name's the same, the relationships are there, but it's just not the same person. Not even close. And I don't mean in terms of looks. Just look at the outrage over the difference between ME2 Mordin and ME3 Mordin
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 19:31:24 GMT
I don't think Shepard is really the thing that lead to the problems with the OT's endings, though. My major issue with Shepard is more due to the 'death' part in ME2, and that could've been avoided. I don't really care if we'd get Ryder or a new protagonist. I just think there are pros and cons in both approaches, and that it'll be funny that Bioware would find themselves with both kind of fans, those that want Shepard back and Ryder back, pissed at them. Not the only thing, no. But three games and five years and three games of "your choices matter" only to end up there really contributed. But it's not just the endings. It the companions, even the LIs of Shepard's getting effectively shelved from one game to the next. People were P*SSED at the treatment Liara, Kaidan, and Ashley got in ME2 (especially the latter two) and people were similarly angry at what happened to many of the ME2 companions being reduced to side missions, and not even temporary companions in ME3. Then there are other choices and missions implied to be important later which simply weren't: Getting your Spectre status back in ME2. Whether you hand the Cerberus information over to the SHadow Broker in ME1. WHo you nominate to be the human Councilor. Keeping or destroying the Collector Base. All these choices ended up being so much baggage that simply could not, or would not, be addressed. Those are all good points, but they're more related to the issues Bioware had in handling the choices and consequences in the OT. They could've done better, although they also needed more development time. I do agree that going for a new protagonist each time could help up a lot with those issues, as well as dealing with entirely different plots. But NME is still going to deal with some huge continuity issues regardless of the protagonist, so Bioware needs to step up in this department.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 31, 2021 19:43:12 GMT
You can be sure, 100%, that the returning Ryder, would be nothing like the Ryder we know. Which begs the question, if the fans of Ryder are OK with that, did they even care about the character to begin with, or did they just care about the name? Because the person simply won't be the same. Like having Alden Ehrenreich be Han Solo. The name's the same, the relationships are there, but it's just not the same person. Not even close. And I don't mean in terms of looks. Just look at the outrage over the difference between ME2 Mordin and ME3 Mordin Or over ME1 and ME2 Liara. Or ME1 and ME2 Tali.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 19:49:30 GMT
Indeed. As I said in another post, a returning protagonist has both pros and cons, and Ryder's mixed reception is definitely a con. You can be sure, 100%, that the returning Ryder, would be nothing like the Ryder we know. Which begs the question, if the fans of Ryder are OK with that, did they even care about the character to begin with, or did they just care about the name? Because the person simply won't be the same. Like having Alden Ehrenreich be Han Solo. The name's the same, the relationships are there, but it's just not the same person. Not even close. And I don't mean in terms of looks. To be fair, Alden's portrayal of Han Solo was the first time I actually really liked the character. Nothing against Harrison Ford, just didn't like Han Solo in the OT. But yes, I could easily see them bringing Ryder back as a Shepard 2.0 which would ruin a lot of what made me love Ryder far more than Shepard.
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Post by trinity0 on May 31, 2021 20:02:52 GMT
Ryder is not the protagonist of MEA. Thats SAM. Ryder is just its puppet
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 20:09:09 GMT
Ryder is not the protagonist of MEA. Thats SAM. Ryder is just its puppet Shepard is not the protagonist of ME1, 2, or 3. That's Anderson, TIM, and Hackett respectively. Shepard is just their puppet.
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The Elder King
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Post by The Elder King on May 31, 2021 20:21:05 GMT
Yeah, I get not liking Ryder, but the SAM-protagonist theory/criticism is just absurd to me.
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Iakus
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Post by Iakus on May 31, 2021 20:47:05 GMT
Yeah, I get not liking Ryder, but the SAM-protagonist theory/criticism is just absurd to me. It absolutely makes sense to me. SAM is the reason Ryder is a "do anything (but only three powers at a time) super-soldier SAM interacts with Remtech, not Ryder (at least, until the very end) SAM is the team member crucial to restoring the planets and getting the colonies up and running. Ryder is just th emeat suit required to get it in place. The only important thing Ryder brings to the table is the implant that SAM interfaces with. Ryder has no relevant skills, abilities, or knowledge necessary for the mission. Cora could have done just as good a job. It's like they took the complaints on how "special" humans were with the trilogy and ran as fast as they could the other way, making the human protagonist not special at all.
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Post by ClarkKent on May 31, 2021 21:02:46 GMT
Ryder can come back as long as SAM gets thrown in the bin.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 21:03:39 GMT
Yeah, I get not liking Ryder, but the SAM-protagonist theory/criticism is just absurd to me. It absolutely makes sense to me. SAM is the reason Ryder is a "do anything (but only three powers at a time) super-soldier SAM interacts with Remtech, not Ryder (at least, until the very end) SAM is the team member crucial to restoring the planets and getting the colonies up and running. Ryder is just th emeat suit required to get it in place. The only important thing Ryder brings to the table is the implant that SAM interfaces with. Ryder has no relevant skills, abilities, or knowledge necessary for the mission. Cora could have done just as good a job. It's like they took the complaints on how "special" humans were with the trilogy and ran as fast as they could the other way, making the human protagonist not special at all. Again, by that logic Shepard isn't the protagonist of their games either. Especially once EDI shows up, since Shepard would fail many times if not for her. Ryder also develops and ensures peace with the Angara, helps reconnect the Exiles with the Initiative, potentially does the same with the Krogan, saves tens of thousands of colonists, finds a homeworld for humanity, and of course stops the Archon and controls Remnant without SAM's help at the end. Oh yeah, they didn't do anything.
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Post by trinity0 on May 31, 2021 21:03:45 GMT
Ryder is not the protagonist of MEA. Thats SAM. Ryder is just its puppet Shepard is not the protagonist of ME1, 2, or 3. That's Anderson, TIM, and Hackett respectively. Shepard is just their puppet. They give Shepard only the Overall Goal but Shepard is doing the job on its own.
Ryder is doing nothing on its own. The fighting, the planet restoring and eveything else is SAMs doing. Without SAM, Ryder is a average person with average skills.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on May 31, 2021 21:11:06 GMT
Shepard is not the protagonist of ME1, 2, or 3. That's Anderson, TIM, and Hackett respectively. Shepard is just their puppet. They give Shepard only the Overall Goal but Shepard is doing the job on its own.
Ryder is doing nothing on its own. The fighting, the planet restoring and eveything else is SAMs doing. Without SAM, Ryder is a average person with average skills. And would fail numerous times without the aid of others, including very much their AI companion. Guess that means EDI is the protagonist of ME2/3. After all she does all this work and has the same goal as Shepard, and without her Shepard is just a soldier.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 31, 2021 21:47:33 GMT
And would fail numerous times without the aid of others, including very much their AI companion. Guess that means EDI is the protagonist of ME2/3. After all she does all this work and has the same goal as Shepard, and without her Shepard is just a soldier. You can't make that claim, without also saying it's true for every other squadmate in every other game and every thing that constitutes a war asset, in ME3. I think trinity0 says that about Ryder in the sense that, in the one mission he goes out without SAM, Ryder basically fails impressively and makes his father sacrifice his life for him. From then on, Ryder does an impressively better job at not just staying alive, until he loses SAM, but doing a boatload of dangerous missions. To the extent that we can't be sure that the person that achieves all that is Ryder, in the essence of the person prior to the merger with SAM, or if he is entirely dependent on SAM to achieve the things he does.
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Post by Noxluxe on May 31, 2021 22:11:29 GMT
And would fail numerous times without the aid of others, including very much their AI companion. Guess that means EDI is the protagonist of ME2/3. After all she does all this work and has the same goal as Shepard, and without her Shepard is just a soldier. "Just" one of the most determined and highly trained and dangerous, best connected and charismatic soldiers in the galaxy, yeah. The point is that without EDI or even Anderson and co. Shepard is still a decisive and competent individual who'll likely still make an impact against the major threat by other means, and without Shepard the others would be pretty screwed. Whereas without SAM, Ryder is an unqualified oversized teenager serving as a glorified grunt soldier for a scout team at best, and a red smear on the ground of Habitat 7 at worst. And without Ryder, SAM would just pass to Cora and the story would progress more or less identically, and potentially even more smoothly thanks to her superior experience and qualifications. There's nothing wrong with the hero using others' help to win the day, but if the hero's own skills or even character qualities have no relevance at all to their success then that makes them seem kind of pointless. Personally I don't mind that Ryder is a bit of an Average Joe. There's often a story worth telling in some poor schmuck who ends up in a situation where they're being swept along with no control and no agency except whether or not to allow it to happen serving as a vehicle for the story about the whole team. But for that to be really satisfying the character has to grow significantly from the experience, and demonstrate that when the time comes and they suddenly can't rely on anything but themselves again. An example of that would be Frodo from Lord of the Rings. A very weak and ordinary and inexperienced protagonist totally reliant on other characters to carry him through, who nonetheless gains the audience's respect through his courage and self-sacrifice whenever he's given the choice to back out and refuses because he wants to spare others the terrible responsibility that's being put on him, and ultimately shows that that compassion and resolve are forces for good in their own right. Andromeda's attempt to pay Ryder's nonexistent character arc of relying on SAM and then losing him off in that sense just falls pretty damn flat, leaving them mostly still feeling like a superfluous, replaceable rando by the end.
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Post by azarhal on May 31, 2021 22:47:43 GMT
So many bias in here.
Interesting that people ignore how Shepard was brought back to life as a cyborg or that EDI is ME2 macguffin without whom the game ends on Horizon (and save your ass a few times), but otherwise is just an info dump character (in ME2).
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 31, 2021 23:04:14 GMT
So many bias in here. Interesting that people ignore how Shepard was brought back to life as a cyborg or that EDI is ME2 macguffin without whom the game ends on Horizon (and save your ass a few times), but otherwise is just an info dump character (in ME2). We've already addressed that. And accounted for it.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 1, 2021 0:17:00 GMT
So many bias in here. Interesting that people ignore how Shepard was brought back to life as a cyborg or that EDI is ME2 macguffin without whom the game ends on Horizon (and save your ass a few times), but otherwise is just an info dump character (in ME2). Also a McGuffin is technically a plot item that exists only and entirely in order to drive the characters to move the plot forward, and not just a thing that's necessary for the plot to happen. EDI would be a McGuffin if ME2 was about Shepard and the Illusive man trying to keep her out of each other's hands, but she never actually did anything, for example. That's clearly not the case. I'm curious what you'd expect from an AI tool the protagonists have at their disposal that isn't 'saves their asses a few times and is otherwise an infodump character'. That's kind of the robot sidekick schtick. This idea that just because EDI performed her function in this or that situation means that it would all have ended in tears without her is also unsupported. Sure it's possible that Shepard and co. would have ended up dead, but there's no saying what other solutions they might have come up with in her absence, or what other preparations they might have made before any given mission knowing they couldn't rely on an AI to do their hacking for them. Meanwhile, we know for a fact that Andromeda would have been over within the first ten minutes if it wasn't for SAM, and it doesn't get better from there. The Angara and Kett are both stumped when it comes to interacting with Remnant technology, and the Nexus has exhausted itself trying to get the colonization effort started without a "pathfinder". SAM is the answer, and inexplicably the only answer, to both of those situations. Ryder might as well just be a walking USB stick.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 1, 2021 0:19:08 GMT
They give Shepard only the Overall Goal but Shepard is doing the job on its own.
Ryder is doing nothing on its own. The fighting, the planet restoring and eveything else is SAMs doing. Without SAM, Ryder is a average person with average skills. And would fail numerous times without the aid of others, including very much their AI companion. Guess that means EDI is the protagonist of ME2/3. After all she does all this work and has the same goal as Shepard, and without her Shepard is just a soldier. There is one big difference. The edibot can't kill Shepard like the sam thing can to Ryder. Sure it could shutoff the oxygen in the ship, but that would kill everyone onboard.
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Post by 10k on Jun 1, 2021 0:22:33 GMT
I'm interested to know where would people like the story of ME to go if both Shep and Ryder don't make a return. Personally I would rather ME focus more on the smaller things. I want to see more of the underground gritty stuff. If Shep don't return, I'd like a story of a small time mercenary band.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 1, 2021 0:24:38 GMT
I'm interested to know where would people like the story of ME to go if both Shep and Ryder don't make a return. Personally I would rather ME focus more on the smaller things. I want to see more of the underground gritty stuff. If Shep don't return, I'd like a story of a small time mercenary band. bsn.boards.net/post/974412/thread
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Post by Guardian on Jun 1, 2021 0:39:14 GMT
Personally I don't mind that Ryder is a bit of an Average Joe. There's often a story worth telling in some poor schmuck who ends up in a situation where they're being swept along with no control and no agency except whether or not to allow it to happen serving as a vehicle for the story about the whole team. But for that to be really satisfying the character has to grow significantly from the experience, and demonstrate that when the time comes and they suddenly can't rely on anything but themselves again. This is what Ryder feels like, but in no way should this be seen as bad. Just, own up to it; say that they are the Average Joe and without (in this case SAM) the item, they would be nothing. I think that's what they tried to do, or at the very least imply, in Andromeda. If it was, I don't think they got it across very clear. I know BioWare (or at least recall saying) that they wanted a Protag that started from nothing and became a hero, as opposed to Shepard who was already a hero and became a legend.
Yes, Shep had EDI, but it's already been mentioned before and how it's been accounted for.
There's nothing wrong with Ryder being the "Average Joe" protagonist. Just be up front about it and say that they are. Ryder probably could have gone over a bit better with those that didn't care for the twins if the comparison to a character like Frodo was made.
I know a few usual suspects on here that would despise Ryder no matter what (and I think a few of us know who I'm thinking of), but each their own.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 1, 2021 0:53:48 GMT
This idea that just because EDI performed her function in this or that situation means that it would all have ended in tears without her is also unsupported. Sure it's possible that Shepard and co. would have ended up dead, but there's no saying what other solutions they might have come up with in her absence, or what other preparations they might have made before any given mission knowing they couldn't rely on an AI to do their hacking for them. Meanwhile, we know for a fact that Andromeda would have been over within the first ten minutes if it wasn't for SAM, and it doesn't get better from there. What you are saying is that the writers would have written the plot differently had EDI not been there. The same thing applies to Andromeda, they would have written the plot differently had SAM not been there. Head cannoning that your Shepard could do it without EDI is just that, head cannoning. The games do not suggest Shepard had other solutions in those moments.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 1, 2021 3:36:55 GMT
So many bias in here. Interesting that people ignore how Shepard was brought back to life as a cyborg or that EDI is ME2 macguffin without whom the game ends on Horizon (and save your ass a few times), but otherwise is just an info dump character (in ME2). Believe me I was complaining about that back in 2010
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Post by themikefest on Jun 1, 2021 3:47:49 GMT
Shepard was able to stop Saren without having a hologram/platform.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 1, 2021 6:10:28 GMT
This idea that just because EDI performed her function in this or that situation means that it would all have ended in tears without her is also unsupported. Sure it's possible that Shepard and co. would have ended up dead, but there's no saying what other solutions they might have come up with in her absence, or what other preparations they might have made before any given mission knowing they couldn't rely on an AI to do their hacking for them. Meanwhile, we know for a fact that Andromeda would have been over within the first ten minutes if it wasn't for SAM, and it doesn't get better from there. What you are saying is that the writers would have written the plot differently had EDI not been there. The same thing applies to Andromeda, they would have written the plot differently had SAM not been there. Head cannoning that your Shepard could do it without EDI is just that, head cannoning. The games do not suggest Shepard had other solutions in those moments. Nonono, I'm saying that the characters would have acted differently if EDI hadn't been there, within the exact same plot and story parameters. And we have no conclusive proof that they'd lose. We know they're pretty damn capable and resourceful, and we know they wouldn't just have given up and stood there with their asses in their hands waiting to die because that would have been massively out of character for everybody. And we know that without SAM, that's pretty much what everyone would have done in Andromeda because we see it with our own eyes. The Nexus has given up and resigned itself to slowly perishing without a SAM to find a home for them, and the Angara are fighting a losing war of attrition while either ignoring or failing to investigate the huge network of Remnant technology they've always known existed because they don't have SAM. And falling from the sky with a malfunctioning jetpack you can't fix yourself simply isn't a survivable situation without a jetpack-fixing AI coincidentally installed on your implant. It's thoroughly demonstrated that SAM is the reason things work out at every level, whereas EDI is just a tool Shepard and co. use because she's helpful without necessarily being their only option outside those moment when she absolutely does save the day.
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