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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 1, 2021 7:17:10 GMT
What you are saying is that the writers would have written the plot differently had EDI not been there. The same thing applies to Andromeda, they would have written the plot differently had SAM not been there. Head cannoning that your Shepard could do it without EDI is just that, head cannoning. The games do not suggest Shepard had other solutions in those moments. Nonono, I'm saying that the characters would have acted differently if EDI hadn't been there, within the exact same plot and story parameters. And we have no conclusive proof that they'd lose. We know they're pretty damn capable and resourceful, and we know they wouldn't just have given up and stood there with their asses in their hands waiting to die because that would have been massively out of character for everybody. And we know that without SAM, that's pretty much what everyone would have done in Andromeda because we see it with our own eyes. The Nexus has given up and resigned itself to slowly perishing without a SAM to find a home for them, and the Angara are fighting a losing war of attrition while either ignoring or failing to investigate the huge network of Remnant technology they've always known existed because they don't have SAM. And falling from the sky with a malfunctioning jetpack you can't fix yourself simply isn't a survivable situation without a jetpack-fixing AI coincidentally installed on your implant. It's thoroughly demonstrated that SAM is the reason things work out at every level, whereas EDI is just a tool Shepard and co. use because she's helpful without necessarily being their only option outside those moment when she absolutely does save the day. I can easily think of three instances where without EDI Shepard and Co would have died and the mission failed and the game makes that clear. First was Horizon, where EDI was needed to get the colony defense turrets operational. It’s established people, even those skilled for that, were having trouble, and without her they never would have come online thus the Collector ship would have taken all of Horizon with Shepard included. Second was the Collector ship. Shepard and Co were trapped on a floating platform as wave after wave of Collectors came after them. Without her they would have killed Shepard or at best they died of dehydration and starvation up there. Third is when the Normandy is attacked. Without her, the ship would have been taken and the only way to go through the Omega-4 Relay would have been lost. Mission over. And that’s just three cases just in ME2. There are more in that game and definitely more in ME3, like her targeting systems allowing us to kill two Reaper Destroyers where otherwise those missions failed. Or infiltrating Cronus Station where without her “Cerberus would have vented the hangar.” Meanwhile there are many instances where Ryder saves the day and does incredible things without SAM, which I’ve already listed before. And them no longer needing SAM was even a part of the character arc with the finale having them do everything SAM helped with without him. They even defeated the villain who was using him. This whole argument is stupid, especially since teamwork is a huge theme in both protagonist’s stories. Shepard and Ryder can only do what they do because of their comrades and friends, their AIs included. There are very few protagonists in any games, or any medium for that matter, that don’t need some help, but according to this argument that makes them not protagonists but just puppets of others.
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Post by t4rget on Jun 1, 2021 8:16:53 GMT
What you are saying is that the writers would have written the plot differently had EDI not been there. The same thing applies to Andromeda, they would have written the plot differently had SAM not been there. Head cannoning that your Shepard could do it without EDI is just that, head cannoning. The games do not suggest Shepard had other solutions in those moments. Nonono, I'm saying that the characters would have acted differently if EDI hadn't been there, within the exact same plot and story parameters. And we have no conclusive proof that they'd lose. We know they're pretty damn capable and resourceful, and we know they wouldn't just have given up and stood there with their asses in their hands waiting to die because that would have been massively out of character for everybody. And we know that without SAM, that's pretty much what everyone would have done in Andromeda because we see it with our own eyes. The Nexus has given up and resigned itself to slowly perishing without a SAM to find a home for them, and the Angara are fighting a losing war of attrition while either ignoring or failing to investigate the huge network of Remnant technology they've always known existed because they don't have SAM. And falling from the sky with a malfunctioning jetpack you can't fix yourself simply isn't a survivable situation without a jetpack-fixing AI coincidentally installed on your implant. It's thoroughly demonstrated that SAM is the reason things work out at every level, whereas EDI is just a tool Shepard and co. use because she's helpful without necessarily being their only option outside those moment when she absolutely does save the day. The point is interesting. If things were different, they wouldn't be the same.
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Post by Noxluxe on Jun 1, 2021 8:33:59 GMT
I can easily think of three instances where without EDI Shepard and Co would have died and the mission failed and the game makes that clear. First was Horizon, where EDI was needed to get the colony defense turrets operational. It’s established people, even those skilled for that, were having trouble, and without her they never would have come online thus the Collector ship would have taken all of Horizon with Shepard included. Second was the Collector ship. Shepard and Co were trapped on a floating platform as wave after wave of Collectors came after them. Without her they would have killed Shepard or at best they died of dehydration and starvation up there. Third is when the Normandy is attacked. Without her, the ship would have been taken and the only way to go through the Omega-4 Relay would have been lost. Mission over. And that’s just three cases just in ME2. There are more in that game and definitely more in ME3, like her targeting systems allowing us to kill two Reaper Destroyers where otherwise those missions failed. Or infiltrating Cronus Station where without her “Cerberus would have vented the hangar.” Meanwhile there are many instances where Ryder saves the day and does incredible things without SAM, which I’ve already listed before. And them no longer needing SAM was even a part of the character arc with the finale having them do everything SAM helped with without him. They even defeated the villain who was using him. This whole argument is stupid, especially since teamwork is a huge theme in both protagonist’s stories. Shepard and Ryder can only do what they do because of their comrades and friends, their AIs included. There are very few protagonists in any games, or any medium for that matter, that don’t need some help, but according to this argument that makes them not protagonists but just puppets of others. Again, the point isn't whether EDI or SAM is necessary for the plot or whether the heroes need help to succeed at some point, it's how much agency and competence the main characters have beyond their AI presence, or compared to any other character, and so how necessary they are to the plot. Without EDI: Shepard is a galactic hero and one of the most decorated soldiers in history who stopped an alien invasion and gave the galaxy time to prepare - that they didn't use, but that's not a fault of Shepard's competence, and presumably dies (again) while fighting heroically to save humanity from the Collectors. Without SAM: Ryder hits the ground of Habitat 7 at terminal velocity ten minutes into the game before ever finding out what's going on and is instantly succeeded by either Cora or their grieving father, more experienced and better suited protagonists who nonetheless still end up getting gunned down while fiddling with weird alien tech they can't interface with because SAM. Please take a moment to consider how long this post would be if I played through Andromeda and listed even half the moments where Ryder would have ended up standing around looking like an idiot at best with no way forward if SAM hadn't been there to do the thing. Then compare that to the "many" instances you say you've listed of Ryder doing "incredible things" without SAM. The only one that comes to my mind is the controlling-the-Remnant one after they lose the connection, and we have no idea how easy or difficult that would have been for anyone else to achieve in Ryder's shoes because the mechanics of it are never explained. It looks cool, sure, but the moment is incredibly shallow and impossible to draw anything from. The most you can reasonably give them credit for there without headcanon is not immediately giving up, which is something, but it's not exactly heroic all by itself. I agree that the argument is stupid, it's patently obvious that Shepard and Ryder are very different kinds of protagonists, and that Ryder's journey required a narrative finesse to pull off satisfyingly that Bioware just didn't manage in a lot of players' estimations, whereas it resonated with you for whatever reason. I personally found the "character arc" incredibly clumsily executed and meaningless even though I started out pretty optimistic about the idea, and mostly enjoyed the character in the early game. I'm way more open to future games building on Ryder's character than I'd be to Bioware hauling Shepard out of retirement when their story is already done and finished to my own satisfaction, but a fresh new character would probably be best if the game is set in the Milky Way.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 1, 2021 10:31:31 GMT
So, I've been thinking about live elements, what they mean, why we have them, why we often hate them... and i realized what I would have loved if Bioware tried with the next DA or ME game. So, usually the main point of live elements is keeping the game "alive" with an active playerbase for an extended period of time. This serves a multitude of purposes: it retains the playerbase, keeping them from moving on to another game, which in turn makes selling any microtransactions more popular but also an active game is going to be talked about and spread more (meaning more new players, which in turn equals more sales). But instead of doing daily quests or whatever bullshit that was talked about I'm going to suggest something else.
Release a good modding tool. Look at Skyrim, one of the most successful and popular RPG games of all time - let's be honest, in it's original form it's not that impressive. It's an open world sandbox game seasoned with some story and a multitude of bugs. But the modding community has basically taken over the game and made it a playground rife with creativity. It's kept people engaged for years, allowing Bethesda to repackage and sell the game over and over while still having the game loved and respected. This is what we need for DA and ME, we need a reason to revisit the game for fun and to enjoy new experiences, not to grind. By releasing a modding tool it would make life easier for modders, make more people engage in modding, and breath new life into the world. People would want to play with new fun stats on their armors, new enemies that can en encountered in new quests, maybe experience additional romance scenes. They could have community events where people submit their mods in competitions, again engaging the community and likely spreading the word of the game over social media.
So again, please Bioware, I get that it might not be easy... but consider releasing a modding tool for your next games. I know playing DA:O with mods made me fall in love with the game all over again.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 1, 2021 11:33:04 GMT
. First was Horizon, where EDI was needed to get the colony defense turrets operational. It’s established people, even those skilled for that, were having trouble, and without her they never would have come online thus the Collector ship would have taken all of Horizon with Shepard included. Is that true? It seemed like Shepard was taking care of the bugs without too much trouble. And since the bugs were busy trying to stop Shepard, all the colonists would not have been taken. Possibly, but since Shepard has the special spectre omni tool that can unlock anything, she/he may have been able to override the system. I guess that means Moreau is just a crappy pilot who panics in a tough situation. Remember the beginning of ME2? He says brace for evasive maneuvers yet flies into yellow beam of death. I don't agree with that. Just have what it did on the collector ship. It unlocks a door. It could do that for Shepard when he/she is on Cronos. Does that mean the next game, if little Ryder were to return, there would be no sam thing in the game? Does that also mean no profile system? Are you sure about that? Look at the peepee asari. She's not a team player. She believes in the I player. Apparently the little one is ok with that. So what happened? Did the duck forget about that? Wait a minute. It's the I don't care attitude from the duck. You say AI's included, but Shepard never needed one to stop Saren.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 1, 2021 13:05:18 GMT
So, I've been thinking about live elements, what they mean, why we have them, why we often hate them... and i realized what I would have loved if Bioware tried with the next DA or ME game. So, usually the main point of live elements is keeping the game "alive" with an active playerbase for an extended period of time. This serves a multitude of purposes: it retains the playerbase, keeping them from moving on to another game, which in turn makes selling any microtransactions more popular but also an active game is going to be talked about and spread more (meaning more new players, which in turn equals more sales). But instead of doing daily quests or whatever bullshit that was talked about I'm going to suggest something else. Release a good modding tool. Look at Skyrim, one of the most successful and popular RPG games of all time - let's be honest, in it's original form it's not that impressive. It's an open world sandbox game seasoned with some story and a multitude of bugs. But the modding community has basically taken over the game and made it a playground rife with creativity. It's kept people engaged for years, allowing Bethesda to repackage and sell the game over and over while still having the game loved and respected. This is what we need for DA and ME, we need a reason to revisit the game for fun and to enjoy new experiences, not to grind. By releasing a modding tool it would make life easier for modders, make more people engage in modding, and breath new life into the world. People would want to play with new fun stats on their armors, new enemies that can en encountered in new quests, maybe experience additional romance scenes. They could have community events where people submit their mods in competitions, again engaging the community and likely spreading the word of the game over social media. So again, please Bioware, I get that it might not be easy... but consider releasing a modding toold for your next games. I know playing DA:O with mods made me fall in love with the game all over again. I don't want to rain on your parade, but out of the two Bioware titles that qualify for the "live service" moniker, Anthem is dead, with no content coming, after a failure of a launch and ToR, which has the SW license, took something like 7 years to turn a profit, has had very little content added to it, for a live service, in the almost 10 year lifespan it has had. They're also not going to release modding tools. Especially for Frostbite. It's not about something being easy, but mostly about what EA allows them to do and how fast they can make content. They can't. The development process has become too complicated and the studios have lost a lot of manpower over the years that even with support studios at their disposal, which, as the Schreier article told us, don't particularly help Bioware much, Anthem had its entire roadmap scrapped and a single piece of content released, 6 months after launch. In the meantime, no other project was being worked on. Now, it is possible that the situation has changed drastically, so much so that a single team working on any title may be as large as the entire team working on Anthem, which was the entirety of the Edmonton studio, minus 7 people that were working on DA4 pre-production. And even so, 18 months of excessive crunch, to produce an Anthem quality product, whether a full release or expansion. To put it another way, Bioware would need to produce content similarly to how WoW rolls out its content, or Destiny 2. And Bungie is a studio comprised of ~600 people, all working on Destiny. The entirety of Edmonton, during Anthem's development was ~350-150, depending on people on stress leave and others just walking out. You'd need to double the entire studio's peak staff, just to work on maintaining DA4 alive, not even getting to ME: Will Continue's development, which will be another live service and will require another 600-700 people working on it. And all that, while Austin also bolstering the ToR team. Not saying it's all impossible, just not looking particularly likely. Anything can change, anything can happen, but that's just the scope of things, currently.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 1, 2021 13:12:10 GMT
SirSourpussWhy you do this? Let the bunny-girl dream... In case it wasn't clear though, I don't particularly like live elements, but I do like modding and what it does for the community, so I just figured it would be a nice replacement.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 1, 2021 13:22:13 GMT
Nonono, I'm saying that the characters would have acted differently if EDI hadn't been there, within the exact same plot and story parameters. And we have no conclusive proof that they'd lose. We know they're pretty damn capable and resourceful, and we know they wouldn't just have given up and stood there with their asses in their hands waiting to die because that would have been massively out of character for everybody. And we know that without SAM, that's pretty much what everyone would have done in Andromeda because we see it with our own eyes. The Nexus has given up and resigned itself to slowly perishing without a SAM to find a home for them, and the Angara are fighting a losing war of attrition while either ignoring or failing to investigate the huge network of Remnant technology they've always known existed because they don't have SAM. And falling from the sky with a malfunctioning jetpack you can't fix yourself simply isn't a survivable situation without a jetpack-fixing AI coincidentally installed on your implant. It's thoroughly demonstrated that SAM is the reason things work out at every level, whereas EDI is just a tool Shepard and co. use because she's helpful without necessarily being their only option outside those moment when she absolutely does save the day. I can easily think of three instances where without EDI Shepard and Co would have died and the mission failed and the game makes that clear. First was Horizon, where EDI was needed to get the colony defense turrets operational. It’s established people, even those skilled for that, were having trouble, and without her they never would have come online thus the Collector ship would have taken all of Horizon with Shepard included. Second was the Collector ship. Shepard and Co were trapped on a floating platform as wave after wave of Collectors came after them. Without her they would have killed Shepard or at best they died of dehydration and starvation up there. Third is when the Normandy is attacked. Without her, the ship would have been taken and the only way to go through the Omega-4 Relay would have been lost. Mission over. And that’s just three cases just in ME2. There are more in that game and definitely more in ME3, like her targeting systems allowing us to kill two Reaper Destroyers where otherwise those missions failed. Or infiltrating Cronus Station where without her “Cerberus would have vented the hangar.” Meanwhile there are many instances where Ryder saves the day and does incredible things without SAM, which I’ve already listed before. And them no longer needing SAM was even a part of the character arc with the finale having them do everything SAM helped with without him. They even defeated the villain who was using him. This whole argument is stupid, especially since teamwork is a huge theme in both protagonist’s stories. Shepard and Ryder can only do what they do because of their comrades and friends, their AIs included. There are very few protagonists in any games, or any medium for that matter, that don’t need some help, but according to this argument that makes them not protagonists but just puppets of others. EDI does not, however, run Shepard's cybernetics or combat capability, nor is responsible for Shepard's biotics capabilities (if any) Nor did EDI have the Cipher or Prothean beacon in her mind, nor is responsible for Shepard having either. Nor is EDI needed to interact with every single MacGuffin in the trilogy.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 1, 2021 13:53:58 GMT
SirSourpuss Why you do this? Let the bunny-girl dream... In case it wasn't clear though, I don't particularly like live elements, but I do like modding and what it does for the community, so I just figured it would be a nice replacement. I didn't mean to. But EA releasing modding tools for DA4, would be the first instance of any EA game doing so, since DA:O, if I recall. So 12 years ago. It seems that modding tools are an endeavor that EA isn't even looking to examine and if they did, they'd probably spearhead it with a Respawn title, as they are currently EA's most trusted studio and one that keeps pushing for gamer friendly consumer practices. Unfortunately, EA is gonna EA. Someone has to make it and be successful, before it becomes standard EA practice. And I don't think Respawn care much for modding tools, to push for them. EA wants internal data and they can't get data of something none of their studios do. If it happens, I will be surprised and overjoyed. I just don't expect it to. I've got no problem with live elements. If ME2 had a live service like AssCreed Odyssey, I probably never would have moved out of the game. And Odyssey did a fantastic job, even allowing for user created content. I'd grind my party and my gear, get all the legendary armour and weapon sets, fit my entire squad and I don't care if I've finished the story content. Or maybe I never would and get stuck in that time in ME for literally ever. And, mind, I'm not saying that because I believe ME2 is the best game ever, or even a great game. I just never had as much fun with any other game out there, as much as I had with ME2. It's also the best received Mass Effect from critics and players. Just being in the company of those people and visiting the more Cyberpunk hub of Omega was all I wanted. If I'd want more moments with the team, more interactions, more romance, someone would make the content, in game. It wouldn't be voiced, but it wouldn't matter, if it were good writing. And I still bought the season pass thingies for Odyssey, in spite of the user content. Surprisingly ME1 is more fit to accommodate that style of live service, than ME2. Now, perhaps, that is exactly how DA4 will handle its live service, copy Odyssey and that'd be great. But it depends on whether you want to spend your time in the company of these people that will surround you and the world in general. And on top of that, to work just as well, for enough people to keep the entire service up and running. It's ... not easy.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 1, 2021 23:11:31 GMT
So I'm looking at this again And I know, I know, but look at the colour pattern. I mean, who uses that? Anybody have any clue? I'm almost certain I saw it somewhere. I just can't put my finger on it. I guess we'll never know. Ah, well. Worth a try, I guess.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 1, 2021 23:58:10 GMT
Yep, Cerberus. Like I've posted before. Cerberus will play a major role if there's another game in Andromeda.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 2, 2021 1:48:44 GMT
Speaking of, I have to admit I'm surprised they didn't change the armor on the Cerberus people we fight to white and orange. Also loled at how their ship "didn't have any noticeable markings" only for ME2/3 they have it slapped on every surface possible.
But please, no. For all that is good in this world, do not use Cerberus yet again Bioware.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 2, 2021 2:26:00 GMT
But please, no. For all that is good in this world, do not use Cerberus yet again Bioware. But Cerberus is good. Look at what they did in ME2. Without them, Shepard wouldn't have destroyed the reapers leaving them to harvest the galaxy. They provided the rsources and ship for Shepard to use to take down the collectors. They were innocent victims in ME3 used to do bad thing by the reapers.. Once the galaxy realizes that, Cerberus will be back to the greatness they were before ME3. As TIM says. Cerberus isn't an organization or the people behind it. Cerberus is an idea. That idea is not so easily destroyed.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 2, 2021 2:31:19 GMT
But please, no. For all that is good in this world, do not use Cerberus yet again Bioware. But Cerberus is good. Look at what they did in ME2. Without them, Shepard wouldn't have destroyed the reapers leaving them to harvest the galaxy. They provided the rsources and ship for Shepard to use to take down the collectors. They were innocent victims in ME3 used to do bad thing by the reapers.. Once the galaxy realizes that, Cerberus will be back to the greatness they were before ME3. As TIM says. Cerberus isn't an organization or the people behind it. Cerberus is an idea. That idea is not so easily destroyed. *looks at all the evil things they do in ME2 and around that time* My point stands. And even if good, they were still overused. Just like you think Liara is overused and don’t want her again. And good luck having the galaxy see Cerberus, who did plenty of things not controlled by the Reapers such as the Holocaust at Sanctuary, as anything but evil.
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Post by azarhal on Jun 2, 2021 2:31:37 GMT
Speaking of, I have to admit I'm surprised they didn't change the armor on the Cerberus people we fight to white and orange. Also loled at how their ship "didn't have any noticeable markings" only for ME2/3 they have it slapped on every surface possible. But please, no. For all that is good in this world, do not use Cerberus yet again Bioware. They market themselves worst than any of the corporations in the setting. It's like they are desperate for membership.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 2, 2021 2:36:01 GMT
But Cerberus is good. Look at what they did in ME2. Without them, Shepard wouldn't have destroyed the reapers leaving them to harvest the galaxy. They provided the rsources and ship for Shepard to use to take down the collectors. They were innocent victims in ME3 used to do bad thing by the reapers.. Once the galaxy realizes that, Cerberus will be back to the greatness they were before ME3. As TIM says. Cerberus isn't an organization or the people behind it. Cerberus is an idea. That idea is not so easily destroyed. *looks at all the evil things they do in ME2 and around that time* My point stands. And even if good, they were still overused. Just like you think Liara is overused and don’t want her again. And good luck having the galaxy see Cerberus, who did plenty of things not controlled by the Reapers such as the Holocaust at Sanctuary, as anything but evil. After the galaxy learns what the asari failed to do, they won't give a second thought about Cerberus. They will understand Cerberus were under reaper control. The asari can't use that excuse.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 2, 2021 2:55:17 GMT
*looks at all the evil things they do in ME2 and around that time* My point stands. And even if good, they were still overused. Just like you think Liara is overused and don’t want her again. And good luck having the galaxy see Cerberus, who did plenty of things not controlled by the Reapers such as the Holocaust at Sanctuary, as anything but evil. After the galaxy learns what the asari failed to do, they won't give a second thought about Cerberus. They will understand Cerberus were under reaper control. The asari can't use that excuse. No, they will still rightfully hate Cerberus. Some of the Asari leaders kept a secret that hampered the war, same as pretty much every other race’s leadership. Cerberus meanwhile committed far worse acts and were a lot more known. Again, if the Asari are punished for that then humanity is screwed when it comes to punishments.
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Guardian
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Post by Guardian on Jun 2, 2021 5:22:22 GMT
After the galaxy learns what the asari failed to do, they won't give a second thought about Cerberus. They will understand Cerberus were under reaper control. The asari can't use that excuse. No, they will still rightfully hate Cerberus. Some of the Asari leaders kept a secret that hampered the war, same as pretty much every other race’s leadership. Cerberus meanwhile committed far worse acts and were a lot more known. Again, if the Asari are punished for that then humanity is screwed when it comes to punishments.
Yep....and we all know who to thank for that.
TIMmy and Cerberus....so glad I always blow up the base and tell him to go to Hell at the end of ME2. I have no desire to be forced to work with terrorists again.
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Post by The Elder King on Jun 2, 2021 10:09:18 GMT
If they're not going to bring any element from the OT in NME except Liara, I honestly doubt they'd bring back Cerberus. If Mac Walters was in charge, I'd be a bit more worried.
But overall, I'm not going to form any expectations in regards of what organizations and plots would turn up in NME.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 2, 2021 10:34:30 GMT
What has surprised me the most sometimes when reading people's comments about a new ME is how many basically want all the big elements back from the OT - Shepard, the companions, Reapers, you name it. Like, I feel like I want to move on at this point. I feel like Shepard had their story come to a conclusion, and the Reapers coming back again after all that in ME3 would probably make me roll my eyes at the lack of creativity. And imagine Shepard being resurrected one more time, potentially hundreds of years into the future... I'd be like, give them a break and let them have some well deserved rest, that resurrection shtick felt pretty contrived already in ME2 and does not need a repeat. At the very most I'd accept them making a clone, but given the what happened in the Citadel... ugh.
I want a new story with mostly new characters, not that I wouldn't mind the occasional cameo if they make sense. I'd also be up for a more DA2-ish type of story - lesser scope but more personal. The lore is so advanced at this point I'm sure we could have many such interesting stories without our whole existence being on the line.
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Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2021 13:22:55 GMT
What has surprised me the most sometimes when reading people's comments about a new ME is how many basically want all the big elements back from the OT - Shepard, the companions, Reapers, you name it. Like, I feel like I want to move on at this point. I feel like Shepard had their story come to a conclusion, and the Reapers coming back again after all that in ME3 would probably make me roll my eyes at the lack of creativity. And imagine Shepard being resurrected one more time, potentially hundreds of years into the future... I'd be like, give them a break and let them have some well deserved rest, that resurrection shtick felt pretty contrived already in ME2 and does not need a repeat. At the very most I'd accept them making a clone, but given the what happened in the Citadel... ugh. I want a new story with mostly new characters, not that I wouldn't mind the occasional cameo if they make sense. I'd also be up for a more DA2-ish type of story - lesser scope but more personal. The lore is so advanced at this point I'm sure we could have many such interesting stories without our whole existence being on the line. It's almost like ME3 (and the Extended Cut) didn't bring the "clarity and closure" that players needed...
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Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2021 14:15:08 GMT
Personally I don't mind that Ryder is a bit of an Average Joe. There's often a story worth telling in some poor schmuck who ends up in a situation where they're being swept along with no control and no agency except whether or not to allow it to happen serving as a vehicle for the story about the whole team. But for that to be really satisfying the character has to grow significantly from the experience, and demonstrate that when the time comes and they suddenly can't rely on anything but themselves again. This is what Ryder feels like, but in no way should this be seen as bad. Just, own up to it; say that they are the Average Joe and without (in this case SAM) the item, they would be nothing. I think that's what they tried to do, or at the very least imply, in Andromeda. If it was, I don't think they got it across very clear. I know BioWare (or at least recall saying) that they wanted a Protag that started from nothing and became a hero, as opposed to Shepard who was already a hero and became a legend.
Yes, Shep had EDI, but it's already been mentioned before and how it's been accounted for.
There's nothing wrong with Ryder being the "Average Joe" protagonist. Just be up front about it and say that they are. Ryder probably could have gone over a bit better with those that didn't care for the twins if the comparison to a character like Frodo was made.
I know a few usual suspects on here that would despise Ryder no matter what (and I think a few of us know who I'm thinking of), but each their own.
Also doesn't help that the Ryder/SAM merging is essentially another subtle-as-a-brick "Synthesis is AWESOME!" message...
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Post by Iakus on Jun 2, 2021 14:16:24 GMT
So many bias in here. Interesting that people ignore how Shepard was brought back to life as a cyborg or that EDI is ME2 macguffin without whom the game ends on Horizon (and save your ass a few times), but otherwise is just an info dump character (in ME2). Also a McGuffin is technically a plot item that exists only and entirely in order to drive the characters to move the plot forward, and not just a thing that's necessary for the plot to happen. EDI would be a McGuffin if ME2 was about Shepard and the Illusive man trying to keep her out of each other's hands, but she never actually did anything, for example. That's clearly not the case. I'm curious what you'd expect from an AI tool the protagonists have at their disposal that isn't 'saves their asses a few times and is otherwise an infodump character'. That's kind of the robot sidekick schtick. This idea that just because EDI performed her function in this or that situation means that it would all have ended in tears without her is also unsupported. Sure it's possible that Shepard and co. would have ended up dead, but there's no saying what other solutions they might have come up with in her absence, or what other preparations they might have made before any given mission knowing they couldn't rely on an AI to do their hacking for them. Meanwhile, we know for a fact that Andromeda would have been over within the first ten minutes if it wasn't for SAM, and it doesn't get better from there. The Angara and Kett are both stumped when it comes to interacting with Remnant technology, and the Nexus has exhausted itself trying to get the colonization effort started without a "pathfinder". SAM is the answer, and inexplicably the only answer, to both of those situations. Ryder might as well just be a walking USB stick. I'm going to use this comparison from now on!
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Post by ClarkKent on Jun 2, 2021 15:24:29 GMT
What has surprised me the most sometimes when reading people's comments about a new ME is how many basically want all the big elements back from the OT - Shepard, the companions, Reapers, you name it. Like, I feel like I want to move on at this point. I feel like Shepard had their story come to a conclusion, and the Reapers coming back again after all that in ME3 would probably make me roll my eyes at the lack of creativity. And imagine Shepard being resurrected one more time, potentially hundreds of years into the future... I'd be like, give them a break and let them have some well deserved rest, that resurrection shtick felt pretty contrived already in ME2 and does not need a repeat. At the very most I'd accept them making a clone, but given the what happened in the Citadel... ugh. I want a new story with mostly new characters, not that I wouldn't mind the occasional cameo if they make sense. I'd also be up for a more DA2-ish type of story - lesser scope but more personal. The lore is so advanced at this point I'm sure we could have many such interesting stories without our whole existence being on the line. Agreed. I would hate for Shepard to become the 'Link' or 'Super Mario' of Mass Effect games. The main character of the Mass Effect universe has always been the universe itself.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 2, 2021 15:42:16 GMT
Yep, Cerberus. Like I've posted before. Cerberus will play a major role if there's another game in Andromeda. I think this tells a lot about Ark 6, the Benefactor and Cora Harper. I expect this to be Cerberus reinforcements, all fully weaponized and attack ready. Whether the Initiative managed to establish a peaceful arrangement with whatever civilizations they hoped to find in Andromeda, or whether they got BTFO'd by the aliens there, the Cerberus Ark could come in, guns blazing and establish 'uman supremacy against the unarmed, unprepared Initiative, in the event of a peaceful coexistence, or show up as saviours, in the event of not friendly aliens. Also, the Relay would allow for more Cerberus reinforcements coming in from the Milky Way. Provided that Ark 6 caries a 2 way, or even 1 way, relay along with it. The Kett where never that great, as villains, to stand on their own. It wouldn't make sense to have a bigger threat to the Kett, to just pop up in the cluster, that is indigenous to Andromeda, but just fucked off for the entirety of the game, only to show up in the sequel, only to then have an even bigger threat show up in the next game, when that doesn't live up to expectations, etc. etc., while also adding an extra ark per game and just getting Liara more involved again. Man, the Cerberus direction looks like the only interesting way out for Andromeda, doesn't it?
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