Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 29, 2021 22:09:12 GMT
The Reapers could be limited to the Local Group (Milky Way, Andromeda, Triangulum, and the various dwarf galaxies). They just spend the 50,000 years going to those, so all are still together, while other galactic clusters are seen as too far to worry about. They'd only be limited in the time it would take for them to get there. I mean, think about it. The Reapers are convinced that "the created will always turn on the created", that synthetics will surpass and destroy organics. Always. And it is their duty to "protect" organics from this. So, logically, synthetics from OUTSIDE the galaxy would be a threat to organics as well. And if intergalactic travel is possible (as we know now it is) then the possibility of synthetics i nother galaxies making the journey to the Milky Way and destroying organics is a possibility the Reapers need to take into account. Conclusion: Reapers need to harvest organics in other galaxies to ensure they don't build synthetics that would wipe out organics in ANY galaxy.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jun 29, 2021 23:16:04 GMT
Conclusion: Reapers need to harvest organics in other galaxies to ensure they don't build synthetics that would wipe out organics in ANY galaxy. Therefore, they'd have to enforce it in all the galaxies, across the universe, no exception can be made.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2021 23:52:57 GMT
So, I rewatched the teaser for ME: Next and it got me thinking... we've kinda assumed that Liara is next to what remains of Shepard after they (assumingly) destroyed the Reapers (which would make sense because of the damaged relay, although that one could potentially just be a reference to Arrival). However, this would make a destruction low-EMS cannon, and I'm still not convinced that's what Bioware wants. So, what if Liara is actually only revisiting Alchera and the place she found Shepards body as a form of homage to her former comrade (potentially lover)? After all, the remains look pretty hollow from what can be seen in the trailer, and since this is one thing at least that happened to every Shepard it wouldn't break cannon (aside of course from Liara being alive when in a few instances she can be dead but that's another story). What do you guys think? If this is true it would likely confirm Shepard not having any impact on the story other than mostly mentions (which I'd honestly like). I guess maaaaaybe it's also possible she's going back to get DNA to make another Shepard clone, but honestly that would feel kinda restrictive from a role-playing perspective. That;s where I'm leaning currently. After passing the relay and all that battle debris (which can be explained as debris from the battle for earth before the Crucible is fired and is not necessarily indicative of the Destroy ending), the image in the trailer veers back out into space and we're looking at another nebula before leveling off to land on a planet.
The planet we land on could be earth, but there is nothing in the image that says it's definitively earth. Alchera is a snowy planet, so the piece of helmet Liara finds could be from Shepard's old armor from ME1.
Yes, there is a Reaper in the image... So, yes, it could mean that Liara is on earth... but it normally doesn't snow that much in London - so if it is earth, something very wrong as happened with the sun and the weather... which could also account for "dead" reapers even if the Destroy ending was not chosen. It's also possible that the Reaper in the background is not dead. It's also possible, since the Reapers attacked in every cluster in the galaxy, that others were taken down in the course of regular fighting over the course of the Reaper war... so the planet could still also be Alchera.
The reality is... we don't yet know because Bioware hasn't revealed everything yet.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 2:11:33 GMT
The Reapers could be limited to the Local Group (Milky Way, Andromeda, Triangulum, and the various dwarf galaxies). They just spend the 50,000 years going to those, so all are still together, while other galactic clusters are seen as too far to worry about. They'd only be limited in the time it would take for them to get there. I mean, think about it. The Reapers are convinced that "the created will always turn on the created", that synthetics will surpass and destroy organics. Always. And it is their duty to "protect" organics from this. So, logically, synthetics from OUTSIDE the galaxy would be a threat to organics as well. And if intergalactic travel is possible (as we know now it is) then the possibility of synthetics i nother galaxies making the journey to the Milky Way and destroying organics is a possibility the Reapers need to take into account. Conclusion: Reapers need to harvest organics in other galaxies to ensure they don't build synthetics that would wipe out organics in ANY galaxy. True, however they can't be out there too long or else the life in galaxies like the Milky Way would advance too far and bring about the annihilations they were created to prevent. So they do as many as they can in the 50,000 year cycle, focusing their efforts there while perhaps eventually sending some out to other galaxies beyond that range. Those ones would be too far out to worry about, since either they receive the message they don't need to anymore (Synthesis) or under new management (Control) or by the time they get back to us it's been thousands of years and we've advanced to the point they aren't the apocalyptic threat they were in ME3 anymore. And that's just one possibility. There are others, like the Leviathans wanting them to just focus on places they see could affect them hence only the Local Group.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 2:13:50 GMT
So, I rewatched the teaser for ME: Next and it got me thinking... we've kinda assumed that Liara is next to what remains of Shepard after they (assumingly) destroyed the Reapers (which would make sense because of the damaged relay, although that one could potentially just be a reference to Arrival). However, this would make a destruction low-EMS cannon, and I'm still not convinced that's what Bioware wants. So, what if Liara is actually only revisiting Alchera and the place she found Shepards body as a form of homage to her former comrade (potentially lover)? After all, the remains look pretty hollow from what can be seen in the trailer, and since this is one thing at least that happened to every Shepard it wouldn't break cannon (aside of course from Liara being alive when in a few instances she can be dead but that's another story). What do you guys think? If this is true it would likely confirm Shepard not having any impact on the story other than mostly mentions (which I'd honestly like). I guess maaaaaybe it's also possible she's going back to get DNA to make another Shepard clone, but honestly that would feel kinda restrictive from a role-playing perspective. That;s where I'm leaning currently. After passing the relay and all that battle debris (which can be explained as debris from the battle for earth before the Crucible is fired and is not necessarily indicative of the Destroy ending), the image in the trailer veers back out into space and we're looking at another nebula before leveling off to land on a planet.
The planet we land on could be earth, but there is nothing in the image that says it's definitively earth. Alchera is a snowy planet, so the piece of helmet Liara finds could be from Shepard's old armor from ME1.
Yes, there is a Reaper in the image... So, yes, it could mean that Liara is on earth... but it normally doesn't snow that much in London - so if it is earth, something very wrong as happened with the sun and the weather... which could also account for "dead" reapers even if the Destroy ending was not chosen. It's also possible that the Reaper in the background is not dead. It's also possible, since the Reapers attacked in every cluster in the galaxy, that others were taken down in the course of regular fighting over the course of the Reaper war... so the planet could still also be Alchera.
The reality is... we don't yet know because Bioware hasn't revealed everything yet.
The planet she is on is definitely not Earth, since it has multiple planetary bodies orbiting it (or is orbiting) while Earth only has the Moon.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2021 3:26:05 GMT
That;s where I'm leaning currently. After passing the relay and all that battle debris (which can be explained as debris from the battle for earth before the Crucible is fired and is not necessarily indicative of the Destroy ending), the image in the trailer veers back out into space and we're looking at another nebula before leveling off to land on a planet.
The planet we land on could be earth, but there is nothing in the image that says it's definitively earth. Alchera is a snowy planet, so the piece of helmet Liara finds could be from Shepard's old armor from ME1.
Yes, there is a Reaper in the image... So, yes, it could mean that Liara is on earth... but it normally doesn't snow that much in London - so if it is earth, something very wrong as happened with the sun and the weather... which could also account for "dead" reapers even if the Destroy ending was not chosen. It's also possible that the Reaper in the background is not dead. It's also possible, since the Reapers attacked in every cluster in the galaxy, that others were taken down in the course of regular fighting over the course of the Reaper war... so the planet could still also be Alchera.
The reality is... we don't yet know because Bioware hasn't revealed everything yet.
The planet she is on is definitely not Earth, since it has multiple planetary bodies orbiting it (or is orbiting) while Earth only has the Moon. Which only fortifies the idea that it is Alchera since the only two places in the Galaxy likely to have pieces of Shepard's armor are Alchera and Earth. I supposed another unlikely possibility is that the firing of the Crucible literally relocated astral bodies within the galaxy (but that seems pretty far-fetched even for Bioware).
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 3:39:28 GMT
The planet she is on is definitely not Earth, since it has multiple planetary bodies orbiting it (or is orbiting) while Earth only has the Moon. Which only fortifies the idea that it is Alchera since the only two places in the Galaxy likely to have pieces of Shepard's armor are Alchera and Earth. I supposed another unlikely possibility is that the firing of the Crucible literally relocated astral bodies within the galaxy (but that seems pretty far-fetched even for Bioware). Or it's some new planet and the piece is from a story we don't know about yet. Or the whole trailer was just metaphorical rather than actually representing things in the game. If it is Alchera, I already had misgivings about the game since Alchera isn't supposed to have a breathable atmosphere, yet Liara is there not even wearing a breather mask.
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Post by themikefest on Jun 30, 2021 3:54:40 GMT
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jun 30, 2021 4:12:27 GMT
They'd only be limited in the time it would take for them to get there. I mean, think about it. The Reapers are convinced that "the created will always turn on the created", that synthetics will surpass and destroy organics. Always. And it is their duty to "protect" organics from this. So, logically, synthetics from OUTSIDE the galaxy would be a threat to organics as well. And if intergalactic travel is possible (as we know now it is) then the possibility of synthetics i nother galaxies making the journey to the Milky Way and destroying organics is a possibility the Reapers need to take into account. Conclusion: Reapers need to harvest organics in other galaxies to ensure they don't build synthetics that would wipe out organics in ANY galaxy. True, however they can't be out there too long or else the life in galaxies like the Milky Way would advance too far and bring about the annihilations they were created to prevent. So they do as many as they can in the 50,000 year cycle, focusing their efforts there while perhaps eventually sending some out to other galaxies beyond that range. Those ones would be too far out to worry about, since either they receive the message they don't need to anymore (Synthesis) or under new management (Control) or by the time they get back to us it's been thousands of years and we've advanced to the point they aren't the apocalyptic threat they were in ME3 anymore. And that's just one possibility. There are others, like the Leviathans wanting them to just focus on places they see could affect them hence only the Local Group. Thus, my theory of broods. Part of the Reaper horde breaks off and starts harvesting, say, the Triangulum galaxy. Another to Andromeda, more to the Magellanic Clouds, etc. Each starting its own set of new Reapers and new Reaper cycles. Keep in mind, the Reapers started with ONE Reaper (Harbinger) and built from there. And even then, they started out as purely machines before Harbinger was built. For that matter, do we even know what happened to those original machines? Interestingly, this could create new TYPES of Reapers, perhaps even with different methods of harvesting and different interpretations of their mandate, as they get further from the "baseline" Reaper. And really, what the Leviathans wanted shouldn't really factor in here, since I'm pretty sure they didn't want to get mulched
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 30, 2021 12:49:42 GMT
themikefest I'm sorry, I'm not sure how the clip contradicts my suggestion? Feron was a part of the rescue operation (or salvage operation more like) but I don't see why that would mean Liara couldn't revisit the site where the remaining pieces of Shepard's armor was left?
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Post by themikefest on Jun 30, 2021 13:17:56 GMT
themikefest I'm sorry, I'm not sure how the clip contradicts my suggestion? Feron was a part of the rescue operation (or salvage operation more like) but I don't see why that would mean Liara couldn't revisit the site where the remaining pieces of Shepard's armor was left? You posted this revisiting Alchera and the place she found Shepards body. How is that possible if the body wasn't there for it to be found? The corpse was in the Shadow Brokers hands before her and Feron showed up to take it away from him to hand over to Cerberus. Or do you mean found the body on the planet where the Shadow Broker was giving it to the collectors? I have not read the comic, so I have no idea on what planet that took place.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jun 30, 2021 13:30:52 GMT
themikefest oh I see what you mean now. Okay, maybe I should rephrase it; Liara is visiting the place where what remains of the "original" Shepard is. I guess that would be more correct? To me it doesn't really change my point, that it would just be intended as a sort of homage to Shepard rather than being a plot point in and of itself.
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Post by Unicephalon 40-D on Jun 30, 2021 13:32:53 GMT
Liara is visiting the place where what remains of the "original" Shepard is. I guess that would be more correct? To me it doesn't really change my point, that it would just be intended as a sort of homage to Shepard rather than being a plot point in and of itself. Thats how I saw it too. I really dont think they are going to use Shepard anymore.
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Post by skekSil on Jun 30, 2021 14:49:25 GMT
Part of the Reaper horde breaks off and starts harvesting, say, the Triangulum galaxy. Another to Andromeda, more to the Magellanic Clouds, etc. Each starting its own set of new Reapers and new Reaper cycles. Keep in mind, the Reapers started with ONE Reaper (Harbinger) and built from there. And even then, they started out as purely machines before Harbinger was built. For that matter, do we even know what happened to those original machines? Interestingly, this could create new TYPES of Reapers, perhaps even with different methods of harvesting and different interpretations of their mandate, as they get further from the "baseline" Reaper. Ill just repeat myself from my old thread: Basically they can create clusters of galaxies that are patroled by a single fleet of Reapers during 50000 year cycles, while excess Reapers, built during harvests, would be used to spread out and create new clusters ad infinium.
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Post by Hanako Ikezawa on Jun 30, 2021 21:03:50 GMT
Liara is visiting the place where what remains of the "original" Shepard is. I guess that would be more correct? To me it doesn't really change my point, that it would just be intended as a sort of homage to Shepard rather than being a plot point in and of itself. Thats how I saw it too. I really dont think they are going to use Shepard anymore. I don’t even think it’s an homage to Shepard, since it doesn’t match their helmet. I think the N7 represented Mass Effect as a franchise, with that whole scene being taking it off ice.
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Iakus
N7
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,139 Likes: 50,079
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Post by Iakus on Jun 30, 2021 21:06:20 GMT
Part of the Reaper horde breaks off and starts harvesting, say, the Triangulum galaxy. Another to Andromeda, more to the Magellanic Clouds, etc. Each starting its own set of new Reapers and new Reaper cycles. Keep in mind, the Reapers started with ONE Reaper (Harbinger) and built from there. And even then, they started out as purely machines before Harbinger was built. For that matter, do we even know what happened to those original machines? Interestingly, this could create new TYPES of Reapers, perhaps even with different methods of harvesting and different interpretations of their mandate, as they get further from the "baseline" Reaper. Ill just repeat myself from my old thread: Basically they can create clusters of galaxies that are patroled by a single fleet of Reapers during 50000 year cycles, while excess Reapers, built during harvests, would be used to spread out and create new clusters ad infinium. They could. But the point is there is really no reason to think the Reapers would stick to just one galaxy beyond "We REALLY don't want to have to deal with Reapers anymore"
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Post by skekSil on Jul 1, 2021 6:59:43 GMT
They could. But the point is there is really no reason to think the Reapers would stick to just one galaxy beyond "We REALLY don't want to have to deal with Reapers anymore" Exactly. Hence my earlier poin: 'Where are the Reapers? At some point a new game must either reintroduce Reapers or explain their absence. Not doing this will be in my opinion a plot hole.'
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jul 1, 2021 10:25:50 GMT
The reasons for the Reapers never leaving the galaxy could be explained by their programming I guess? If the order was to preserve life in the Milky Way there's really no reason for them to waste resources exploring other galaxies unless there's reason to think they'd be a threat (and the Reapers likely calculated correctly that such a risk was very small, as we've seen no indication of anyone reaching us from another galaxy). The Reapers do not have infinite resources, so it would make sense not to weaken themselves for an endeavor with little pay-off that wasn't in their initial programming.
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Post by SirSourpuss on Jul 1, 2021 10:55:22 GMT
The reasons for the Reapers never leaving the galaxy could be explained by their programming I guess? If the order was to preserve life in the Milky Way there's really no reason for them to waste resources exploring other galaxies unless there's reason to think they'd be a threat (and the Reapers likely calculated correctly that such a risk was very small, as we've seen no indication of anyone reaching us from another galaxy). The Reapers do not have infinite resources, so it would make sense not to weaken themselves for an endeavor with little pay-off that wasn't in their initial programming. Which is why Bioware shouldn't have trivialized intergalactic travel. "Well, it's not trivialized if it takes the Initiative 600 years" That's right, it does take the Initiative 600 years to reach Andromeda. It wouldn't take 600 years for the Reapers. And even if it were, 600 years is nothing to a Reaper. And if we can put our people on cryo and ship them to a new galaxy, what's stopping other galaxies of doing the same to the Milky Way and, by extension, to the Reapers? What if they come as conquerors? Which is a very plausible scenario. What if they have such superior firepower and technology that should wipe the Reapers out in a few minutes, like it was a minor skirmish? After all, they'd have the time and freedom to advance their tech to the point of not only challenging, but surpassing the Reapers. Which then means that the Reapers would be dumb not to police, not just neighbouring galaxies, but the galaxies neighbouring those galaxies etc. Because eventually, and I'd argue it should have happened already, somebody would come and fuck them up. But space is also infinite and the ability to police infinity is impossible, considering event the possibility to reach the galaxies at the edge of infinity. Meaning the Catalyst should have understood, from the moment of its creation, that the cycle is impossible to maintain, flawed, impractical and the fact that it has even gone on for as long as it has, is a fluke.
All because we put 50k blokes on ships and sent them to a neighbouring galaxy. We ruined the franchise.
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Post by Son of Dorn on Jul 1, 2021 10:57:34 GMT
*annoyed grunt* No more bloody Reapers! That story's done, end off. No point in rehashing that crappy story arc.
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Post by traks on Jul 1, 2021 13:07:15 GMT
The Reapers could be limited to the Local Group (Milky Way, Andromeda, Triangulum, and the various dwarf galaxies). They just spend the 50,000 years going to those, so all are still together, while other galactic clusters are seen as too far to worry about. They'd only be limited in the time it would take for them to get there. I mean, think about it. The Reapers are convinced that "the created will always turn on the created", that synthetics will surpass and destroy organics. Always. And it is their duty to "protect" organics from this. So, logically, synthetics from OUTSIDE the galaxy would be a threat to organics as well. And if intergalactic travel is possible (as we know now it is) then the possibility of synthetics i nother galaxies making the journey to the Milky Way and destroying organics is a possibility the Reapers need to take into account. Conclusion: Reapers need to harvest organics in other galaxies to ensure they don't build synthetics that would wipe out organics in ANY galaxy. Shepard took care of that problem in 2186, so nothing to worry about in the next ME.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
Posts: 21,139 Likes: 50,079
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Post by Iakus on Jul 1, 2021 13:13:52 GMT
The reasons for the Reapers never leaving the galaxy could be explained by their programming I guess? If the order was to preserve life in the Milky Way there's really no reason for them to waste resources exploring other galaxies unless there's reason to think they'd be a threat (and the Reapers likely calculated correctly that such a risk was very small, as we've seen no indication of anyone reaching us from another galaxy). The Reapers do not have infinite resources, so it would make sense not to weaken themselves for an endeavor with little pay-off that wasn't in their initial programming. Which is why Bioware shouldn't have trivialized intergalactic travel. "Well, it's not trivialized if it takes the Initiative 600 years" That's right, it does take the Initiative 600 years to reach Andromeda. It wouldn't take 600 years for the Reapers. And even if it were, 600 years is nothing to a Reaper. And if we can put our people on cryo and ship them to a new galaxy, what's stopping other galaxies of doing the same to the Milky Way and, by extension, to the Reapers? What if they come as conquerors? Which is a very plausible scenario. What if they have such superior firepower and technology that should wipe the Reapers out in a few minutes, like it was a minor skirmish? After all, they'd have the time and freedom to advance their tech to the point of not only challenging, but surpassing the Reapers. Which then means that the Reapers would be dumb not to police, not just neighbouring galaxies, but the galaxies neighbouring those galaxies etc. Because eventually, and I'd argue it should have happened already, somebody would come and fuck them up. But space is also infinite and the ability to police infinity is impossible, considering event the possibility to reach the galaxies at the edge of infinity. Meaning the Catalyst should have understood, from the moment of its creation, that the cycle is impossible to maintain, flawed, impractical and the fact that it has even gone on for as long as it has, is a fluke.
All because we put 50k blokes on ships and sent them to a neighbouring galaxy. We ruined the franchise.
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Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire, Mass Effect Andromeda
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Post by Iakus on Jul 1, 2021 13:15:30 GMT
They'd only be limited in the time it would take for them to get there. I mean, think about it. The Reapers are convinced that "the created will always turn on the created", that synthetics will surpass and destroy organics. Always. And it is their duty to "protect" organics from this. So, logically, synthetics from OUTSIDE the galaxy would be a threat to organics as well. And if intergalactic travel is possible (as we know now it is) then the possibility of synthetics i nother galaxies making the journey to the Milky Way and destroying organics is a possibility the Reapers need to take into account. Conclusion: Reapers need to harvest organics in other galaxies to ensure they don't build synthetics that would wipe out organics in ANY galaxy. Shepard took care of that problem in 2186, so nothing to worry about in the next ME. THe Magic Wand's blast wave propagated through mass relays. Where are the mass relays in other galaxies?
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Post by traks on Jul 1, 2021 13:23:23 GMT
Shepard took care of that problem in 2186, so nothing to worry about in the next ME. THe Magic Wand's blast wave propagated through mass relays. Where are the mass relays in other galaxies? Don't know yet, have only been in one cluster in Andromeda so far. The point is another one though: not whether the writers thought of everything before going into different galaxies, but even if they were harvesting there in the past, that the Reaper problem was solved in ME3, because all of them were in the Milky Way at that point. Unless you WANT to bring them back so badly, because there are no new ideas, why wouldn't you assume, that they go one galaxy in full force at a time? BTW: there is a lot of time in 50,000 years to check out other galaxies instead of sleeping around in dark space.
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Post by QuizzyBunny on Jul 1, 2021 13:24:47 GMT
The point I was trying to make though wasn't if the Reapers could do it (they obviously can travel incredible distances) but rather if they would see a reason to do so. I'm not good at programming, but to my understanding even a God-AI such as the Reapers couldn't deviate from their original programming... and if the instruction was to preserve life in the Milky Way they can't really have come to the conclusion that other galaxies had to be taken into account (as the AI would likely have come to the conclusion that they feasibly couldn't account for these as the task would become virtually impossible). Likely the programming was restricted to only account for the Milky Way, as anything else would just result in the AI crashing or just outputting gibberish (in my admittedly limited understanding at least).
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