Iakus
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Post by Iakus on Oct 29, 2018 19:17:25 GMT
ME1 and ME2 had magic wands to solve our problems. Why was this suddenly a problem in ME3? For me because I was hoping ME3 would somehow redeem things. But in the end, it had the biggest magic wand of all
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Post by alanc9 on Oct 29, 2018 23:30:48 GMT
Something like the Crucible is what I kind of expected, honestly. Bio's formula has often involved some sort of single point of failure where the hero PC can resolve the plot by destroying something/defeating someone/pushing a button. (DA2, obviously, is an exception because Kirkwall's problems are not soluble.) Works better in fantasy, I think -- including Star Wars, which isn't really SF.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 30, 2018 1:08:52 GMT
Something like the Crucible is what I kind of expected, honestly. Bio's formula has often involved some sort of single point of failure where the hero PC can resolve the plot by destroying something/defeating someone/pushing a button. (DA2, obviously, is an exception because Kirkwall's problems are not soluble.) Works better in fantasy, I think -- including Star Wars, which isn't really SF. So did I. It was obvious something like that would be needed.
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Post by quole on Oct 30, 2018 1:22:51 GMT
Are you seriously trying to say that the removal of the endings - the endings that actively ruined the trilogy - itself would ruin the trilogy? That makes no sense. Curing a disease doesn't make the disease worse. Sorry, but the Trilogy endings are not a disease. They are merely a selection of ENDINGS to a fictional game story... and that's the key... they were always intended to be ENDINGS to that story. Shepard's story was always intended to END with Mass Effect 3. The story was a Trilogy and the Trilogy ENDED. Diseases affect the living not the ENDED. In a way you are not wrong because there was not much left to ruin after ME2.
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Post by griffith82 on Oct 30, 2018 11:31:08 GMT
Sorry, but the Trilogy endings are not a disease. They are merely a selection of ENDINGS to a fictional game story... and that's the key... they were always intended to be ENDINGS to that story. Shepard's story was always intended to END with Mass Effect 3. The story was a Trilogy and the Trilogy ENDED. Diseases affect the living not the ENDED. In a way you are not wrong because there was not much left to ruin after ME2. To me ME2 was miles better than ME1. I love all 3 but ME2 and 3 are imo the best.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 30, 2018 16:00:05 GMT
Sorry, but the Trilogy endings are not a disease. They are merely a selection of ENDINGS to a fictional game story... and that's the key... they were always intended to be ENDINGS to that story. Shepard's story was always intended to END with Mass Effect 3. The story was a Trilogy and the Trilogy ENDED. Diseases affect the living not the ENDED. In a way you are not wrong because there was not much left to ruin after ME2. Force whatever take you want onto what I've said. It's up to you. I don't think anything has been ruined at all. None of the games are Pullitzer quality literature. They're games. None of the games are real life either. They're original sci-fi fantasy written by a group of authors/game developers (that is, they weren't based on the work of another author like some other games are). We're consumers of their authoriship only, so even though we can interact with the game it will always be within whatever range the authors choose to put into it AND they chose to END the ME Trilogy with ME3. They aren't a disease, they are endings to a fictional story. That's all, nothing more.
As games, I've replayed all 4 of them several times. I've gotten far more than my money's worth in enjoyment out of each and every one of them. If they write more that appeals to me, I'll buy them. My only requirement is that they be SP since I simply cannot play online. It's as simple as that.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 2, 2018 3:50:49 GMT
Just removing synthesis would be a improvement to the ME3 endings. MY issues always more revolved around the writing design that led to a magic wand to solve your problems so it wouldn't fix it for me, but just having destroy would have been a large improvement. That makes no sense. How does not having ending options you don't choose improve the one you do? The destroy ending would be the same even if it was the only ending. The ending options you don't select have no bearing on your play through whatsoever. Because it was such a absurd concept it damaged the narrative massively by existing. You could have has a dragon pop out and do a Broadway rendition of the lion king and it would make more sense than a green wave of energy transforming all life in the galaxy into synthetic beings.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 2, 2018 3:53:05 GMT
ME1 and ME2 had magic wands to solve our problems. Why was this suddenly a problem in ME3? <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.960000000000036px; height: 2.799999999999997px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_21825063" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="2.799999999999997"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 2.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_86805674" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="2.799999999999997"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 2.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 81px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_64353335" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="2.799999999999997"></iframe> <iframe style="position: absolute; width: 23.96px; height: 2.8px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 1138px; top: 81px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_51127652" scrolling="no" width="23.960000000000036" height="2.799999999999997"></iframe> Because the magic wands fit the sci-fi magic of the setting, the crucible dialed space magic to infinity.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 2, 2018 13:51:47 GMT
That makes no sense. How does not having ending options you don't choose improve the one you do? The destroy ending would be the same even if it was the only ending. The ending options you don't select have no bearing on your play through whatsoever. Because it was such a absurd concept it damaged the narrative massively by existing. You could have has a dragon pop out and do a Broadway rendition of the lion king and it would make more sense than a green wave of energy transforming all life in the galaxy into synthetic beings. Having a beam of energy selectively destroy all synthetic tech across an entire galaxy and have Shepard, who has innumerable implants, survive the blast at close range is equally absurd. Triggering the crucible with a pistol is also completely absurd. It's an symbolic ending... if you don't select it, the representation of it doesn't exist in your game anyways. Just like in my game, Shepard never survives regardless of the decision he/she makes , but I'm not whining for the elimination of the breath scene because I know other people select it. NO one inside the game has any idea what would have happened had Shepard made a different choice. The alternative paths no longer exist after the choice is made.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 2, 2018 19:44:09 GMT
In a way you are not wrong because there was not much left to ruin after ME2. To me ME2 was miles better than ME1. I love all 3 but ME2 and 3 are imo the best. Not storywise. Cerberus was the biggest issue. Would have been better if a government were behind everything rather than a rogue Alliance black ops organization (clearly retconned between ME1 and ME2.) Not to mention it went off the rails regarding who the enemy was. It took a DLC to get it back on track.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 2, 2018 19:47:48 GMT
Reminder that it wasn't ME2 but ME: Ascension that retconned Cerberus. Not that I want to defend ME2, just let's get the facts straight.
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Post by sil on Nov 2, 2018 21:27:39 GMT
To me ME2 was miles better than ME1. I love all 3 but ME2 and 3 are imo the best. Not storywise. Cerberus was the biggest issue. Would have been better if a government were behind everything rather than a rogue Alliance black ops organization (clearly retconned between ME1 and ME2.) Not to mention it went off the rails regarding who the enemy was. It took a DLC to get it back on track. They should've had it so the Cerberus 'fleet' was stolen in a mutiny as the Reaper War began. Specially placed agents seizing power in one of the Alliance fleets and running off with it. That would've felt more plausible than them building a fleet and an army in the space of six months.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 2, 2018 21:43:16 GMT
Not storywise. Cerberus was the biggest issue. Would have been better if a government were behind everything rather than a rogue Alliance black ops organization (clearly retconned between ME1 and ME2.) Not to mention it went off the rails regarding who the enemy was. It took a DLC to get it back on track. They should've had it so the Cerberus 'fleet' was stolen in a mutiny as the Reaper War began. Specially placed agents seizing power in one of the Alliance fleets and running off with it. That would've felt more plausible than them building a fleet and an army in the space of six months. Is it the official version that they built those fleets between ME2 and ME3? As far as I understand, their history was changed so deeply that they had some fleets already in 2160s (ME: Evolution's last pages). Inb4 EDI saying that Cerberus's personnel is ~250 in ME2 – yes, another line put into trash.
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Post by griffith82 on Nov 2, 2018 22:39:39 GMT
To me ME2 was miles better than ME1. I love all 3 but ME2 and 3 are imo the best. Not storywise. Cerberus was the biggest issue. Would have been better if a government were behind everything rather than a rogue Alliance black ops organization (clearly retconned between ME1 and ME2.) Not to mention it went off the rails regarding who the enemy was. It took a DLC to get it back on track. I don't agree. Yes they changed them a bit but the core of them wasn't truly delved into till ME2. I had no issue
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Post by Iakus on Nov 3, 2018 1:25:18 GMT
Watching either ending, original or EC, reminds me of those old SNL sketches Theodoric of York: Medieval Barber. Particularly when Jane Curtin shouts at him "Why don't you admit it, YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING!!?"
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 3, 2018 4:45:23 GMT
I don't agree. Yes they changed them a bit but the core of them wasn't truly delved into till ME2. I had no issue "A bit"? Sure, I understand that ME1 isn't your favorite, but the changes from ME1 and ME2 are so drastic that they may as well be another organization entirely.
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Post by dmc1001 on Nov 3, 2018 4:51:01 GMT
Reminder that it wasn't ME2 but ME: Ascension that retconned Cerberus. Not that I want to defend ME2, just let's get the facts straight. Yeah, I get that, even though I never read anything other than the novels. So, to me, the change was massive between games. I imagine the same is true of the vast majority of MET players.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 3, 2018 5:13:06 GMT
I don't agree. Yes they changed them a bit but the core of them wasn't truly delved into till ME2. I had no issue "A bit"? Sure, I understand that ME1 isn't your favorite, but the changes from ME1 and ME2 are so drastic that they may as well be another organization entirely. I disagree. ME1 Cerberus was mystery enough that what they ended up being in Me2 wasn't really a change. ME1 they have multiple secret bases around the galaxy where they perform experiments and they were or maybe are still connected to the alliance. That's about all we know. Me2, has that changed or is it just added to To me it was just added to, which for me means we the player just didn't know everything and why would we about a super secret organization.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 3, 2018 7:44:39 GMT
I don't know how anyone who played ME2 and read the Codex and the Shadow Broker's files could believe that Cerberus was tied to the Alliance at any point. What happened between ME1 and ME2 wasn't the only rewrite; ME: Evolution and ME: Invasion tell us that they are way more powerful than we were previously told and ME: Retribution makes it clear that Cerberus's existence was by no means a secret at the end of ME1 (and that they are much worse than Miranda wants us to believe ). Hell, even ME2 already changed something, moving TIM's office from some sleazy skyscraper on Earth to a space station. Rewrite is massive, multi-stage and openly admitted by BioWare, I don't know why pretend otherwise.
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Post by griffith82 on Nov 3, 2018 12:06:56 GMT
I don't know how anyone who played ME2 and read the Codex and the Shadow Broker's files could believe that Cerberus was tied to the Alliance at any point. What happened between ME1 and ME2 wasn't the only rewrite; ME: Evolution and ME: Invasion tell us that they are way more powerful than we were previously told and ME: Retribution makes it clear that Cerberus's existence was by no means a secret at the end of ME1 (and that they are much worse than Miranda wants us to believe ). Hell, even ME2 already changed something, moving TIM's office from some sleazy skyscraper on Earth to a space station. Rewrite is massive, multi-stage and openly admitted by BioWare, I don't know why pretend otherwise. Rewritten yes to imo make them more interesting. It is still mentioned in game however that they were once an alliance black ops group.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 3, 2018 15:30:52 GMT
I don't know how anyone who played ME2 and read the Codex and the Shadow Broker's files could believe that Cerberus was tied to the Alliance at any point. What happened between ME1 and ME2 wasn't the only rewrite; ME: Evolution and ME: Invasion tell us that they are way more powerful than we were previously told and ME: Retribution makes it clear that Cerberus's existence was by no means a secret at the end of ME1 (and that they are much worse than Miranda wants us to believe ). Hell, even ME2 already changed something, moving TIM's office from some sleazy skyscraper on Earth to a space station. Rewrite is massive, multi-stage and openly admitted by BioWare, I don't know why pretend otherwise. Rewritten yes to imo make them more interesting. It is still mentioned in game however that they were once an alliance black ops group. And then you have a Codex entry and a comic about their beginnings saying plainly that they never were because they started independently and worked at different tracks since the beginning.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 3, 2018 17:03:05 GMT
I don't know how anyone who played ME2 and read the Codex and the Shadow Broker's files could believe that Cerberus was tied to the Alliance at any point. What happened between ME1 and ME2 wasn't the only rewrite; ME: Evolution and ME: Invasion tell us that they are way more powerful than we were previously told and ME: Retribution makes it clear that Cerberus's existence was by no means a secret at the end of ME1 (and that they are much worse than Miranda wants us to believe ). Hell, even ME2 already changed something, moving TIM's office from some sleazy skyscraper on Earth to a space station. Rewrite is massive, multi-stage and openly admitted by BioWare, I don't know why pretend otherwise.
There is a difference between a rewrite and player having limited or incorrect knowledge. Cerberus clearly had high level alliance connections and their foundation came from the alliance, that falls well within the range of what could be the truth form the limited knowledge you pick up in ME1. It's a secret organization it would be more implausible if everything you first learned was actually true.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 3, 2018 17:05:25 GMT
Rewritten yes to imo make them more interesting. It is still mentioned in game however that they were once an alliance black ops group. And then you have a Codex entry and a comic about their beginnings saying plainly that they never were because they started independently and worked at different tracks since the beginning.
In fiction, maybe reality many government black opps groups do work independently. That's actually the point of them.
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Post by burningcherry on Nov 3, 2018 17:28:56 GMT
Cerberus clearly had high level alliance connections and their foundation came from the alliancePlz read ME: Evolution before coming back to this thread, I'm not wasting my time anymore. The only connection Cerberus could have had with the Alliance was infiltrating it, that's why Anderson and Sanders go straight to turians and not the Alliance when they get some intel on Cerberus and TIM.
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Post by ahglock on Nov 3, 2018 21:30:55 GMT
Cerberus clearly had high level alliance connections and their foundation came from the alliancePlz read ME: Evolution before coming back to this thread, I'm not wasting my time anymore. The only connection Cerberus could have had with the Alliance was infiltrating it, that's why Anderson and Sanders go straight to turians and not the Alliance when they get some intel on Cerberus and TIM. Governments frequently are totally unaware of what is happening in their own government. One dude in a intelligence organization with a off book budget can be a foundation that Cerberus arose from in the alliance. Why you insist that what you read in a book that is not part of the trilogy has to be correct information about a secret organization is beyond me. What Anderson and Sanders learned can be wrong, what the turians found out can be wrong, what we learned in ME1,2,3 can be wrong. That is not a rewrite, its just you found incorrect information like people do in reality all the damn time.
And I can come back to any thread I want, if don't like it tough shit.
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