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Post by themikefest on May 20, 2020 11:32:20 GMT
We can't criticize that, man. According to Hanako Ikezawa and Highwayman667 , you can't criticize a writer, unless you've written a book yourself. And don't you dare ever criticize Mein Kampf. That's right, you can't criticize Hitler. No, you-don't! Don't! You're not a writer, themikefest , you've been prohibited by Hanako Ikezawa and Highwayman667 from criticizing Hitler's literary work. You have to accept Hitler's final solution. sH0tgUn jUliA, a poster on the old forum, calls it bad writing theory(BWT) The other thing is that it appears there was a lack of communication between writers when writing dialogue for characters. After Thessia, Shepard will tell t'soni that she's been warning her people for 4 years, yet when talking with Tali, the first time on the presidium, she will say it's been exactly 3 years since she was attacked by Saren's assassin's.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 13:41:19 GMT
Andromeda's issue was due to mismanagement and improper tools for the job (eg. Frostbite). Be that as it may, the atrocious writing is just e-ink on e-paper. You don't need frostbite to write a good line, you don't need developer tools to write a good line. People, largely, just didn't like Andromeda and therefore don't care for what Andromeda set up. Simple as that. You just want them to go back to the trilogy, so you can get your much sought after sequel to ME3. With a new ending, and everything fixed Give me 1 good reason why that is a bad thing. Bioware, on the other hand, has said many times they don't want to do this. Irrelevant. From the moment you produce an entertainment product intended for mass consumption, what you want to make isn't always in tune with the audience trends. Blatantly obvious by how aligned with its time ME2 was. You really don't see the difference? The difference to what? That because I am not a writer, I cannot be trusted to exhibit any amount of critical thinking about any literary work ever? Maybe I want to criticize War and Peace, maybe I want to criticize Ulysses, maybe I want to criticize Mein Kampf. But apparently, I cannot be trusted to criticize anything, not even fucking Hitler, of all people, but rather I need to be told by approved others what to think. I've read 1984. Good book. Some people here should read it, too. If you don't like reading books, there's also a movie, with Richard Burton and John Hurt. At least, the one filmed in 1984 was and I've watched that one. More than that, you could also watch THX 1138, by George Lucas, since he did, in fact, make movies other than Star Wars and this is also in the same vein. This is a very dangerous, very slippery slope. By the same principle, I cannot criticize a head of state, unless I am also a head of state, since I am not partial to all the intricacies of running a nation. But isn't me voting in a democratic election by itself an act of criticism of my government? Therefore, none of us can be trusted to vote, unless we have, at some point ourselves, been heads of state. Therefore, by that logic, democracy should be abolished and heads of state should be planted by the worldwide oligarchy. This is very simple; whoever made the statement can admit their logical fallacy and agree it was merely unfortunate. It's a very simple act really.
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Post by natetrace on May 20, 2020 14:31:58 GMT
I think this often comes back to does a book or movie or game or whatever belong to the fans or the writers and creators. I am almost always someone who sides with the creators and writers, rather than fans. If Bioware wants to continue with Andromeda and not rewrite the ending of 3 great! I agree with that direction. If they choose a different direction I might not agree with it but I am a fan and will support them.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 14:40:24 GMT
sH0tgUn jUliA, a poster on the old forum, calls it bad writing theory(BWT) I don't think it's a theory, mate. We've pretty much proven it ourselves to be true. Even if Mac has an explanation for each and every plot hole and logical fallacy, the game fails, because it relies on outside factors, to make up for itself, thus failing in the basic premise of telling a cohesive storyline, within the confines of the game's running time.
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 20, 2020 14:40:49 GMT
...it's incredibly important when the criticisms of people who know absolutely nothing about writing or game development, question the capacity and insult the very people involved in projects they've enjoyed before. Not only is it contradictory but highly toxic and disrespectful behavior towards any kind of trained professional.That's what I actually said That's one of the reasons people like David Gaider and the two founding doctors left the building. They couldn't deal with the toxic fanbase anymore. It's honestly grueling that some people can't even acknowledge this and still troll the shit out of the company. We should recognize how great a loss it was that the founders of the company left itWhat about Christina Norman though ? Is she still at Bioware ?
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Post by wright1978 on May 20, 2020 15:48:25 GMT
while I certainly accept there should always be an awareness to ‘play the ball’ not ‘the man’ as they say in sport. It’s perfectly fine to criticize the work or the writing within a game.
As for the creators leaving, once they sold the company that was always happening.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 15:50:13 GMT
I think this often comes back to does a book or movie or game or whatever belong to the fans or the writers and creators. I am almost always someone who sides with the creators and writers, rather than fans. If Bioware wants to continue with Andromeda and not rewrite the ending of 3 great! I agree with that direction. If they choose a different direction I might not agree with it but I am a fan and will support them. As a company, you're going to choose what makes you the most money, as profit is the end goal of all your content production efforts. You are free to experiment, you are free to innovate, but after a string of failures, a sure bet is better than an ambiguous bet and a follow up title to a bad title is less likely to succeed. Especially when that bad title has generated no interest to be succeeded by in your target audience. Yes, I get it, there is some interest here, but here isn't everywhere, the ones that didn't like the bad title are less likely to return for a sequel to it and there is no guarantee of interest being generated at a large enough number in the new entrants of the gaming community. In other words, your projected clientbase shrinkage is larger than your clientbase growth, thus creating an unviable product, before it is even produced.
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 20, 2020 16:04:20 GMT
while I certainly accept there should always be an awareness to ‘play the ball’ not ‘the man’ as they say in sport. It’s perfectly fine to criticize the work or the writing within a game. As for the creators leaving, once they sold the company that was always happening. We would've never gotten Mass Effect 2 or 3 if it wasn't for EA. We need to accept that fact sooner rather than later. That things deteriorated later is a different issue.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 16:07:06 GMT
while I certainly accept there should always be an awareness to ‘play the ball’ not ‘the man’ as they say in sport. It’s perfectly fine to criticize the work or the writing within a game. It is perfectly fine to criticize any writing, in any medium. Your criticism can be incorrect, there's no guarantee of it being otherwise, but you can criticize freely. And when you criticize a game of a company whose forum you inhabit, this criticism creates a back and forth, which is how you generate ... anybody? Anybody? Discussion, yes, it generates discussion. And we are in a ... anybody? Anybody? Discussion board, thank you, yes. So we criticize and that criticism generates a discussion, because that's what we do on a discussion board. And our criticisms can be valid or not. Yes, a criticism can be wrong. I can be wrong. I've been wrong hundreds, if not thousands of times and it's OK to admit that you are not infallible. I can miss things and my criticism can therefore be unfair. And someone here can correct me.
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Post by wright1978 on May 20, 2020 16:20:13 GMT
while I certainly accept there should always be an awareness to ‘play the ball’ not ‘the man’ as they say in sport. It’s perfectly fine to criticize the work or the writing within a game. As for the creators leaving, once they sold the company that was always happening. We would've never gotten Mass Effect 2 or 3 if it wasn't for EA. We need to accept that fact sooner rather than later. That things deteriorated later is a different issue. Yes i’m Very happy I got to play me2, my favorite game of all time. Just saying the sale was what really led to creators exit.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 16:22:40 GMT
Yes i’m Very happy I got to play me2, my favorite game of all time Same here.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 16:46:51 GMT
That's one of the reasons people like David Gaider and the two founding doctors left the building. They couldn't deal with the toxic fanbase anymore. It's honestly grueling that some people can't even acknowledge this and still troll the shit out of the company. We should recognize how great a loss it was that the founders of the company left itWhat about Christina Norman though ? Is she still at Bioware ? I don't think so. I read she quit before ME3 happened.
Unfortunately some people believe their abuse is justified, but in reality, it should never be tolerated. Ever.
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N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 20, 2020 16:56:35 GMT
I don't think so. I read she quit before ME3 happened.
Unfortunately some people believe their abuse is justified, but in reality, it should never be tolerated. Ever.
Are we sure about Christina ? I could've sworn she was defending Bioware when the Day One DLC controversy went about. As I've said before, I think all criticism is reasonable but some people really don't understand how to do that.
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Post by Deleted on May 20, 2020 17:01:43 GMT
Sorry, must have been an article without correct information. I just Googled it and replied.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 17:13:20 GMT
Are we sure about Christina ? I could've sworn she was defending Bioware when the Day One DLC controversy went about. As I've said before, I think all criticism is reasonable but some people really don't understand how to do that. Hold on, when I say free to criticize, I do mean about the product and the capabilities of an individual in a medium. Saying Mac Walters isn't fit for a lead writer, isn't an attack on Mac. I've said it before; I like a lot of Mac's work, but he came up short, as he has admitted himself. I like his work, but he fucked up in ME3, but I like his work. Like Aidan Gillen in TDK. I love Aidan Gillen, but he hammed it up in TDK, but I love Aidan Gillen.
I do not endorse harassment.
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Post by burningcherry on May 20, 2020 17:55:21 GMT
You really don't see the difference? The difference to what? That because I am not a writer, I cannot be trusted to exhibit any amount of critical thinking about any literary work ever? Maybe I want to criticize War and Peace, maybe I want to criticize Ulysses, maybe I want to criticize Mein Kampf. But apparently, I cannot be trusted to criticize anything, not even fucking Hitler, of all people, but rather I need to be told by approved others what to think. I've read 1984. Good book. Some people here should read it, too. If you don't like reading books, there's also a movie, with Richard Burton and John Hurt. At least, the one filmed in 1984 was and I've watched that one. More than that, you could also watch THX 1138, by George Lucas, since he did, in fact, make movies other than Star Wars and this is also in the same vein. So basically, a difference between people who "know absolutely nothing" and "aren't writers" exists, which can be proved by noticing that there are people who know something but aren't writers and thus belong to the latter set but not to the former. I don't know in which case I'm sadder for you: whether you didn't realize it or are on purpose dishonest once again. Now, about Hitler and Mein Kampf: yes, there is a set of (not even social but natural) prerequisites to criticizing its writing qualities and being specific about it. Not extensive but a typical 8 YO can only by accident articulate something more specific than "boring". That's a completely different dimension to what's required to judge its political agenda but that's not the topic since we're talking writing quality not politics in ME3. The actual statement was closer to "none of us can be trusted to vote unless we have completed education, earned money or raised a family", which may be ideologically unacceptable for some but not deprived of pragmaticism.
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"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 20, 2020 19:08:20 GMT
Sorry, must have been an article without correct information. I just Googled it and replied. Don't worry, I'm not sure myself. I always did remember her from the awesome class videos she did for Mass Effect 2. They were super exciting and really informative. I hope that wherever she's working she's doing the best and being the happiest
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Post by natetrace on May 20, 2020 19:10:51 GMT
I think this often comes back to does a book or movie or game or whatever belong to the fans or the writers and creators. I am almost always someone who sides with the creators and writers, rather than fans. If Bioware wants to continue with Andromeda and not rewrite the ending of 3 great! I agree with that direction. If they choose a different direction I might not agree with it but I am a fan and will support them. As a company, you're going to choose what makes you the most money, as profit is the end goal of all your content production efforts. You are free to experiment, you are free to innovate, but after a string of failures, a sure bet is better than an ambiguous bet and a follow up title to a bad title is less likely to succeed. Especially when that bad title has generated no interest to be succeeded by in your target audience. Yes, I get it, there is some interest here, but here isn't everywhere, the ones that didn't like the bad title are less likely to return for a sequel to it and there is no guarantee of interest being generated at a large enough number in the new entrants of the gaming community. In other words, your projected clientbase shrinkage is larger than your clientbase growth, thus creating an unviable product, before it is even produced. Maybe, but didn't your source claim they are making a loose sequel to Andromeda without Ryder? That's fine with me, but that seems like a risk then doesn't it? Or is it not the risk to create this loose sequel it's detractors would claim it is?
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 19:59:01 GMT
So basically, a difference between people who "know absolutely nothing" and "aren't writers" exists The implication is that I know nothing about the writing process, whereas Mac does, because he is a writer. Therefore, the argument becomes "you need to be a writer, if you are to criticize writing". You can frame it however you want, that is the implication. And as of yet, nobody has said otherwise. Even so, do you presume to speak on behalf of someone else? I have yet to see the person who wrote that, Highwayman667, say it isn't so. Just say "you misunderstood me" or "that's not what I meant". He, as well as Hanako Ikezawa, said that I shouldn't relate Mac Walters to Hitler, even though they are both writers. That is the argument being made. Thank you for your efforts. Maybe, but didn't your source claim they are making a loose sequel to Andromeda without Ryder? Indeed. That's fine with me, but that seems like a risk then doesn't it? Yes, it does. Or is it not the risk to create this loose sequel it's detractors would claim it is? You can be optimistic, internally, or, I don't know, deluded, I guess, enough to believe that this is a good move. That you can make this game and it will sell. It will sell gangbusters. I don't see the possibility of this happening. Maybe, if Bioware was in a good place right now, from all the aforementioned aspects and Andromeda was just a mediocre kick off to a new trilogy for the franchise, admittedly ME got its legs with 2, that Andromeda 2 would be the sequel the new trilogy needs, but at this point it's doubtful whether the gaming public needs another Mass Effect, or worse, even Bioware at all. And the honest answer to that right now is no, they don't need either. They could, just as well, be OK without DA4 even, as it has been 6 years since Inquisition already and a lot of people have just forgot about it. According to google trends, the Dragon Age franchise peeked with Origins and has since been in decline and while DA:I trended only slightly lower than DA2, is because it was well positioned in its release for the current gen, Bioware's brand carried more strength at the time and it had literally no competitor in the RPG genre, on new consoles. I'm really sorry to say this, but we, the people pretty much still bickering about an 8 year old game, whichever side of the argument you land on, are the people that still keep Bioware relevant, right now.
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Post by burningcherry on May 20, 2020 21:05:56 GMT
So basically, a difference between people who "know absolutely nothing" and "aren't writers" exists The implication is that I know nothing about the writing process, whereas Mac does, because he is a writer. Therefore, the argument becomes "you need to be a writer, if you are to criticize writing". You can frame it however you want, that is the implication. No. There's nothing about "being a writer", just having any basic understanding. Keep re-reading what was quoted to you in a bold font until you find this part. If you don't get the difference between criticizing writing quality and political message then you probably should not be debating on a forum because you're currently on UpUpAgain's level of obstruction with strawmen and lack of comprehension while reading.
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Post by SirSourpuss on May 20, 2020 21:33:07 GMT
No. There's nothing about "being a writer", just having any basic understanding. Bruh, basic understand? Is ... is this really the angle we're going for? Anyone who has ever written an essay has a basic understanding of writing, because all writing adheres, in structure, to some very basic principles. Since the 1st grade, I had to write for years an essay for the first two periods of every Friday morning, in school. So, to answer the question, yeah, I graduated 1st grade, therefore I am qualified. Like, this is such a non-argument, that I'd rather take the logical fallacy. Tell me that Highwayman667 did not mean it that way. If you don't get the difference between criticizing writing quality and political message You can criticize the writing quality of anything and everything, that includes political messages. This is another non argument. you're currently on UpUpAgain's level of obstruction with strawmen and lack of comprehension while reading Brother, I think you have that backwards.
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Post by smilesja on May 21, 2020 1:58:43 GMT
First of all, false equivalence. You don't need to be a published writer to criticize a literary work. Even so, I've had shit published, I'm not a writer. Am I equipped to criticize? Otherwise, you've just made a very short list of people that can even be allowed to make an argument about the logical fallacies in the game's plot. Scratch that, not only in this game's plot, but in every work ever. Would you say I can't criticize ... Mein Kampf? You can't criticize Hitler, of all fucking people, you're not a published writer. That's ridiculous! I'm gonna criticize that asshole all I fucking want, because he was a fucking cunt of such magnitude that calling him a cunt, is an insult to cunts. But apparently, I am not allowed to. Great point, Highwayman667 , someone should write a defense for Hitler, might as well be you. It's not contradictory, nor toxic. Some times, you reap what you sow. Pun not intended. Are you seriously bringing up Hitler in a discussion about a videogame ? And here I thought comparing writers to the cooks at Wendy's was bad enough For some Video Games are serious business, I mean for a while it was considered illegal to criticize The Witcher 3 or praise Andromeda.
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N3
"In uncertainty, find infinite possibility"
Games: Mass Effect Trilogy, Dragon Age: Origins, Dragon Age 2, Dragon Age Inquisition, KOTOR, Baldur's Gate, Neverwinter Nights, Jade Empire
Posts: 522 Likes: 724
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Post by Highwayman667 on May 21, 2020 2:35:48 GMT
For some Video Games are serious business, I mean for a while it was considered illegal to criticize The Witcher 3 or praise Andromeda. WHAT ? Since when is it legal to criticize Witcher 3 ?
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Post by smilesja on May 21, 2020 4:41:30 GMT
For some Video Games are serious business, I mean for a while it was considered illegal to criticize The Witcher 3 or praise Andromeda. WHAT ? Since when is it legal to criticize Witcher 3 ? It's just judging by way certain Witcher superfans react if you dare share a critique on the Witcher 3.
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Post by burningcherry on May 21, 2020 13:25:41 GMT
No. There's nothing about "being a writer", just having any basic understanding. Bruh, basic understand? Is ... is this really the angle we're going for? Anyone who has ever written an essay has a basic understanding of writing, because all writing adheres, in structure, to some very basic principles. Since the 1st grade, I had to write for years an essay for the first two periods of every Friday morning, in school. So, to answer the question, yeah, I graduated 1st grade, therefore I am qualified. Like, this is such a non-argument, that I'd rather take the logical fallacy. Tell me that Highwayman667 did not mean it that way. I believe that what he meant was not the basic understanding of how to construct sentences required form 1st graders but how a collaborative work on an interactive medium goes. I didn't read the last few pages but I suppose it was possible that someone showed a lack of understanding of it. Regardless, your Hitler analogy is invalid. Not really. Most obvious if you consider coding.
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